Cleveland Aardhana: A Counterpoint

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 23 Apr 2008, 09:10

Dear VK,
Not only Very Funny but Relevent too! a Rare combo! vkv

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 23 Apr 2008, 12:13

Dear VKV,

Thanks for that very kind reply. It does answer my question.

And Mr Uday shankar..........................why is your name Uday_shankar and not Udayshankar.............................dont contradict urself..........

Cheers,
CK.

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 23 Apr 2008, 13:29

Coolkapali: proper punctuation and formatting of your posts is a courtesy to other forum members. Please try to understand the meaning behind Uday's post instead of being facetious. Thanks.

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 23 Apr 2008, 14:50

Prashanth,

The dots only indicate the state of mind and it does convey some meaning to the careful reader.........anyway fault finders will never give it up as u can see in this thread......Just let me be......after all a few dots.......and i dont think it makes reading very difficult........if 5 more fellow members feel tat way....i will consider your suggestion.

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 23 Apr 2008, 15:46

An underscore is considered to enhance readability. C and Database programmers use it all the time as a word separator instead of space. So, Uday_Shankar is technically ok.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Apr 2008, 16:42

It seems a shame to waste time here arguing about such things, but a number of forums ban posting in SMS abbreviations and with dot separators. It is lazy and looks bad, quicte apart from being so sort of Eglish punctuation, so you see what you actually communicating?!

sbala, programmers use _ not to_enhance_readability_for_surely_it_doesn't --- but because their compilers and interpretors will the parse the under_scored word as one, not two words.

In all these things, although our media may be very modern, it is generally the old ways, established over centuries of typography and grammar, that work the best

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Apr 2008, 16:43

...and see how dreadful my spelling/typing is <Blush>

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 23 Apr 2008, 17:34

I would love it if coolkapali stopped using ............

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 23 Apr 2008, 17:46

Nick,
you have interpreted my post literally. its a compiler issue at its root. When space is not an option, underscore is the accepted default. And I doubt if logins allow whitespaces meaning Uday Shankar is probably not a valid login (again its a technology issue). In that case, Is UdayShankar more readable than Uday_Shankar? I certainly find the latter easier on the eye. It all depends on the context.

Anyway, I agree that sms language should be avoided even if the mind is on the verge of collapse. Sorry for the diversion. Over to Cleveland.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 23 Apr 2008, 18:50

Yes, I did interpret your post literally: I do not have any issues with Uday's login name!

As it happens, this system will accept spaces (see my ID), but I make no complaint about people using _ or - or space in their name; that would be like complaining at a person's own choice of how to spell their own name! I am Nick-H elsewhere, and I think I have used Nick_H at times too.

Yes, I guess we should get back to Cleveland. I think I seem to have a knack of either causing or prolonging off-topic diversions in the forums I frequent <another Blush>.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Apr 2008, 18:59

With trivia flooding in perhaps it is time to revisit Raju's recommendation ......

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 23 Apr 2008, 21:54

Dear cmlover,
You may be right! I decided to get involved in this forum because I thought lots of good ideas will emerge. It is a matter of opinion what has emerged! I leave it to the moderator & his judgement.....vkv

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 24 Apr 2008, 08:34

Dear cm lover,
I have noted down your thoughtful suggestions. & will present it to CAC. I will wait a few days before I RESPOND MYSELF- my personal reactions-. Thanks for your active interest.vkv

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 24 Apr 2008, 12:27

vkv sir,
There is an option for every thread called "printable view" where the entire discussion of all pages is shown in a screen so that you can print it , so that all posts are all collated together. This makes it easier for you.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 24 Apr 2008, 20:29

Dear Rajehnat,
Thanks very much. I will use it. vkv

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 25 Apr 2008, 01:41

To be more precise, it is the Printable version that appears at the top right hand corner of the page that you need to click on.

yourfavoriteartist · Post by **yourfavoriteartist** » 25 Apr 2008, 02:29

sbcricketfan wrote:Cleveland aradhana can not claim insolvency any more; they are making money big time.

Really? I'm assuming that you are making this assertion based on your deep knowledge of the Aradhana's finances. Given the reality that you are not intimately acquainted with the finances of the Aradhana, let's take a quick look at some "back-of-the-envelope" calculations.

Sources of cash:

Sustaining Sampradhaya: Let's say that 50 kids participated in Sustaining Sampradhaya. At $1500 a pop, that works out to $75,000.
Ticket Sales: You pointed out that the event doesn't draw a large audience - let's assume that tickets are sold (on average) for $15 and that 10 programs are ticketed with an average attendance of 200 people per concert. That's another $30,000.
Competition Fees: $50 per competition. Let's say there are a total of 300 aplications. That's $15,000.
Donations: Don't make me laugh. People don't donate if they're charged for tickets. Let's assume that each attendee donates $20. With 1500 unique attendees, that makes $30,000.
Corporate Sponsors: Let's assume they gave $100,000.

A grand total of $230,000

Costs:
Airfare: 50 artists x ($1800 per ticket + $1000 per visa) = $140,000
Accomodation: 50 rooms x $100 a night x 10 nights = $50,000
Auditorium: $1000 a day x 10 days = $10,000
Artist payments: $1000 per artist x 50 artists = $50,000

The total has already crossed $250,000 and I haven't considered the costs of food for the artists, FREE food for all attendees on the first Saturday, the cost of the sound system, travel within the US and a host of other costs.

Since I have no access to the Aradhana's finances, I make no claim that these are accurate costs, but they are, at the very least, reasonable. Your arguments are not. They are very poorly thought out when viewed charitably and they are the obnoxious rants of an angry person when viewed dispassionately.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Apr 2008, 02:47

The CAC must be crazy to be running such a loosing enterprise year after year

But then, to parody Pope:
Love of CM to madness sure allied
Thin bounds do their realms divide

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 25 Apr 2008, 02:58

Dear Y F A S( CONTRACTION OF YOUR NAME HERE!- by the way its a great name!)
You are right on! The details are actually WORSE than what you have intelligently estimated but you have hit the proverbial nail on the head!. I am trying to get them myself- tho' a member of the CAC I have not been involved in detail -as I KNOW FOR A FACT it is a fire fighting operation as far as the MONEY part is concerned and it has to be raised one way or another for the Festival to be held.
When I GET ALL THE DETAILS I will summarize them for every one. At the moment I consider them fixed costs if the Festival has to be held & I am trying to concentrate on HOW TO IMPROVE THINGS FROM THE ATTENDEE'S POINT OF VIEW as many views of unhappiness at various levels have been expressed. I am assuming the Festival is a good thing to hold! I will duly start the "Bavathi Bhikhshasam Devi" phase later on when I HAVE A HANDLE IN DETAIL MYSELF.vkv

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 25 Apr 2008, 03:09

cmlover,
You are absolutely right in characterizing the CAC "crazy"; The interesting thing is once you start adding things algebraically one can try to juggle different things in the hope & search for the Holy Grail of ZERO! Not losing the mythical shirt is the name of the game but this process creates interesting results in the meanwhile......It justifies attempts at Global Optimization as well as M.Koku's "Parallel Universes" concept. vkv (You can look upon it as another variation of the puzzle: Can the finite(mind) comprehand the infinite?.Maybe adding finite plusses and minuses can at least get one to Zero?!)

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 25 Apr 2008, 05:40

dear vkv
I appreciate your sentiments. As long as you are getting feedback here or through email it is Ok. We have to be careful that no personal attacks are made and names bandied about. This Forum is for the promotion of CM and not for venting personal frustrations under a cloak of anonymity. As you have stated individual cases of miscarriage of justice should be addressed directly to you and the CAC. We do appreciate your frankness and the little anecdotes of how volunteers are pitching in at all levels. Especially all of us appreciate the commitment of VVS to CM both physically and materially. All of us also appreciate the free distribution of the Music Lessons which will benefit innumerable number of youngsters all over the globe. cm,

I AM EXPRESSING MY ASSESSMENTS BELOW EACH OF YOURS WITH NOS. LIKE 1. ETC. vkv

May I also make a few recommendations:

1. Your CM advisory Panel (CM experts) be time limited so that there is a turnover of vidvaans from time to time. The panel may also include youngsters who know the pulse of the younger generations

The CM advisory panel consists of both experts & non-experts and is not a formal group. The Vidwans are hard to come by for various reasons; The non-experts are just rasikas who attend concerts throughout the year. Again ANYONE pretty much can recommend & suggest ANY CANDIDATE. The group collectively considers each case & as the total number in each category is known & limited makes a choice. The pulse you are talking about is an integrated response over age groups. The person with any DATA carries greater weight. So it is a variable & varying group whose inputs decide the choices.

2. These experts may also be chosen from the different regions of SI (apart from Chennai to include Karnatka, Kerala and Andhra)

Unfortunately things may be skewed in favour of Chennai because (like THE STATEMENT: If you can make it in new york you can make it anywhere) that appears to be where the ACTION is. We do not know how to go about rest of Tamil Nadu looking for talent. Remember the whole activity is VOLUNTARY & persons from outside have to somehow be noticed in Chennai by the many organisations there. Actually ALL the famous artists from ouside of Chennai either move there or make ENOUGH of an impression in Chennai- BMK, NEDANURI, VOLETTI, SHEIKH ETC ARE TYPICAL EXAMPLES- to make it in this arena.

3. You may also start including some HM in the program and competitions so that our youngsters may have a total exposure to Indian Music though the emphasis will be on CM. Further in many areas in NA, CM teachers are not available but HM teachers may be available and we may like to migrate those students into CM by encouraging them to participate at Cleveland.

I feel we have enough difficulties covering CM ITSELF! Do not know how to proceed practically on this!

4. The CAC also may have contacts (?links) with MA, AIR, Thiruvaiyaru, Hamsadhvani, JayaTV (margazi and navaratri utsavam) etc to recommend up and coming NA performers (both youngsters as well as adults) who may be included in their programs.

We do have contacts. But these organisations have their own AGENDAS. They may listen on a personal basis- Xrecommending Y etc- but it does not work on an organisational basis.

5. Most of our NA cities have a CM cultural association and to my knowledge they seldom host NA performers. This is sad. CAC should act as a liasson for good NA performers to tour NA so that they are better known locally. And perhaps we can even arrange VCD's available of good performances sold at nominal costs (since many will perform for the love of CM and not for profit)

This has been a PROBLEM AREA since 1960 because the various cultiral associations in my opinions have continued to be parochial & narrow in their outlook since 1960. In my view its no different than my days when if you are from Andhra you cannot get a job in MADRAS etc. I am from Madras!

6. Last I would encourage the youngsters to participate vigorously in this Forum exchanging ideas and participating in the discussions. We can also implement if there is interest a 'face loading' program in the Registration Profile so that they may be better known within NA when they move around .

I am all for this. I am actually in favour of youngsters participating more. They are fresher at least in terms of "Baggage" they bring!

Folks

Do discuss these ideas and suggest additions modifications if any as you feel.

I wish people will seriously discuss these wonderful proposals & suggestions. vkv

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Apr 2008, 06:39

Thanks!
Now let us hear from our Rasikas!

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 25 Apr 2008, 06:58

5. Most of our NA cities have a CM cultural association and to my knowledge they seldom host NA performers. This is sad. CAC should act as a liasson for good NA performers to tour NA so that they are better known locally.

I think that would be a great idea....Young NA artists already know each other pretty well, but in terms of cleveland helping arrange concert opportunities besides their own localities, I think that would be really useful for promoting NA music.

Perhaps on the Aradhana could have on their website the telephone, location email, etc of NA artists who have played in regular concerts (and have therefore passed some bar/standard set) so that local groups around the country could contact these musicians (vocal, violin, mridangam, etc).

I think this would be a very do-able first step to promoting NA musicians within NA. The listings could be grouped by location around the country, to further aid organizers .

ajit · Post by **ajit** » 25 Apr 2008, 07:38

When I was the cultural committee chairperson at the Sri Venkateswara Temple, Pittsburgh(2004-06), I compiled a list of NA artistes whom I could fall back on for all categories and I have invited some of them to perform at the temple for varioius occasions. The one problem may be budget to get artistes from West coast to East coast etc. So compiling this list fully may be helpful to begin with.

ajit.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 25 Apr 2008, 08:58

Dear Ajit & mri-fan,
I can try to get the details for those who have performed at CLEVELAND. But I feel there are lots of OTHER VERY CAPABLE ARTISTS residing in N.A. who are known LOCALLY. The CAC is not aware of EVERY ONE because its geographical distribution itself is skewed. I for example live in Los Alamos,New Mexico chosen for its remoteness for the Manhattan project!! we shd. come up with a list of of the artists who wish to be included in a MASTER LIST of Available artists; We can come up with a questtionnaire & if we prepare a similar list of organisations also we can publish the list so BOTH groups can know who is around & who can do something. Right now it is a VERY VERY LOCAL network! vkv

komalangi · Post by **komalangi** » 25 Apr 2008, 09:01

I have not followed this thread in right earnest. However, I have a few questions that I am trying to get my head around. Please ignore if I am not making any sense.

1. Is organizing carnatic music concerts/tours/festivals in north america a profitable/break even or loss making venture?
2. If the cleveland aradhana runs into losses, why do they continue to organize these events? A voluntary initative is an honourable idea but running it consistently at financial losses does not make smart business sense.
3. If the organization is looking to an internet forum to somehow inject ideas to revive the financial status of the venture, it is like throwing darts in the dark.
4. Typically, if an organization has existed for over 30 years or so, you would expect it a steady state with respect to solvency. The organization may/should very well have done a post-mortem on where things may have gone wrong.
5. Unless there is clear long-term plan and financial strategy it might well be worthwhile to consider taking the hard decision of closing shop, hard as it might seem to digest.

Having said that, who am I to comment. All I can wish is that the organization manages to find an angel (investor) to bring back the glory days. I am taking nothing away from the all the hard work done by the organization now and in the past.

Good luck.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 25 Apr 2008, 09:05

k,

this thread was started by people mentioning some complaints about the aradhana. Sri VKV was nice enough to make it a point to consider what people were saying. The cleveland aradhana is not soliciting help at all

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Apr 2008, 09:20

Komalangi,
Points taken, but the business here is music--and not business.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 25 Apr 2008, 09:24

vkv43034 wrote:Dear Ajit & mri-fan,
I can try to get the details for those who have performed at CLEVELAND. But I feel there are lots of OTHER VERY CAPABLE ARTISTS residing in N.A. who are known LOCALLY. The CAC is not aware of EVERY ONE because its geographical distribution itself is skewed. I for example live in Los Alamos,New Mexico chosen for its remoteness for the Manhattan project!! we shd. come up with a list of of the artists who wish to be included in a MASTER LIST of Available artists; We can come up with a questtionnaire & if we prepare a similar list of organisations also we can publish the list so BOTH groups can know who is around & who can do something. Right now it is a VERY VERY LOCAL network! vkv

I agree that there are definately other very capable artists, but I was suggesting using NA CA musicians as a starting point and then building from there with some sort of questionnaire.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 25 Apr 2008, 09:45

I have not followed this thread in right earnest. However, I have a few questions that I am trying to get my head around. Please ignore if I am not making any sense.

Dear Komalangi,
I have noticed YOU as much as anyone else here is making enough sense! In my mind EVERYTHING is fair game EXCEPT personal attacks, Naming of persons ESPECIALLY CHILDREN. The whole thing STARTED when a thread with inadequate+WRONG information about VISAS for ARTISTS FOR THE FESTIVAL was written. I DECIDED to write the FACTS as I knew them- I was in Chennai at that time- so persons who had planned to spend lots of money & time would not be given wrong information. Thi first wave was succeeded by current one where again I FELT if persons had more information they could suggest may be better answers for the many difficulties faced in running this festival. The fond hope was & is this was worthwhile; I felt that unlike 1959 when the first person I could speak Tamil was veena Balachander was in 1962 in NYC- I had to fly in from Rochester- now a days there are more than enough persons from S.India who understood & appreciated our music & culture

1. Is organizing carnatic music concerts/tours/festivals in north america a profitable/break even or loss making venture?

Loss making venture. I can attest to 50 years of organisinf carnatic music concerts.

2. If the cleveland aradhana runs into losses, why do they continue to organize these events? A voluntary initative is an honourable idea but running it consistently at financial losses does not make smart business sense.

The key word is: BUSINESS. It makes no business sense but if one is CRAZY enough to think that this is worthwhile there is a tendency to do this till your own livelihood is threatened. Not every one is SMART!

3. If the organization is looking to an internet forum to somehow inject ideas to revive the financial status of the venture, it is like throwing darts in the dark.

FRANKLY the involvement in this forum is to get feed back, improve things and if lightning strikes locating person/s who can help improve things.

4. Typically, if an organization has existed for over 30 years or so, you would expect it a steady state with respect to solvency. The organization may/should very well have done a post-mortem on where things may have gone wrong.

POSTMORTEMS are a CONTINUOUS ON GOING THING. HOPE is persons who feel strongly enough will come forward with better ideas if they feel this is worthwhile. My own involvement is due to a single statement by Swami Vivekananda who observed (paraphrasing) : No Culture or Country which does not cherish & preserve its past has no future. To me it was a very profound statement; I may be polyannish or naive but thats what has been my inspiration for over 50 years....The CAC members are not exactly young in age. I am 74 FOR EXAMPLE....

5. Unless there is clear long-term plan and financial strategy it might well be worthwhile to consider taking the hard decision of closing shop, hard as it might seem to digest.

It will automatically hasppen if we cannot find a good solution. Let me give my one personal experience why I am optimistic. When I was a demonstrator in PRESIDENCY COLLEGE in Chennai in 1956 I tried to arrange a concert for a musician :Srivanjiyam Mani Iyer who worshipped Madurai Mani Iyer( tho' he did not learn from him in Ekalaiva fashion ; He was willing to come toChennai if I paid the third class train fare from Mayavaram which I was not able to do; YET in 1971 I was able to arrange the first ever concert tour of the great Lalgudi. Jayaraman in Noth America which is what has fueled the growth of carnatic music here...

Having said that, who am I to comment. All I can wish is that the organization manages to find an angel (investor) to bring back the glory days. I am taking nothing away from the all the hard work done by the organization now and in the past.
I appreciate your GENUINE comments. I pray such a person/s indeed show up so we can present our culture & music at its best. I don't have to preach to the choir about the greatness of our land and culture. vkv

Good luck.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 25 Apr 2008, 09:55

I have not followed this thread in right earnest.

Komalangi: That will be a good idea to do that to know the history of this thread. That would have made atleast one of your questions unnecessary to ask.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 26 Apr 2008, 11:20

I don't know why people want this thread locked.

Just as the discussion gets to descend to the ridiculous much to the enjoyment of readers -- which is from Day One -- some killjoy suggests that the thread should be locked to prevent more discussions that could lead to more hours of enjoyment.

sbcricketfan has forgotten one maxim: stop digging if you are in a hole. To such a man, one should be handing out spades. Instead, sand is being poured in by folks such as yourfavoriteartistsucks. Please don't do it. I would like to see sbcricketfan ending up in China!

In this instance, I see that vkv43034 and cmlover are wittingly or unwittingly handing out spades. By asking for suggestions from the public, vkv43034 is handing out one kind of spade and cmlover, by responding, is handing out another kind. I was hoping that sbcricketfan would employ such spades to deepen the hole he is in.

I can go back a couple of years and review the fights over public projects by Indians. The Siva-Vishnu Temple in Washington, DC was almost hijacked by one group interested in imposing their views on what that temple should be. The unfortunate thing was that those who had donated $10,000 and had taken second mortgages on their houses to lend $50,000 to the temple were being dictated to by people who had put in $100! In this case, we have people who paid $50 to enter their child in the music competition trying to tell the world how the competition is unfair to their child. I will tell you how the competition is unfair to your child: your child does not have the same talent nor has put in the same level of effort as the winner. It is as simple as that. If you want a trophy for your child, go to the nearest shop selling such things and buy one for around $40; you would have saved $10 in the process.

As to the issue of not promoting North America based artists in the Cleveland Festival, I have to ask you guys a question. How many of you are willling to sponsor in your town a concert by folks who had established themselves on the Madras music scene but had to migrate to North America because of being married to a NRI? Exactly how many concerts does a person of excellent talent such as Sangeetha Swaminathan, Geetha Bennett, Kiranavali Vidyasankar, Kalpana Venkat or Anuradha Sriram have in the US? At least, they get an opportunity once in a while in Cleveland whereas you guys who are clamoring for more encouragement for NA kids have done diddly squat for such artists. However, you will flock to a concert by Sanjay Subrahmanian, T M Krishna, or Aruna Sayeeram. When you yourself show a decided partiality toward "imported talent", why should the Cleveland Festival be an exception and feature more of NA talent?

Secondly, why does sbcricketfan expect that a 10-day music festival will have a greater impact on NRI kids than the other 355 days in a year of rearing at home. If you think your kid has such great talent, let him/her make the sacrifices necessary to improve his talent and achieve recognition. Do what Roopa Mahadevan or Archana (girl from Canada whom I met on the steps of Bharathiya Vidya Bhavan 18 months back) is doing: take a break from the university and come and spend time in Madras learning from fantastic teachers. It is going to cost money in the form of air tickets and apartment rental and incidentals in India on top of losing a year or more at the university and postponing your career. But if you are not willing to make that sacrifice for your kid (nor is the kid willing to sacrifice his place in the university), do not expect the Cleveland Festival to wave a magic wand and get your kid the prime-time slot at the Music Academy during December season. People from places like Mangalore are making such sacrifices by putting up a second establishment in Madras to further the music education of their children. NRIs certainly can afford it better than folks in India but are not willing to do it. But they complain that a public function like the Cleveland Festival does not recognize their kid's superior talent. Let me tell you one thing. There are 1000 persons more talented than your kid in Madras and they don't have any recognition either. Why don't you sponsor one such person's performance in your hometown before you start whining?

If you had gone to the late Kumbakonam Rajappa Iyer's mridangam class, you would find 100 students who are better than Rohan Krishnamurthy. They are not whining that they didn't get the Yuva Kala Bharathi title. As S. Rajam once remarked, "There are 100,000 persons who can sing at our level of competence in Madras. If they don't get concert opportunities, why should I complain about my lot in life?"

Life in unfair. But life in infinitely more unfair to those who refuse to work hard. It is not different in the music scene.

If you think any organization is being unfair, do what the late S V Krishnan did. He started his own sabha in Madras, gave concert opportunities to those whom he thought had potential, and nurtured their growth. He groomed at least one musician to senior status at the Music Academy.

Go ahead and do that. Don't whine on public fora about the unfairness of the world. We the world are not interested in your problems.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 26 Apr 2008, 17:40

Very good post harimau

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Apr 2008, 17:52

Harimau
An inspired (but sardonic

post which puts a new shovel in the hands of whiners

Though vkv may get disappointed from the pointof getting suggestions for CAC he may yet enjoy and even participate in the new twist you are giving to this thread!
As Chairman Mao aptly said:
"let a thousand sabhas bloom and let ten thousand talents contend'...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Apr 2008, 20:16

Hari bOlA!
Thanks for bringing to focus (hopefully, in some cases bringing the parents to their senses) the whole business of emotional outbursts and such 'whinings'.
How very true--talents abound in India, as S. Rajam himself has said it beautifully.
You are so right about 'uLLUr mADu' (local cattle does not sell well in the local fair). The NA musicians too have to go to India to get a concert or two. Many deserving locals go without performing, all over the globe.
As you say, both the parents and the kids should be able to put everything aside in order to learn with dedication, even if it takes years.
It is possible that some parents think they can buy anything with money--teachers and opportunities to perform. There is also such impatience which impels them to make their kids perform in the shortest possible time. Hard work does not mean 'work like crazy for that concert'--it is work towards gaining knowledge and the capacity to 'enjoy' the music.
Kudos to all such parents who do that. The others, well, we hear them loud and clear!
Seriously, it is not 'how many concerts today's generation performs or how many prizes it wins' that would make the future of CM secure. It is how the present generation ENJOYS listening to CM and is inspired that count, in taking the treasure of CM with it into posterity...

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 26 Apr 2008, 23:08

cmlover wrote:Harimau
An inspired (but sardonic post which puts a new shovel in the hands of whiners
Though vkv may get disappointed from the pointof getting suggestions for CAC he may yet enjoy and even participate in the new twist you are giving to this thread!
As Chairman Mao aptly said:
"let a thousand sabhas bloom and let ten thousand talents contend'...

Dear cmlover,
Fortunately instead of Kung Fu & Yin-Yang I had concentrated on Confucius & Leo Tze( spelling may be not correct but you know who I am talking about- I don't have their permission & I am scared to write names of anyone from India-I am STOIC ( PL Don't ask me what it means!) in my approach. Though considerations of Entropy are not very encouraging Gellman's Complexity gives me slender hopes .....I thought Mao has gone out of fashion. From the caves of the famous "Two Thousand Year old Budweiser man", vkv

Dear Arasi,
i really enjoy your references like "uLLUr mADu" as it takes me back to Tamil Nadu without spending 2k for airfare etc! I am tempted to use many such APT proverbs but am desisting bec. I am supposed to be NEUTRAL- whatever that means!- Wish R.K.Narayan was around to give his take on these proceedings! vkv

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 27 Apr 2008, 02:39

harimau, that was a good post, very accurate and thought-provoking.

yourfavoriteartist · Post by **yourfavoriteartist** » 27 Apr 2008, 05:24

vkv43034 wrote:When I GET ALL THE DETAILS I will summarize them for every one. At the moment I consider them fixed costs if the Festival has to be held & I am trying to concentrate on HOW TO IMPROVE THINGS FROM THE ATTENDEE'S POINT OF VIEW as many views of unhappiness at various levels have been expressed.

There is no call to be sharing financial details of the Aradhana with anyone outside of the committee. And why should you? The CAC is not a publicly traded firm that must publish financial reports. The general public has no right to expect the finances of the Aradhana to be made public. The current donors and sponsors, on the other hand, have every right to expect that the committee will safeguard the privacy of their financial transactions. I simply threw out a "back-of-the-envelope" calculation to illustrate a point. Making that information public leads to a situation that harimau (did you spend time in Indonesia?) described in Washington, DC. A bunch of nitpickers who have donated a couple of bucks or have entered their child in a competition then start telling the committee how to run the Aradhana.

The Aradhana probably doesn't need a bunch of consultants to tell me what they are doing wrong. What they really need is money. Lots of money. I guess the committee could get more money from the attendees if they could create a better experience for them, so let's see if we can figure out what makes a better experience for the attendee.

In the meanwhile there are a couple of broad categories of the forum populace that I would like to address.

If your biggest gripe is the choice of artists represented, remember one thing - as far as the committee is concerned, see my name: Your favorite artist sucks!

If you have something useful and procedural to talk about, vkv seems to be taking this forum far more seriously than necessary. To the extent that he might do something about your suggestions.

If you love the festival and want to make it better, follow these steps.
Step 1. Calculate your hourly wage. (W)
Step 2. Figure out how much time you spend online. (H)
Step 3. Make a resolution to cut H in half.
Step 4. Multiply W and one half of H. (D)
Step 5. Write a check to the Aradhana in the amount of D.
Step 6. In order to double the benefit of that time saved, volunteer at the next festival for H/2 hours.

Now that you have contributed in multiple ways to the Aradhana, you are authorized to rant. Sit down with the other volunteers and brainstorm about issues on which you can have a positive impact.

If like our good source of entertainment here (who is digging his way to China), you are angry about something at the Aradhana, follow these steps.
Step 1. Calculate your hourly wage. (W)
Step 2. Ask your family and friends (if any) how much time you spend stewing in your anger. (A)
Step 3. Figure out how much time you spend online. (H)
Step 4. Calculate Q=W*(A+H)
Step 5. Now ask yourself this question: Is that amount Q better spent on improving a festival that makes you angry even though it provides a valuable community service or spent on your local therapist's Hawaiian vacation?
Step 6. Repent.
Step 7. Write a check in the amount of Q to the Aradhana.
Step 8. Volunteer at every subsequent festival.
Step 9. Work your way up the chain of command at the Aradhana and make a meaningful positive change.

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 27 Apr 2008, 05:59

yourfavoriteartistsucks wrote:The CAC is not a publicly traded firm that must publish financial reports. The general public has no right to expect the finances of the Aradhana to be made public.

In the USA, IRS regulations make Form 990 filings (with basic financial information) publicly available, and these forms may be obtained after a delay for submission and processing. Generally speaking, 2006 (and earlier) data for most nonprofits are easily available on the web at this time.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Apr 2008, 17:44

Releasing the accounts of CAC will convince the doubting-toms that it is not a money-making enteprise. Although we can take vkv's words for it there are bound to be those who would like to see it on black and RED. We should applaud VKV for the sincerity of his participation here and his everlasting love of CM and I am sure one of these days he will meet with the 'God Particle'

kanthimadi · Post by **kanthimadi** » 27 Apr 2008, 18:12

If you had gone to the late Kumbakonam Rajappa Iyer's mridangam class, you would find 100 students who are better than Rohan Krishnamurthy. They are not whining that they didn't get the Yuva Kala Bharathi title. As S. Rajam once remarked, "There are 100,000 persons who can sing at our level of competence in Madras. If they don't get concert opportunities, why should I complain about my lot in life?"

My be you are right. I can also add that if you walk down the streets of Vijayawada or Eranakulam, you will see a 1000 singers better than TM Krishna, Aruna Sairam and Sudha Raghunathan.Remeber a flutist called Gopalakrishnan from Kerala? He out performs Ramani and Sashank by miles. Was he ever invited to Cleveland or Chicago? No, because he has certain principles and will not compromise.
That is not the point. The point is organizers of NA should try to follow the American ideal of "quality over quantity". I can say this much. Cleveland Aradhana is a well organized (managerially) event. But the level of favouritism is astonishing. I heard one of the organizers saying few years ago" So and so does a lot of kainkaryam for us and we have to provide senior slots to him". This was in reference to a violinist from Chicago who has disppeared into oblvion since his parents have stopped "doing kainkaryam"! Earlier he is used to be all over the place.
All this must end and there is lot of potential for promoting CM in NA and also enrich the pockets of artists from India to make CM viable in India(not merely Chennai) also.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Apr 2008, 20:51

The point is organizers of NA should try to follow the American ideal of "quality over quantity".

:rolleyes:

All of us are for quality over quantity but we do not have to cast that as the American Ideal. American Ideal, if at all there is one, is competition. That may produce quality or quantity ( there are examples for both ) depending on what the consumers want.

BTW, why are you dragging quality vs quantity into this "give chances to NA artists" argument?

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 27 Apr 2008, 22:03

Dear harimau & your favourite artist sucks,
I REALLY enjoy your observations & recipes for "Salvation" whatever that salvation (not in a religious sense) implies!...Unfortunately or fortunately - how is that for being wishy-washy waffling? I claim to be neutral! I took this assignment because I thought MY BAGGAGE from my previous involvements( as organiser) with carnatic music in N.A. might have been forgotten or not known to the current crop! Anyway to be credible as well as for the genuine reason I might contribute SOMETHING POSITIVE- Hope there is not much wrong in hoping?!- I have to be NEUTRAL tho' my own personal reactions& views could be different!....Maybe we could meet sometime somewhere!....vkv

Kalpana Mohan · Post by **Kalpana Mohan** » 27 Apr 2008, 22:34

Hello everyone:

Someone sent me a link to this thread and, boy, am I glad I was informed about it.

I want to make it clear that I am NOT the Kalpana_CM who has been posting on this forum. The ONLY post I have ever made here was (in the end of March) one in which I asked who Mr. VKV was and whether he could contact me right away. (I'm a freelance writer in the San Francisco Bay Area and I was then working on an article on Carnatic music and hence my request!)

It should be pretty obvious to everyone that I'm not Kalpana_CM also because one of his/her posts also included the name of my son, Parthiv Mohan. Furthermore, I would certainly not name names. I believe that one day, all these kids are going to have to work with one another for the common good of Carnatic music. Competitions are great and all - but kids and, certainly, parents, have to look beyond these little triumphs and defeats and focus on the bigger gain, which is the advancement of the child's musicianship every time the he/she competes.

I also want to clarify that my son's guru, Anuradha Sridhar, sends a kid back to a competition only when he/she did not win a first prize in a category and we've followed through with that diligently for every kid in our school.

I strongly encourage you all to look out for the May issue of India Currents (which will be available both in print and online at http://www.indiacurrents.com) and read my article on the evolution of Carnatic music in the United States. I hope, after reading that story about the sacrifices of many wonderful people like Mr. VKV, all of us can put aside our small irritations and differences and take this music to greater glories within these United States and in India.

Kalpana Mohan (http://www.kalpanamohan.org; email me directly at [email protected] or at [email protected])

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 Apr 2008, 00:22

Dear Kalpana Mohan,
I am both relieved & happy you wrote in because I KNEW YOU WERE NOT the Kalpana_CM BUT I did not wish to get into this Forum to clarify anything because I felt I should LET THIS RIDE & answer the many parents who have written me how angry & disappointed they were at parents behaving in a highly immature fashion in private emails. As I have declared myself to be neutral & ONLY collecting inputs to improve things I STAY AWAY FROM PERSONAL ATTACKS on the part of any one. Actually I am writing personal emails to various parents who have writen me. vkv

annamalai · Post by **annamalai** » 28 Apr 2008, 00:52

So much bandwidth - a thread is about angry parents complaints - similar to my son does not get enough playing time in the kid league soccer games.

There will be disappointments, and kids more importantly parents have to look to learn how to deal with this and look beyond that. There will be discrimination, favourtism etc. part of the game.

There are examples of many great musicians who could not get the BIG awards due to these factors. TK Rangchari, Sattur AG Subramanian, Swaminatha Pillai, .....

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 Apr 2008, 01:35

Dear Sri Annamalai,
I agree with your soccer analogy & but for my current declared role of neutrality in this particular instance would have LONG AGO requested the assistance of Cultural Anthropologists specialising in transplated Indians or qualified psychatrists to intervene & help out! vkv

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 Apr 2008, 02:02

cmlover wrote:Releasing the accounts of CAC will convince the doubting-toms that it is not a money-making enteprise. Although we can take vkv's words for it there are bound to be those who would like to see it on black and RED. We should applaud VKV for the sincerity of his participation here and his everlasting love of CM and I am sure one of these days he will meet with the 'God Particle'

Dear cmlover,
As we write CERN is trying to locate it unless the court suit against them (saying the Black hole that can also be created by the Collider which they claim can swallow ALL OF US) is successful! Any way I am sure GOD will take care if this esp. as the God Particle is named after him! It is so crucial to the theory! It may end our discussions here which are reaching interesting stages of reading for the many who like to read.....vkv

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Apr 2008, 03:29

Dear VKV
remember the controversy when Suez canal was contemplated.to be built. Detractors even scared that Europe will sink by flooding from the Red Sea. And the famous quip of Ferdinand de Lessup:
"Gentlemen it is basic physics: Water finds its own level!"

Do we also have detractors here from a jealous Chennai against the success of Cleveland that one of these days Clevaland will steal the thunder of MA and other sabhas

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 Apr 2008, 03:38

cm lover,
Are you sneakily suggesting that "water finds its own level" applies to the postings here?!---Another attempt at a poor joke only thecompassionate ones like you will take in the so called "Right Spirit"? - Incidentally the water level & table prediction for Chennai is lower than Phoenix,AZ which has 25 years to go! vkv