Rendering of Kritis

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

jayaram,
Take a look at OD46, OD47, OD48, OD4A, OD4B, OD4C entries
I have checked these, the vowel part is preceding the consonant - as given by me
കെ കേ കൈ കൊ കോ കൌ ഖെ ഖേ ഖൈ ഖൊ ഖോ ഖൌ ഗെ ഗേ ഗൈ ഗൊ ഗോ ഗൌ ഘെ ഘേ ഘൈ ഘൊ ഘോ ഘൌ
These letters were actually typed in the editor here - not pasted.
Can you please check again?
Last edited by vgvindan on 29 Nov 2006, 11:57, edited 1 time in total.

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

Shri Govindan,
Apologies for putting you thru all this hassle. I changed my language settings to include Indic languages, and now these letters appear ok. I followed instructions at the Wikipedia site below, as per gn.sn42's suggestion and it works fine now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... ic_scripts

Thank you for the wonderful work you are doing.
Last edited by jayaram on 29 Nov 2006, 13:55, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

Which of the following renderings are correct and currently in vogue? I request persons knowledgeable in Telugu/Kannada/Malayalam to kindly clarify.

जिञ्चु जिङ्कु जिण्टु जिन्तु जिम्पु
जिंचु जिंकु जिंटु जिंतु जिंपु

జిఞ్చు జిఙ్కు జిణ్టు జిన్తు జిమ్పు
జించు జింకు జింటు జింతు జింపు

ಜಿಞ್ಚು ಜಿಙ್ಕು ಜಿಣ್ಟು ಜಿನ್ತು ಜಿಮ್ಪು
ಜಿಂಚು ಜಿಂಕು ಜಿಂಟು ಜಿಂತು ಜಿಂಪು

ജിഞ്ചു ജിങ്കു ജിണ്ടു ജിന്തു ജിമ്പു
ജിംചു ജിംകു ജിംടു ജിംതു ജിംപു
Last edited by vgvindan on 30 Nov 2006, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.

ramakriya
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Post by ramakriya »

vgvindan,

For Kannada, (and AFAIK for Telugu as well), the second line is the right way.

-Ramakriya

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

First line for Malayalam.

kalgada78
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Post by kalgada78 »

and second line for Telugu

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

That's interesting - looks like Kannada and Telugu use the 'pulli' ('M' sound?) for the conjugations, while Malayalam (and I'm sure Tamil too) use the 'corresponding' tag for the conjugations, i.e. 'M' for 'Pa', 'N' for 'tha' etc.

Sanskrit seems to allow both ways of representation.
Last edited by jayaram on 30 Nov 2006, 23:45, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

I know Tamil follows the first method - as per jayaram, Malayalam too follows the first method; Kannada and Telugu follows the second method. What a grand confusion for transliterators!
Last edited by vgvindan on 30 Nov 2006, 23:54, edited 1 time in total.

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

Can the Kannadigas/Telugus clarify one point: even though your languages use the bindu, the implied sound still follows the main consonant sound, right? E.g. 'biMdu' would still be read as 'bindu', yes?

Govindan - on a slightly unrelated topic, I have never understood the difference between the two 'na's in Tamil. Other than the rules about where they can occur in a word etc. do they have any difference in sound at all? To me this has been a classic example of a language that uses an extra alphabet to represent the same sound, but at the same time does not have alphabets to capture an entire range of sounds, e.g. kha, gha etc. Talk about inefficient design!
Last edited by jayaram on 01 Dec 2006, 00:08, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

jayaram - the answer is yes bindu does not change underlying sound (see the thread on single transl. scheme for discussion on this).


Arun

arunk
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Post by arunk »

jayaram wrote:but at the same time does not have alphabets to capture an entire range of sounds, e.g. kha, gha etc.
Those sounds do not exist in tamizh!

But the script is ambiguous even otherwise as it uses same alphabet for ka and ga . But i believe there are rules for native words as to when it is ka vs ga: something like at the start of the word, always harder (ka), and in the middle softer (ga) unless preceded by mei etc. But these are not well established. Perhaps because tamizh has been importing words for a lo...ng time - words that dont follow this rule. Because of that you have bAvam (tamizh version of bhAvam) and pAvam spelt exactly the same way!

They (ancestors) should have extended the script long ago - but they didnt :-(. One is tempted to think bull-headedness was there even then ;);)! No flames please!

But its not like the script didnt undergo any changes either. The so called "periyAr tamizh" is now the standard and does away with special characters for (nai, Lai etc.), adopting the same logic for all "ai" variant.s I remember as a boy, when many used to be quite disapproving of periyAr tamizh as a "new bad influence". But periyAr was politically powerful and that helped acceptance. Being a small boy i felt the same (because my peers felt so). But now I think the change is a good thing - adds more structure :)

The two na's, i am puzzled as well. Although one difference is one na, when it takes a mei, becomes "nd" sound. Doesnt necessarily warrant the ambigous usage. May be lo..ng ago they had subtler differences - i have no idea.

Arun

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

jayaram,
difference between the two 'na's in Tamil.
arunk has already clarified the same.

I have high regard for Tamil language as much as I hold Sanskrit in reverence.
But if I state my opinions on the subject, I would be generating unnecessary heat which is not subject matter that needs to be discussed in this forum. Therefore, I leave it at that and accept fait accompli.

Earlier I have stated in this thread that in the Unicode, there are three extra slots for the letters 'kha', 'ga', 'gha' and similar such letters. But in an environment which is highly polarised with linquistic overtones who will listen to reason?

Bharati said "பிற நாட்டு நல்லறிஞர் சாத்திரங்கள் தமிழ் மொழியிற் பெயர்த்தல் வேண்டும்" (யாமறிந்த மொழிகளிலே ச 3) . But Bharati himself is sidelined here.

Therefore, there is no use wasting one's breath in an environment which is in no mood to listen to reason.

May God Bless this country and this land.
That's all I can say.

PS : You would understand what I have not said.
Last edited by vgvindan on 01 Dec 2006, 11:51, edited 1 time in total.

jayaram
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Post by jayaram »

Now I can understand why our sages insisted that our sacred texts like the Vedas be handed over to the next generation orally, rather than in written form! Not even today's fancy recording systems can come close to a guru reciting and the shishya imbibing the sounds and after repeated tries getting it right!

Same applies to Carnatic music, which must be why our old-timers insisted on the gurukula method. Alas, CDs and tapes have taken over their roles to some extent today!
Last edited by jayaram on 02 Dec 2006, 21:49, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

BTW, i found this interesting picture which shows how the different Indic scripts are related and how/when they diverged

Image
Last edited by arunk on 02 Dec 2006, 07:44, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

The following website also gives some interesting comparisons -
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/9594/index.html
But, among all this, Tamil stands out as an enigma. Only an objective analysis will bring out the truth - but truth is the biggest casulty amidst the din of linguistic chauvinism.
Last edited by vgvindan on 02 Dec 2006, 10:14, edited 1 time in total.

drshrikaanth
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Post by drshrikaanth »

Arun
Here is another pic showing in detail the derivations of Indian scripts.

Image

Link
http://www.engr.mun.ca/~adluri/telugu/l ... ipt1a.html

vgv- In what way are you saying tamizh stands out as an enigma?

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

drs,
give me some time put across my thoughts cogently

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

pariyAcakamA – vanaspati

I am giving hereunder the kRti along with gist of meaning –

P pariyAcakamA mATa padi-gurilO bogaDinadi

A verapuna(n)anumAnambuna vesanambuna nE gOri
zaraN(A)gata rakSaka ninu santatamunu
zaraN(a)naga (pari)

C oka munikai draupadi dvAraka nilayA zaraN(a)naga
oka mATaku vibhISaNuDu Orva lEka zaraN(a)naga
sakal(E)zvara prahlAduDu jAlicE zaraN(a)naga
hita-karuNDai brOcitivE tyAgarAjuni mATa (pari)

Gist
O Protector of those who seek Your refuge! O Lord of Everything! Are the words uttered by me extolling You in an assembly, some out of fear, some out of doubt and some out of grief, seeking You always as my refuge, sound funny to You?
When draupadi, out of fear of sage dUrvasa, sought Your refuge, calling You ‘O resident of dvAraka’, when vibhISaNa unable to bear one word of rAvaNa, sought Your refuge, and when the grief stricken prahlAda sought Your refuge, isn’t that You protected them all being Benevolent? whereas, are the words uttered by this tyAgarAja extolling You in an assembly sound funny to You?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
pariyAcakamA – this is how it is given in all the books other than that of TKG, wherein it is given as ‘parihAsakamA’ and the word ‘pariyAcakamA’ as an alternative. The words pariyAcakam and parihAsam means same, ie., ‘fun’ or ‘joke’; however, parihAsakam is a wrong usage. The word ‘pariyAcam’ is avaialble in Tamil dictionary also.
However, musicians are rendering the pallavi as parihAsakamA.

May Saint Thyagaraja Bless us all
V Govindan

Books Referred -
CR - The Spiritual Heritage of Tyagaraja by Shri C Ramanujachariar
ATK - Adi Tyagaraja Kirtanams by Shri KV Srinivas Iyengar (Telugu)
TKG - Compositions of Tyagaraja by Shri TK Govinda Rao
TSV/AKG - Sadguru Shri Thyagaraja Swamy Keerthanaigal (Tamil) by Shri TS Vasudevan and Shri AK Gopalan
Last edited by vgvindan on 07 Dec 2006, 16:20, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

zAntamu lEka - A sequel
In my earlier posting on the tyAgarAja kRti ‘zAntamu lEka’ – rAga zAma http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=964&p=3 – Post #63, I had brought out the significance of the word ‘upazAntamu’ placed at the fag end of the caraNa which is almost not noticeable unless properly connected to the pallavi.
In regard to ‘upazAnta’ I heard the song of Subrahmanya Bharat ‘Ayirandeivangal’ sung by Maharajapuram Santanam. I am giving hereunder the whole Kriti – Please refer to sixth stanza.

1. ஆயிரந் தெய்வங்களுண்டென்று தேடி
அலையும றிவிலிகாள் - பல்
லாயிரம் வேத மறிவொன்றே தெய்வமுண்
டாமெனல் கேளீரோ?
2. மாடனைக் காடனை வேடனைப் போற்றி
மயங்கு மதியிலிகாள் - எத
னுடுநின் றோங்கு மறிவொன்றே தெய்வமென்
றோதி யறியீரோ?
3. சுத்த அறிவே சிவமென்று கூறுஞ்
சுருதிகள் கேளீரோ - பல
பித்த மதங்களி லே-தடு மாறிப்
பெருமை யழிவீரோ?
4. வேடம்பல் கோடியொ ருண்மைக் குளவென்று
வேதம் புகன்றிடுமே - ஆங்கோர்
வேடத்தை நீருண்மை யென்றுகொள் வீரென்றவ்
வேத மறியாதே.
5. நாமம்பல் கோடியொ ருண்மைக் குளவென்று
நான் மறை கூறிடுமே - ஆங்கோர்
நாமத்தை நீருண்மை யென்றுகொள் வீரென்றந்
நான் மறை கண்டிலதே.
6. போந்த நிலைகள் பலவும் பராசக்தி
பூணு நிலையாமே - உப
சாந்த நிலையேவே தாந்த நிலையென்று
சான்றவர் கண்டனரே.
7. கவலை துறந்திங்கு வாழ்வது வீடென்று
காட்டு மறைகளெலாம் - நீவிர்
அவலை நினைந்துமி மெல்லுதல் போலிங்கு
அவங்கள் புரிவீரோ?
8. உள்ளத னைத்திலு முள்ளொளி யாகி
யொளிர்ந்திடு மான்மாவே - இங்குக்
கொள்ளற் கரிய பிரமமென் றேமறை
கூவுதல் கேளீரோ?
9. மெள்ளப் பலதெய்வம் கூட்டிவளர்த்து
வெறுங்க தைகள் சேர்த்துப் - பல
கள்ள மதங்கள் பரப்புதற் கோர்முறை
காட்டவும் வல்லீரோ
10. ஒன்றுபிரம முளதுண்மை யஃதுன்
உணர்வெனும் வேதமெலாம் - என்றும்
ஒன்றுபிரம முளதுண்மை யஃதுன்
உணர்வெனக் கொள்வாயே.

The purpose of quoting Subrahmanya Bharati is two fold – (1) one to bring out the similarities of approach of all those who tread the path of spirituality and (2) the following relevant quote in regard to rendering of kRtis – exactly on similar lines as stated by Kanchi Paramacharya Chandra Sekharendra Saraswati (quoted in my initial posting for this thread).

“In an article ‘Sangeeta Vishayam’ (Issues in Music), Bharathiyar rebukes musicians for singing songs of the Trinity, Patnam Subramania Iyer and others without knowing the meaning because the songs are all in Sanskrit or Telegu. Without knowing the meaning, singers are unable to sing with proper expression. He also says songs usually portray devotion and love and not other emotions like courage, anger, wonder, fear, and hatred. He emphasized that musicians should not sing songs which they don’t understand......â€
Last edited by vgvindan on 11 Dec 2006, 18:43, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

dAzarathi nI RNamu-tODi

In this season of flood of musical concerts, I consider that the following tyAgarAja kRti would be an appropriate remider.

P dASarathI nI RNamu dIrpa nA
taramA parama pAvana nAma

A ASa dIra dUra dESamulanu
prakASimpa jEsina rasika SirOmaNi (dASarathI)

C bhakti lEni kavi jAla varENyulu
bhAvam(e)ruga lEr(a)ni
kalilOna jani
bhukti mukti kalgun(a)ni kIrtanamula
bOdhincina tyAgarAja kar(A)rcita (dASarathI)

Gist of Meaning –

Pallavi : O Lord rAma – son of dazaratha! O Lord with a Holy Name! Is it ever possible for me to redeem Your debt?

Anupallavi : O Greatest of connoisseurs of music who, to the fulfilment of my desire, made me shine (even) in distant lands?

Charanam : O Lord worshipped by this tyAgarAja, who, realising that even the best poets (composers of multitude of songs) bereft of devotion, would never understand the true state of mind (of devotees of God), having been born in this kali yuga, taught to the World through compositions that, it is possible for one to attain both Worldly enjoyments and also emancipation.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes –
C - kalilOna – In the book TKG, ‘kalalOna’ is given as an alternative word and this is the word given in the book of TSV/AKG. By adopting this word, the following translation would result – “O Lord worshipped by this tyAgarAja! Realizing that those great composers who, devoid of devotion, indulge in poetical excellence alone, would never understand the true state of devotion to God, appeared in the dream of this tyAgarAja and taught him such compositions which would convey (to the World) that it is possible to attain both enjoyments and emancipation (by adopting the path of devotion).â€
Last edited by vgvindan on 27 Dec 2006, 23:11, edited 1 time in total.

Music
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Post by Music »

vgvindan wrote:In regard to other rasas – courage etc, I have already mentioned in one of the posts how the song ‘nagu mOmu’ rAga Abheri which is in karuNa rasa rendered by famous singers in the ‘vIra rasa’. How appropriate is it? Is it simply to titillate the audience?
Totally agree. Very very few artists render this item in a pace that evokes the inbuilt karuna rasa in this song. The tune undoubtedly is very catchy even if rendered fast especially in instrumental music - since the fast paced rendition evokes a sort of happy mood. But then you would have to keeps the lyrics aside to relish this mood.

Same case with Tyagaraja's 'Sogasu juda tarama'. Quite a few artists render this in a fast pace. TVS's rendition (it is relatively slow) really brings out the expression of awe that the vaggeyakara might have felt......the essence of the song as I understand is that Rama is so very handsome....is it really possible to see/experience all that beauty? Not easy to convey this sense of awe in a song. TVS sir does a great job with this. It is in one of his commercial releases.
Last edited by Music on 03 Jan 2007, 00:59, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

I have been posting Thyagaraja Kritis as blogs in MSN, BlogSpot and Sulekha. But I have been facing consiberable problems with MSN. Therefore, I have deleted my blogs from MSN Live.
Viewers may continue to view Thyagaraja Kritis as blogs in the following websites -
http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.com/
http://thyagaraja.sulekha.com/blog/posts.htm

May Saint Thyagaraja Bless us all
V Govindan

bala747
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Post by bala747 »

vgvindian: In regard to other rasas – courage etc, I have already mentioned in one of the posts how the song ‘nagu mOmu’ rAga Abheri which is in karuNa rasa rendered by famous singers in the ‘vIra rasa’. How appropriate is it? Is it simply to titillate the audience?


bala747: I have always been disappointed by almost any rendtion of this krithi. MDR's is a notable exception. The rest sound like band music and I think the nagaswaram artistes are partly to blame for the murder of this beautiful krithi. The pleading of the bard is brought out beautifully by that great vidwan. Musiri's version was for a 78rpm and hence it appeared bit rushed, but I am sure his proper version would be a treat to the ears.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

gAravimpa rAdA – ghaNTA

To-day I have posted the kRti in our wiki. I request viewers to go through the same before reading this posting. http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/garavimparada

This kRti is, sort of, running dialogue between Sri tyAgarAja and the Lord. The kRti does not have any kind of ornamentations found in some kRtis like Ela nI daya – aThANa – which people appreciate for the beautiful words. If it is true that this kRti (Ela nI daya) is one of his earliest kRtis, then this brings out only his scholarship. But the picture of real evolutionary tyAgarAja, is brought out in this and other such kRtis.
These and such kRtis in the form of dialogue with the Lord, which bring out the struggle of Sri tyAgarAja, I wonder, how the musicians would render truthfully, no matter how much they may try because the bhAva of the kRti cannot even be imagined.
For those who want to view the word-by-word meaning and language versions and meanings in Tamil may please look up the blog sites – this is being posted on 31 jan 2007.

May Saint Thyagaraja Bless us
V Govindan
Last edited by vgvindan on 29 Jan 2007, 22:38, edited 1 time in total.

S.Govindaswamy
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Post by S.Govindaswamy »

gAravimparAdA

I would like to comment as below regarding C 3: Does not rUkalosagi konna mean bought with money. 'konna' means bought. Was not the practice of paying bride-price prevalent in Andhra as in Haryana and Punjab nowadays. Konna sati is used in this song whereas konnakAntalanu
is found in mandAri rAga kriti paralOka bhayamu.
kanyAdAnam refers to bride's father gifting his daughter (treating her as property) to bridegroom.
regards
Govindaswamy

vgvindan
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Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

The kRti is posted in the website - http://thyagaraja.sulekha.com/blog/post ... vam-29.htm along with tamizh meaning.

rUkalosagi konna will roughly translate in Tamil as பொருள் தந்து கொண்ட - 'poruL tandu koNDa' - please refer to the tamizh meaning of the kRti.

The telugu word 'konu' and the tamizh words 'koLal' 'koNDu' are same. The tamizh word 'koNDAn' means 'husband'. Therefore, 'purchased' may not be a suitable interpretation - though 'konu' has a meaning 'purchase' - in any case, I would not like to enter into any sociological issues on the subject.

Regarding 'konna kAntalu', zrI tyAgarAja uses 'kAnta', 'bhAma' also to mean wife - though they have general meaning of 'woman'.

S.Govindaswamy
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Joined: 23 Oct 2006, 06:48

Post by S.Govindaswamy »

gAravimparAdA

I would like to comment as below regarding C 3: Does not rUkalosagi konna mean bought with money. 'konna' means bought. Was not the practice of paying bride-price prevalent in Andhra as in Haryana and Punjab nowadays. Konna sati is used in this song whereas konnakAntalanu
is found in mandAri rAga kriti paralOka bhayamu.
kanyAdAnam refers to bride's father gifting his daughter (treating her as property) to bridegroom.
regards
Govindaswamy

vgvindan
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Joined: 13 Aug 2006, 10:51

Post by vgvindan »

Today tyAgarAja kRti tulasi jagajjanani - rAga sAvEri has been posted in our wiki - http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/thulasi-jagajanani

In this kRti, the following occurs in the caraNa -

sarisijAkSi nI madhyamu sakala sur(A)vAsamaTa

sur(A)vAsamaTa - sura+AvAsamaTa - it is said (aTa) to be abode (AvAsam) (AvAsamaTa) of celestials (sura).

If it is sung as surA - vAsamaTa, (by separating the words) it would mean abode of spirituous liquor.
Last edited by vgvindan on 06 Mar 2007, 19:13, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

I was just listening to CM in World Space - Artists' Highlight. tyAgarAja kriti 'nAdupai' rAga madhyamAvati (http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/naadupai) was being rendered.

(It is besides the point that though there are four caraNas only the last caraNa is usually sung) The part of the caraNa is -

I jagatilO ninnu pUjincuvArin(a)vyAjamuna brOcu (pUjincuvArini avyAjamuna brOcu)

O Lord who, in this world, protects without any motive those who worship You!

The artist rendered repeatedly 'vyAjamuna brOcu' instead of 'avyAjamuna brOcu'.

In the lalitA sahasranAma - the mother is called 'avyAja karuNA mUrti'. Obviously, now-a-days Lord also needs some motive to protect devotees!
Last edited by vgvindan on 28 Jun 2007, 23:57, edited 1 time in total.

ksrimech
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Post by ksrimech »

vgvindan wrote:'avyAjamuna brOcu'.
VGVji,

If you ask svAmi nammAzhvAr, he would call it, nirhEtuka krupai of SrImannArAyaNan. :)

Thank you enlightening us with such wonderful meanings.

thanjavooran
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Post by thanjavooran »

I hv a basic doubt. shd all the kritis be either sung or played only at a particular kalam/ gathi set by the vageyakaras. I happened to witness a dance progm recently in which the singer played a kriti at a very slow speed and the mirudangam vidwan found it difficult to fill the gap. Is there any code on this. Thanx

mohan
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Post by mohan »

A composer does not set the speed a krithi is rendered. This is up to the individual artiste to interpret and decide. The artiste needs to take into account the meaning of the krithi, the raga, tala, etc. For example, MD Ramanthan is renowned for his slow (and soulful) rendition of certain pieces.

In the case of the dance, it would have been the request of the dancer to render the piece slowly so the dancer could express certain emotions.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

The artiste needs to take into account the meaning of the krithi, the raga, tala, etc
Most important is bhAva.

rajata girISuDu nagajaku delpu
svarArNava marmamulu
vijayamu gala tyAgarAjuD(e)rugE
viSvasinci delusukO O manasA

The secrets of the treatise ‘svarArNava’ which Lord Siva tells pArvati are known to this victorious tyAgarAja; O My Mind! understand it by believing (the statement of this tyAgarAja).

svara rAga sudhA - SankarAbharaNam
Last edited by vgvindan on 09 Jul 2007, 16:10, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Post by sureshvv »

What about starting with "Manamu ledha" when it is "Abhimanamu ledha"?

I think Thyagaraja himself plays tricks to make it more interesting.

MaheshS
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Post by MaheshS »

Sureshvv -

I've *always* had douibt about Mananumledha ...

Did Swami compose it as Abhimanamuledha and singers have used their artistic right and sing "Manamuledha .. thanavadani abhi manamanmuledha .." or did he compose "Manamuledha .." to start with.

Any one has any clear ideas?

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

Please refer to http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/manamuleda
It is a nindA-stuti. Therefore, 'mAnamu lEdA' - don't You have shame - is correct. SrI tyAgarAja is playing with words 'mAnamu' - 'abhimAnamu'

sureshvv
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Post by sureshvv »

In any case today's telugu is a far cry from the telugu of Thyagaraja or Shyama Sastry. So I don't think "learn telugu" is sound advice. Learn the meanings of the songs you sing may be more appropriate - and I believe most singers however poor their pronunciation definitely learn the meaning - sooner or latter.

I have heard people bad mouth M.S. for her imperfect pronunciation of N.Indian languages but I am sure most of you will agree that we are all better off that she attempted it anyway. So let us get off the "perfection" pedastal and encourage singers to widen their repertoire.

My 2 naya paise!

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

There was a time when All India Radio and Doordarshan had news readers who go extra mile to get the correct pronunciation of any name that is foreign, but they will pronounce 'cidamabaram' as 'ciDAmbaram'. Still that situation continues in all news channels.

'perfection' is much like that - we still have contempt for what is indigenous - music field is no different - One cannot expect a Telugu to proununce Tamil words perfectly and vice-versa. But if a Tamilian fails to reproduce a Tamil word correctly - in the name of regional variation - where is the excuse?

If one can learn svara of a kRti for months together, what is the problem in learning the correct prounciation by investing one more day? But, if the guru himself/herself does not know the correct pronunciation, how the student will learnt it? In any case, learning the language is not going to solve the problem.

I remember an instance. I learnt in school that in Hindi 'sugar cane' is called 'Ikh'. When I was at MP, I went on a hiking trip and on the way I saw a sugar-cane field; I asked for a sugar cane. That fellow would not understand 'Ikh'. Then I showed him sugar cane. 'Oh, gannA', he said; then he gave me a sugar cane.

Learning the language is much like that; it is not likely to serve the purpose on a short term basis. Even then, colloquial language cannot be learnt from books - Sri tyAgarAja uses a good amount of colloquial terms in his kRtis.

How I wish musicians of today emulate MS in making a sincere effort in pronouncing kRti wordings!
Last edited by vgvindan on 10 Jul 2007, 08:58, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Govindan said, "If one can learn svara of a kRti for months together, what is the problem in learning the correct pronounciation by investing one more day?"

These are words the vocalists have to pay heed to, if they want to give their best, particularly when they sing in their own languages. Well sung words are also an important part of their rendering--just as swarAs, clear cut rAgA presentation, emotive quality, Sruti and so on...
Last edited by arasi on 10 Jul 2007, 09:18, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Post by sureshvv »

vgvindan... i think it is a losing battle... what about accents and dialects? Even Tamil kritis by Tamil artistes are sometimes rendered with an accent or their community dialect. We just have to learn to appreciate the "charm" in it and move on!

grsastrigal
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Post by grsastrigal »

I agree with Arasi. Pronounciation is very important. We can never forgive, if it is not rendered properly. We know how Yesudoss suffered a lot because of pronunciation. We know the joke of "Thaye Yasodha" and Ariyakkudi-Mahaperiyaval conversation wherin Mahaperiaval mentions the wrong usage which changes the entire meaning. Maharajapuram Santhanam was criticised for singing Devar Nama with his OWN Kannada.
Last edited by grsastrigal on 10 Jul 2007, 19:33, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

suresh,
i think it is a losing battle...
This is what differentiates great artists from kids of con'fusion'.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

sureshvv,
We have discussed the 'charm' factor several times in the past. Yes, it can be pleasing too, in a few instances.
However, to know the meaning of the song and the meaning of words help the performer with the emotional impact of the song (applies to instrumenatalists too--we know that even with percussionists, let alone violinists, their knowing the song makes the rendering even better).
It is worth emphasizing that to learn the meaning of the song and the words in it helps a great deal both for the performer and the audience.
As for pronounciation, the word can mean something just the opposite if mispronounced. Examples--dropping the 'a' in a word like anityA or anityam; resulting in something unconnected or something even ridiculous to the context.
Do we all know all the languages and their nuances? No! However, when we learn a song, just as we don't want to drift into another rAgA or tALA, we guard against verbal mistakes too.
I do hope teachers, especially of children, guide them into understanding the meaning and pronounciation of a song.
For anyone who thinks it is a difficult task, just look in the sAhityA Section! Dancers who were born outside of India, though they know the words and meaning well, want to make sure that they get it all correctly, by posting the songs on the forum (rasikapriya and others).
rAgam, swarams and tAnam are great, but without words, CM is not complete...
Last edited by arasi on 10 Jul 2007, 21:17, edited 1 time in total.

sureshvv
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Post by sureshvv »

IMHO, you guys appear to be fastidious nuts to be bad mouthing Maharajapuram Santhanam long after he is gone instead of applauding his genius and **original** contribution to the flow of carnatic music -- all for the peccadillo of mispronouncing some words from his non-native language...

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Fastidious perhaps some are, but nuts? I do not see them as such.

We consider and discuss the 'best' there can be in all aspects of music. Nothing wrong with that. Parents do not tell their children to aim only for enough marks to scrape through. Performers do not like to give a 'so so' concert by choice. RasikAs don't go to a concert saying they would be happy with a mediocre performance.
So, there is nothing wrong in our analysing how a concert can be improved upon.
I agree with you when you expect rasikAs to tone down their dislikes and gripes. CC for CM. CC for constructive criticism...

sureshvv
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Post by sureshvv »

Thank you vgvindan for the link to the lyrics.

Now can you please explain the following (may be there is a story I don't know here) --

when sugrIva (son of Sun) spoke ill of You in Your presence, out of indignation, made him King (Lord of the throne) of kiShkindA?

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

suresh,
Please refer to http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html wherein I have given explanation to these words.

sureshvv
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Post by sureshvv »

vgvindan... very nice! thank you.

kutty
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Post by kutty »

I am reproducing below translation in English of an article appeared in Thamizh in Kumudham more than 15 years back. These are the views expressed by Bombay GS Mani (is he the same Madurai GS Mani?). The ball is set in motion for members to play.
Introduction:

In the December season concerts many young artistes are going to render a few well known kritis of ThyAgarAjar and others. Bombay G S Mani, a vidhwAn having 45 years of practice and experience, is advising them, as shown below, not to sing wrongly as some of the senior vidhwAns do (who are of course, incorrigible), showing the correct place to stop:

Kriti vAtApi gaNapatim
Wrong way vAraNA......Samvara pradam
Correct way vAraNAsyam vara pradam

Kriti manasulOni
Wrong way manasulOnimar........mamunu
Correct way manasulOni marmamunu

Kriti baNTu rIti kolu
Wrong way modalainamadA........dula
Correct way modalaina madA-dula goTTi

Kriti marivERa
Wrong way taralOna nI sATi
Correct way taralOna nI saTi deivamu

Kriti nagumOmu
Wrong way nagarAja.......dharanIdu & stopping at nagumO
Correct way nagarAjadhara nIdu & stopping at nagumOmu

Kriti mAkElarA
Wrong way sAkEtarA........jakkumArA
Correct way sAkEta rAjakumArA

Kriti sItamma mAyamma
Wrong way dhAta bhara..tAdulusO...darulu
Correct way dhAta bharatAdulu sOdarulu

Kriti sItamma mAyamma
Wrong way paramEshava, shISThaparA, sharanArada
Correct way paramEsha, vashiSTha, parAshara, nArada

Kriti rAma nI samAnam
Wrong way sOda..........rugala
Correct way sOdarulugala

Kriti raghunAyakA
Wrong way stopping at raghunA or raghunAya
Correct way stopping at raghunAyakA (not raghunAyagA)

Kriti endarO mahAnubhAvulu
Wrong way rAmabhaktuDaina tyAga
Correct way rAmabhaktuDaina tyAgarAjanutuni

Kriti kAlaharaNamElarA
Wrong way stopping at kA....after kalpanAswarams
Correct way stopping at kAlaharaNam or kAlaharanamElarA harE

Kriti jAnakI ramaNa
Wrong way stopping at harE rAma jAnakI
Correct way stopping at harE rAma or at jAnakI ramaNa

Kriti kaNTa cUDumi (not jUDumI)
Wrong way stopping at alanADu sau
Correct way stopping at alanADu saumitri

Kriti rAmabhakti
Wrong way mEmAnavula
Correct way EmAnavula

Kriti cUtAmu rArE (not jUtAmurArE)
Wrong way jUtA....... murArE..........
Correct way cUtAmu.. rArE...

Kriti jnAnamosaga rAdA
Wrong way jnAnamo sagarAdA & nI nAmamu cEnAmadi
Correct way jnAnamosaga rAdA or jnAnam osaga rAdA &
nI nAmamu cE nAmadi

The above is not an exhaustive list but just for illustration only. I have also observed many senior vidhwAns committing such mistakes and also ending the kritis in "ShrI". Please note that you should not end a kriti in ShrI but it should be followed by the successive word e.g., in raghunAyaka normally it is a normal practice to end pallavi or anupallavi as 'rAjIvamunanE viDajAla shrI' or 'Adarimpa nIvE gati gAdA shrI' whereas it should end as 'ShrI raghunAyakA'. In 'raghuvamsha sudhAmbudhi chandhra' the same practice is followed by many.

In the field of CarnAtic music there is another drawback – wrong pronunciation of the words even by those who have Thamizh as their mother tongue. The main reason for this is the language itself devoid of certain letters which the other languages have like only one ka, pa, ta which do not represent the correct pronunciation when the kritis of other languages are printed in Thamizh. For this either the help of the numerals or other letters of other languages are used. My advise is to learn the kriti from someone in whose mother tongue the kriti is made for proper diction and intonation.

Unlike in olden days, the youngsters have plenty of tools to learn the kritis correctly with their proper meanings nowadays. Unfortunately, in spite of this, many do not care about sAhitya shudhdham, meaning and bhAvam. One must not only do justice to one's mother tongue but also to other languages when they sing songs in those languages by understanding the meaning of the words and their proper pronunciation in the sAhityam. This alone makes the song beautiful, electrifying, emotional as well as lively. This we call janaranjakam.

For sangItam shruti is mAtA and layam is pitA. That way sAhityam is guru and bhAvam is deivam. Unless equal importance is given to these four factors no sangItam will be divine and reaching one's heart.
Last edited by kutty on 19 Jul 2007, 12:41, edited 1 time in total.

vgvindan
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Post by vgvindan »

kutty,
You have done a great service by reproducing this article. But has this article had any effect on the generation which was trained in music after publication of this article? Regretfully, no. The musical notations written by gurus - rightly or wrongly - have become CM vEdas overriding the kRtis themselves.

I have heard new generation (popular) singers sing 'nija mar....mamulanu' and so also with other kRtis. Such renderings can be excused, but how about the distortion of total meaning in the kRti 'graha balamEmi zrI rAmAnugraha balamE balamu' by rendering as 'graha balamEmi zrI rAmAnugraha balamEmi'.

Thank God that there are still quite a few who render these correctly.

Indeed, 'of what use the grace of Lord rAma on us?'

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