Preposterous responses - The Malladis' turn

Dhanavendra · Post by **Dhanavendra** » 12 Dec 2008, 12:53

well said arasi.

Mon cher/ Ma chere cmlover, vous ecrivez francais tres bien. si vous pouvez ecrivez en samskrit et telugu aussi......

yadha samsrite api bhavan likthum shakyate chet samyak bhavathi.

hindi me bhi likh sakte ho,

malayalathalim nanayittu ezhudiyal nanayene.

kannada bhasha madye kelsa madithiva athva

telugulo raasthe chaala baguntundhi

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Dec 2008, 14:23

CML,
More multi-linguists are coming out of the wood worK!
My previous post was not a response to your post. I delayed sending mine and it appeared soon after what you had said in your post which I had nor read! I meant to appeal to those who were reading too much into the 'supposed to be' responses of the Malladi brothers. Having observed them and having interacted with them a few times during the past ten years or so, I know that they are not an arrogant pair to make such remarks and they are low key too, as Vijay points out. To make a mountain of an irrelevant interview was the thing which bothered me. To laugh these things away with humor does not work sometimes (as Nick and I tried to). Some folks take every word of a write up seriously.
In the end, what any performer likes singing and emoting is what appeals to us most in a good concert. This happens when they pay a lot of attention to words, or at least the intended bhAvam of the song.

Vijay,
I am not amused by your indifference to sAhityA

and I do know for sure that you are quite amused by my statement which makes me smile too. Folks, please do not defend me or Vijay on this because we disagree to agree, and a lot of cordiality exists between us!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 12 Dec 2008, 14:44

@ Arasi

One may be immune to the language of a composition in two ways
(a) by just not caring about the lyrics

(b) by knowing both / all languages.

I can understand Tamil song, and make enough sense of Telugu songs to enjoy them when they're sung with bhavam, so it doesn't matter too much.
---
I don't understand Sanskrit songs well ... but I can there delve into the music alone, and relish the bhavam the music generates. Problem is with Tamil songs where the lyrics go one way and music goes another. This happens when they are retuned -- and I think sometimes even with original tunes. Patnam, Tyagaraja, Shyama Shastri and Subbaraya Shastri (who wrote a big chunk of Telugu songs) usually have sahityam go hand in hand with the music, so that's no problem.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Dec 2008, 15:18

Srikant,
We all can't be Dhanvendra in our language skills but as you say, you can still enjoy songs in any language because: we are familiar with them and have a sense about the bhAvam or, we can pick up the meaning of the lyrics here and there with a few words which we understand (reading up the meaning adds to the pleasure) and with some outstanding krutis, the bhAvam flows to our ears even without any understanding of the lyrics.
My only question is: why do you think that music and lyrics in a tamizh song don't meet but part saying goodbye to each other? This invalidates my experience as a rasikA and also as a composer. The bulk of my songs are in tamizh! You started me thinking. It is perhaps a good time to check my songs to see if the music and the lyrics after all go hand in hand

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 12 Dec 2008, 16:19

True Arasi - it is good to know that the core group of forum members including you and CML can tolerate young (well, relatively!!) upstarts like me voicing strong opinions. I am grateful for both your indulgence and the opportunity for informed debates. It is a sign of the times that elders in our society tolerate, and indeed welcome, dissent.

Anyway, to clamber back on to my preacher's pedestal, I would like to distinguish respect for a person's (or in this case, a duo's) music from their opinions, musical or otherwise. Besides, I am not sure whether debating and discussing them is as pointless as some suggest. The reaction was certainly an overkill in TMK's case and to a lesser extent, in this thread as well.

But the issues at the core of these discussions - the role of BHakthi in CM and the language conundrum - are central to the development and the future of CM and the protagonists in both cases voiced opinions that were specific and strong. Having done so (whatever the provocation/circumstances), it is not resaonable to expect rasikas not to react. Whether we agree or diasgree is another matter - in TMK's case I largely did and this case, I respectfully differed. That does not mean I do not enjoy their music for which, as I have already noted, I have nothing but the highest regard.

It is only when slander and mudslinging enter the picture, that the whole discussion snowballs into a monster. To a large extent I think we have avoided that and hopefully we will keep it that way.

Also, it is true that I am somewhat indifferent to Sahithya but this springs from both my language limitations and what I look for in music. It is not my contention that lyrics have no importance nor that they cannot enhance appreciation of someone who is familiar with the language of composition.

While I continue to hold that the primary purpose of any form of classical music ought to be music rather than lyrics and would, any day, pick a brilliant tune composed on pedestrian lyrics over lyrical excellence garbed in an unappealing melody, I do not seek to impose this choice on anyone else. Besides, in most cases, including those pertaining to certain participants of this thread,

there is no need for such a choice!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Dec 2008, 18:49

Dhanavendra!
My favourite is maNipravALaM as arasi would vouch

If only performers adopt it, it will become the esperonto of CM

Sreeni Rajarao · Post by **Sreeni Rajarao** » 12 Dec 2008, 19:12

cmlover wrote:Vijay
I was given to understand that DKJ was involved in jointly tuning some pieces. I may be wrong. I know for sure that Thooran's and Ambujam krishna's were tuned by famous musicians. In fact barring the Trinity and HMB it is rare to find a vaggeyakara (not sure about OVK) who was also a Master Musician. I should not forget BMK....

Let's think about this.

So, Patnam SubramaniaIyer, Maha Vaidyanatha Iyer, Veene Sheshanna, Bidaram Krishnappa, Mysore Vasudevacharya, ............................ all these vaggEyakAras don't count as Master Musicans?

I disagree.

Sreeni Rajarao

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 12 Dec 2008, 19:28

My list is inadequate and incomplete.
While mentioning Trinity how can I leave out Purandara, Tamil Trinity, Annammacharya and a host of others. They were musical giants who laid the Foundation of our CM. But then we can talk only about our recent times and of Master Musicians who we have heard. Vaggeyakaras past and present are the life-blood of CM and we are eternally indebted to them. Thygaraja himself eulogized them collectively in his gem endarO...

srikrishna · Post by **srikrishna** » 12 Dec 2008, 20:59

On a lighter note, my daughter learnt a tillana in Tamil set to Kuntalavarali raagam. Tamil not being her mother tongue, she was singing what she learnt in front of Vid. Suguna Purushottaman who suddenly burst into laughter -- I believe the meaning of the particular phrase is `` the god and his consort ON the elephant'' but what my daughter sang meant ``the god and his consort BEING an elephant''. I am sure such enunciation, while incorrect, can bring unwarranted comic diversions

. We can see quite a lot of such gems in the way Tamilians sing Tyagaraja kritis.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Dec 2008, 23:56

srikrishna,
I am glad there are others who believe in humor--also , laughter is the best antidote when it comes to threads which take an ugly turn.
While we rasikAs should look for quality in music, we need not waste our time in criticizing musicians on reading and interpreting some space-fillers in popular magazines, taking them as gospel truths.
Anyway, I wish to listen to the brothers during the season and enjoy their music for what it's worth. While an all tamizh krutis concert appeals to me a great deal, so do all kannaDa and telugu songs concerts. A mix of all is even better.
Now, excuse me. I really want to get off this merry-go-round (??) of artiste bashing. Any others game for 'curtains' on this thread and such others ?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Dec 2008, 01:31

One vote against any closures

Rasikas will have the Final say even it is prosaic and lackadaisical as long as it does not take a nasty turn

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 13 Dec 2008, 07:35

1. if it is the choice of the brothers not to include Tamil krithis rasikas only would ultimately decide to take them or leave them. my choice as a rasika would be not to allow this minor thing to come in the way of my enjoying cm
2. the much cliched language chauvinism was brought about by bifurcation of states on linguistic lines. Potty Sriramulu gave away his life for this.things were not the same again after these.
3. added to this the dravidian movements agitated against hindi in tamilnadu. in this way tamilnadu got isolated while all other states were marching ahead in this front.
4. to those who are for only tamil songs in concerts; please have a self introspection. how many of your children learnt to read and write tamil or how many of them pursue their studies in tamil medium? how many of you keep regretting even today your folly of not having learnt hindi?
5. to those who want to vehemently oppose tamil whether it is kavery or carnatic music; please have a self introspection; can the basis of your anger be that if the tamilians are given room they dominate and can the root of this be a lack of self assurance about your language and culture? i feel it is not necessary and correct.
6. i like to learn telugu to understand telugu songs or kannada for enjoying kannada songs. that opens a new world for me. whether it is vidwan or rasika i feel this would be the most beneficial attitude.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 13 Dec 2008, 08:30

Dear brother-member,chalanata, What you wrote is absolutely correct. Irrespective of the place we live in we are all brothers and sisters. I like Tamil well and I have learnt Tamil and, after my mother toungue, Telugu, I can speak Tamil only than any other South Indian Language even though I have given a number of Lec-dems in Karnataka State. Chauvinism in any manner must always be condemned severely. Nowadays, in some of the Telugu compositions, the lyric is replaced with Tamil words. But, I am unable to understand, why, in the same manner, the notes ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“srgmpdnÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢, solkattus like ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“tha-dhi-gi-na-thaÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢, all the names of Ragas and all the names of Talas are not replaced with Tamil names. amsharma

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 13 Dec 2008, 09:29

Out of curiosity, where DO these swara names "srgmpdn" and phrases like "tha-dhi-gi-na-tha" come from?

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 13 Dec 2008, 12:21

There is in english literature, a device called Onomatopoeia, which means words which came about in imitation of the sound they describe.
Examples are boom, blast, crow, bang,swish etc. Similar native words are Pataassu/PatAka/i for crackers, kAka/kAga/e for crow etc.

The sounds used to describe the rhythm patterns of percussion arose similarly. 'Bol' or Solkattu are words which most closely resemble the sound made on the instrument.
this must be the origin of ta-dhin-gi-na-tom etc.

srgmpdn have names in sanskrit Shadja, Rshabha, GandhAra etc, which do not have any musical relevance.
going off on a tangent, the western equivalent of swara- phrases or sargam as they called in Uttaradi music, solfa or solfege have a very interesting paternity.

the scale, called the 'gamut' gets its notes from the first words of each phrase of a latin hymn -
"Ut queant laxis" = "just as your servants"
"Resonare fibris" = "may sing freely"
"Mira gestorum" = "of the miracles"
"Famuli tuorum" = "of your works,"
"Solve poluti" = "release the stains (of sin)"
"Labii reatum" = "from their lips"
"Sancte Johannes" = "Saint John"

Ut and sa were replaced by Do and ti, for convenience; are notes can't have an abrupt-consonant ending. they have to end in a vowel(preferably a long vowel).

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Dec 2008, 12:34

I think the swara names come from Sanskrit? --- are our swaras named very differently to Hindustani swara names?

The solkattus are just sounds that have become words.

I was very tempted to make up some mythical story to substantiate them, but I must try not to be too preposterous!

later...

<Sorry... I didn't see that the question had already been answered>

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 13 Dec 2008, 14:05

Thanks for that keerthi; never knew how the western scale came about! I know when I was starting out to learn CM, I was told each swara had a colour and animal association, but I was never clear exactly what the name of each swaram meant. Nick, I urge you to be preposterous in keeping with the general trend of this thread and our latest discussions elsewhere! Be trendy.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 13 Dec 2008, 16:15

Swaras are said to stand for various animals and are said to represent their sounds/calls - I think Rishabha is elephant - not sure about this though

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 13 Dec 2008, 16:45

sharmaji,
pranams and thanks.

SangithaRasika · Post by **SangithaRasika** » 13 Dec 2008, 18:24

What is the difference between a Devaranama and a kriti ? Arent all compositions by the Trinity, all Dasars and other greats in CM are devaranaamas literally ? (barring discussions of whether CM is a medium for non-bhakti) Can a devaranama be picked and sung as a main piece ? I have heard the older generation pick a Purandara Dasas composition and sing it as a main piece / submain (but like Yuvrajs test hundreds very far and few) ! That is rarely done these days ! I think Sanjay did once when he was in Chicago a few years back.

My point being, there is no dearth of composition in any language it is just the artist's preference (not) to sing it !!

SR

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 13 Dec 2008, 19:45

Vijay the elephant sounds niShAdam
ShadjaM rauti mayUrastu gAvO nardanti carShabhaM |
ajAvikau ca gAndhAraM krauncau nadati madhyamaM |
puShpasAdhAraNE kAlE kokilO rauti pancamaM|
ashvastu dhaivataM rauti niShAdaM rauti kunjaraH ||
iti nAradaH

(The peacock sounds ShadjaM; the cows sound RiShabhaM; the goat/sheep sound GandhAraM; during flowering season (Spring season) the cuckoo coos Pancamam; horses sound dhaivataM and the elephants sound NiShAdam. )
as stated i the musical work by Narada...

poornashadjam · Post by **poornashadjam** » 13 Dec 2008, 20:11

Hi , we also have the sapta swaras named in tamil also, since the age of silappadigaaram . It is like this... Kural, Tuttam, Kaikilai, Uzhai, Ili, Vilari and Taram. ( for srgmpdn)

Sridhar

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 13 Dec 2008, 22:13

Thanks sir - I remember something along those lines but had forgotten the details...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Dec 2008, 04:26

I do not mean to resurrect the dormant controversy. My feeling is that the "journalist" made it much more sensationalistic than what it probably was. Turning this around in a constructive fashion,
going by Vijay's excellent point that it makes sense for the brothers to learn some weighty tamil krithis and on the belief that they will only welcome an opportunity to learn, here are a couple of possibilities to gain the max bang for the effort.

1. kapali - Mohanam
2. kadaikkan vaithennai - Begada

The superior melody and song construction themselves are good enough reasons to learn these two, they just happen to be tamil krithis. I can see them do full justice to these two excellent songs.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 15 Dec 2008, 09:03

VK,
kapAli? Have you considered the complexity in the lyrics? For non-tamizh speakers, a tough one to sing, I think. A flowing, simply worded samashTi charaNam song which has some sanskrit words too, like parAtparA is easier.
Personally, I can listen to them happily even if they do not choose to sing i tamizh...

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 15 Dec 2008, 23:21

Is Tamil that much more difficult to pronounce than Telugu? We have "zha" that's pretty tough. But otherwise, is there a significant difference?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 17 Dec 2008, 11:41

kmrasika · Post by **kmrasika** » 17 Dec 2008, 12:08

coolkarni wrote:.....a long association with a member here -Sriram Mahabhashyam, who once learnt under Nednuri,

I always wondered about mnsriram's musical training considering his wonderful renditions on this board; now thanks to you I know a little about his musical background.

Getting back to the discussion, I also think it's a good idea to talk about compositions in various languages and the level of difficulty with pronunciation. While dwelling on the topic, rememeber seeing a composition in four languages (something called a maNipravALa hIram, I guess like lalita navile's compositions) that would test the performer's ability in this regard.