T N Seshagopalan for Karthik Fine Arts, Dec 8, 2008

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 09 Dec 2008, 11:22

The riddle commonly posed is: if a tree falls in a forest and there is nobody to hear it, does it still make a sound?

That can be rephrased as: if a musician sings a kriti and there is nobody around to hear it, does he still lose his sruthi?

The concert was advertised to start at 6:45 PM. Seeing the crowd rush out after Smt. Somya's concert (perhaps for refreshments), I made haste to buy a ticket for myself and my companion and went in to select good seats.

The concert started a good 35 minutes late. The excuse trotted out by someone was that the main artist was held up by heavy traffic. As is traffic suddenly materialized only for TNS but the accompanying artists had police escorts with sirens to bring them to Narada Gana Sabha on time.

A member of the audience could be heard remarking that the artist coming late to his own concert was a show of disrespect for the profession.

The partial song list is:

1. Meenakshi Me Mudham - Purvi Kalyani
2. ------------
3. Mayamma - Ahiri
4. ---------- - Sankarabharanam

The tani avarthanam started at 9:05 pm.

After a few minutes, I left the hall in disgust (which is expressed in my inability to remember even the kritis I heard last evening).

Maybe enough people stayed late to hear an RTP or the tukkadas. They can answer the riddle I posed earlier.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 09 Dec 2008, 11:30

A review is already there at http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7569/tns-karthik-fine-arts/. Maybe the moderators can merge this with that.

As regards the blanks, how one can't remember the main - and that too a Krithi like Swara Raga Sudha! Shruthi problems for TNS are well known and in all fairness, his voice didn't seem all that bad yesterday with Shruthi lapses happening only occasionally and in the higher octaves. I was quite disappointed with the short duration of the concert however.

Sathej

harigiri · Post by **harigiri** » 09 Dec 2008, 15:45

harimau wrote:A member of the audience could be heard remarking that the artist coming late to his own concert was a show of disrespect for the profession...

Even he came around half an hour late for the award function, organized by Mudra on Sunday the 07th. The sad part was he was the "award recipient"! I heard someone in the audience said "sadistic outlook"!!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Dec 2008, 16:40

sadistic or just tardy??

kvn_bhakta · Post by **kvn_bhakta** » 10 Dec 2008, 01:26

Sathej wrote:Shruthi problems for TNS are well known and in all fairness, his voice didn't seem all that bad yesterday with Shruthi lapses happening only occasionally and in the higher octaves.

Sruthi lapses are the true disrespect to music, forget lateness.

Raval · Post by **Raval** » 10 Dec 2008, 01:35

kvn_bhakta wrote:
Sathej wrote:Shruthi problems for TNS are well known and in all fairness, his voice didn't seem all that bad yesterday with Shruthi lapses happening only occasionally and in the higher octaves.
Sruthi lapses are the true disrespect to music, forget lateness.

Sruthi Mata, Laya Pita

If a person has this problem then he should quit singing in public or atleast have vocal support and have the vocal support person sing notes that are problamatic.

Being a Sangeetha Kalanidhi and singing off sruthi!

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 10 Dec 2008, 02:37

"Being a Sangeetha Kalanidhi and singing off sruthi!"

A question to you guys......

How many times in the year you have had "that off day" at work ? Nothing worked right, every thing went wrong, or at worst, you had the most mediocre day ?

I don't think your boss had pinned you down or criticized you for that, but you yourself had consoled yourself that you would try and do better the following day.....

I am sure TNS Sir will come around before the season is over !!!

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 10 Dec 2008, 04:10

since everyone is bashing TNS sir for coming late to his own concerts/functions, I have to mention the time he came early... to my own arangetram last year. Not only did he come early, but he came even before the chief guest (UKS sir) did... and he stayed until almost the very end.
What would be his motivation? He didnt have anything to gain by turning up early..and yet he did. As rasikas we have to admire him for the ocean of vidwat that he represents, and everything that he has achieved (and continues to achieve) in his lifetime. I always consider myself blessed to be alive during the time that such vidwans like TNS sir, UKS sir, Raghu sir and others are alive and still performing.

kaapijingala · Post by **kaapijingala** » 10 Dec 2008, 06:31

TNS sir is a ocean of vidhwath rightly said, his concert is not just enjoyment for the audience it is a music education for other musicians and young musicians of present generation, wow!!what a Mayamma he sang that day , he did niraval for veena gaana dasagamakakriye' (minakshimemudham dehi) and really displayed dasavidha gamakam in that line in his niraval We are all blessed to be alive during the time that such legend like TNs sir is alive and still performing

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Dec 2008, 09:09

Sam,
Well said. We call a person who is not as punctual as tardy and no more. To call our fellow humans (including sngeeta kalanidhis) by names which are unsuitable and unacceptable is yet another thing. I have been to TNS's concerts where he has been late. A slight irritation it is, but once he starts singing, his vidvat and imagination make you forget that. Sankirnam gives us the other side to it. For any vidvan to stay till the end of such an event is rare. TRS also is an exception when it comes to staying on, even for a debut event .

grsastrigal · Post by **grsastrigal** » 10 Dec 2008, 09:47

Today he is going to perform in BVB. Anyone could check and tell me whether he is in time !!!!!

I agree with SAM. As Arasi says- he is the ocean of music. Sometimes waves come late to the shore. But ocean is OCEAN only,

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 10 Dec 2008, 10:18

Sir

This discussion would have been invalid if TNS sir were in good form. Many times we had seen him come late but give a sterling performance and at those times he was forgiven for late coming. where are we heading friends ? do we condemn his late coming or do we condemn his singing because he came late or do we try to relate his late coming to his music or do we really see his out of form on a single day to his late coming ??? i sincerely dont get any point here. I sincerely accept Sam's comment about the Off day in work ... but who stayed could have really tasted the brilliance of Madyamavathi and the brilliant sparks of genius in Shankarabharanam .... His varieties in Swara Singing and the beautiful way in which Chandru sir accompanied and dorai sir gumukki and his valandalai varieties are a treat to watch ..... instead of just ruing about a single aspect of music. Just because some persons went out of their own disgust for a certain aspect of an event the whole world need not come down heavily upon a Giant of an artiste.

JB

ghanaragam · Post by **ghanaragam** » 10 Dec 2008, 10:28

what mridhangam says is v true, are we here to debate on the latecoming and other minor draw backs and shortcoming of a legend ,what are we going to gain and learn from his music is more important, real music lovers who atttended his concert only for the sake of music will never forget his sarvalagu swaras with a lively tempo in madhyamavathi and serene sankarabarnam alapana

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 10 Dec 2008, 10:31

True, his rendition of Swara Raga Sudha was pristine. And as regards TNS, his genius and excellence is beyond any doubt.
Sathej

ghanaragam · Post by **ghanaragam** » 10 Dec 2008, 11:07

awaiting for more enchanting performances of TNS sir during this season !! Today he is performing at BVB, will he sing any spl RTP in SPl Ragam

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 10 Dec 2008, 12:23

RTP may be unlikely since it is a short concert but I do remember a magnificent BHavapriya RTP in Season 2001 at that venue. The hall had less than 20 people at that time but TNS sang his heart out. That's the spirit of the man...

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 10 Dec 2008, 17:15

If one has to review this concert in one word - It is CACOPHONY
Late start, does traffic jams affect only TNS. If that is a problem, the artist should give sufficient allowance for that. Audience cannot be taken for granted and after all this a lousy performance.
no sruthi alignment, poorvikalyani alapana had all apaswarams in it. TNS a great vidwan ? - no doubt, but with voice limitations, he need to restrain a bit to have melody in the music. The kriti had all off beat sangathis (which according to some fans perhaps is innovation)
Huge exodus song after song. When I left in the third song alapana, few of the elderly people (seems to be TNS fans) were all cribbing about the concert, "en ippadi katharar theriyalai".
Overall a disappointment.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 10 Dec 2008, 19:41

I agree he had voice problems in Purvikalyani. But, the Kapi Narayani, Mayamma and the main Sankarabharanam were definitely not a cacophony. The Ragam interludes between the Pallavi and the Anupallavi and the Anupallavi and Charanam of Sarasa Samadhana were very good portrayals of the Ragam. Together, I would say they constituted a mini Alapanai of high quality.
Sathej

kvn_bhakta · Post by **kvn_bhakta** » 11 Dec 2008, 00:40

A lot of people are excusing this concert as a bad day, but of course we all know that TNS has as many such days as good ones. No doubt at his best his music surpasses any other artist today, but does this excuse apaswarams?

I am a devotee of KVN, and have listened to many mediocre and unmemorable concerts of that great singer. Of course one cannot expect an artist to be at his inspired best every day. But never have I heard a concert of KVN sprinkled with apaswarams.

I couldnt care less about lateness etc, but to me sruti suddham is sacred - even more so than great imagination. I differ with all you TNS fans in that, and we shall have to leave it at that.

cocacola · Post by **cocacola** » 11 Dec 2008, 01:54

A singer who sings off-key is like a surgeon whose hand shakes at the operating table. Nobody questions the knowledge of the artist/surgeon but everyone has deep apprehensions about the quality of work. And, who are we kidding? TNS doesnt sing off-key on an off-day ... its more the norm that we have all come to expect. I, for one, would prefer to stay home and listen to recordings of his heyday rather than being tormented by the crap he churns out these days.

Truly, a person like TNS can only survive in CM ... in any other musical genre he would have been banished ages ago and been forced to correct the issues with his voice. Its becoming more and more difficult to justify his vidwat just by his performances in recent memory. Even his imaginative kanakku is a bit jading, especially when it follows awful alapanas and bizarre sangathis that dont land.

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 11 Dec 2008, 02:31

So, lets take this one thing at a time. The issue here seems TNS use of voice, shruti, cacophony and tardiness.

If shruti is indeed the key norm by which one measures an acceptable carnatic concert, then most male singers (particularly today's top professionals) would
have no work. It is sad to contemplate this, but in general, shruti lapses are common. TNS further worsened what was already a deteriorating landscape for shruti alignment, but if one is guilty, all artists today are guilty as charged.

As for voice overage, TNS is terrible simply because he complements this rank bad dimension of his with mind-numbing speed. He uses his mouth in many possible ways, and he is obsessed with strange pronunciations that come out as sounds, music or melody - take it as you will. And, merely attempting to sing ragamalika swaras in 15 ragas in 3 minutes is nuts.

All said - TNS wont change now.

So, is there any singer today with TNS's depth and breadth in knowledge of complex literature? Any one with his imagination? Any competiton to his oratory skills? None can even begin to contemplate his experimentation with laya. He can sing swarams in literally a 100 million permutations, and they are seldom sarvalaghu, tho he does that just as well. He is a giant - and I am confident that not just in CM - if you were to go outside it as well, its going to be hard to find someone with that many abilities.

As for well-aligned, melodius, shruti-based singing - just watch all the existing KVN/MLV videos

! Dont bother with TNS.

cocacola · Post by **cocacola** » 11 Dec 2008, 05:17

All said - TNS wont change now.

Why should we resign to this fate? TNS should make an attempt to do something about his voice issues ... maybe use an extra tampura or sing with a disciple. Maybe give fewer concerts to preserve his voice. Push comes to shove, on a bad day, he shouldnt attempt extravagant sangathis - something he never does! In fact on a bad day, he goes overboard, as if to compensate and TNS fans cheer on under the pretext that he's giving it 'all'.

Defending TNS by pointing out the general lack of sruthi-alignment among current musicians only set a bad example for youngsters. By embracing musicians like TNS, are we sending the message that appalling sruthi lapses are fine if you are able to pull off flashy brighas and can switch 15 different ragas in 3 min?

A standard argument that we've all heard is that the kinds of things TNS attempts on stage will inevitably come at the cost of sruthi lapses and I find this viewpoint rather lame - just listen to TNS himself from the 80s! There are random sruthi lapses but the overall experience is delightful.

As I mentioned earlier, TNS and his ilk can only survive in CM where rasikas are extremely tolerant about off-key singing.

hariharans · Post by **hariharans** » 11 Dec 2008, 05:57

I think we need to look at one aspect, has he been coming late to majority of his concerts or is it a sporadic incident? If its a habit then its not pardonable whoever they are. And the same is applicable to Rasikas too. We, Indians take other's time for granted. Unless we learn to respect others' time, these will prevail and we are doomed to live with it.

Ragjay · Post by **Ragjay** » 11 Dec 2008, 08:31

Hi I have read with interest all that has been said about TNS..A great artist with a lot of vidwat and knowledge will surely know how to give a concert with a bad throat. I am sure he would have observed how the senior vidwans of the bye gone era would have managed such a situation and adapted to suit his needs. We may give it to the artist, that it must have been his off day. I am sure that all comments made were about his concert under review and not personal in nature.Rasikas who pay to hear him have a right to express their disappointment and resentment to a below average performance by an artist of the stature of TNS.I hope that as the season unfolds we may get to see the best of TNS.....Bye Ragjay

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 11 Dec 2008, 08:49

Here are some of my thoughts - as for coming late to concerts, to be honest, TNS has largely been on time in the last 10-15 concerts that I've attended, except the Karthik Fine Arts one. And I agree with hariharans - such indiscipline is also found among Rasikas - how many of us leave during the Thani? No matter how bad the concert was, surely one can't find anything wrong with the Thani when veterans like Shri Guruvayur Dorai and Shri TV Vasan play. Whats the explanation then for such acts that show disrespect to the Vidwans?
About Shruthi lapses, yes, TNS undoubtedly has voice problems and its more so of late. But in all fairness, to say that the concert was full of Apaswarams/Shruthi lapses would definitely be unfair. After the Purvikalyani, his voice was quite ok - his Kapi Narayani, Ahiri and Sankarabharanam weren't bad at all in terms of Shruthi match. And talking of comparisons, well, it is only fair to give great artistes some leeway once they are say, past 60. KVN - I have heard quite a few recordings where his voice is unccoperative, to be mild and Shruthi lapses are liberal. I even have a recording wherein he sings Manvyala and Eti Janma where he clearly struggles to maintain Shruthi. And he consistently had problems in the lower octaves as regards perfect Shruthi in songs like Viriboni in his later years. Of course, this takes away nothing from his greatness. His Neravals and Bhavam that he displays during Krithi renditions are unmatchable. Most greats like SSI, GNB and Ariyakudi (with rare exceptions like BMK and so on) too had obvious Shruthi problems. In particular, as we have only a few surviving records of Ariyakudi, almost all of his records have Shruthi lapses all the way and its sometimes with the help of accompanists like TNK that they get covered up. But does that mean Ariyakudi overstayed the concert scene? Ideally speaking, yes, he had. But, considering his greatness and excellence in performing as a whole package, his lapses may be overlooked. SSI Mama too had terrible voice problems after a certain stage.
These definitely do not contribute to setting a bad example to aspiring musicians. Nobody performs at their best beyond a particular age - even today, I see legendary instrumentalists give performances where they falter quite a bit on the Talam. But in my opinion, an aspiring musician should merely take the good, that is available in ample measure in their music and leave out the rest.
Every artiste has his/her own limitations especially after a certain age as every Rasika has his/her own preferences. How many present day artistes - even popular ones use notes while singing? Is that desirable? Why can't Rasikas/musicians alike take such a point from someone like TNS who has such a wide repertoire and yet seldom uses notes, even for thematic concerts. There is no doubt that great musicians had, have and will have their off-days (even to such an extent that their Shruthi is offbeat). Its up to us to appreciate the good in their music and leave out the rest or seek it in some other musician.

Sathej

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 11 Dec 2008, 09:04

If people avoided artistes who irk them with characteristic flaws like shruti lapses, there wouldn't be such disgust and discontentment! I don't see why an artiste should stop singing as long as there continues to be an audience for him. That should be the only and objective prerequisite. Anyone who reads the reviews on this forum would have noticed TNS's flaws (along with other artistes') have been well documented. If shruti shuddham is so very important to these people, don't go to a TNS concert!

mahesh3 · Post by **mahesh3** » 11 Dec 2008, 09:17

Bilahari,

My sentiments, exactly. The idea of a person going to a TNS concert, expecting and perhaps, even demanding shruthi suddham is laughable...

ragangaragam · Post by **ragangaragam** » 11 Dec 2008, 09:40

What sathej says is absolutely true inspite of his voice problem TNS sir demonstrates how a musician should manage and present a concert lively only depending on vidwath let us take all the good aspects from the music of a Maha vidwan rather than brooding over minor negative points

Even in BVB concert of TNS large number of audience left when Ramesh started Thani Avarthaanam, I think the sabha authorities should do something about this , this is a disrepect shown to the percussion artist and more over most of the audience leave the hall via front row disturbing the other listeners.

ragangaragam · Post by **ragangaragam** » 11 Dec 2008, 09:58

Kindly stop discussing negative points of a legend we are here to observe and assimilate what he sings and how he presents ragas niravas swaras Rtps in a breathtaking manner , as bilahari says why should he stop singing, he had jampacked audience till 9 30pm at BVB, audience have choice if they donot want to listen or appreciate his music they can better stop attending his concerts. I think it is not all correct to highlight and review minor negative aspects of a mahavidwan

Amruthavarshini · Post by **Amruthavarshini** » 11 Dec 2008, 10:20

Well said Sathej. TNS is one great artist of our times. There is no question about his abundant vidwat in all the forms of carnatic music. He has been under this attack for sruthi lapses since ages. All rasikas have the right to exert their view about a concert. I wonder why TNS alone is attacked this way I am reminded of a tamil saying here, Kaaikkira maram dhan kalladi padum! Sruthi lapses, fine. Late coming, fine. Apaswarams? It is attrocious. I am not here to argue the case of TNS.Personal likes and dislikes should not be made statements in this forum. I dont want to stoop to the level to pick and state sruthi lapses or crap stuff sung by so many artists, both old and new. There are so many good things in his music, which are a treat for rasikas, learning experience for students and artists. It is not a loss for TNS, but it is a loss for true rasikas and students of CM if we spread unwanted issues like this.

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 11 Dec 2008, 11:13

Amruthavashini
I gather from the way you have written you are a die hard fan of TNS. That is your personal choice. But you cannot stop any one from expressing his views or opinions. What is attrocious about it ? This was the first TNS concert that I attended and the opinion expressed was based on my experience.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 11 Dec 2008, 11:48

There is absolutely nothing wrong in voicing one's displeasure about a concert. These are anyway highly subjective issues. While a person A may say the concert was cacaphony/disappointment, B is at full liberty to have words of praise for the same concert. The unaaceptable thing is when people go to the extent of asking someone stop stop singing in public. Then, I'm afraid no singer would qualify for a public performance as every one has his/her own negative points.
Sathej

Amruthavarshini · Post by **Amruthavarshini** » 11 Dec 2008, 12:04

music fan,

When u can express ur feelings, even, I can. You are right, cent percent, I am indeed a die hard fan of TNS and I m proud to be so. It is indeed attrocious to me. It is my feeling.I never asked anyone to stop. You may go on and on.

blackadder · Post by **blackadder** » 11 Dec 2008, 12:44

I have tremendous respect for TNS. However, I have attended several concerts of his where he has turned up late. And he has botched each of them to varying degrees. It is as if he had a pre-programmed menu which he had to serve whatever be the time limitation. In effect, the concert would turn into an - almost - arrogant display of pyrotechnics, sruti lapses and random sangatis.

To condemn him utterly for this and to relegate him to the backwaters of CM is perhaps a bit extreme. The question, though, is does he realise what he is doing and does he just not care a jot or does he not even realise that he goes from the crests to the troughs in these concerts?

I prefer to listen to him with minimal expectation of a completely rounded concert; pillory him when he falls and applaud when he touches heights that few before or since have. I merely wish that he would tease out the applause in me than the censure.

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 11 Dec 2008, 13:30

It has been a very heated discussion so far. Granted every one is entitled to his opinion,
this can go on and on.
But as 'blackladder' observed, the moot question 'is TNS himself
aware of what is happening? Be it either yes or no, he should do something about it
(particularly on shruti front) in the interests of himself, his inumerable rasikas and carnatic
music itself.

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 11 Dec 2008, 16:00

Amruthavarsini
I dont think I require your consent to go on and on. It was purely my opinion and my objection to your post was your commenting "atrocious".
Anyways there is nothing to discuss as the concert was RANK BAD (my opinion). As a die hard fan you may rant otherwise.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Dec 2008, 00:07

I am sure TNS is as aware of "the problem" as anyone else is! As Black Adder says. he is capable of touching heights that no one ever has - except that the opposite has an almost even chance of occuring!

I suggest we accept his eccentricities along with his genius - and remember that, even on an off-day, his concert is an education.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 12 Dec 2008, 05:39

Entirely agree with Vijay.
Sathej

vivadhiragam · Post by **vivadhiragam** » 12 Dec 2008, 07:02

As some of you said his concert is an education for all music students upcoming artists and other musicians.
I like to share an incident which i heard from an organiser, when veena legend Balachander performed at a sabha in mylapore in 80's he had played sankarabarnam alapana alone for more than an hr few audience had become restless and commented the way of his rendition was atrocious and harsh and advised him to please all the listeners by short and crisp alapanas. The legend boldy said "sir you have choices if you dont like to listen to my veena and find it atrocious you can very well walk out of the hall, this is my style and i play for music lovers who especially come for my veena, similarly if somebody finds that TNS's music is unpleasing and atrocious to their ears, let them stop attending his concert
why should they give their personnel opinion about a Mahavidwan who have already acheived greater heights in music , i find lot of prejudice in most of the replies and Let me request all the music lovers to stop their biased views and discuss only the positive aspects of legends and mahavidwans and not to highlight and comment on the negative aspects.

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 12 Dec 2008, 07:29

vivadhiragam,
criticisms can be positive and negative. Audience without your advise will choose what to attend. I dont think you need to guide them on that. The issue discussed is the quality of A concert and NOT his vidwat.
Suggest you try to assimilate in a proper perspective before passing your comments or judgement.

Amruthavarshini · Post by **Amruthavarshini** » 12 Dec 2008, 08:48

His vidwat can be discussed only be legends and not pedestrians like u and me.

vivadhiragam · Post by **vivadhiragam** » 12 Dec 2008, 09:12

Music fan, criticisms can be positive and negative i accept but nobody discusses the demirts in any other concert in sucha a bad manner as they do to TNS, why ??? does it mean that all others sing flawless and dont have any shortcomings in their concert, why the concert of TNS alone is discussed in such a bad way for the past on week?? As amrithavarshini said his vidwath can be discussed only by legends.

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 12 Dec 2008, 10:24

Amruthavarshini wrote:His vidwat can be discussed only be legends and not pedestrians like u and me.

No one is questionig or doubting his vidwat. Please read all posts carefully and do not jump the gun.

Vivadhiragam - To answer your question on why his concerts are reviewed and bashed, his is perhaps most reviewed in this forum after Sanjay, TMK and the like. I am not sure of the statistics and it is out of cursory look and gut feel and I have no intention of running a statistics on the numbers reviewed.