Perspective on amateurs accompanying the professionals

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Dec 2010, 11:42

Amazing revelations!

reethigowla48, I bow too your superior appreciation, and take your points, and your history, with interest. I can only add that variety may be the spice of life, but it is even more so the spice of mridangam accompaniment!

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 09 Dec 2010, 14:00

http://www.mediafire.com/?fgiiqbhbh0n0gnc

The Thani is here . I did not have the heart to take away the krithi . And Sathej . I have remembered to give it another interesting name

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Dec 2010, 14:32

Just for a minute, I thought that "fgiiqbhbh0n0gnc" was your interesting name! :$

Then I clicked on the link...

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 09 Dec 2010, 14:43

@Cool ji, Lol

Those Jeremy Brett serials are indeed influential, I suppose ! Liked watching them..coming to the clip, shall download soon and listen, would be interesting to listen to a Kanjira lead..

Sathej

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 09 Dec 2010, 15:55

thimma !
What a historical clip. Thanks for sharing !

suma · Post by **suma** » 09 Dec 2010, 19:40

mankuthimma wrote:Looks like a veteran singer and a veteran violinist. What were they?

Geniuses . Without doubt . KVN and Lalgudi .
I meant to write who were they and not what were they. Thanks for the names. No wonder that Viriboni was so soulfull. Lalgudi's violin accompaniment was so sweet and cant be missed in his accompaniments.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 09 Dec 2010, 20:17

I meant to write who were they and not what were they.

Pardon me if I used the slip to push the envelope for my idol Lalgudi. |(
And for KVN who was simply beyond comparison . Watching and listening to him was pure ecstasy .
We all knew that you had written in a hurry .

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 10 Dec 2010, 08:11

mankuthimma wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?fgiiqbhbh0n0gnc

The Thani is here . I did not have the heart to take away the krithi . And Sathej . I have remembered to give it another interesting name

Mankuthimma: Thanks for the thani. It is, as it obviously should be, astounding. All classic korvais in misrachapu. And a rapidfire of several short korvais as koraipu. Remembering what Chembai joked, once after the thani by PMI and TRR (double mridangam) in one of his concerts..."Today Mani Iyer has met with failure; because his student and son has played at par with him. Even if Rajamani had not played well , he would have met with failure; since then it would have been out of his incapability as a teacher and a parent to nurture his son and student to his level" (abridged version).

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 10 Dec 2010, 08:35

Yesterday I was talking to my musician friend in Chennai; a youngster trying to establish himself as a professional musician in Chennai. When I was telling him about this thread here, he told me that the US concert organizers offered him to arrange his concert tour in US (following his application) on the agreement that they would sponsor him alone and the accompanists would be all the local accompanists (amateurs) within US. He being a serious, principled musician had to deny the opportunity as he was very particular about bringing his own (professional) accompanists from India, whom he felt could only make his concert tour a success. It was surprisingly encouraging when he told me that his own guru (a living doyen of CM) specifically advised him not to settle for the local accompanists within US, at any cost, as his Guru believed that a concert tour's success is highly dependent on the accompanists.
I think most of the practicing musicians are aware of the perils due to incapable and incompetent accompanists. I think it's high time this 21st century tradition, born out of the pretexts of financial limitations, security clearance and visa procurement, put to a full stop. There are hundreds of young, passionate, competent professional accompanying artists over in India, who should be given the task of representing CM outside the Indian subcontinent. Why not take additional pains to bring them over here instead of being complacent with the incompetent amateurs, who get onto the stage not with their merit, but solely out of their foreign citizenship and green cards.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 10 Dec 2010, 19:02

reethigowla48 wrote:"Today Mani Iyer has met with failure; because his student and son has played at par with him. Even if Rajamani had not played well , he would have met with failure; since then it would have been out of his incapability as a teacher and a parent to nurture his son and student to his level" (abridged version).

To add to that he also told "On the other hand, if Rajamani overshadowed his dad, then also Mani Iyer would have met with failure".....

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 11 Dec 2010, 00:10

Post #1 is entirely a criticism of Dr Sriram's playing. Post #11 para 1 -- again directly refers to him as the one who "invariably" accompanies. Post #14 attempts to refute Sivapriya's suggestions (relating to economics, logistics, and the social reality of having less rigorous norms) -- by saying:

reethigowla48 wrote:... why should we settle in for the bad accompanists just because they claim it their 'birth' right to accompany the touring artist, because of their long term familiarity with the artists? It is such a loose claim that doesn't have any valid meritorious grounds and it should just be stopped. It is a very intelligent monopoly these early settlers have designed for themselves.

huh? What birthright, and who claimed? And you are saying outright that it is not to do with economics or logistics, but simply a case of organizers aka early settlers promoting themselves as accompanists, by misusing their position.

Post #16 in response to Nick -- you say

reethigowla48 wrote:... I guess the organizers themselves are the accompanists in this case !(...) some people are out there who don't have any kind of personal honor/conscience or humility to accept one's defects and incapability. And when such people hold higher bureaucratic positions, they utilize the public undertakings for their personal benefits.

You can make these statements and duck claiming it is "impersonal"? Well I can also say "some people whose handles start with r and end with 48 are full of it" but please don't think I meant you.

Now in post #19 you contradict yourself all over the place. "Oh I didn't mean it specifically about him, but tell me what OTHER reason he is accompanying everyone"??! You are either attacking his integrity or not, can't have it both ways.

reethigowla48 wrote:What you are saying is that only a concert organizer is morally entitled to criticize a concert or the way a concert is organized or voice his opinions about the performance of the artists and accompanists.

No, you didn't get what I was trying to say so let me explain. As a former tour organizer I know how hard it is to get people to buy tickets or turn out in numbers (except for well known stars). I have heard repeatedly from organizers of VERY high integrity, like Dr. Sriram and Sri Cleveland Sundaram that many rasikas don't pay subscription or buy tickets, and that it is therefore a tough act bringing in concerts even to big cities like Atlanta. Most organizers in the US have played their roles year after year for a couple of decades. From your comments it certainly did not seem like you had an understanding of the issues they face.

I reiterate that I am NOT interested in a debate about theermanams and stuff like that of which you have arrogated to yourself superior knowledge and are going on ad nauseum. I am asking that you don't mix this rant up with stuff about organizers misusing their position to become accompanists. You have not mentioned a single other city or accompanist in three pages of this thread so please defend your post #16 in that light.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Dec 2010, 00:41

Hmmm... I have no idea whether or not reethigowla48 was targeting one individual. If that was the case, I have no idea whether or not it was justified.

Having no idea whatsoever about the skills, or otherwise, of any individual in the USA, that is not something that I would have wanted to debate, and it is not something that I want to debate.

If we were talking about the general state of music in the world, then fair enough. If not, then I'm sorry I joined in.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Dec 2010, 00:56

If this post is solely meant to denigrate one particular organization or individual, rasikas.org should stop this discussion from going any further

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Dec 2010, 02:40

VK RAMAN wrote:If this post is solely meant to denigrate one particular organization or individual, rasikas.org should stop this discussion from going any further

Dear VK RAMAN: Unfortunately I completely disagree with your point. You have made a generalization while discarding the importance of the issue that I raised here and conveniently forgetting the good discussions e have had till now.

Tell me, what happens when we criticize in rasikas.org, the artists right from Sanjay, TM Krishna etal; when we criticize the Music Academy; or when we criticize the audience in a concert? Those are all different forms of criticizing an individual, or an organization or a group of people. If what you have stated should be true, the whole rasikas.org should never have any posts and should just be a blank website or one just containing only euphoric praises and flattering of artists and organizations.

Your statement also sounds as though the points I have made are all totally wrong or false; if you are not sure of that by yourselves what's the point of making a verdict? Rasikas.org is an open forum to voice any kind of opinion and advocating to targeting specific posts and deleting them is tantamount to undermining the democratic spirit of this forum.
Please let me know what you think.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Dec 2010, 07:16

Always_Evolving wrote:Post #1 is entirely a criticism of Dr Sriram's playing.

Yes it is (not entirely though, as you misinterpret it). Any story/cinema/criticism needs a particular plot to start with. It's the process akin to mathematical induction. You choose a particular observation and extrapolate it to explain a general phenomenon. Since I live in Atlanta I cannot start my observation/criticism with a concert which happened in the Bay area (which I could never attend!).
Hope you got my point.
So do you have any objection with me criticizing someone's performance? I am sorry if you have; but I can't help voicing it out. I wanted to keep it general as it was not a unique phenomenon. But you seem to be particular about taking it onto a single person. So let it be so !

Always_Evolving wrote:Post #11 para 1 -- again directly refers to him as the one who "invariably" accompanies

Yes true. I really meant it when i used the word "invariably", simply because that has been the reality. The past few years I have lived in Atlanta, I have never seen any other amateur mridangam artist accompanying a professional artist. Whoever needs a clarification can see this link
http://www.ipnatlanta.net/camaga/
What's your explanation for this? (you have been consistently choosing not to answer this)
And we as members have never received any clarification (atleast verbal/informal) from the organizers for the reason for a single (incompetent) person accompanying all the concerts. This I consider a serious flaw from the organizers and lack of integrity (personal or artistic, whatever you wish to call it as). (I didn't talk about this before as it's something pertaining to Atlanta and hence I should discuss it separately instead of wasting a general rasika's time here)

Always_Evolving wrote:You are either attacking his integrity or not, can't have it both ways.

I am very clear (I can't do anything if you are not) that my intention has been not to attack someone's personal integrity. Since you yourselves are insisting upon me to talk about a particular person, I should clarify that I am criticizing the lack of 'artistic' honor/integrity; and not the 'personal' integrity. If I wrongly used the term "personal" before "integrity" it was just to denote the artistic honor which all artists are assumed to have. The honor of not preferring to get onto the stage without the proper stuff/perfection/practice to do that. I am so much clear about it. I dont know why it takes so many explanations from me for you guys to get it. If someone says that I am a bad batsman for my poor performance in past 10 games, I would make an introspection of it and if I am convinced that I am really bad, I wont enter the ground as a batsman; which of course needs some honor, Isnt it such a simple thing? Why should it be blown up into a controversy?

Always_Evolving wrote:No, you didn't get what I was trying to say so let me explain. As a former tour organizer I know how hard it is to get people to buy tickets or turn out in numbers (except for well known stars). I have heard repeatedly from organizers of VERY high integrity, like Dr. Sriram and Sri Cleveland Sundaram that many rasikas don't pay subscription or buy tickets, and that it is therefore a tough act bringing in concerts even to big cities like Atlanta. Most organizers in the US have played their roles year after year for a couple of decades. From your comments it certainly did not seem like you had an understanding of the issues they face.

I have done organization works myself before and I truly appreciate the thankless service most of the organizers to bring in concerts. You are unfortunately mixing up two different things. You, me and everyone here agree that there is a complex matrix of logistical issues to be taken care of. What I am appealing for is that these logistical issues are to be respected, but they cannot be made the pretexts/reasons for putting incompetent artists on the stage, who are not able to make the concert a success (whoever the artist be; a professional or an amateur; the organizer or a common man).
Please read my previous posts to get an idea on how the concert goes bad with an incompetent accompanist.

Always_Evolving wrote: I reiterate that I am NOT interested in a debate about theermanams and stuff like that of which you have arrogated to yourself superior knowledge and are going on ad nauseum. I am asking that you don't mix this rant up with stuff about organizers misusing their position to become accompanists.

Yea. I know you are not interested in a debate in theermanams, for your ignorance which you had admitted before, which I appreciate. But what I criticized was your forgetting your ignorance and making a denigrating statement about theermanams and mukthayis, which is in fact the real insult on art and artists and ultimately upon yourselves.

If you felt that I was "arrogating" I would like to let you know that you confuse confidence with arrogance; atleast you try to portray it so. I don't have any personality issues to say clearly and confidently what I know and what I don't know .

Always_Evolving wrote:You have not mentioned a single other city or accompanist in three pages of this thread so please defend your post #16 in that light.

Well. This is like a teacher telling a student "I will fail you in the exams because you did not brush your teeth in the morning" !!!
You are saying that since I did not give examples of other cities, my arguments are all wrong in generality or with respect to Atlanta ?
It looks like you are just challenging my foolproofness, concentrating on the minute things that I might have missed to clarify, so as to portray me as an inconsistent observer/critic. Actually I didn't want to get into this boring business of searching out for the spades and disparaging them one by one. But since you are hellbent on it, here are a few links which I remember seeing recently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWv3Am-hTRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG9mmzfOzHU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfrZHseotE

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 11 Dec 2010, 07:27

Believe me !!!!
I always had two great reasons to visit Atlanta .
Now I see I have a Third !!!!

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 11 Dec 2010, 07:41

This is without any reference to Atlanta!

There is more to the issue than the ticket I buy and seek value for money.

Frequently we read about Senior Vocalists encouraging young supporting artists to play for them, or Senior Supporting Artists offering to play for junior Vocalists. We read and admire write-ups like this:-

"Even prime vocalists like Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer, Chembai Vaidhyanatha Bhagavathar offered to put their vocal prowess aside to accompany the young lad on the mridangam and violin respectively. The legendary percussion titans Palani Subramania Pillai and Palghat Mani Iyer willingly shared their creative genius on the mridangam with Mail's stage."

As for organising Kutcheris, the organisers must be facing several practical problems, which others may not be aware of to appreciate them!

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Dec 2010, 09:08

Hello Pratyaksham Bala: Looks like you missed reading some of my previous posts, which already contian the answers for all the points you have mentioned. I will copy some excerpts for you (It is too time consuming to copy all relevant posts).

Pratyaksham Bala wrote: Frequently we read about Senior Vocalists encouraging young supporting artists to play for them, or Senior Supporting Artists offering to play for junior Vocalists. We read and admire write-ups like this:-
"Even prime vocalists like Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer, Chembai Vaidhyanatha Bhagavathar offered to put their vocal prowess aside to accompany the young lad on the mridangam and violin respectively. The legendary percussion titans Palani Subramania Pillai and Palghat Mani Iyer willingly shared their creative genius on the mridangam with Mail's stage."

ANSWER

reethigowla48 wrote:I don't have problem with amateurs accompanying professionals, as far as they are "really good". And indeed within US itself we have good number of substantially good amateurs. In fact amateur-ship has been the most significant mode by which Carnatic music kept transmitted to the future generations, without much dilution.

About young TR Rajamani playing with Mani Iyer; To prove that I am not anti-youngster or anti-amateur :tmi: ; To repeat, the issue is not about youngster, amateur or profesional (as the title of this topic misleads us into); The issue is just about GOOD or BAD, which becomes more complicated among a pool of amateur artists.
.

reethigowla48 wrote: Remembering what Chembai joked, once after the thani by PMI and TRR (double mridangam) in one of his concerts..."Today Mani Iyer has met with failure; because his student and son has played at par with him. Even if Rajamani had not played well , he would have met with failure; since then it would have been out of his incapability as a teacher and a parent to nurture his son and student to his level" (abridged version).

Pratyaksham Bala wrote:As for organising Kutcheris, the organisers must be facing several practical problems, which others may not be aware of to appreciate them!

ANSWER

reethigowla48 wrote:I have done organization works myself before and I truly appreciate the thankless service most of the organizers to bring in concerts. You are unfortunately mixing up two different things. You, me and everyone here agree that there is a complex matrix of logistical issues to be taken care of. What I am appealing for is that these logistical issues are to be respected, but they cannot be made the pretexts/reasons for putting incompetent artists on the stage, who are not able to make the concert a success (whoever the artist be; a professional or an amateur; the organizer or a common man).
Please read my previous posts to get an idea on how the concert goes bad with an incompetent accompanist.

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 11 Dec 2010, 09:30

reethigowla48 wrote:.. I guess the organizers themselves are the accompanists in this case !(...) some people are out there who don't have any kind of personal honor/conscience or humility to accept one's defects and incapability. And when such people hold higher bureaucratic positions, they utilize the public undertakings for their personal benefits .

Let me make it very simple. What I am objecting to specifically is that you have made direct reference to a particular organizer who is accompanist, and followed saying he misused his position for personal benefit. It is an attack on someone's integrity in his role as an organizer and you should withdraw it.

If you think I am disrespectful to jargon then it's much worse to be disrespectful to hardworking, service minded, upright persons.

I also invite you to rethink your take on "artistic" honor. Think of the huge number of vocalists who develop voice or other ENT problems but do sing anyway, sometimes never completely overcoming it. Some rasikas might choose to walk out of such a concert but those who stay get lots of satisfaction despite the defect. I believe almost all artists from the top stars to the mediocre amateur, are devoted to the art and spend hours daily in its pursuit. I find some performances, even of professionals with decades of experience unbearable and I often wish the organizers had chosen someone else. I might critique the output of those artists but not their integrity -- artistic or otherwise.

Of course there IS such a thing as artistic integrity. That is when someone knowingly cheapens the art. It happens all the time and we should definitely talk about it but most mediocre performances do not represent lack of AI.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Dec 2010, 09:31

Some people are misled to believe that I am against all amateurs and youngsters accompanying the professional musicians. I never made such a statement and really apologize if any of my sentences were inappropriately framed, and misled anyone to think so.
(I think we need to change the topic of this discussion to "Perspective on "incompetent" amateurs accompanying the professional musicians in foreign tours". Can anyone please suggest how I can do that?

Meanwhile please see the following videos and believe for yourselves the excellent/promising quality of the "amateur" and/or "young" artists, all living within North America, accompanying the professional musicians/amateurs.
Please believe me that I am not anti-amateur or anti-youngster; I am just Pro-quality and Pro-artistry :tmi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sad6pf01Duo (both the violinist and mridangist are amateurs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztmY_1NLrTI (Rohan Krishnamurthy is an excellent teen mridangist from Michigan)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjAO7rEHxdI (This is an amateur kid playing mridangam in Chicago. Very excellent and shows good signs of a wonderful future. Note: The singer is amateur)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-SH2IRWuxw (The singer looks amateur; the mridangist is excellent; I am not sure if he is professional or amateur)

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 11 Dec 2010, 09:41

reethigowla48:
Thanks for clarifying.
I understand and appreciate.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Dec 2010, 10:07

Pratyaksham Bala wrote:reethigowla48:
Thanks for clarifying.
I understand and appreciate.

Pratyaksham Bala: That's a kind gesture. Thank you and I am delighted :tmi:

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Dec 2010, 23:21

I was following up on the young musician called Srinidhi Sridharan (whose concert link I posted earlier) in youtube and found this video of a concert by all teenage boys and girls. What an excellent and active performance ! What a rapport between the artists; what a maturity they exhbit. The little mridangist and the ghanchira boy are both cute and hilarious ! :tmi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5Ll68zV ... re=related

We all know very well that there's a huge talent pool of young musicians and accompanists within US, most of whom are still in their teenages. We are all very well aware of this encouraging reality which is why I cannot take any more unsuccessful concerts due to the perpetually same incompetent accompanists. If I were the organizer, I would simply have one of these bright youngster accompany a visiting professional artist There are infinite possibilities immediately around us. If they have not been utilized properly till now, it definitely points towards the enormous lackluster, complacency and possibly the musical pauperism of the people concerned.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 25 Dec 2010, 13:32

Always_Evolving wrote: Let me make it very simple. What I am objecting to specifically is that you have made direct reference to a particular organizer who is accompanist, and followed saying he misused his position for personal benefit. It is an attack on someone's integrity in his role as an organizer and you should withdraw it.

Hold on: It is just because that organizer happened to be the accompanist whose performance I have criticized. Whoever that person be, regardless of him be an organizer or a common man, why cannot you make this sink in yourselves, the right spirit of calling a spade a spade? You don't really seem to be "always evolving".
Even if I donâ€™t know anything about the personal honor of that person, just from the fact that he has been showcasing extremely poor standards of accompaniment consistently over past several years, gives me the moral right to question his honor both as an artist and an organizer. He might be an extremely honorable person with respect to many other things, which I need not know at all. My knowledge about him is from the concert stage alone and him being someone great otherwise is not a defense or justification for his consistently bad performance standards.

(I apologize again to the general readers. This particular one is again a problem very much local to Atlanta and I am being forced into discussing it over here, by this fellow-rasika. But I guess there are some general points too in here).

Always_Evolving wrote:I believe almost all artists from the top stars to the mediocre amateur, are devoted to the art and spend hours daily in its pursuit.

Unfortunately it's but only 'your' belief. All amateurs necessarily don't spend "hours" "daily" to practice, which is why we are having the â€œspadeâ€ amateurs getting on the stage and spoiling the professional concerts.

Always_Evolving wrote: [I also invite you to rethink your take on "artistic" honor. Think of the huge number of vocalists who develop voice or other ENT problems but do sing anyway, sometimes never completely overcoming it. Some rasikas might choose to walk out of such a concert but those who stay get lots of satisfaction despite the defect.
I find some performances, even of professionals with decades of experience unbearable and I often wish the organizers had chosen someone else. I might critique the output of those artists but not their integrity -- artistic or otherwise.
Of course there IS such a thing as artistic integrity. That is when someone knowingly cheapens the art. It happens all the time and we should definitely talk about it but most mediocre performances do not represent lack of AI.

It is now very evident that you are trying your best to support someone of your interest. I don't have any problem with your intention.
What I can decipher from your argument is that all rasikas should put up with mediocre and utterly bad performance standards on the stage, consistently made to happen, without being questioned for ever?
Also it seems that you are clinging onto your own definition of Artistic integrity. For me, artistic integrity does imply the personal honor and responsibility of an artist, of not getting onto the stage without having done the sufficient homework or without having the sufficient skills, to give a good performance on the stage. In that respect I can surely question the artistic honor of several seniors too; for example say, TN Seshagopalan who gives concerts with extreme sruthi-misalignment. The difference with TNS is that he is simply a starlwart that his weakness in sruthi is cleanly shielded by his unhindered imagination and genius, that my questioning his honor doesn't help any point. Thus he has something great otherwise to make up his weakness, which need not be the case with amateurs, particularly the ones that we have been discussing here.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 30 Jan 2011, 02:43

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 30 Jan 2011, 10:44

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWv3Am-hTRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG9mmzfOzHU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfrZHseotE

Just to be clear, the mridangam artist you're referring to is the father of Rajna Swaminathan, who no one would claim is an amateur level.He's played well for many senior musicans over the past 25 years and has won accolades for his play without being an organizer. It's not fair to judge such people on the basis of one or two clips when they've had such a large body of work.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 30 Jan 2011, 11:03

What?

No such thing as DNFTT or calling the original poster a troll?

What happened to the usual methods of dealing with those who raise questions you consider improper or whose opinions call into question your tastes in Carnatic music?

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 30 Jan 2011, 21:34

mri_fan wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWv3Am-hTRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG9mmzfOzHU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfrZHseotE

Just to be clear, the mridangam artist you're referring to is the father of Rajna Swaminathan, who no one would claim is an amateur level.He's played well for many senior musicans over the past 25 years and has won accolades for his play without being an organizer. It's not fair to judge such people on the basis of one or two clips when they've had such a large body of work.

Well. You completely miss my point. I was not targeting the 'person' in the accompanist; but his performance, which was really bad and a total lacklustre. If you post me a concert video in which he has played good, I am ready to appreciate it. So please rectify your inclination for passing quick judgments. Also you have missed reading my posts where I have appreciated the performances of several amateurs, including youngsters. All of them are equal strangers for me and there's nothing personal I have to do with them.
I have heard Rajna's playing in several youtube videos and she plays 'consistently' good and I wish she had been put as the accompanist for Pantula Rama (concert link I posted).

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 30 Jan 2011, 21:39

harimau wrote:What?

No such thing as DNFTT or calling the original poster a troll?

What happened to the usual methods of dealing with those who raise questions you consider improper or whose opinions call into question your tastes in Carnatic music?

Harimau: I don't quite well understand what you meant here.
If you meant to say that I am calling into question the taste of others or if I am raising improper questions, it is akin to say that the rasikas.org site itself is devoid a-of any criticisms. Also I would suggest you to go through my previous posts in this thread to see how objective and meticulous I have explained this problem and given evidences.
And ( this is perhaps the most cliched sentence here) this site is for expressing one's views and criticisms and if there are opinions or criticisms you don't like personally, it doesn't mean that the person who raised it should be banned !! You are behaving no different than the totalitarian Egyptian government which first cut down the internet, then the mobile phones, wanting to control the people raising questions !!

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 30 Jan 2011, 22:03

Well. You completely miss my point. I was not targeting the 'person' in the accompanist; but his performance, which was really bad and a total lacklustre. If you post me a concert video in which he has played good, I am ready to appreciate it. So please rectify your inclination for passing quick judgments. Also you have missed reading my posts where I have appreciated the performances of several amateurs, including youngsters. All of them are equal strangers for me and there's nothing personal I have to do with them.
I have heard Rajna's playing in several youtube videos and she plays 'consistently' good and I wish she had been put as the accompanist for Pantula Rama (concert link I posted).[/quote]

The problem is that overvalue your own rash judgment. The 13 year old boy you showed is playing simply for an easy song. You're suggesting that the 13 year old is "better" because of that? Swaminathan plays better in these videos. I can find examples of great musicians not playing well for a song here or there ... but before you pass judgement you need to spend the time doing your own research.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lswaminatha ... k7X4MWmPXs
http://www.youtube.com/user/lswaminatha ... IPrePO0AE0

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 30 Jan 2011, 22:22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws3w2eLRJvU

Here, the out of tune mridangam and the hard hitting kills thisl song. So I don't think he played well here. Am I ready to say that he shouldn't accompany people? No, because I can see that in other videos he plays better.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 31 Jan 2011, 00:38

reethigowla48 wrote:
Harimau: I don't quite well understand what you meant here.

I suspect that he was actually trying to support your argument which you were making convincingly anyway. But now you really should be worried

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 01 Feb 2011, 01:14

mri_fan wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws3w2eLRJvU

Here, the out of tune mridangam and the hard hitting kills thisl song. So I don't think he played well here. Am I ready to say that he shouldn't accompany people? No, because I can see that in other videos he plays better.

Mri_fan,
You seem to be too picky, to prove your point, while you lose sight of the big picture. By giving the instances of good young mridangists I was not declaring that they should replace all the older mridangists. Just that they also need to be given opportunities in professsional concerts since the older amateur mridangists in US themselves are not well qualified to accompany.
Sri Swaminathan might be a good mridangist in his own right. But whatever you say, I can never agree that his control on mridangam, layam and "tholpattu" (you willknow what this is if you have learnt mridangam) are sufficient enough to accompany such layam-strong singers like Pantula Rama. The concert is not lifted up anywhere. He may be fine with others, with simple songs like Vathapi Ganapathim and so on; while he was not adequate for such vilamaba krithis like the Kapi javali Smt Rama had sung.
So my point is not a direct attack on him or all of his performances; but just the inadequacy of the accompaniment with respect to strong artists like Pantula Rama. I don't think he himself will have any problem admitting this weakness of his.
You can carry on this debate for ever, trying to defend the artists of you know of, while you fail to analyze the phenomenon on the whole. But it is just a futile exercise since my aim is not attacking people. I am aiming only at criticizing the inadequate performance standards of non-seasoned accompanists while they accompany professional musicians from India.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 01 Feb 2011, 01:18

sureshvv wrote: I suspect that he was actually trying to support your argument which you were making convincingly anyway. But now you really should be worried

Sureshvv:
That's for what I put the clause "I don't quite well understand what you meant here.If you meant to say that..."
So if harimau was supporting me figuratively, the rest of my post doesn't apply to him

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 01 Feb 2011, 01:28

harimau wrote:What?

No such thing as DNFTT or calling the original poster a troll?

What happened to the usual methods of dealing with those who raise questions you consider improper or whose opinions call into question your tastes in Carnatic music?

Harimau: I get your point now

Well. All those sessions have been over already. See the earlier posts for details

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Feb 2011, 06:06

What happened to the usual methods of dealing with those whose opinions call into question your tastes in Carnatic music?

Stating the obvious, that violates the dharma 'Loko Binna Ruchi'... There is a big difference between 'I do not like X' and 'you are an idiot for liking X' even if it is offered with all good intentions of preserving and promoting good music. You say idiot, he says troll

There's no accounting for taste... really.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 04 Feb 2011, 08:43

vasanthakokilam wrote: Stating the obvious, that violates the dharma 'Loko Binna Ruchi'... There is a big difference between 'I do not like X' and 'you are an idiot for liking X' even if it is offered with all good intentions of preserving and promoting good music. You say idiot, he says troll

There's no accounting for taste... really.

Dear Vasanthakokilam: I am not sure what you mean above. Let me try to clarify nonetheless. My posts are not intended to glorify the musicians I personally like and to demean the ones I don't. I don't think I need to use this forum for my personal ego satisfaction. For example, I generally don't like briga laden music; which doesn't make me conclude and write publicly that GNB, TN Seshagopal are all trash while Semmangudi, MMI etc are all the good guys. Just to illustrate that I am not playing that kindergarten game here. It is much more than what I may like and dislike personally.
What I have been talking here is about really 'bad' accompaniment by several amateurs in North America, several of whom are self-nominated onto the stage. Here "bad" doesn't mean 'bad" for myself alone; but "bad" in all qualitative and quantitative terms; wholly irrespective of all differences in individual tastes.
My complains are not about stylistic differences or minor cosmetic factors; but much more and only about their severely abysmal performance which make the concerts by top-notch professional musicians like TN Seshagopal, Ravikiran, Pantula Rama etc, totally un-hearable and dissatisfying experiences. Also need to mention that such concerts are mostly ticketed concerts. Logistical problems and financial constraints are often proclaimed as unambiguous reasons for such "self-nominations' onto the concert dias.
So my posts have not at all been about "Loko Binna Ruchi" or a 'troll questioning the taste of others', as your posts seem to conclude (if I am not mistaken)

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 04 Feb 2011, 09:09

I think Semmangudi's music itself is quite brigha-laden (I like it all the more for that

).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Feb 2011, 11:31

reethigowla48, I was referring to harimau's quip about 'usual methods of dealing with those whose opinions call into question your tastes in Carnatic music'.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 04 Feb 2011, 13:58

srikant1987 wrote:I think Semmangudi's music itself is quite brigha-laden (I like it all the more for that ).

srikant1987: No problems, if you believe so. Definitions don't matter much, atleast with respect to the issue raised in this thread. So you can substitute "Semmangudi" in my post with, say, "MDR"

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 10 Feb 2011, 08:38

What the posters here are forgetting is the economics. A typical concer has probably a budget of 1500$. Out of this one has to pay the travel and remunerations. Local hospitality is often taken care of. How can a main artist arrange a "good" pair of accompanists and still make some decent money? Most amateur artists hold good 5-9 jobs and perform only during weekends. They have no time to practice or develop. On the flip side they are willing to perform for free. This ensures that the main artist walks away with at leat 500-600 dollars, a decent money when you convert to rupees. Any protest has to come from the audience who should refuse to attend concerts with arm chair accompanists.
I have verifiable fact where visiting artists come with their own accompanists, charge as much as 2000-3000 dollars for concerts and then pay the accompanists as low as 50$. 50$ in India is 2500 rupees, much more than what the accompanists get in India.So it is a win win game.
The day a dollar becomes equal to a rupee, no artist from India will be seen anywhere near NA! That is the truth.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 10 Feb 2011, 22:44

rigveda wrote:What the posters here are forgetting is the economics. A typical concer has probably a budget of 1500$. Out of this one has to pay the travel and remunerations. Local hospitality is often taken care of. How can a main artist arrange a "good" pair of accompanists and still make some decent money? Most amateur artists hold good 5-9 jobs and perform only during weekends. They have no time to practice or develop. On the flip side they are willing to perform for free. This ensures that the main artist walks away with at leat 500-600 dollars, a decent money when you convert to rupees. Any protest has to come from the audience who should refuse to attend concerts with arm chair accompanists.
I have verifiable fact where visiting artists come with their own accompanists, charge as much as 2000-3000 dollars for concerts and then pay the accompanists as low as 50$. 50$ in India is 2500 rupees, much more than what the accompanists get in India.So it is a win win game.
The day a dollar becomes equal to a rupee, no artist from India will be seen anywhere near NA! That is the truth.

Rigveda: Thank you for this post. The remuneration for the accompanists, you mention, are so pathetic, if not surprising.
As you point out I also understand that the economics/finances play the most important role here.
See Post# 87 when I said "Logistical problems and financial constraints are often proclaimed as unambiguous reasons for such "self-nominations' onto the concert dias".
The problem is that, to repeat, financial constraint is made the sole reason by these regular amateurs to get onto the stage and escape with their sub-standard performances. This has not been a once-in-a-bluemoon phenomenon; but happens quite regularly (atleast in the city I live)--in over half of the concerts in an year. If ever someone raises a question regarding this, these amateurs (aka organizers) will pounce on the questioners with reasons of financial constraints and logistical problems. Some even go to the extent of bragging that the visiting artists actually demand for them, which is why he/she is always on the stage, with the right to exhibit sub-standard performance !! (I have first-hand evidence for this)
This is purely a misuse of power in a bureaucratic set up of of Carnatic music sabhas in NA.
I also have been mentioning that, this faulty framework of professional musicians with amateur accompanists can be made less faulty, by selecting good amateurs, which definitely needs a break up of this bureaucratic set up. Over past few years there has been a sharp increase in the number of talented youngsters in NA, who can be all made potential accompanists, solely based on true merit. For that, the philosophy of the music sabhas in NA should be changed into "promoting" carnatic music impartially (not alone in organizational proclamations, but in real practice too) instead of organizing concerts by and for the "armchair" accompanists. (thanks to rigveda for the phrase "armchair")

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 10 Feb 2011, 23:53

Out of nothing other than pure curiosity, what is your city reethigowla48?

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Feb 2011, 00:19

mri_fan wrote:Out of nothing other than pure curiosity, what is your city reethigowla48?

Mri_fan: I currently live in Atlanta, GA
You may want to take a look at my Post#65 to further quench your "pure curiosity"

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 11 Feb 2011, 02:09

Sorry for not following diligently...I almost ended up living in Atlanta a few years ago...

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 11 Feb 2011, 02:30

you're exactly right sreenadh.

Theoretically, lets say I want to organize a concert in South Alabama using the best amateur talent in NA. The cost for me to bring in a whole team of musicians would break down roughly as follows.
1) vocalist: 500 fee + 200 airfar
2) violin: 300 fee + 200 airfare
3) mridangam: 300 + 200 airfare.

that's 1700, assuming that I have a temple with a good sound system that I can organize the concert for free. At 10 bucks, I need to bring in 170 people, which is fantastic turnout, and very unlikely. What ends up happening is that organizers must use the bigger stars who they can charge 20-25 dollars, and turn a slight profit, and then use that to subsidize the NA artists..lets say I make 2000 dollars from a big successful concert. I can organize twice as many concerts using local talent that may not be up to par compared to flying in accompaniment.

The biggest problem in the country is that its almost never financial feasible to fly in competent accompanists unless we're in a area like LA, New Jersey, or Washington DC, or an area nearby where talent is wiling to drive (philly, san diego, new york city, deleware, etc).

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 11 Feb 2011, 02:39

(Sorry, mri_fan, I deleted my post before realizing someone was in the process of responding to it! From memory, this is what I posted)

Without knowing the specific situation in Atlanta, I want to make the following observation. The "talented youngsters in NA, who can be all made potential accompanists, solely based on true merit" may not wish to travel to distant cities to accompany artists, especially for the entire tour. Even if they do, they may not want to pay the ~$200 airfare per leg themselves. If this falls on the organizers, we are talking anincrease of $400 for mridangam and violin, even assuming they play for free (which is unreasonable). At $10 per ticket, we need approx 40 more rasikas in the audience for this to break even. And yes, I realize that music is not a business and we can't apply profit & loss ideas to it

But if you want sustainable organizations, things have to roughly balance out.

We try to do pretty much what mri_fan suggests - use the "star concerts" to subsidize the upcoming and local artists, as much as we can .. and most often, end up spending significant money out of pocket to keep the organization going.

- Sreenadh

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Feb 2011, 02:56

Hi Sreenadh and mri_fan,
I very much appreciate the idea of using big shot concerts to raise adequate revenue for concerts by local amateurs. I think it is one of the best ways to truly "promote" carnatic music and strengthen the value of amateur talents in NA. I am happy if you are able to do it in your city and sabha.
Unfortunately that doesn't happen here in Atlanta, and here there is only one amateur "star" playing for all professional concerts (even though Atlanta has several other amateur artists and accompanists of good competence) and we don't have the concept of concert by local competent amateurs at all

The consistency of this ill, autocratic framework was what infuriated me into starting this thread here.
Also, about the fees for amateur artists as jotted down by mri_fan: It appears very high for me. I can think of several amateurs who will be ready to perform for no fee; just the flight charge should suffice. This is not at all improbable because I myself personally know of some amateur vocalists and instrumentalists within NA, who will be ready to perform for free, as all of them are well settled here with stable jobs and unsurprisingly none of them is greedy for money

That will significantly reduce the total concert cost from $1700 to say as low as $600 to $1000 (overestimate).

Probably we should make a database in rasikas.org of all the competent amateurs in NA and their expected remunerations, so that concert organizers in various cities can choose from them depending on the budget, location and other logistical issues, to organize more frequent concerts. (I think they already have a database for CM teachers in NA. So this is not at all impossible)
I think this is very much feasible if we, a few rasikas in NA, decide to work things out. And this is the only way to end the bureacratic set up of carnatic music sabhas prevaling in several cities here (if not all).
I myself shall soon start a thread titled "Database of amateur CM performers in NA", into which the artists themselves or their friends/relatives can post their information (Please give me some time)

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 11 Feb 2011, 08:10

It is good to have a database of talented accompanists based in the NA. It is not feasible to include their remuneration in the data base. There are two kinds of musicians (including accompanists) in the US.
(1) A group that had training in India and migrated to the US and are well employed (The IT breed mostly). For them the returns from a performance is not critical. They will use frequent miles for travel and not ask for any money. The problem is they have no time to practice and keep up their standrads. One such accompanists is reported to have told while asked to accompanying a top musician from India" no probelm, it is another damn concert where the main artist takes all the money and goes away". These artists should not be taken seriously but kept in the running all the same since they are well trained.
(2) There is a group of people born and raised in the US and are taking the music seriously and even pursuing it professionally. They can not be asked to come and perform for free, assuming that they are really good. This can be judged by their past record.
The main point is the NA organizations (Cleveland, Chicago, CMANA, Atlanta etc) should spell out their objectives clrearly. Are they promoting NA carnatic musicians or Indian carnatic muscians? The way it is, it is clear that they are promoting Indian musicians in NA . Most of the organizers are living the dream they would have liked to live in Chennai. That is own a sabha and run it and have various muscians run after them. Doing it in NA they have an added advantage (1$=50rupees). That is why when one of these organizers shows up in a concert in Chennai, the main artists(irrespective of their standing) stop the music and say "salam" to these officials. I have seen it personally. In one of the concerts that I attended, when Mr Sundaram entered, the main artist (a top ranking one) stopped singing and paid his respects and continued only after Mr Sundaram took his seat. The whole thing is in such a mess that clearing it up is beyond you and me.
Anyway good luck with your efforts.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Feb 2011, 09:28

Rigveda: I totally agree with you. Probably such sabhas here should be judiciously renamed. Example: Association for the promotion of Carnatic Music of and for Sri Connecticut Venkitaraman.

A sudden wholesome change is impossible, as you say. But small steps are possible. I am going to compile all the important posts and replies in this thread and submit it as a written thesis to the Sabha people here. And I should go for their meetings (if they have any!) and raise the issue there, with the details explained as in the thesis.
One of my friends in Bangalore who is a performing artist (and a s/w engineer by profession) had told me some time back that he along with a bunch of his performing friends (all youngsters) had started a youngster's association so as to promote themselves. They are all fed up with politics by the existing sabhas which favor only selected artists and don't generally support upcoming youngsters who are not backed up or recommended by famous artists or have other influential backgrounds. He said that it is going well. They themselves organize concerts with themselves as the artists and usually get good turn over.
Such a thing is possible in NA too. As years pass more talent pool is flowing in and should become more dense and homogeneous across the country.