Cleveland Aardhana: A Counterpoint

sbcricketfan · Post by **sbcricketfan** » 14 Apr 2008, 07:07

Having been an attendee at the Cleveland Thyagaraja Aradhana for the past five years I am confused as to what their mission is. No doubt they are doing a wonderful job of bringing some sort of order in what appears to be a totally chaotic enterprise. But with regards to music, the motive appears just to duplicate what a typical â€œsabhaâ€

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 14 Apr 2008, 09:59

Aishwarya Venkatarman
Suhas Rao
Smitha Krishnan
Vivek Chellappa
Ashwin Iyer
Rohan Iyer
Rajna Swaminathan
Keshav Raghavan
Sharanya Sivakumar

North American born participants in this year's Cleveland Thyagaraja Aradhana's CONCERTS (not Concert competition or Sustaining Sampradaya)

Add in Rohan Krishnamurthy, Akshay Anantapadbanan, Deepa + Divya Ramchandran,
Previous North American born particpants who have been in concert slots (and I'm probably missing some)

Karthik Venketraman has been training under Srimushnam V. Raja Rao for many years now, and has a lot of concert experience both at Cleveland and at Toronto. He is young kanjira player who has room to improve, but has earned respect based on his own merits.

I'll pass the baton to others on this board who can continue to find other flaws in your logic.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 14 Apr 2008, 10:34

As a person who has been involved in arranging carnatic music concerts in North America starting in the 1960's and also currently a member of the Cleveland organising committee I am interested in CONSTRUCTIVELY&TRUTHFULLY discussing in detail the various
observations submitted in good faith by "sbcricketfan"; However I feel this is not the proper forum to discuss his sweeping remarks as well as conclusions. In terms of economics it will be obvious to any one who has tried to organise any tours of North Americs that it is a money losing proposition. I can personaslly attest to the fact that I lost more than 5000 dollars in the seventies in just 3 tours I arranged for just one group. I will be happy to discuss in great detail every misgiving, criticism etc if the gentleman /lady emails me at [email protected]. I extend this invitation to any one else who wishes to discuss anything that would improve our attempts to present the best in our culture here. vkv

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 14 Apr 2008, 13:13

arranging concerts in chennai can be a bigger money-losing proposition !!!!

:P:D

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 14 Apr 2008, 18:45

mri_fan is right. Some other thoughts...

1. "artistes from India" accompanying the winner, etc..
The "honor" for the winner is about being accompanied by "professional" musicians, whether from India or NA. That's the distinction.

2. Karthik Venkataraman, carrot, radish, etc..
Karthik's a fine khanjira player who plays with great sowkhyam and has earned a good reputation in NA. It's quite common practice that when senior artistes travel to remote destinations, upapakavadyam accompaniment is provided by local talent. Daucus carota not involved here

.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 14 Apr 2008, 21:01

..and you can add me, haha

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 14 Apr 2008, 21:26

When greats like Srimushnam Raja Rao and Dr. N. Ramani have attested to (and requested) Karthik's accompaniment, I dont see why sbcricketfan's comments "in good faith" should be given any weight. Perhaps sbcricketfan should be informed of the tireless service Karthik does for the Aradhana on various other fronts - its a wonder that he even agrees to accompany given those commitments. Find me another sharp, well-trained, concert-level kanjira accompanist in North America who so readily agrees to volunteer all of his time to the organization of such a large undertaking and in the midst of all that, manages to receive encomia for his sensitive and disciplined kanjira accompaniment from the most eminent of vidwans. Sometimes I feel as though it is Karthik's misfortune, as an artist, that he is connected with organizers of sabhas, because it enables misinformed critics like sbcricketfan to suggest that he has come up only because of his associations - but I can say for sure, having known him closely for many years, that Karthik has earned his place as a kanjira vidwan through hard work and dedication to the art and to his guru. Enough said.

Ashwin

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 14 Apr 2008, 21:31

I feel saddened to see the misery of 80 plus musicians freezing in Cleveland.

That's a tall assumption. With all due respect, you have no basis for saying that.
I had conversations with all octogenarian musicians at the festival this year and I think they all had a great time. Most were touched by the hospitality and the warmth of the people in North America.

And finally, what is wrong with creating a piece of Mylapore in the American midwest? I don't get to go to Mylapore often enough, and getting to listen to these musicians here is a great thing for people like me.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 14 Apr 2008, 21:36

Just like we used to have one post lambasting about SK choice every year, we have one of these every year about Cleveland. It almost always is from someone who "registered the day before". Enough already!

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Apr 2008, 00:01

Just a reminder!
Views expressed by the Forumites are their own and DO NOT represent that of the Forum per se. The poster is personally responsible for the facts and figures they cite and above all the 'chastity' of the language since this is a 'decent' public Forum. Feel free to express your views without any moderator interference making sure that your contribution is in the interest of enhancing and promoting CM. Personal attacks or slander will not be tolerated. If you have issues relating to particular individuals which is personal better deal with them through personal email. We are concerned here only with general issues. Thank you!

Bhindi · Post by **Bhindi** » 15 Apr 2008, 01:50

Now Now sbcricketfan, what a misguided soul you must be. Who said a 1'oclock slot is terrible. If you were sent 4th down to bat in cricket does that mean you are a terrible batsman. Please desist from such inference. I heard Karthik perform. He had both talent and grace. Your posting definitely reflects a pang of anger mixed with jealousy. Grow up and please do that soon. Any bitterness you may have with the aradhana committee for not letting you or your children perform , take it up directly with them. If not this year, may be you will receive a chance next year.

sramaswamy · Post by **sramaswamy** » 15 Apr 2008, 02:02

[quote="sbcricketfan"]Having been an attendee at the Cleveland Thyagaraja Aradhana for the past five years I am confused as to what their mission is. No doubt they are doing a wonderful job of bringing some sort of order in what appears to be a totally chaotic enterprise. But with regards to music, the motive appears just to duplicate what a typical â€œsabhaâ€

sridevi · Post by **sridevi** » 15 Apr 2008, 03:37

I have been wanting to write about the "sustaining Sampradaya " for a while now.

While I did not pay 1200$ to participate in the event ( neither can I since I am a lot older than the cut off age

I am reaping the benefit of the tireless efforts of the Sundaram sir and the teachers and the students.
The online lessons on the website is a true treasure house of information for any music student and it is available for free. I have learnt many a kirthana from this venture last year and this year the set is even more educative. Priceless! is the word that comes to me when I think about these lessons. For people like me who has a few reasons to not to be able to go to class regularly and can come up with umpteen more , these lessons are a boon.

Now if the aradhana committee was intent on making $$ from their venture, it could have very well been a "paid" download. May be their efforts would have been more appreciated then.
My comments are just about the "sustaining sampradaya" since i have not, thus far, been able to attend the aradhana at cleveland.

Thank you to the cleveland committee for this treasure house of recordings.

Sridevi

P.S:
If anyone here wants to form a team to learn the navavarnas from these recordings pls email me.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 15 Apr 2008, 04:44

I want to briefly state the following facts about the Cleveland Festival which i can support with facts:

1) It is the FIRST such festival where the locals- persons living in N.America- were trained by Ramnad. Raghavan to a level they could perform on stage together. Their efforts have been praised by none other than the giant S.RAJAM himself in public in Chennai & many of the professionals who have come to Cleveland have expressed similar sentiments. They have been doing it for more than 30 years!
As one who deplores the crass commercialism now a days in Thiruvaiyaru- I have attended the Tiruvaiyaru since 1950 periodically - & who has UNSUCCESSFULLY tried to raise money for the part of Tiruvaiyaru Festival for the past decade- pl see my web sie www.vidvan.com for more details- the way the Pancharatna kritis as well as the whole morning in Cleveland truly takes me back to the fifties which LGJ has called the "Golden Age" of Carnatic Music. So I have to conclude that at least this part of the fesival is far superior to "MYLAPORE"(SYMBOLICALLY STATED) WHICH I ACTUALLY FEEL IS TRULY GREAT AS mahavishnu also probably feels along with many more persons.....

2) REG TALENT, AGE GROUP., ETC:
A) I contend that BETTER than more famous organisations in Tamil Nadu the truly great artists like Kalpakam Mami, Smt.Suguna Varadhachari, Chingleput Ranganathan to name a few have been honoured FIRST only in Cleveland & most of them are still not yet honouerd in their homeland after a life time of acheivement & service to music.
B) Cleveland has shown enormous courage in presenting artists like S.Rajam, Vairamangalam. Lakshminarayanan, Seetharajan etc among many others- relatively not "popular" as well as youngsters like U.Srinivas before they became famous.
C) EVERY YEAR they present Nadaswaram as well as Veena concerts in prominent slots which even the great organisations like Music Academy,Narada Gana Sabha do not do.
D) Cleveland has taken the lead in promoting Harikatha(including competitions for N.American youngsters) as well as Dance areas.
E) In terms of encouraging & teaching youngsters here the TRULY GREAT GEMS of our music like Prahlada Bhakthi Vijayam, Nowka Charitram, the last year's concerts where the students were taught by the leading vidwans& vidushis of Chennai, and the utterly unequalled NAVAVARNAS OF DHIKSHITHAR TAUGHT BY THE ULTIMATE IN CLASSICISM, IMUSICALITY & PADANTHARAM OF THE ONE & ONLY SRIKANTAN. JUST THIS CONTRIBUTION BY CLEVELAND SUNDARAM TO STUDENTS AS WELL AS RASIKAS IN NORTH AMERCA HAS BEEN EQUALLED ONLY BY THE LATE BOB. BROWN WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF CARNATIC MUSIC IN NORTH AMERICA. The amount of time, effort, and dedication of VVS is astounding to say the least!
F) REG. TIMES, DISTRIBUTION AMONG AGE, ORIGIN, SEX, ABILITIES ETC I REQUEST YOU TO STUDY THE ENTIRE PROGRAMS FOR THE LAST 5 YEARS. I bet you will find a pattern which is consistent & logical. I feel they have succeeded in a remarkable fashion in distributing the available talents both here & in India PROPERLY. This requires too many details that have to be discussed. I feel as it is I have written too long!
As I had written I will be happy to correspond thru' email: VKV

Kalpana_CM · Post by **Kalpana_CM** » 15 Apr 2008, 05:29

Concert Competition Winners should not be allowed to participate in Krithi, Alapana, Instrumental etc categories. After all the girl who won last year (Sahana Vasudevan) should know that concert competition is considered the highest level and should back of from junior slots!!
Winners from the past years must be made to move to the next level and not come back year after year for the same level and compete.

A system should be in place to track and stop the winners from registering year after year and winning in the exact same category.
Ananth Padmanabha Rao, Karthekaiyan Ardhanareswaram, Suhas Rao, Rasika Murali, Keerthana Sankar, Sahana Vasudevan, Parthiv Mohan, Bhargavi Ganesh, Sruthi Sarathy, Jayashree Sarathy, Srinitya Pariti, Shyamala Ramakrishna etc etc and the list goes on.... These people win every year and come back in the same level every year!

Will the Cleveland committee give us the guarantee that the competitions will be fair and violators like Sahana will not be allowed? Will they take the bold step in forcing the repeat winners to move on and not compete in the same level??
We will have to wait and watch to see if Mr VKV will hold up to his word in trying to bring about some changes in response to the grievances from people like us who pay $50 for a competition. All we are asking for is to be fair and spend some time to evaluate the entries versus winners from the last 3 years.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 15 Apr 2008, 07:16

Dear Kalpana_CM,
I have noted down your valuable suggestions. May I request you to just e mail a copy of this to me at [email protected] as I have opened a separate folder to collect every one of these suggestions; I hope to present them to the committee in time for changes to be accepted by them (I am also a member) & to be implemented for next year's festival. I have already talked to VVS about my concentrating on this aspect & he has encouraged me to pursue this area with vigour. Thanks, VKV

cz8zpk · Post by **cz8zpk** » 15 Apr 2008, 21:05

Frankly, I am at a loss to what this person is trying to complain about. As usual, I can bet that he is not contributed in any way or form (Either $ or otherwise) to uplift CM in NA. Usual traits of complainers as we see in the Corproate America.
Either ways, It was surprising to see that he did not complain about having to pay for some of the concerts or a small fee for the lunch dinner.

The other good aspects of the festival was that it started on time and ended on time for the major part. There was timely feedback which was constructive.
The participation of the NA kids both in the competitinos and also the opportunites to perform in actual concerts is great to say the least. If you check, the % of NA "content" has gradually increased at the festival...This festival is not about competing with Chennai. It is about creating a Chennai in NA.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 15 Apr 2008, 21:23

This festival is not about competing with Chennai. It is about creating a Chennai in NA.

Well said, cz8zpk.

If you are the person I think you are: Hi! and thank you for expressing your views on this forum.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 15 Apr 2008, 22:14

Critiquing constructively for improvement in future organizing of such event is important. Sbccricketfan went overboard in his criticm. So far away from India we are trying to help the process of carrying our culture wherever we go and we should not pay attention to those who criticize for criticism sake. vgv is already collecting points that need the organizers attention and corrective action. That should be the outcome of any discussion we enter into

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Apr 2008, 23:02

It is nice that VKV has offered to present the suggestions of our membership to the organizers of the CAC (Cleveland Aradhana Committee) for further action. Since he is also a member of CAC his voice will carry weight. This is a golden opportunity for Folks in NA to promote CM and construct a model which can be followed elsewhere too.

It is necessary to make constructive suggestions which are implementable .
Discuss previous (historically) so that the weaknesses and errors can be corrected. Avoid 'ad hominems'. Emphasize the positive aspects which need to be preserved. It is not necessary to pay compliments here since that can be done in a separate thread or through private emails. It is important to suggest new or changes in Formats which will improve the Aradhana and to discuss the pros and cons. We invite participation by attendees as well as prospective attendees of the Aradhana. Discuss finances to the extent of making the Aradhana viable as well as making it excellent with the ultimate goal of promoting CM. I have assumed that CAC is not a business venture with shareholders who are interested in maximizing their profits. VKV may correct me on that score. I also assume that Financial Reports are availble as public documents which can be made available without violating privacy and individual rights. We should above all entertain suggestions from artistes who have participated in the Aradhana for their suggestions for improving the format. In short my suggestion is: Try to be objective .

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 16 Apr 2008, 00:58

Dear cmlover,
I admire your ability to express what I WANT TO SAY in very concise & precise fashion. Maybe I should hire you as my consultant &scribe- I am sure I cannot afford your consultancy rates. Actually I cannot afford even my rates!(joke?)....I AM CAPITALIZING MY COMMENTS TO SEPARATE THEM FROM cmlover's comments. vkv

Member Re: Cleveland Aardhana: A CounterpointIt is nice that VKV has offered to present the suggestions of our membership to the organizers of the CAC (Cleveland Aradhana Committee) for further action. Since he is also a member of CAC his voice will carry weight. This is a golden opportunity for Folks in NA to promote CM and construct a model which can be followed elsewhere too.

YES. I WILL DEFINITELY SERIOUISLY PURSUE EVERY ONE OF THE SUGGESTIONS MADE THO' I CANNOT PROMISE WHAT THE RESULT WILL BE. ACTUALLY THE CURRENT GROUP HAS BEEN DOING THIS FOR OVER 30 YEARS & IT IS NOT OBVIOUS WHO THE SUCCESSORS ARE. ALL OF US SHOULD SERIOUSLY COME UP WITH A MODEL THAT IS INDEPENDENT OF A SINGLE FORCE LIKE V.V.SUNDARAM HOLDING THE WHOLE EFFORT TOGETHER. I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH PRACTICALLY ANY GROUP THAT HAS TRIED TO DO SOMETHING TO PROMOTE OUR MUSIC&CULTURE SINCE 1960 BUT I MUST CONFESS I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE ANSWER IS!

It is necessary to make constructive suggestions which are implementable .

I TOTALLY AGREE.

Discuss previous (historically) so that the weaknesses and errors can be corrected. Avoid 'ad hominems'. Emphasize the positive aspects which need to be preserved. It is not necessary to pay compliments here since that can be done in a separate thread or through private emails.

I FEEL IT WOULD BE HELPFUL IF NAMES & PERSONALITIES ARE NOT THE FOCUS OF ATTENTION. INSTEAD IT WOULD BE HELPFUL IF THE WHOLE ATTEMPT IS BROKEN DOWN INTO VARIOUS ASPECTS. FOR EXAMPLE SOME MAY BE MOSTLY INTERESTED IN THE CONCERT ASPECT. SOME ONE ELSE MAY BE INTERESTED IN THE STUDENT COMPETITION ASPECTS. FINANCIAL ASPECTS MAY BE OF INTEREST TO SOME OTHERS ETC.

It is important to suggest new or changes in Formats which will improve the Aradhana and to discuss the pros and cons.

PLEASE DO THAT. IN MY VIEW THAT'S THE KEY. I WOULD APPRECIATE IF I AM EMAILED AT: [email protected] I NOTICE A RELUCTANCE TO DO THAT. THEN AT LEAST LET THE VIEWS BE EXPRESSED HERE.

We invite participation by attendees as well as prospective attendees of the Aradhana.

YES.

Discuss finances to the extent of making the Aradhana viable as well as making it excellent with the ultimate goal of promoting CM.

I AM PERFECTLY WILLING TO DO SO AS I AM AWARE OF THE DETAILS TO A GREAT EXTENT & CAN OBTAIN THE DETAILS IN AREAS
I AM NOT INVOLVED IN CURRENTLY ALSO.

I have assumed that CAC is not a business venture with shareholders who are interested in maximizing their profits. VKV may correct me on that score.

IT CERTAINLY IS NOT. IT IS A NON-PROFIT OR NOT FOR PROFIT- I DO NOT KNOW THE CORRECT JARGON. THERE ARE NO SHARE HOLDERS. TO BE SERIOUS AS WELL AS AN ATTEMPT AT A JOKE THERE ARE ONLY DEBT HOLDERS! THE OUTSTANDINGLY MAJOR ONE BEING VVS. THERE ARE NO PROFITS AS OF NOW!

I also assume that Financial Reports are availble as public documents which can be made available without violating privacy and individual rights.

THEY ARE AVAILABLE TO I.R.S. ETC AS CERTAIN FORMS HAVE TO BE LEGALLY FILED EVEN FOR NON-PROFITS. HOWEVER MAKING THEM AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE IS NOT AT ALL EASY. MANY OF THE DONORS, PERSONS WHO HAVE LENT MONEY, AS WELL AS THOSE WHO HAVE TO RETURN THE MONEY DO NOT WANT THESE TRANSACTIONS TO BE IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. IT IS TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE AS THEIR DESIRE TO BE ANONYMOUS HAS TO BE RESPECTED.

We should above all entertain suggestions from artistes who have participated in the Aradhana for their suggestions for improving the format.

IT IS CONSTANTLY BEING DONE & TO THE EXTENT POSSIBLE BEING IMPLEMENTED. IT WILL BE PURSUED ON A CONTINUING BASIS.

In short my suggestion is: Try to be objective .

I TOTALLY AGREE.

INCIDENTALLY I AM PLANNING TO ORGANISE A PUBLIC SESSION COVERING THE CLEVELAND FESTIVAL- ITS PAST & FUTURE- AS PART OF A THEME ADDRESSING THE HISTORY OF CARNATIC MUSIC IN NORTH AMERICA SINCE 1960 IN CHENNAI DURING THE MUSIC SEASON THIS WINTER. IT WOULD BE NICE IF PERSONS HAVE SUGGESTIONS ON TOPICS THAT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED. MY AIM IS NOT SELF-GLORIFICATION BUT A PRACTICAL NO-NONSENSE NON-PERSONALITY ORIENTED EXAMINATION OF HOW TO FURTHER- AT LEAST KEEP UP WITH THE MONUMENTAL ACHEIVEMENTS OF V.V.S. & CO- THE BASE THEY HAVE BUILT UP. TO ME IT'S A MIRACLE TO SAY THE LEAST & IT IS INCMBENT ON ANYONE WHO IS SERIOUS ABOUT OUR HERITAGE TO CONTRIBUTE IN A POSITIVE FASHION. HATS THE LEAST WE CAN DO.VKV

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Apr 2008, 02:01

vkv, I have added the quote marks around quoted text. You can do the same in your posts so you do not have to capitalize your responses. To put them quote boxes, copy the text you want to quote to your post, select the text and click on the "Quote" button available at the top right, above the row of the emoticons. Thanks.

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 16 Apr 2008, 02:12

[quote]But with regards to music, the motive appears just to duplicate what a typical â€œsabhaâ€

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Apr 2008, 04:56

Thanks VKV. Your sincerity is evident. Let us get on with the business now!

Folks! Try to formulate a recommendation(s) ( R ). You may provide a brief explanation or justification or motivation ( M ) for your R. If you can provide the process ( P ) by which your R can be implemented. You may also provide a brief discussion ( D ) on the plusses of your R and its relevance to the promotion of CM in general.

Those who want to discuss your R may refer to it as ( [b} R #N [/b] where N is the number appearing on the RHS of the relevant response). You may word your discussion as for and against R#N ( F & A R#N ).

Finally these Rs can be consolidated by VKV and submitted to the CAC for appropriate actions.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 16 Apr 2008, 05:23

Dear Vasanthakokilam, Thanks for your kind "education". I will use it from now on.

Dear cmlover, Your SCHEME is excellent. I am looking forward to rasikas following the scheme if possible; More importantly I am looking forward to your inputs. vkv

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Apr 2008, 06:26

As an example I have formatted 'Always Evolving' recommendation (let me call it R#23 based on his thread number) as follows:

R Winners in competitions may be arranged to be accompanied by senior artistes.

M the concert competition is meant for young people / children who are seriously pursuing the art. Winning it doesn't imply the winner's art is equivalent to that of an accomplished or senior professional who has been on stage for many years. But it IS a great compliment and encouragement to be accompanied by such seniors in what may be virtually a debut performance.

I am adding a possible P and D

P When the master program is designed provisions be made to slot senior artistes to accompany the winners. Also provisions may be made for alternates if there be unavaoidable conflicts. Since the program is extensive it will be better if it is designed (say on an XL sheet) so that the changes can be easily implemented to avoid conflicts...

D The winner will indeed be proud to showcase his/her talents in the company of eminent artistes. With good photo-ops it will be a life-time memory for the winner whose interest and enthusiasm for CM is bound to increase. Again this will be a strong motivating force for future competitors and the spirit of healthy competition will promote greater interest and appreciation of CM in NA...

Now here is my discussion on this R.

F&A R#23 This is an excellent suggestion which can be easily implemented. I would suggest that once the winner is announced he may forthwith be introduced to the artiste who will accompany him so that he/she can have a practice session so that there may be no nervousness or unanticipated errors. It will give an opportunity for the winner also to get suggestions from the accompanist in formatting his/her presentation. On the flip side there is the potential for the accompanist trying to 'push' the winner through over-enthusiasm but the risk is small since our seasoned seniors know where to stop and where to encourage and where to coverup errors if any...

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 16 Apr 2008, 10:41

[quote][quote]Always_Evolving
Member Re: Cleveland Aardhana: A CounterpointBut with regards to music, the motive appears just to duplicate what a typical â€œsabhaâ€

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 16 Apr 2008, 19:28

Do we maintain a suggestion/complaints box in the hall for the audience to give their input?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 16 Apr 2008, 20:11

F&A R#23 Based on your discussion of the feasibility of senior artistes accompanying the winner, I have the following comment. I can understand the 'Voluntary' nature of the artiste in the implementation. It is nice that you have made it public so that participants know for sure that it is beyond the control of the members of CAC. Being so, will it be possible to assign the 'voluntary' artistes to the winners at random (lottery method). This will avoid any accusation of 'selection bias' on the part of the CAC. The artistes also must know that relatives and friends of the CAC do not receive any preferential treatments. Since every participant is paying at some level for the participation it is imperative that the selection and further treatments of the winners be all above-board and open. I notice this has been primarily the 'apple of discord' for the participant community and the source of major complaints in the past. 'Jumping the queue' using contacts is a common practice in India and that is not one 'sampradaya' that is needed for us in NA

Folks

let us not talk about creating a Chennai/Mylapore or even Thiruvaiyaru in NA. Let us create (as one of you said) a Cleveland in NA worthy of emulation so that Chennai and other international centres may use it as a model. It is not the money that matters; it is the process that matters.
VKV wrote:

INCIDENTALLY I AM PLANNING TO ORGANISE A PUBLIC SESSION COVERING THE CLEVELAND FESTIVAL- ITS PAST & FUTURE- AS PART OF A THEME ADDRESSING THE HISTORY OF CARNATIC MUSIC IN NORTH AMERICA SINCE 1960 IN CHENNAI DURING THE MUSIC SEASON THIS WINTER. IT WOULD BE NICE IF PERSONS HAVE SUGGESTIONS ON TOPICS THAT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED.

I suggest that he may present a paper on how the whole thing got organized starting with a sparse SI population step-by-step highlighting the pitfalls and how they tackled them so that many more centres Internationally (even in South India) may start promoting CM using 'Cleveland' as an object lesson. If necessary we may need to clone VVS, VKV... as well

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 17 Apr 2008, 01:12

cm lover
F&A R#23 Based on your discussion of the feasibility of senior artistes accompanying the winner, I have the following comment. I can understand the 'Voluntary' nature of the artiste in the implementation. It is nice that you have made it public so that participants know for sure that it is beyond the control of the members of CAC. Being so, will it be possible to assign the 'voluntary' artistes to the winners at random (lottery method). This will avoid any accusation of 'selection bias' on the part of the CAC. The artistes also must know that relatives and friends of the CAC do not receive any preferential treatments. Since every participant is paying at some level for the participation it is imperative that the selection and further treatments of the winners be all above-board and open. I notice this has been primarily the 'apple of discord' for the participant community and the source of major complaints in the past. 'Jumping the queue' using contacts is a common practice in India and that is not one 'sampradaya' that is needed for us in NA

R: See above
My comments: YES. This is an implementable scheme. However there is "mental" pecking order about which senior artist shd. accompany which winner at what level. Like the proverbial Some are more equal than others tho' every one is equal etc. This in principle can create its own problems esp. with the winners. Unless persons have found OUTRIGHT injustice may be its a good idea to leave it to the organisers & the artists themselves to make the choice as the whole thing depends on CONFIDENCE??
I understand the complaints about crowding, lack of good size rooms, lack of communication etc. These are being addressed & I am waiting for more parents to either email me or write their suggestions for improvementts here so I can address the issues after my own discussions with those who have been running the competitions.
Reg "selection bias" on the part of the CAC I make these observations: 1) To my knowledge excepting two- who i suspect may be in their fifties- the rest are all above 60 at least & do not have children or grand children who compete. The same applies to the two who are in their fifties.Also the judges are VOLUNTEERS & vary from year to year. They do not know anything most of the time whose students or relatives are the contestants. They neither have the time or the interest in pushing any one over another. I would like to understand what is meant by "jumping the queue". Till parents write more specifically I am at a loss what to say. From my enquiries on the question of repeat WINNERS which was one issue raised in this forum by Mohan I made enquiries- I myself have not been involved in the competition aspect before; same is true of every CAC member except one & I can vouch for his sense of justice- & I find the following is the way Repeat winners syndrome arises:
First the previous Winner is kept separate & a new winner is chosen each year & given whatever "award"(I don't know what it is!) that pertains to the category. Next the previous winner is judged & if they emerge as a winner after the first round of competition where a NEW Winner is chosen already they will be recognised as a winner also. That is TWO persons are recognised as winners if the previous winner beats this year's choice. This is felt to be fair as it does not discriminate against any one. The CAC totally depends on the judge to decide who is best & stays away from judging. In a similar fashion even in choice of artists CAC heavily depends on SENOR ARTISTS & VETERANS OF THE CLEVELAND FESTIVAL LIKE DR.N.RAMANI & Srimushnam Raja Rao as they are the "experts"

suggest that he may present a paper on how the whole thing got organized starting with a sparse SI population step-by-step highlighting the pitfalls and how they tackled them so that many more centres Internationally (even in South India) may start promoting CM using 'Cleveland' as an object lesson. If necessary we may need to clone VVS, VKV... as well

I intend giving 1) A historical overview including the role of various individuals as well as agencies ( like the positive role of the U.S.Consulate etc). 2) I was going to give a brief account of the econonmics as well as other aspects not in great detail. This is because I was planning to discuss in detail the CLEVELAND EXPERIENCES in the Cleveland part of my account. Does this sound right. I like FEED BACK from ANYONE who has ideas on how I shd. spend my time.....vkv

sbcricketfan · Post by **sbcricketfan** » 17 Apr 2008, 01:36

At the outset, public figures and public bodies must be prepared to face criticism. To say that onlyâ€

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 17 Apr 2008, 02:05

Show me friends who are aghast at Karthik playing, and I'll show you flying pigs. Of the 45 some concerts, he played for 7. Hardly a huge number. I wonder why your concern is with him only . Why don't you have a problem with the accompaniment by founding fathers of the Cleveland Aradhana, Cleveland Balu? That to me suggests that there's clearly something else that you're jealous of.

No children were denied a concert opportunity because of Karthik playing kanjira, so your whole point at the end is ridiculous.

Here's what you need to understand. Of that long list of young accompanists, not many played for senior musicians. The only one I'm aware of is Bala Shankar, a young mridangam player from Austrialia, who played mridangam with Sri Manargudi Easwaran for the second concert by Kalpagam maami.

So yeah, it does happen. And what you need to understand is that Karthik Venketaraman started by playing for concerts at the Cleveland Aradhana in those similar time slots. He started off playing for non-senior musicians, and has consistently impressed musicians with his talent. As Ashwin said, it's almost a shame that he's on the committee because that leaves him open to people like who, who really, have no idea what they're talking about, pass judgment.

Everyone has opinions, but that doesn't mean that yours is well informed in any way.

The last five years have seen NA born musicians starting to perform at Cleveland. Many NA born artists have made their mark. You just aren't aware. Most of the musicians listed above have played throughout the US and in India.

Rohan Krishnamurthy, Rajna, and Aswhin/Rohan have all WON AWARDS FOR THEIR PLAYING IN INDIA.

Rohan won the title of Yuva Kala Bharathi, which is one of the most prestigious awards a young musician can make.

Try to be informed when you make an opinion

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Apr 2008, 03:08

dear sbcricketfan
[quote]At the outset, public figures and public bodies must be prepared to face criticism. To say that onlyâ€

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 17 Apr 2008, 03:16

No children were denied a concert opportunity because of Karthik playing kanjira, so your whole point at the end is ridiculous.

well said, mri_fan.

komalangi · Post by **komalangi** » 17 Apr 2008, 03:48

MA slots (especially SK) were decided if one was on the good side of Semmangudi. Navarathri concerts feature Kerala artists prominently. Ramanavami concerts in Blore give preference to Karnataka artists. Cleveland features family members of organizing committee in prominent roles. So what?? Who says everything has to be a democratic process?

Eventually, the marketplace decides if one is good or not? And life isn't fair. People in NA should know that better than anyone else. Remember capitalism!!!

Cleveland has a unique way of doing things and a faithful array of followers. If one does not like it, move on to other pastures. There aren't shortage of opportunities.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 17 Apr 2008, 07:00

What is that goal is the main question

I woudl also like to see a Mission statement from CAC.

What is required is transparency, fairness, no adherence to nepotism and willingness to involve a larger section of the interested persons in organizing such a grand event.

I agree. They have come a long way. Let us first appreciate the great service that they render to CM in NA where none existed before. In a way we all have a stake in the success of the CA enterprise. We should all collectively contribute as CM enthusiasts for its success with a sense of belonging so that future generations may look back with pride on us and be grateful. Perhaps VKV can outline a plan as to how each of us can contribute through CAC towards a greater awareness of CM among youngsters and adults in NA. Seriously minded enthusiasts may even opt to join the CAC and perhaps VKV can outline the process.

HERE ARE MY PERSONAL REACTIONS:
1) The main goal is very simple & straightforward. It is to encourage, promote & present the BEST- this is a subjective area- in our music & culture to persons in North America. The basic problem is while this kind of Flag, Motherhood & Apple pie statement is usually laudable to the point that its obvious the implementation is where the Rubber meets the Road.
This organisation came into being as a result of the enterprise, initiative & total commitment of Cleveland V.V.Sundaram. Actually almost all the persons involved initially were local organisers in various locations in North America who were 8-5(which usually translates to 7-10 in practice) professionals in NON-MUSIC areas who had with their middle class income somehow arranged various concerts etc. The initial organisation called East-West Exchange metamorphosed into organisations with various names- I my self had quit from this activity for several years for personal reasons of career, raising my son etc- but the core continued to remain Cleveland Sundaram, Toronto Venkataraman, & Cleveland Balu. Of course their wives & children pitched in almost like a family activity. Over the course of more than 30 years this grew up into the organisation which exists to day with a HUGE number of volunteers who do thankless jobs in Chennai, India as well as in North America. Either the volunteers themselves locate needs they can help with or in proven instances with passage of time they contribute in specific areas.
The point I am trying to make- where is cm lover when I need him?- is that there is no grand corporate organisation with very specific rules, roles, pecking order etc. Out of necessity- VVS in Chennai & Toronto Venkataraman in Toronto take care of all the UNBELIEVABLE WORK needed to get the artists to come here with technical advice from Stalwarts like Ramani&Raja Rao. Cleveland Balu & his wife Gomathi handle all the Cleveland arrangements needed including the fooed. I was asked to help out by becoming a member of CAC as they felt I could be of use in some fashion & I am trying to do so to the best of my abilities. IT IS A PURELY & TOTALLY VOLUNTARY ORGANISATION. Consequently there are good & bad points in this structure. It is not a monolythic organisation.
I personally do not believe that anyone is saying things to project negative images on anything. So let me skip the part about nepotism , fairness, transparency etc. Since I do not understand these criticisms fully ONE of the reasons for my arranging a meeting- I will be paying the expenses myself- with inputs from all of you is to discuss answer & allay such negative implications. The fact is: The amount of work needed to do this job is too huge for a few persons to do a perfect job. LOTS & LOTS of volunteers are needed and there is MORE THAN ENOUGH TASKS that need to be addressed. As a practical matter with possible volunteers from all over the country & globally spread also there will be no time to meet & many things will have to be decided by email, phone calls etc with the newer volunteers bowing in many instances to the veterans. I myself consider my self as a junior tho' I have enough experiences& efforts over 50 years. I feel the Cause of presenting, preserving, & propagating our culture suprcedes any one getting the name, fame & kudos etc.
So without repeating platitudes & discussions which are long & boring let me request those who are interested in VOLUNTEERING to contact me at [email protected]. I am maintaining a separate file for this purpose. While this forum is needed & does a fantastic job from the point of view of efficiency its not necessarily the most practical medium. I can spend the time & mutually may be we can find things every one of you can contribute to this effort to satisfy the needs & requirements of the efforts.
I again wish to emphasise that all of us have to spend most of our time with our personal lives. These efforts out of necessity can only take the place of a hobby & hence satisfaction& involvement are most crucial.

cm lover:
I agree. They have come a long way. Let us first appreciate the great service that they render to CM in NA where none existed before. In a way we all have a stake in the success of the CA enterprise. We should all collectively contribute as CM enthusiasts for its success with a sense of belonging so that future generations may look back with pride on us and be grateful. Perhaps VKV can outline a plan as to how each of us can contribute through CAC towards a greater awareness of CM among youngsters and adults in NA. Seriously minded enthusiasts may even opt to join the CAC and perhaps VKV can outline the process.
Right now because of the Historical Evolution of the Cleveland Festival as well as the CAC there currently exists a bunch of persons- I am not one of them tho' I try to do my bit based on my convictions to the cause of our culture thru' music etc- who are absolutely needed JUST BECAUSE OF THEIR LOCATIONS& ROLES. Anyone who is willing to be convinced about this if they are not convinced can contact me. I am quite convinced it will be very easy for me to convince why they are absolutely needed. What the status will be say after next 3 years no one knows & it either has to evolve successfully or perish. Every one of these persons in crucial roles right now is not exactly in the prime of their youth. So persons interested & convinced its a worthwhile thing shd. seriously consider how they can contribute. IF I am asked to decide their roles in this we would be duplicating the U.S.Workforce experience of more than 90 percent mismatch!.....
I look forward to further discussions as well your concrete suggestions we can discuss using cm lover's excellent concrete scheme. vkv

kns · Post by **kns** » 17 Apr 2008, 10:35

Kalpana_CM,

(here we go again. Another one who "registered that day" just to vent and spread false information)

What is wrong you see in somebody who won a competition in one category competing or allowed to compete in a different category next year? Thats what the kid that you are referring to as "violator" did. She won the vocal concert competition last year. She competed in other category(violin) this year, she was not allowed to compete in vocal again this year. This is the procedure followed in other kids' cases as well that I can tell i.e you are not allowed to participate in the same category that you had already won. Please get your "facts" right before posting something.

Also, please do not post names like you did of all those kids, in a public forum like this. If you have anything personal against them - which you seem to based on the tone of your email - please take it up with them/their parents or organizers directly. Please do not use this forum to vent on those kids and to spread incorrect/false information.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 17 Apr 2008, 21:48

Dear EVERYONE,
As I had stated before:
1) If the person/s email me about whatever their complaints/suggestions are I will log them, try to reach the proper persons involved- I am acting like a neutral person trying to keep a log, report & I am confident CAC will do its best to correct the situation if its fair & doable- & report the results also to the persons involved.
2) As is clearly obvious from the remarks of kns, there are disagreements between various persons on FACTS & NAMES OF CHILDREN ARE BEING BANDIED ABOUT WITHOUT BEING SENSITIVE ETC. I have not been involved as I wrote before in the competition part which is why I thought I would be the proper person to study this problem & see what can be done.
I again urge persons to write me at [email protected] Thanks, vkv

Kalpana_CM · Post by **Kalpana_CM** » 18 Apr 2008, 07:54

KNS - This is FYI directly from the girl in picture.

see page 2 - cleveland aradhana 2008 discussions - author sahanavasud

As the parent of the girl who won the concert competition(vocal) last year
and participated in 3 categories(Vocal kriti, Violin Kriti and concert compettion violin)
this year, I would like to clarify this:

This was what I understood from the organizers that they would like to do to ensure fairness which I thought was quite nice.When prizes were decided in the categories she participated, first she would be set aside. Among the remaining contestants, they will choose first, second and third prizes. Then they will decide where she fits, if at all she fits. This may result in multiple first,second or third prizes depending on where she falls, but no other child is deprived of the prize because of her.

The organizers also told us that she can not participate in vocal concert competition any more.

For the record, she got a second prize in vocal-kriti, special prize in concert compettion violin and no prize in Violin Kriti.

Cleveland aradhana in general and the compettitions in particular inspire my daughter very much. We attended the aradhana for the past seven years, out of which we stayed for all the 10days for 5 years. I have many anecdotes about her musical inspirations during the festival about which I would not want to write about in a public domain at this point. As a parent, I would like do to anything that inspires my child to pursue more music as long as it is not illegal/immoral/unethical.

At a personal level, I don't give any importance to these competitions and prizes, as I consider music as an art that requires
a lifetime of dedication and winning/losing does not matter at all in the long run. Still my child competes because
1. She wants to compete
2. She is really inspired after that to do more.

I am not regular reader, So I may not post any replies,sorry about that.

====================
coming to names, it is already in google search, if not how can anyone remember any of these names...just search google, cleveland aradhana winners and you also will find these names and many more

==============================

Not to deviate from the topic:
Let the committee follow the rules it sets up - it is posted in their website that concert competition winner cannot participate...and period!
Committee should also introduce a rule that if one gets a first or a second prize, they have to move on to the next level.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 18 Apr 2008, 08:37

If you have a competition it should be open to all (past winners included) to participate. Imagine an Olympic race where the previous winner is excluded. I am sure the other cricket teams will love it when Australia is excluded from the next World Cup!

IMHO, just because the contestants are children, it should not make a difference. If a kid comes 2nd in Grade 7 school exams, he can expect the same competition from the 1st placed kid in Grade 8!

If this is a problem, lets not bother with competitions at all. Most Thyagaraja Aradhana functions invite competition from all with no judgement made.

sbcricketfan · Post by **sbcricketfan** » 18 Apr 2008, 09:20

"When greats like Srimushnam Raja Rao and Dr. N. Ramani have attested to (and requested) Karthik's accompaniment, I dont see why sbcricketfan's comments "in good faith" should be given any weight."
What else do you expect from two people who are part of the whole organization or are dependent on the organization for their own participation.In fact as an organizer, Karthik would be setting an example by not opting for such openly favoured concert chances but take part in concerts given by local musicians as a sign of encouragement. Many musicians from India have told me that they never thought Kartik is fit for a senior slot yet. He has good training no doubt, but no sign of serious practice. Without that, it is presumptous to accept that he can just go on stage and play with Guruvayur Dorai, Vellore Ramabadran and Ramani.

" Out of 45 concerts Karthik played only in 7"
The issue is not in how many he played. Look at the list artists he played for. All very senior artists at very prime slots. I challenge these artists to honestly admit that Karthik was accomodated by their own will and if so, ask him to play in many venues during their tour of NA.

" Rohan has won awards in India and he has won the Yuvakalabharthy Award"
I wonder how much this was owed to Cleveland Aradhana! I did check his website and he appears to be a prodigy who has certainly been part of Cleveland but doing a lot more of other stuff. May be he can clarify if his success is all due to Cleveland or how much is without it.

On a different note, my statements on the 80 plus artists being tortured by asking them to come to Cleveland in winter is again vindicated by what is happening to Sri Vellore Ramabadran. I pray for his sppedy recovery indeed. But Cleveland or any NA organizations for that matter should be very considerate while inviting old and artists with health problems just to prove a point. I was pained to see this year the troubles that Kalpakam Swaminathan went through to survive the ordeal of the festival. In fact Mr Sunderam even announced that he has to thank " Mr karthik Venkatraman for making the visit of Kalpakam Swaminthan possible since he has beel suggesting her name for the past four years". Pray, why didn't you heed to his advise and get her when she was four years younger

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 18 Apr 2008, 10:38

At this point, your arguments are becoming so ridiculous that I think that Karthik must have accidentally stepped on your toe in Cleveland this year and you are mad that he didn't apologize.

Something like that, I guess

You need to realize that Karthik is a STUDENT of Raja Rao. Hence, I think he is more than able to decide when Karthik should play with him. Believe it or not, teachers often have their students play with them in concerts. Sri Babu, a student of Guruvayoor Dorai, played WITH HIM for two concerts. Guess what, by himself, he probably wouldn't have been given the chance to play for Sri Srikantan and Sri Neyveli Santanagopalan. Please point out the difference.

"Many musicians from India have told me that they never thought Kartik is fit for a senior slot yet. He has good training no doubt, but no sign of serious practice."

That's just slanderous, and it seems pretty obvious that as your arguments are falling, you're just resorting to making ridiculous statements that you can't possibly support.

"I wonder how much this was owed to Cleveland Aradhana! I did check his website and he appears to be a prodigy who has certainly been part of Cleveland but doing a lot more of other stuff. May be he can clarify if his success is all due to Cleveland or how much is without it."

You're shifting your argument as you're proven incorrect. You argued that NA participants in Cleveland's aradhana have not had success in India ,but you've clearly been proven to be incorrect.

Rohan has been going to Cleveland for a long time, and been playing for concerts there for the past several years (at least 5). Your argument is moot. The point is that the Cleveland Aradhana allowed Rohan some exposure as well as some motivation to continue improving. These two goals are critical to what the Aradhana's goals are, especially when it comes to NA musicians.

Your argument about How much of his success is due to Aradhana is both unmeasurable and irrelevant. Your argument is really flawed. The point is that Cleveland is a starting point for many performing NA musicians, and that cannot be argued against.

And I think blaming the Cleveland Aradhana on Sri Ramabhadran's poor health is just despicable.

You really are just an embarrassing person.

coolkapali · Post by **coolkapali** » 18 Apr 2008, 16:53

WOw....wat a difference between the lot who stay in India and the lot who stay abroad. We here in India too see so many such issues cropping up, but not a single person opens his/her mouth to protest. Well, just an observation. ....

sbcricketfan · Post by **sbcricketfan** » 18 Apr 2008, 19:41

I am really sorry if an aspersion has been cast that I am attacking one person (Karthik) for "stepping" on my toe. Nothing can be farther from the truth. I have no, repeat, no personal score with any one, least of all Karthik with whom I share little. I also salute his efforts in oragnizing the aradhana. The issue is about a pattern that emerges, a disturbing pattern where favouritism and nepotism and fear of loosing an invitation to USA among Indina artists, overshadows the very purpose of the aradhana. As they say, justice must not only be one but also appears to be done. Let us resolve to to achive that. As a beginning, let the senior musicians from India agree to perform during week days in the mornings and after noons. Let the "prime" slots be allotted to NA artists and "lesser" known artists from India.

vanajan · Post by **vanajan** » 18 Apr 2008, 20:36

Kalpana(_CM) Mohan,
I choose to pass your name calling of my daughter ,your personal opinion about what is considerded the highest level and moving on etc etc, except for the comment that you might want to consider being more careful in your future name callings if any, as legal problems may be just around the corner.

But, I would like to see where exactly it is posted in the website that says

concert competition winner cannot participate

AFAIK in their website,
a) all the competitions except concert competition have the following rule
Begin Quote
People who will be performing a concert in this Aradhana, or who have performed a concert in a previous Cleveland Aradhana are not eligible to participate in the competition (group concerts organized by the Aradhana Committee do not count towards this restriction).
End Quote

Long timers to Cleveland would know this rule existed(except group concerts exception within brackets) even before concert competition started in 2005. One can't apply this rule exactly as it stands to concert competition, because it will make the current concert competition winner ineligible for any other competition because of first line "People who will be performing a concert in this Aradhana". So the concert competition winner any year will become ineligible for any other competitions in that sameyear.

b)
The concert competition has this rule:

Begin Quote
People who have performed a concert in a previous Cleveland Aradhana are not eligible to participate in the competition.
End Quote

But it is silent on different categories like violin,Veena etc.

So we chose to ask the organizers about their intentions and we were told that my daughter can
participate in any category except concert competition vocal. We also came to know about their results judgement policy.

BTW, what exactly is your problem in my daughter participating? In any case,please feel free to
work with organisers privately instead of posting it in public forum. Whatever that is decided by the organizers is fine by us.

You may have the last word.

Vanaja.

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 18 Apr 2008, 21:12

sbcricketfan wrote

The issue is about a pattern that emerges, a disturbing pattern where favouritism and nepotism and fear of loosing an invitation to USA among Indina artists, overshadows the very purpose of the aradhana

Your posts are repeatedly about Karthk so I don't understand the "pattern" emerging at all. It is actually a fairly common-place gesture for vidwans to ask amateur Kanjira or other upapakkavadyam among sabha-organizers to accompany them. To my knowledge even my father has had this privilege as an organizer decades ago. Rather than some kind of threat on the organizer's part it is a bit of an indulgence on part of the vidwans. In this case I would say Karthik's playing is at a sufficiently high level too. I am told he takes his art very seriously. Having another full-time profession he probably cannot pursue concert opportunities at a larger scale, say in the Chennai music season. However he is known to accompany artists visiting upstate New York -- where he lives -- quite regularly.

What, pray, is the pattern? The implication that the organizers pretty much say "Perform with one of us on upapakkavadyam or ELSE..." is downright offensive to all concerned.

There have been several instances where honorees couldn't travel to Cleveland and the aradhana committee honored them at special functions in Chennai. Perhaps the octogenarians are willing to come all the way simply because they believe the aradhana is worth the effort?

Yes it is a good thing for any organization to introspect and re-prioritize based on what is the purpose of the initiative. By all means ask for the Aradhana committee to introspect, to reconsider whether its good for octogenarians to travel in winter etc. But repeatedly making claims that artists are being threatened that their invitation to Cleveland rests on allowing Karthik to accompany them only distracts from your purpose.

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 18 Apr 2008, 21:56

sbcricketfan wrote:What else do you expect from two people who are part of the whole organization or are dependent on the organization for their own participation.

Do not diminish the musical integrity of these great vidwans, just because you have a tendency towards wild speculation.

sbcricketfan wrote:In fact as an organizer, Karthik would be setting an example by not opting for such openly favoured concert chances but take part in concerts given by local musicians as a sign of encouragement.

Karthik plays for local musicians all the time, whether it is in Toronto, Buffalo, Cleveland, or other cities to which he is invited. Very often he plays for students giving their maiden concerts - and when probed why he does this, the answer has always been that it is important to encourage younger artists, and that "we are all students in the end". Do not speculate on his motivations. There is also no basis for you to recommend that he "not opt" for openly favo(u)red concerts.

sbcricketfan wrote:I challenge these artists to honestly admit that Karthik was accomodated by their own will and if so, ask him to play in many venues during their tour of NA.

I personally know of many such instances. My own guru has requested Karthik's accompaniment. Would you like to question that?

Now dont get me wrong - all criticism leads to progress. I hope you can become more progressive from our criticisms.

Ashwin

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Apr 2008, 22:43

sbcricketfan wrote:The issue is about a pattern that emerges, a disturbing pattern where favouritism and nepotism and fear of loosing an invitation to USA among Indina artists, overshadows the very purpose of the aradhana. As they say, justice must not only be one but also appears to be done. Let us resolve to to achive that. As a beginning, let the senior musicians from India agree to perform during week days in the mornings and after noons. Let the "prime" slots be allotted to NA artists and "lesser" known artists from India.

sbc, I am curious if you are taking in any piece of data at all that Ashwin has provided regarding Karthik. Or you consider everyone to be part of this grand conspiracy or you consider Ashwin also to be part of this presumed close-knit clique?

Also, Do you know what will happen if NA artists and "lesser" known artists from India perform in the evening and the senior artists perform in the morning and afternoons. Rasikas will adjust their schedules so that they attend their favorite artists or complain voceferously that this does not make any sense. So the so called "prime slot" moves to mornings and afternoons. ( This is all hypothetical, assuming that rasikas can adjust their schedules ). If rasikas can not adjust their schedules, they would not show up for the evening concert either and so as a result the overall attendance will drop. That is not good for anyone. Road to disaster is paved with good intentions.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 18 Apr 2008, 23:22

Good Point VK!
We do not want to Kill the Golden Goose

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 18 Apr 2008, 23:40

I think Manakkal Rangarajan and RK Srikantan performed in the morning slots at Cleveland this year. That's two maestros in the morning.
Hope it satisfies sbc's requirements!