Dr. Shrikaanth K Murthy

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Apr 2006, 03:00

You are correct, Shrikaanth.
Ravi

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Apr 2006, 03:31

bAlakAndam contd....
Ahalya shApvimOchanam contd...
vanamAlA jIyar:
gautama kAnta nija rUpAvara

swAti tiruNAL:
ahalyA shAp vimOchana asurakula bhanjanA

shivadhanurbhangam:

Arunachala Kavi:
vishvAmitra introduces rAmA to janaka mahArAjA thus:

ivanai yArenRu eNNAmalE nALLum, ivan adisayaNgaLai solla kEllum
sUrAdi sUran, raghu rAman ennum pEran
suguNa dhIran, ravikula kumAran....

and then goes on to say:

ungaL parutta vil ivan kaiyikku pOdumO pOdAdO parkkavEnDum enrOr Asai
ingE vara shonnAllum vara kidaikkumO varivilE
vandAnE nIngal sheida pUjai

And when rAma breaks the bow in two: AK says,

kattipidi idaiyAl janaki eNNam niraivEra
villAnadu renDAi oDindu vizhundadE pAril.

The vanamAlA jIyar:
mahita mahEshwara chApa daLanakara
mithilA tanaya kara mAlA dhara

Shrikaanth is very sweetly succint:
gaurISa dhanuSa caTa khaTa paTa aNa moricavu~n!
sIra dhanya sItaya tA~n varicavu~n!

BTW, AFAIK, both in vAlmIki rAmAyaNa as well as in AK rAmanAtakam, while rAmA's physical perfection is described everwhere, sItA's beauty is refered to in bAlakAndam, but fully described ONLY through the lascivious eyes of rAvaNA...Is that correct?
Ravi

Shrikaanth,
Were these the kind of discussion you were hoping for when you requested it? I hope I am not going overboard...I can't help it..it is afterall a favorite pastime of mine...comparing versions of the epic.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 03:48

Keep going Ravi. You are doing a fine job. I wish I had my kannaDa texts with me so I could quote from them

Lets us also look at contexts and interpretations.
Here is one stanza from sri vAdirAja`s dEvaranAma entha pAvana pAdavO

halavu kAlagaLindali mArgadi
Sile Sapa paDediralu
olidu rajadi pAvana gaidu karuNadinda-
(a)baleya mADi salahida Srihariyu ||1||

By the way, you are correct about SatAnanda being the son of ahalye and gautama.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 26 Apr 2006, 05:04

Here are some lines from Bhadrachala Ramadasu..

mauni yAgamu gAci shilanu maguva jEsi janaku niNTa
shivuni villu viraci minci sItanu cEkonna svAmi

I visited the Golconda Fort in HYD (n # of times) where BR was imprisoned for 12 years in a dark room with a small ventilation. A chilling experience everytime I visit

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Apr 2006, 06:08

DRS

I am trying to reconcile sanketi with Tamil to be able to understand the language. Pity, I am unable to decode the vibhaktis!

Now that we are in a mood for stories. Here is what is in bhAgavata (navamaskandha).

shuka narrates the genealogy of the solar line of kings from ikShvAku. His son was king nimi who started a sacrifice and asked sage vasiShTha to officiate. Due to prior commitment to Indra he asked him to wait for his return. . Nimi kept quiet but commenced the sacrifice since time was passing and after a long wait concluded the sacrifice. When vasiShTha returned he was furious and cursed nimi
(ashapat 'patatAt dEhaH nimEH paNDitamAninaH')
"Let the body of Nimi who considers himself a scholar fall"
Thus angered nimi pronounced a counter curse (
tavApi patatAt dEhO lobhAt dharmam ajAnataH)
"Let your body also fall because you did not know dharma due to greed"

True to the curse both of them died. But vasiShTha was reincarnated through mitra and varuNa through Urvashi. (hence he was actally a daasiputra!). They tried to revive nimi too but his spirit cried out
(mA bhUt mE dEhabandanam)
"Let me not be imprisoned in a body!"
In deference to his wish
vidEha uShyatAM kAmaM lOcanEShu sharIriNAM|
unmESHaNa nimEShAbhyAM lakShitO (a)dhyAtma samsthitaH||("without a body may you reside at will in the eyes of all embodied souls". (nimi) is indicated by the opening and closing of eyes of every Self).
Thus everytime we open and shut the eye our jIvAtma is seeing the world through Nimi! In fact the shutting and opening of the eyes is called 'nimIlanam' in Sanskrit.

Since the Royal line should not be lost they churned the dead body of Nimi from which was born a son named janaka (janayatE iti janaka). Since he was born of churning (mathanaM) he was also called 'mithila' which was also the name of the city he built. He was the great ancestor of Janaka the 'father' of sItA.

Twenty generations later was born king Janaka who furrowed a field with a plough (sIra) for a sacrifice (putrkAmEShThi) to have a son and found a girl child in a box and since she was gotten from the furrow (sItA) she was named sItA.

sItA sIrA agratO jAtA tasmAt sIradhvajaH sm^RitaH(Since sItA was gotten from the plough the king Janka again got the name sIradhvajaH (sirENa (by the plough) dhvajaH (one who became famous). Of course he was sIradhvaja because of having the plough for his flag (dhvaja).(observe the beauty of sanskrit word formation!).

Ironically Janaka performed a sacrifice all by himself (cf nimi) with the blessings of yag~nyavaalkya since no priest was scholarly enough and hence he became a rAjariShi(brahminking). In fact vyAsa sent his son shuka to Janaka to learn abstract vedic secrets and interpretations (source: yOga vAsiShTha)
(shankar note that kushdhvaja was the son of Janaka and not his brother!)

We are almost doing a harikatha here with quotes from puranas and other languages. Please 'shout' if these long-winded posts are distracting!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Apr 2006, 06:40

Suji Ram,
I was struggling to remember the words of rAmadAsa...all I could remember were 'adrija vinutudu, bhadragirIshudu'!
I am in total awe of composers like DRS who, with a few deftly chosen words can really set in motion a whole panorama of scenes:
For example, the following 6 words conjure up such a vivid picture that it is unbelievable:
janakasutA hrit ramaNa
jamadagnijA mada haraNa

To me, the scenes are sItAswayamvaram, the divine wedding, and the subduing of parashurAmA's ego....
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 06:44

-----(shankar note that kushdhvaja was the son of Janaka and not his brother!)

We are almost doing a harikatha here with quotes from puranas and other languages. Please 'shout' if these long-winded posts are distracting!

While the bhAgavata verse I have quoted says kuSadhvaja is the son, in the rAmAyana itself, kuSadhvaja is named as janaka`s brother. (bAlakANDa, Canto 70, verse 2). Janaka summons his attendants to fetch his brother kuSadhvaja anon for the marriage of sItA and rAma.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Apr 2006, 06:47

[quote=""drshrikaanth""]

-----(shankar note that kushdhvaja was the son of Janaka and not his brother!)
While the bhAgavata verse I have quoted says kuSadhvaja is the son, in the rAmAyana itself, kuSadhvaja is named as janaka`s brother. (bAlakANDa, Canto 70, verse 2). Janaka summons his attendants to fetch his brother kuSadhvaja anon for the marriage of sItA and rAma.

[/quote]

And his daughters, mAndavi and shrutakIrti are married to bharata and shatruGNA respectively.
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 07:11

Suji Ram
Thanks for posting the words of bhadrAcala rAmadAsu.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 07:17

Story of bAlakANDa- part 1

rAma is born to king daSaratha of the clan of sUrya/ikShvAku after observing strict austerities and performing the putrakAmEShTi. rAma is born to kausalya. He has 3 younger brothers- bharata born to kaikEyi and the twins lakShmaNa and Satughna begotten by sumitra. rAma is the apple of everyone`s eye- noble, brave, kind and righteous. He is beloved to his peers, elders and younger ones alike. His brothers worship him.

While rAma is yet an adolescent, Sage viSvAmitra arrives and explains that his austerities were being constantly disturbed by the rAkShasas, particularly so by the brothers mArIca and subAhu. He then asks for rAma to be sent along with him to provide protection to him and his associate sages from these rowdy and vile rAKShasas.

daSaratha is loath to send rAma and pleads with the sage that rAma was still tender of age and that he would himself take his armies and accompany the sage to provide protection. In vain! This only draws the ire of the viSwAmitra who is renowned for his anger.

In the end, upon the advice of his family priest vaSiShTha and being conscious of the fact a learned brAhmaNa, especially a sage, should not be sent away without honouring his wish, daSaratha sends rAma away with a heavy heart. As the brothers rAma and lakShmaNa are inseparable, lakShmaNa follows rAma.

On their way, viSwAmitra narrates to the brothers varoius events and stories of virtuous and valourous men and deeds. He also imparts the bala and atibala mantras and bestows the secrets of various weapons
and missiles to rAma who in turn imparts the same to his dear brother lakShmaNa.

Even as they set out, rAma slays a yakShiNi turned demoness by name tATaki(tATakA). The sages sit down to perform their austerities in siddhASrama. Even as they are performing, mArIca and subAhu arrive on the scene with their hordes and begin disturbing the proceedngs. rAma and lakShmaNa form the defences and in the battle, rAma kills subAhu while he throws mArIca, the son of tATaki to a distance of a 100 yOjanas into the sea. Between them, the brothers decimate the rAkShasa hordes. mArica manages to survive.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 07:45

Story of bAlakANDa- part2

viSwAmitra then tells rAma of janaka, the great king of mithilA, and the bow of Siva. He takes the brothers along with him to mithilA ostensibly to see the bow. janaka is a righteous king. By dint of his virtue, he was acclaimed as a saint among kings(rAjaRShi).

He too, like daSarataha, had no children for a long time. Desirous of begetting a son, he prepares to perform austerities. In preparation for the sacrifice, he ploughs the land whereupon the end of the plough hits upon a box. On opening the box, wonder of wonders! Resting in it is a beautiful infant girl. janaka understands that this girl is a divine gift and considers himeslf blessed. As she was found ina furrow when ploughing, he names her sIta and showers all love and affection on her. As rAma is in ayOdhya, here sIta is the apple of everyone`s eye in mithila.

Now this bow of ISvara was entrusted to janaka`s forebears for safekeeping. Once sitA is playing ball with her friends as a child. The ball happens to roll under the box in which this great bow is kept. sIta wantonly pushes the box to one side with her left hand and retrieves the ball. janaka, who happens to watch this is awed by her strength, delighted at having her as his daughter and concerned about finding a suitable groom for her.

He sets a condition that whosoever wishes to win the hand of sIta should first string this bow. Many wer the kings who came haughtily and bit the dust attempting to string the bow. They do not manage to even budge the bow. rAvaNa, the king of lankA is also among these who failed and left bitterly.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Apr 2006, 10:17

Story of bAlakANDa- part2

Now this bow of ISvara was entrusted to janaka`s forebears for safekeeping. Once sitA is playing ball with her friends as a child. The ball happens to roll under the box in which this great bow is kept. sIta wantonly pushes the box to one side with her left hand and retrieves the ball. janaka, who happens to watch this is awed by her strength, delighted at having her as his daughter and concerned about finding a suitable groom for her.

.

Not according to Valmiki Ramayana. These are stories told differently in different sources

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 17:08

Not according to Valmiki Ramayana. These are stories told differently in different sources

CML- I am aware that the ball episode is not narrated in the vAlmIki rAmAyaNa. The entrusting of the bow is however very much there. I skimmed thtorugh the whole of bAlakANDa yesterday.

Also, janaka`s anguish about finding a suitable groom for sItA who is able to wield the bow is also very much there.
I just could not resist writing the greatness of sItA. That is a story I have heard since childhood and so is good enough for me. Let no one doubt the greatness and power of sItA, as there are ample instances in the rAmAyaNa that illustrate it.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 17:15

Stroy of bAlakANDa- part 3

En route to mithila, viSwAmitra and the borthers go to the Asrama of sage gautama, the sad happenings of which, the sage tells the brothers. Cursed by her husband for having been unchaste and dallying with indra, ahalye, wife of gautama had turned into stone and remained in the ASrama doing penance for a very long time. As had been ordained, she is redeemed of her curse as soon as rAma sets foot on the ASrama.

After accepting the Atithya(guest treatment) from ahalye and gautama, they make their way to mithilA. After introductions, they retire for the night. On the morrow, they go to the palace where viSwAmitra requests janaka to show the Sivadhanussu to rAma. janaka expresses his doubts
about a mere mortal man`s ability to wield this bow. As 5000 well-built men roll in with difficulty, the box with the bow, viSwAmitra asks rAma to behold the bow.(vatsa rAma dhanuS paSya).

rAma seeks permission of the king and the blessings of his guru viSwamitra and goes on to gently touch the bow, as if fondling it and gauging its strength at the same time. And lo and behold! Much to the amazement of everyone present, he wields the bow! And as he is in the act of stringing the bow, what is more, the bow cracks asunder and is split twain making a thunderous and deafening uproar that causes even the earth to tremble as if due to an earthquake. janaka is delighted at finding such a qualified suitor for the hand of sItA.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 17:20

Story of bAlakANDa- Part 4

janaka relays the happy tidings to daSaratha through viSwAmitra. The mighty daSaratha is mighty pleased and arrives in mithila with his retinue in 4 days. The marriae ceremonies take place wherein sIta is wedded to rAma while her sister UrmiLa is married to lakShmaNa. janaka`s brother
kuSadhavaja`s 2 daughters mANDavi and SrutakIrti are married to bharata and Satrughna respectively.

The party are set forth on their return journey to ayOdhyA in a mood of celebration. On the way, the sky suddenly darkens and the group is shrouded by dust while their minds are gripped by fear. The sages and rAma remain unflinching. Arrives paraSurAma, the son of jamadagni who had vowed to wipe out the kShatriya race to avenge the death of his unarmed father at the hands of a kShatriya.

paraSurAma challenges rAma to first string the bow of viShNu he has brought and then to a duel. daSaratha pleads with paraSurAma in vain. Angered by paraSurAma`s arrogance, rAma declares that he himself
is no mean warrior and goes on to string the bow and place an arrow on the string. Having thus placed an arrow, rAma declares that he will have to discharge this arrow which is capable of taking paraSurAma`s life. But he lets paraSurAma depart after taking possession of all his lands
by discharging the arrow.

ayOdhyA is jubiliant. The newly weds bask in mutual respect and unbounded love. rAma is delighted at having the beautiful,loving and capable sItA as his wife. sItA in turn revels in the handsomeness, valour and love of rAma. bharata and Satrughna leave for kEkaya to accept hospitalities and festivities from yudhajit, the maternal uncle of bharata.

End of bAlakANDa

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Apr 2006, 18:52

Since the Royal line should not be lost they churned the dead body of Nimi from which was born a son named janaka (janayatE iti janaka). Since he was born of churning (mathanaM) he was also called 'mithila' which was also the name of the city he built. He was the great ancestor of Janaka the 'father' of sItA

Thanks DRS for that piece of information. Now, I understand why sItA is referred to as 'nimInAm kuladIpikA' (if this were a comic strip, there'd be a lit bulb above my head as I read the piece you posted).

The most moving part of the bAlakAndam to me is the divine wedding - janaka's words as he gives sItA away:

iyam sItA mama sutA
sahadharma charI tavA
pratIchcha cha Enam bhadrantE
paNim griNhIsva pANinAm
pativratA mahAbhAgA
chAyA iva anugatA sadA

He not only gives her away, but appears to foretell several of the future events: i.e. that she would follow rAma to the forrest like a shadow, she would be pativratA...
DRS/CML: can you translate the verse word for word?

CML/DRS:
What does 'kanda malai' in reference to sItA mean?
One of the kalyANa pATTu that I have heard in our family weddings goes: 'kandar malai mIdurayum kattazhagi sIthai, indumukhi mythilI, srI rAman magizh kOdai'
And, AK, in the wedding scenes, when he describes sItA's entry into the marriage hall (annai jAnakI vandALE, rajAdi rAjar anaivarkkum kAtshi tandALE) describes how even as she hangs her head shyly and with propriety, she does manage to look at him: 'kandar malai kai vaLai jyOtiyinAlE, renDu kadaikkaNNinAlE rAman vaDivam kaNdukkonDu'.

Also, AK's version of rAma parashurAma vAkvivAdam is full of wry humor and fertile imagination - 'maNNinil arasanaipOl kANugirAyE, AshIrvAdam raghurAmA'. (Will make for a great piece for bharatanatyam - Mohan take note!

)
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 26 Apr 2006, 19:38

----
The most moving part of the bAlakAndam to me is the divine wedding - janaka's words as he gives sItA away:

iyam sItA mama sutA
sahadharma charI tavA
pratIchcha cha Enam bhadrantE
paNim griNhIsva pANinAm
pativratA mahAbhAgA
chAyA iva anugatA sadA

He not only gives her away, but appears to foretell several of the future events: i.e. that she would follow rAma to the forrest like a shadow, she would be pativratA...
DRS/CML: can you translate the verse word for word?--

iyam- this; sItA; mama- my; sutA- daughter;
sahadharmacharI- partner in your righteous endeavours; tavA- your;
pratIccha ca Enam- may you accept her; bhadramtE- auspiciousness be with you(may you be blessed);
pANim- hand; grihNISa- take; pANinAm- in yor hands;
pativratA- chaste and ever loyal to her husband; mahAbhAgA- blessed and lucky one;
chAyA- shadow; iva- like; anugatA- will follow you; sadA- always.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Apr 2006, 20:30

'kandar malai mIdurayum kattazhagi sIthai, indumukhi mythilI, srI rAman magizh kOdai'
Shankar
AFAIK it is sung in kurinji as 'kandha malar...' meaning sweet-scented (sugandha). Very nice wedding song, I love. Sudha has sung the whole set of wedding songs nicely!

Now that all sorts of anecdotes (not authenticated by Valmiki Ramayana) are being discussed; here are some interesting tidbits.
In one of the versions 'kushadvaja was the borther of kaikeyi (perhaps different from yudhajit!) whose two daughters were married to Bharata and shatrugna. In other words they marry their uncle's daughters.

'kanda maalai' in the case of Rama has a nice 'story' too. Sani requested Rama that he had to cause some harm to him (according to Rama's jaataka he had baalariShTam!). Rama permitted him to cause himself a skin infection (thEmal in Tamil) that formed a beautiful pale white garland around his neck (remember Rama was dark 'karumugil' as DRS describes!). Hence kanda maalai is used as a paribhASha for the thEmal infection expecially in the neck area...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Apr 2006, 21:10

Thanks CML, for both those meanings/interpretations!
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:12

rAma follows viSwAmitra and does whatever he is asked by the sage as commanded by his father. His obedience to his father, respect towards elders and sages, resolve to detroy evil and protect righteousness and his prowess are highlighted in the episode of vanquishing mArIca and subAhu.

rAma`s compassion and his divine nature is revealed in the redemption of ahalyA`s curse and in the breaking of Siva`s bow. It must be noted here that unlike other suitors who were haughty. rAma approaches the bow with modesty, seeks the blessings of his guru and permission of janaka and the breaks the bow. Here he dispalys not pride but quiet confidence in himself. This episode along with "mArIca subAhu" episode is also of strategic importance in the context of rAma marrying sItA. As rAvaNa had failed to even budge the bow, his pride of course could not take it that a mere man(hulu mAnava as they say in kannaDa) could do it.

The marriage of sItA and rAma was pre-ordained In this case, marriage was certainly made in heaven! The birth of rAma and sItA and their marriage had a divine purpose.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:16

Some lines from an Annamacharya kirtana

"Ahalya Saapa Vimochana Asurakula Bhanjana Shaja viswamithra Samara rakshakaa

Hara Kodanda hara Seethanganaa Vallabhaa"

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:19

I remember from watching the televised episodes of rAmAyanA, in which they show sItA seeing rAmA probably in the garden well before the swayamvaram...what do the purAnAs say?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:36

I remember from watching the televised episodes of rAmAyanA, in which they show sItA seeing rAmA probably in the garden well before the swayamvaram...what do the purAnAs say?

The vAlmIki rAmAyaNa does not explicitly mention it although at the end of the bAlakANDa, one of the verses can be interpreted to hint at this. But the other rAmAYaNas dwell on this as it gives ample scope for imagination as well as abhinaya.(rasa sandarbha)

kamban says "aNNalum nOkkinAn avaLum nOkkinAL" as also the beautiful AK song "yArO ivar yArO enna pErO ariyEne"

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:39

Well,
I Molla Ramayana Sita sees Raama before the Swayamvaram and prays to Kaathyayani devi to give Raama all the strength to break the Pinaka. Also, she being preoccupied with thoughts filled with Raama she hurts the forehead of Arundathi(I cant remember who it actually was) while giving her Kumkum which results in Arundhati cursing Seetha saying tha she will be away from Raama for long time...

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:40

Kiran,
Aren't those from Annamacharya's namO namO raghukulanAyakA?
DRS,
The story of the swayamara are told differently in the various versions of the epic:
I think in kambarAmAyaNam, after the chApa bhangam, rAmA accepts the varmAlA from sItA, but in Valmiki rAmAyaNA, doesn't he say that he will accept the varmAlA only if his father approves the match?

Along those lines, the famous 'aNNalum nOkkinAn, avaLum nOkkinAL' is peculiar to kamban's version.

Also, some of my friends and I had a discussion recently about AK's, yArO ivar yArO (which not surprisingly, follows kamban): I remember listening to a vyAkyAnam by Kripananda Warrier (see the Chembai topic in the Vidwans thread for a pic) where he interpretted the song as sung by sItA when she sees rAma for the first time. My friend however, felt that it was rAmA who sings this when he sees sItA in front of the kanni mAdam. Any clues/additional info will be appreciated.
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:40

Some lines from an Annamacharya kirtana

"Ahalya Saapa Vimochana Asurakula Bhanjana Shaja viswamithra Samara rakshakaa

Hara Kodanda hara Seethanganaa Vallabhaa"

The lyrics are not quite right. "samara rakShaka" does not make sense as also "Shaja". Please check.

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:46

Apologies for the typos.
Its should be read as "sahaja viShvAmitra Shamana rakshaka"

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:46

DRS
Apologies for the typo...
It is "sahaja viShvAmitra Shamana rakshaka"

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:51

DRS,
The story of the swayamara are told differently in the various versions of the epic:
I think in kambarAmAyaNam, after the chApa bhangam, rAmA accepts the varmAlA from sItA, but in Valmiki rAmAyaNA, doesn't he say that he will accept the varmAlA only if his father approves the match?

Nope. this is not seen in the vAlmIki rAmAyaNa. No coversations of this tenor take place between janaka and rAma. Imediately following the dhanurbhanjana, janaka requests viSwAmitra to relate the news to daSaratha, make him accept the offer of marriage and to come with his retinue.

Along those lines, the famous 'aNNalum nOkkinAn, avaLum nOkkinAL' is peculiar to kamban's version.

Also, some of my friends and I had a discussion recently about AK, yArO ivar yArO (which not surprisingly, follows kamban): I remember listening to a vyAkyAnam by Kripananda Warrier (see the Chembai topic in the Vidwans thread for a pic) where he interpretted the song as sung by sItA when she sees rAma for thr fist time. My friend however, felt that it was rAmA who sings this when he sees sItA in front of the kanni mAdam. Any clues/additional info will be appreciated.
Ravi

Looks like 3 of us posted at the same time.

I too have always believed that it was sita`s feelings that are conveyed in the song. I have heard the contrary interpretation as well but that doesnt fit very well.

The song is like a pada and almost always, it is the lady that longs for the nAyaka. The endings of "ivar, -ar" rather than -aL are more suited for addressing a man than a woman(especially as it is rAma). Also, in that state of mind, rAma would not be swayed so much as to be constantly longiing for her and worrying about it.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:54

DRS,
Those were my reasons too to infer that sItA was the protagonist in that composition.
Ravi

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:57

DRS
Apologies for the typo...
It is "sahaja viShvAmitra Shamana rakshaka"

I think it should be "savana rakShaka"

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 27 Apr 2006, 00:59

Makes sense.,.....

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:17

Now let me pose a question. What are the different types of mudre you can find in the 1st khaNDa? Please answer this question for each khaNDa as I post them one by one.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:19

Kiran.

Also, some of my friends and I had a discussion recently about AK's, yArO ivar yArO (which not surprisingly, follows kamban): I remember listening to a vyAkyAnam by Kripananda Warrier (see the Chembai topic in the Vidwans thread for a pic) where he interpretted the song as sung by sItA when she sees rAma for the first time. My friend however, felt that it was rAmA who sings this when he sees sItA in front of the kanni mAdam. Any clues/additional info will be appreciated.
Ravi

Thanks DRS, Kiransurya and rshankar for the information.

As for the song yArO ivar yArO,
could it be that both sItA and rAmA are conveying their thoughts in this song alternatively in different charanams. This song has 3 charanams.

http://www.chennaionline.com/music/Tham ... song26.asp

MSS has sung only the last charanam and hence sounds it is sItA's feelings.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:20

DRS

You pulled the words out of my mouth. It has to be 'savana'.

Also I have not seen a reference to RavaNa trying to bend the bow of Siva. That too must be folklore! In fact the dramatist (late) Manohar in his drama 'ilankEshvaran' portrays sIta as his daughter (based on anada ramayanam?) and the episodes are quite interesting. According to 'indonesian Ramayana' sIta was the sister of Rama.

Kamban does deviate a lot from valmiki. The male/female controversy on 'yaro ivar yArO..' raged for a while at sangeetham with no winners. Interestingly AK set the raga as Saveri but MS made it famous in bhairavi. Now sowmya is singing it in sAveri as also TNS.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:24

Thanks suji ram. You may well be right! The first caraNa can certainly not apply to rAma.

The 2nd caraNa does appear to be all about rAma. While the 3rd caraNa can refer to both. Now thats a new interpretation

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:28

I am glad suji you referred to the actual lyrics.
The first is

paNNippathiththaal pOl iru sthannamum kUda
paangiyar inamum thuraiththanamum
eNNththaalum vaNNaththaalum pangaya
peNNaippOl kaNNil kaaNum mangayar
(yArO ivar yArO)..

There is no doubt it is Rama singing!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:28

Suji Ram,
The second and third seem to refer to a male (so sItA must be the protagonist there)...now the first: that is tough...I hope CML will translate this:
paNNip padittArppOl iru stanamum kUDa pAngiyargaL
inna mutturaittanamum
eNNattAlum vaNNattAlum pangaiyap peNNaippOl
kaNNirk kANum mangaiyar

CML,
Was MSS the first to sing it? I remember my mother telling me that DKP's version was SUPERB - that was in bhairavI too, and involved the last charaNam as well. It was the same charaNam that my cousin danced to in a rAmAyaNa ballet many years ago...
Suji Ram,
nityasree sings the second and third charaNam in her version of ArO ivar ArO (not yArO, ivar yArO)...she also mispronounces kannimAdm as kannimadam (that would literally mean a nunnery, right?)....
Ravi

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:30

maTTi yAgu bharicavu~n

In that sentence you quoted tala name. So thats the taala mudra Matya

dhanyA | sItaya tA~

In the above sentence you hav included raaga mudra as Dhanyasi..

Thats all I can see for now...

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:33

dA SrI rAmacandru varaNA

You have included both raaga(Sri) and Taala(druva)

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:34

Kiran,
You beat me to it..
DRS,
in bAlakAndam
matya tALam
dhanyAsi rAgam

Ravi

kiransurya · Post by **kiransurya** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:36

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:37

DRS

I don't get the point. You have boldened the raga and tALa mudras in the lyric. Are we myopic?

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:38

DRS,
you already highlighted the mudrE when you posted the lyrics...
may be there is something else hidden??
CML, I would appreciate word to word meaning of rshankar's request...
I am learning Tamizh here..

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:40

Shankar

DKP did sing it in Bhairavi and your mom is right. But I am not sure who did it first!
Who has choreographed the dance piece?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:49

DRS

I don't get the point. You have boldened the raga and tALa mudras in the lyric. Are we myopic?

Mea culpa. But I was not looking for the obvious. Apart from these 2 mudres, do you find any other mudres in the 1st khaNDa(Now thats a hint).?

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:53

-----
The second and third seem to refer to a male (so sItA must be the protagonist there)...now the first: that is tough...I hope CML will translate this:
paNNip padittArppOl iru stanamum kUDa pAngiyargaL
inna mutturaittanamum
eNNattAlum vaNNattAlum pangaiyap peNNaippOl
kaNNirk kANum mangaiyar--

Ravi. This clearly has reference to the female anatomy which is why I said it cannot be about rAma.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:53

people listen to DRS lecdem,,, there should be more

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:55

paNNippathiththaal = made and fixed
pOl = like
iru sthannamum = two breasts
(the two breats look like as though they were fashioned and fixed)
kUda = along
paangiyar inamum = friend species
thuraiththanamum = lordlinee
(?accompanied by host of female friends and lordly (overbearing) looks)
eNNththaalum = By thought
vaNNaththaalum = by colour
pangaya = lotus
peNNaippOl = like a woman
kaNNil kaaNum = appears in the eyes
mangayar = woman (repectfully addressed)
(by thought and colour(make-up) like a lotus appearing for sight (this) woman
(yArO ivar yArO)=Who is this?
..

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Apr 2006, 01:59

-----
pangaya = lotus
peNNaippOl = like a woman
kaNNil kaaNum = appears in the eyes
mangayar = woman (repectfully addressed)
(by thought and colour(make-up) like a lotus appearing for sight (this) woman
(yArO ivar yArO)=Who is this?
..

pangayappeN is mahAlakShmi Lotus maiden(malarmagaL). sItA is compared to lakShmI in her beauty. It is also a veiled refernece to her divinity.