swaragnana in a short time?

[ganesh_mourthy]

I am wondering if all of you go through the same phase that I passed through to get a reasonable swaragnana. What I am asking is , Is it always a tedious and slow process. You may be able to play a raaga on your own slowly but when you have to repeat what others do with the appropriate gamakams, it is a tough process. It is even tough for a violinist. singers to some extent do it even without knowing the swara gnana since I have observed people repeating even some tough phrases even not knowing the raaga or the notes in it. but not possible for an instrumentalist. What woudl you suggest to get a quick swara gnana.

It is a wacky question though ,knowing the fact that you should allow some time and that answers by itself. But still that phase of time woudl be sometimes fustrating when you want to decipher the swaras of a song or a krithi instantly. I have friends learning and when I tell them that you would get it over a period of time they seem to be obsessed with it . What are the techniques and practices to get the swaragnana quickly? some inputs woudl be appreciated.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Since there are no inputs for a long time ( or rather not worth discussing???!!!!) let me write somethng. As far as me any amount of practice alone woudl not help. You need to repeat someone doing and help you out instantly preferably someone like your guru. there is a difference between you throw the ball and you catch it and someone throw at you for you to catch. The same way it is your mind telling to do a phrase and you do it easily wheras repeating instantly someone is a better way I think and a bit tough too but you get it over time.,

This is one thing I learnt . any thing else?

[VK RAMAN]

listening other sing repeatedly and sing along will be one of the first step while continuing to learn from Guru in my IMHO.

[cmlover]

First of all you should develop a solid shruti gnaanam. This is done with the help of a harmonium or keyboard. Once you are attuned to the notes, practise the 'akaara' saathakam. That is use the vowels to sing the notes. Good training on the saraLi varisai, alankaarams and thaattu, jaNDa svarams with akaaram will solidify the svara gnaanam. Now youshoudl learn the aro/avaro of the ragas and practice the various combinations of patterns in svaras as well as akaaraas. Learniing the varnams in the raga will also be useful. Listen to good singers performing the kritis in the raga and try to emulate them keeping the ear attuned to the svaras rather than the sahitya. The rest will follow naturally. This should take about an year to two years with regular practice. There is no easy road to learning CM

[vasanthakokilam]

It is in interested topic ganesh_mourthy. I have been battling this for quite a while myself.

Here is one thing that sort of works. A strategy of divide and conquer.

Initially do not focus on getting the individual notes. Assign the notes to one of the four quadrants
a) Low GA to SA
b) SA to PA
c) PA to high SA
d) High SA to high PA

The fundamental requirement is to latch on to SA, PA, SA ( or more specifically low PA, SA, PA, high SA and high PA ).

Then start putting swaras into these four buckets. Initially there will be some errors in the border cases which will be ironed out.
Once you get a good handle, then concentrate on each bucket. Is the swara close to SA or close to PA. That gives you sub-quadrant allocation.
Once this is mastered, then you can focus on disambigurating the two swaras of the sub-quadrant.

Of course, stating all this is easy..And I have done the easy part

Please note that this is not a recommendation from any music professional or Guru. This is my own and take it as a 'dabbler method'.

[cmlover]

Well done VK!
I can vouch for this VK Algorithm as one who has benefitted from it!

[PUNARVASU]

VK,
that was nicely put; worth giving a try.

[violinrasika]

I was thinking more on the lines of intervals than absolute freq since sa is a variable. have a midi file or use Scala that plays various intervals like sa-ri,sa-ga, sa-pa... ri-ga, ri-ma or for that matter even start with lower octave ga to higer octave pa. One caveat would be use diff ragas as a reference like sankarabharanam or kalyani or mayamalavagowla to start with. Of course you have ragas like vasantha also.

As far as zoning on sa or pa tail end of a stanza in a sahityam will give away(mostly)... added to that have a beat set to 60 or 70 bpm so that rhythm is taken care.

Of course the standard disclaimer (my own dabbler method). Also please do point out any mistake.

gV

[arasi]

The 'so called' dabblers know quite a bit. Also, they come in different varieties. The scientist kind in particular. After reading through what they have to say, pick the pointers which interest you and try them out. You may find a favorite. What's more, you may move on to one of your own little tricks as you explore the svaraA patterns more.

As you sing (play) more and more and do so innumerable times (practise!), you don't have to chase the patterns anymore. While you are at it, you would see the patterns emerging right there for you to recognize as you sing (play). Now, the question: which came first? The egg or the chick?

[ganesh_mourthy]

so , Arasi passed through the learning phase I guess.

[beginner]

yes, none fails to pass thru the learning phase... learning has built-in 'earning'

[ganesh_mourthy]

it is very inportant i feel that a person with an inclination to music to have some knowledge of notes to appreciate the art form completely. It elevates the listening experience and helps in progressing.

[bilahari]

I, too, can attest to VK's quadrant analysis. If you can identify the quadrant, and that itself is difficult when you don't have a strong tambura or shruti drone in the background, and have a reasonable idea about the important phrases in the raga being sung/played, you can do well in guessing the swara. MDR is a good person to practise swara gnanam since he frequently sings sa-pa-sa phrases in alapanai and almost always ends his alapanai with a pa-sa.

[arasi]

G_M,
I am still learning, and not having entered a competition to test my skills yet, I cannot say I have come out in flying colors!

[mohan]

As cmlover mentioned learning varnams is very helpful. It gives you an idea of different phrases that come in the raga which you can later apply (through mixing and matching phrases) to alapana or kalpana swaram. Some teachers suggest that one should not learn the swaram for varnams bu rather go straight to the sahitya. I don't subscribe to this view.

[arasi]

Yes, Mohan. Varnams are such powerful capsules of a rAgA. While I agree with you that it is better to learn svarAs first in varNams, with krutis, I think learning the song first and 'think' in svarams here and there where you need to retain the sangatis is a better way.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, ganesh-mourthy, Svarajnana is of three kinds, 1.becoming able to recognise the notes while listening to a composition, 2. becoming able to write a composition in notation on his own and 3.becoming able to sing Svarakalpana in a composition. There are certain easy methods to acquire them. Which one do you want to know? amsharma.

[sureshjm]

I am in a faraway land busy with some work and took a peek accidently. Welcome aboard Sharma Sir. But sorry being avaricious but all the three. I am reasonably good in 1 lacks dexterity in 2 and 3. I shall check how this thread goes on a later time. but once the 3rd sharma sir mentioned is acquired others are cake walk.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Sharmaji,

though i learnt the first method slowly I wonder how coudl one pick that faster. then let us move over to 2 and three.

[PUNARVASU]

Practising all the vaisais in various ragas helps and also listening to lot of music.

[msakella]

Dear b/s-members, To tell the fact, when I was seriously learning music, none of them have ever been taught to me by anybody in a proper manner even though I have much grasping power at that age. Later, mostly while teaching my students in the Govt. Colleges of Music & Dance of Andhra Pradesh and in my teaching life spread over more than five decades I have experimented upon a number of my students who have in this way became my Gurus in this respect and ultimately found some successful easy methods. By perseverantly following these methods and by vigorous and regular practice an able aspirant can easily acquire them within a very short time. But, as these methods are not traditional and as they need much hard work too even at an younger age, many of the teachers do not prefer them to follow.
1. Even from the first day of learning, the students should always be initiated to play, sing and practice along with the music and rhythm of ‘Casio’ while learning the preliminary exercises and they should be made to sing in three levels, 1.singing the notation 2.singing ‘Akaara’ of the same notation and 3.singing the lyric of any composition they learn to get good knowledge of notation within a very short time.
2. All the teachers must supply each composition they teach along with correct notation and a pre-recorded CD and the students should be initiated to write the notation of each composition they learn so many times until they become able to write it even without a single mistake.
3. Right from the first day of learning music the students should be initiated to
gradually practice all the Special-laya-exercises furnished in the 4th item and they should also be initiated to sing the Jati and Svara-muktayis furnished in the 5th item of my CD, AMS Easy Methods-2007 available from http://www.sangeethapriya.org/~chandra/. They should also be initiated to sing Svara-muktayis of other ragas also in each Gita. For example while singing the Gita in Shuddhasaveri they should be made to sing Svara-muktayis not only in Shuddhasaveri but also in other ragas like Shankarabharana, Mohana and Kalyani also in which they have also learnt the Gitas. Right from Gitas the students must be exposed to sing Svarakalpana. The teachers should never think that Svarakalpana should alone be made while singing Kritis only. They should always think in which way the students must be made to stand on their own in the process of making them independent in all aspects. amsharma

[msakella]

Dear brother-member, nick H, In the 44th post under the thread ‘Violin bowing’ of ‘Sangeeta Kalalaya’ you have raised one important point ‘the bigest problem with finding a teacher is how to judge the quality of the teaching when we know nothing, which is why we need a teacher?’ Thinking that the aspirants must be enlightened in this important aspect and also that this thread is more relevant than that I hereunder give my view in this respect.

Even though we no nothing of cooking we can adjudge the quality of cooking basing upon the taste of the meal which is the criteria of cooking a meal. In the same manner the criteria of singing or playing music is to make it enjoyable to the listener. The teacher must do the needful in making his student play or sing enjoyable music. Depending upon the basic instinctive levels of Laya and Shruti of the aspirant along with his grasping ability and regular practice if the vigilant and efficient teacher teaches the required Varnas properly the student becomes able to learn Kritis on his own. I always teach my students in this manner only. Within one year, at the end of learning Varnas, if the student is unable to learn Kritis on his own this obviously proves the inefficient and improper teaching of the teacher. amsharma.

[VK RAMAN]

One should enjoy oneself too before making it enjoyable to other listners IMHO.

[prasad_vasan]

Are you the same VKRAMAN of AIR Bangalore?

[msakella]

Whoever sings always thinks that others also are relishing his music equally along with him which, in fact, is not true at all. Though utterly unbearable everybody relishes his own smell and music is not different. This is more particular in respect of aged musicians. Until they are pulled out they want to sing or play. amsharma

[ganesh_mourthy]

Oops, I think msakella ji has his own style of imagery all the time. The last writing of his denotes it.

[msakella]

Thinking that our ‘swaragnana’ will badly effect I have responded in ‘Teaching/ Learning K.Violin’ under ‘Sangitakalalaya’. amsharma

[twister]

Dear b/s-members, To tell the fact, when I was seriously learning music, none of them have ever been taught to me by anybody in a proper manner even though I have much grasping power at that age. Later, mostly while teaching my students in the Govt. Colleges of Music & Dance of Andhra Pradesh and in my teaching life spread over more than five decades I have experimented upon a number of my students who have in this way became my Gurus in this respect and ultimately found some successful easy methods. By perseverantly following these methods and by vigorous and regular practice an able aspirant can easily acquire them within a very short time. But, as these methods are not traditional and as they need much hard work too even at an younger age, many of the teachers do not prefer them to follow.
1. Even from the first day of learning, the students should always be initiated to play, sing and practice along with the music and rhythm of

Dear Msakella, why are your posts are ALWAYS cut off?

[Rasikaas]

Mr. ganesha-mourthy, I was 7 years old when I returned from a amovie and found I could play the song that was featured in the movie on my father's veena. I wasnt trained in Classical Music all that seriously till then since I was only 7.I was enrolled into a class after the episode. I never realized how I did that but I always heard/hear music in swaras. Sometimes I feel it takes off thewhole fun.
But after this question from you, I have been seriously looking at how my son tries to play a particular song on the piano.. I see that as CML mentioned , I think it is basically by sruthi synchronisation. He tries to establish and see whether a particular note is higher or lower than what he attempts to play (based on the the previous segment he has perfected until then) and adjusts that way. Initially he had to try most of the notes by trial and error, but now there is a definite improvement. I have also seen that it is easier for him to find the swaras of an instrumental piece as against vocal music with lyrics.
I am going to try and see if this VK method which seems to be an excellent guide can help him fine tune. Thanks for bringing this up.

[VEENASRINIVAS]

The basic and foremost thing is to practice the sarale varisas till alankara which is the initial excercises in mayamalavagowla raga with the three speeds. This helps a lot. Ofcourse listening to various good vocal artist also helps.

[msakella]

Dear brother-member,VEENASRINIVAS, Mere practice of saralee-varasas upto alankaras in 3 speeds in Mayamalavagaula alone is not the basice and foremost thing to enable any person sing or play Svarakalpana. And as a professional teacher I cannot agree with you that it helps a lot. A brilliant aspirant can sing all the above maximum within a week from the day he starts learning music from an efficient teacher. Even if he practices the same for a month he cannot become able to sing Svarakalpana at all but these exercises. It would be more helpful if you kindly give some un.ambiguous suggestions to the aspirants.amsharma

[coolkarni]

.

[cmlover]

A raga name is just a label
(but without which)
Muic is indeed a Babel
(you exclaim)
But there are too many
(just tell me)
you want a drop or a pot of honey

[arasi]

I had dessert, a tasty treat with a newfangled name-
tastes like a special sweet I tasted once, said a friend
latikA something?-asked one; this isn't it, said another

I said, may I have another?
I love the taste and texture
why rake my brains over its name
and eat up the sweet without
stopping to s-a-v-o-r it?

[msakella]

Dear brother-members, Many people think the God remains in the temples alone externally but very few realise that he remains only internally. In the same way, from the ocean of music anybody gets only his-pocketful of music. But, as nobody is aware the size of his own internal pocket he goes on trying to acquire as much as he can and in that process comes the ‘practice’. While, for all the other arts, sufficient visual aids are available and physical exertion is most minimum in acquiring them, in acquiring music, while the visual aids are very limited and very heavy physical and mental exertion is needed by the way of most regular practice which is beyond the comprehension of any non-professional musician. That is why the non-professional musicians always cry aloud whenever I bark upon ‘regular practice’ and try to recollect this old joke to get mental satisfaction at the least.
This thread ‘Svarajnana in a short time’ was started by one of our enthusiastic brother-members who was inquisitive of knowing the details of this invisible art. As a professional teacher I have myself enquired hundreds of professional musicians and teachers to find whether there is any easy method to make the aspirants efficiently and quickly sing Ragalapana and Svarakalpana within a very short time and everybody expressed that there is no easy method at all. Later I have made umpteen experiments upon my students and, ultimately, found some successful easy methods to very quickly and efficiently make the aspirants sing Svarakalpana within a very short time and later Ragalapana also within a little more time. By meticulously following this method I have been making the aspirants sing mathematical-svarakalpana even for Gitas within a period of not more than 6 months from the date they start learning music if they exert themselves with a regular practice of 2 to 4 hours. But, as this is not a traditional method of teaching, people are unable to believe it.
Now, recently I have started a ‘work-shop on Svarakalpana and Ragalapana’ weekly once on Sundays only to enable the aspirants sing Svarakalpana within a period of 3 months. Interested local persons are welcome to visit this. amsharma

[srikant1987]

Keyboard and fretted instruments do help a bit.

But I, like Rasikaas also learnt the keyboard first.

But that way, you won't be able to tell anusvaras from svaras themselves: where a ravai like grrs occurs, you will think of it as grsrs and so on. I think listening to some music, trying to notate it, and then having mistakes corrected should be a good way to learn them properly.

And I'm curious as to how you are taught songs. Is it not like first your teacher plays something and then you repeat it? To understand music for repeating, you need svarams in some form (with some anusvarams understood to be part of a svaram, some not understood -- but still playable).

[ganesh_mourthy]

This was an intense experience which I want to share with everyone pertaining to Swara gnana. But surprisingly how could I have forgtten this incident.

I guess it is monsoon time now everywhere and this is the best season to improve your Swaragnana. Surprised???????????


A few years back when I was learning varnams from my Guru I requested him to play the ragas slowly so that I could try to follow it. He consented and he used play it slowly and allowed me to follow him. I particularly wanted this because I strongly felt that even if you practice for hours still you could be perplexed when you are following someone playing because when you practice your mind dictates and you touch the notes accordingly and conversely when you would follow, you might have to follow some one else' dictation.

Well coming back to the incident.................. whenever he played a raga I could not help looking at his fingers. ( I play violin but this can be helpful to the vocalists also and I would tell you how, later. )
The instruments especially in violin you can to a reasonabe extent guess the notes by peeking and especially if he is playing it slow.

This went on for 3 or 4 classes and I was happy that I did fairly well. At least I was content if not him. Then one fine evening ( 8 P.M) there was a torrential rain , successively power shuts , breeze , cool weather..... silence ..... road circulation dwindled down too.... and I was ready to put down my violin but he was playing and I was forced to repeat him. To be very honest I was baffled . All that I was confidently playing previously I could not do that now.

So, subsequently when I practiced alone I played with lights off , off and on . Whenever there were power cuts in the evening I used to practice music. It used to be different where I focus only on the sound without visual help.

Then again after a few months ...evening again .......power cut....silence ......... ... did it work ????????????




Suspense ..........



Surprisingly I could follow him precisely.


So if you are in your initial stages and want to increase your swara gnana this is the time .... good pleasant weather ..... go to class in the evening and ask your Guru if he would mind if you switch off the light before starting. I reckon; he woudl be baffled , not you ...................


Kiddings apart, I strongly feel that our vision robs away some of our consciousness and hence you are only partially receptive to sound and in discerning it. (this is for vocalists also)

Try playing or singing in pitch dark and the whole experience would be different.

[srikant1987]

Well, shruti boxes don't work without electricity.

[ganesh_mourthy]

ha srikanth that is a lame excuse for not practicing. it is been a long time man invented batteries.

especially for violinists it gives a good control of bowing also. you cannot constantly check if your bow is near the bridge or not. your fingering becomes more accurate. and the notes and its frequencies well settle in your brain.

[srikant1987]

I'm not actually giving a lame excuse: I can play OK without lights and all ... But without electricity is a different matter. (And if shruti boxes can work on batteries, so can lights )

[arasi]

Wow! Every day brings new revelations
I have an old tamizh story: a man was keen on catching a stork. Why? I don't know. A challenge perhaps? Anyway, someone suggested the following: just put a pat of butter on the bird's head and when th sun melts the butter and obscures the stork's vision (and he cannot see you), go and grab him.
I leave the rest of the story to you....

[vasanthakokilam]

[coolkarni]

..

[arasi]

Cool: and make sure you don't scare someone out of his wits

[ganesh_mourthy]

why shoudl someone get scared at all?????? need an answer for this from cool.

[coolkarni]

..

[ganesh_mourthy]

yes sure I would like to listen to the man ki ankh khol baba

[Sathej]

Names Like MR , SSI beckon him and he breaks into : Kamaaaakshi Ambaaaaaaa".

Cool ji,
MR is for?

[coolkarni]

..

[coolkarni]

..