Perspective on amateurs accompanying the professionals

[reethigowla48]

Dear all fellow rasikas,
This is to invite your kind attention to this post , which I feel, is a topic to be discussed carefully among us, the rasikas, so as to arrive at a definite solution. Probably I can describe the problem in much detail, as more responses flow in. It would be great if we got responses from the professional musicians themselves, who were accompanied by amateur artists during their foreign tours.

You can read the complete post (by me) here.
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14852
I have also attached the main part of the post below

Thank you !

sramaswamy wrote:
Dr. Ram Sriram is the local CAMAGA president and played thani after the Madhyamavathi. I do not have the knowledge or qualification to comment on Mrudangam
Your mentioning this explicitly, instigates me to express my opinion on it
In adherence with the objective spirit of calling the spade a 'spade', I would say that the mridangam accompaniment was just extremely bad. If we can say that MSN Murthy's violin was not upto Rama's music, then the mridangam was not even within the "seven neighborhoods". I just wonder why these kind of tragedies are planned to happen on the concert stage, fooling and underestimating the standard of the audience, who pay out of their pockets with the expectation of hearing good concerts from professional musicians accompanied by 'professional' accompanists. Why do these kind of mridangists come onto the stage, without putting in the minimal amounts of practice to keep their instrumental virtuosity in tact !

Throughout the concert the mridangam was so bland, both technically and aesthetically, without proper theermanams or mukthayis after the pallavi and anupallavi. The mridangist was almost impotent to cope up with the pace of Rama's weighty music which we know, is the most important aspect of her music. Hence the concert didn't reach anywhere. And the clarity of strokes was absolutely bad that the mridangam almost sounded like a Damaru, throughout !
I can go on endlessly listing down all the criticisms, which I shall but refrain from.

It is indeed unfortunate and grossly unjust that such incapable mridangists confidently assume (without any democratic consent from the rasikas) the right to accompany the touring artists and spoil the entire concert by making it purely un-listenable and failing to lift the concert to a better level and inspire the main artist to deliver his/her best. A general rasika may not be able to pin-point this defect in the concert, even though he/she might leave the hall with the feeling that something was wrong in the concert. A few of my friends opined the same with respect to this concert.
So I guess, knowledgeable people need to overcome their reservations and be vocal about their criticisms on amateurish accompaniment for professional music, so that it enables the rasikas to enjoy and appreciate concerts of superior standards. And such amateur accompanists need to do justice to their self-respect by thoroughly introspecting their instrumental and accompaniment skills and be ready to humbly acknowledge their weaknesses and refrain from accompanying the stalwarts. Instead they could arrange for better accompanists from other parts of US or spend slightly more to invite professional accompanists from India.
I know that this has been a long-standing problem with regard to the concerts of the musicians touring US. If there is a general will from the rasikas to experience good concerts, this problem can be easily solved.
Hence those who have felt the same, about this or other concerts, please speak up.

[VK RAMAN]

Good topic. It is all about financial viability and economics

[reethigowla48]

Good topic. It is all about financial viability and economics

True---but only to some extent. These are not the things I did not think about before writing this post. I think financial viability and economics are just thinly-veiled pretexts for putting up this drama of contrasts on the stage. For instance, just because I too might be a good batsman doesn't mean that I can be made to substitute Mr Tendulkar in the Indian Cricket team--in these hard tough economic times, so that we could save some pennies
If not for other professional accompanists from India, there are several other amateur, yet too good, accompanists within US. Of course, it requires lot of sincere motivation to provide good concerts to the music lovers, by arranging for standard accompanists for the professional musicians, instead of settling for the local ones on the pretext of logistical or financial difficulty.
The situation is getting really irritating as almost half of the concerts in an year are ritualistically accommodated with the same, self-appointed, dull accompanists, whose only merit would be that that they are all settled in US ! Interesting is the fact that, howmuchever vehemence the rasikas, are feeling about it, nothing is really changing. Today the audience is very much knowledgeable about different aspects of music that this cheap underestimation of their knowledge and expectations about of a concert should not be allowed to continue.

For me (and several of my friends who I have discussed this issue with) a concert is not an individual's show (of course I am sure it is ideally the same for everyone here too). As with any other group activity, its success relies highly on the team work, for which, as a necessary condition, all the artists on the stage should be of comparable, if not thoroughly equal, calibre. Passive and dull accompaniment might be good, in as much as it is unobstructive, but will definitely take the concert to ditches !

[anonymityatlast]

1. Everyone has to start somewhere.

2. Doesn't this work the other way round too? With fantastic accompanists being wasted on mediocre main artists? Well, maybe people don't want to listen to a "laya vinyasam", but what about violin solos?

[ramamantra]

Great topic.

Another angle: Professional accompanists playing mediocre or better still spoiling the main artists' renderings in radio concerts....

[CRama]

Why great accompanists should agree to accompany mediocre vocalists?

[srikant1987]

Do you have any views on the role of accompanists in a concert ?

A violin accompanist has an unenviable role to play. He should invariably be more knowledgeable than the singer. Because he has to play for so many main performers, he necessarily has to know more kriti-s and be better at technique and be familiar with a variety of styles. But all the same he has to underplay and subjugate his artistry to that of the singer. A soloist can play at will and exhibit everything he has but not an accompanist. The violinist has to understand the quality and quantity of sound to be given for a particular singer, for a particular song, even for a particular prayoga in a kriti. The song being sung should be heard by him clearly, this is of paramount importance. Kumbakonam Rajamanickam Pillai used to hold the sound of his violin at a level where he could hear the singer well. Similarly, Palghat Mani Iyer's playing depended entirely upon the voice of the singer. The softer the voice, the softer his mridangam sound would be. For a singer with ghana saareeram he would play with more force.

http://www.narada.org/kvn/intview2.html

[Nick H]

1. Everyone has to start somewhere.

The place that they start is with their peers. Friends play together; music schools put on shows, carnatic music students put on performances for their schools, etc etc etc. Nobody should start on the professional stage!

I know only the situation in London and UK. In London at least, no visiting artist will have to put up with mediocre accompaniment on any instrument. Does USA not have equivalently professional musicians? (OK... I know USA is a vast place compared to UK, but still sending local artists on tour still saves the air fare.) Are the teachers there not up to this standard? There are instances in which juniors find their way onto the stage too: the more accomplished do get their chances, but not on the front line. Sometimes influence and parental pressure has a part to play in this: how much is this true of the USA? I have heard of wealthy parents paying the entire expense of bringing an artist for their offspring to accompany --- but I don't suppose could account for the frequency of occurrence this thread implies.

[semmu86]

Why great accompanists should agree to accompany mediocre vocalists?

There can be so many answers to this.

1. The accompanist might feel, that it is his/her duty to encourage younger/mediocre vocalists and to bring them up.
2. Probably that vocalist might be closely related to a big shot, or be one himself/herself.
3. Probably the accompanist might be offered an huge sum of fee for accompanying.
4. There could be an ego clash between the senior main artiste and senior accompanist and there are chances of the great accompanist remaining concertless, resulting in the senior accompanist accompanying the younger/mediocre ones who will listen to wat the senior accompanist says.

[Nick H]

Many overseas accompanists play for young or mediocre players because it is their job, or their living, to do so. I've seen some wonderful lessons in attitude from those people, being truly supportive and helping to bring out the best in an inexperienced youngster.

[reethigowla48]

1. Everyone has to start somewhere.

I think you totally missed and mistook my point. I was not doing some kind of 'youngster' bashing here. The word 'amateur' doesn't imply the age of the amateur at all. Amateur can be a youngster as well an old man/woman. For instance, in the concert I was mentioning, the mridangist was an amateur of about 50+ in age. And as far as I have seen he is the one who invariably accompanies all the professional artists touring Atlanta (without accompanists), over past several years. So it is not an issue about him getting some 'start' somwhere!
My remembrance is that he accompanied in about 5-6 professional musician concerts this year (including TN Seshagopal), which were all not-so-good experiences (I am trying to use 'constructive' words ). TNS, of course, took his liberty of giving the amateur artists quite tough times. Well these are not personal attacks or anything; but just citing objective facts, atleast so that these callous rituals of incompetent accompaniment are discontinued.

I am highly supportive of capable youngsters coming in as accompanists for professional artists. Be able to maintain the tempo (kalaparamanam) of a song is so central to the success of the concert that a mridangist who is not able to do that to the least should not be allowed to sit on the stage, lest music be made a mockery.
There are indeed several smart young accompanists within and nearby states who are very well capable of providing adequately good accompaniment and its not a herculian task to bring them over here, atleast a few times an year.

2. Doesn't this work the other way round too? With fantastic accompanists being wasted on mediocre main artists? Well, maybe people don't want to listen to a "laya vinyasam", but what about violin solos?

Well. Concert is not an individual artist's playground. Usually the senior accompanists whom we regard as 'great', support the main artist and embellish the concert by taking it to higher levels. It is indeed a learning experience for young and mediocre artist and never hinders the senior accompanist from utilizing his/her skills.

[srikant1987]

Why great accompanists should agree to accompany mediocre vocalists?

Probably that vocalist might be closely related to a big shot, or be one himself/herself.

Lol!

[sivapriya]

To extend VK Raman's comment, it seems to be a matter of demand, supply, financial viability, economics and also logistics.

The field of CM has to still evolve in terms of standards and standardised quality parameters. It generally operates on a personal one to one basis with much less rigorous norms compared to many other fields.

Increasingly with more savvy youngsters coming into this domain, these could get altered , with more insistence on certain performance standards and parameters !

[reethigowla48]

To extend VK Raman's comment, it seems to be a matter of demand, supply, financial viability, economics and also logistics.

The field of CM has to still evolve in terms of standards and standardized quality parameters. It generally operates on a personal one to one basis with much less rigorous norms compared to many other fields.

Increasingly with more savvy youngsters coming into this domain, these could get altered , with more insistence on certain performance standards and parameters !

I agree with you. I agree that these practical factors play an important role in deciding the accompanists. But what I am seeking is, just only not to compromise on the accompanist standard below a limit. If it is totally due to the lack of availability of good accompanists in or around the town, I shall happily accept the incompetent accompanist. But, today there is a lot of talent pool pouring into North America, directly from India and also lot of indigenous youngsters are earning good talents. When good talent is so apparent and easily available, why should we settle in for the bad accompanists just because they claim it their 'birth' right to accompany the touring artist, because of their long term familiarity with the artists? It is such a loose claim that doesn't have any valid meritorious grounds and it should just be stopped. It is a very intelligent monopoly these early settlers have designed for themselves.
Since quality is the watchword of almost all current human endeavors, incompetent accompanists should be humble enough to accept their incapabilities and either sit at home or try to improve their skill sets and then come onto the stage better prepared. What is really going on now is mere mockery, as I already said before.
I am assorting a list of youtube videos and concert recordings to prove my point and make transparent, the instances of bad accompaniments for the rasikas to judge for themselves. Shall put them up here soon.

[Nick H]

I guess you should make your point with the organisers, and, ultimately, vote with your feet.

It is a little sad that, sometimes people get left by the wayside. I recall someone being pointed out to me at a London concert, and being told that he used to play for all the visitors until people like my teacher and others came from India: the very worthy and sincere amateurs were displaced by the availability of true professionals. I honestly don't think that most of them really minded taking their place in the audience, though, and I cannot think of a British example of an organiser putting themselves on the stage, although there would be many levels of influence there that I was never aware of.

[reethigowla48]

I guess you should make your point with the organisers, and, ultimately, vote with your feet.

It is a little sad that, sometimes people get left by the wayside. I recall someone being pointed out to me at a London concert, and being told that he used to play for all the visitors until people like my teacher and others came from India: the very worthy and sincere amateurs were displaced by the availability of true professionals. I honestly don't think that most of them really minded taking their place in the audience, though, and I cannot think of a British example of an organizer putting themselves on the stage, although there would be many levels of influence there that I was never aware of.

Nick,
You are right; but I guess the organizers themselves are the accompanists in this case !
Finally I am forced not to worry about this much (not that I have given up). It's all just random coincidences. Some people are out there who don't have any kind of personal honor/conscience or humility to accept one's defects and incapability. And when such people hold higher bureaucratic positions, they utilize the public undertakings for their personal benefits. We know that this happens everywhere; in political establishments, companies and corporations etc etc. It's just a little bit surprising when it happens in a cultural establishment like a carnatic music association, comprising of all highly educated, urbane, sophisticated people.
I recall the personal honor of true artists like Palghat Mani Iyer. It is said that he stopped playing for concerts all of a sudden, just because he thought that his hands were not obeying his brain anymore. He also stated that the unique gift that God had given him was taken back by the same God and hence he couldn't play anymore.

[Nick H]

Well, yes... if it happens everywhere (and you are right, having put into words a lot of what is wrong with India and many other countries) then why not in CM?

It is also a very, very hard thing to actually voice this to the people concerned. Like hiring and firing; not much fun.

[Always_Evolving]

Nick,
You are right; but I guess the organizers themselves are the accompanists in this case !
Finally I am forced not to worry about this much (not that I have given up). It's all just random coincidences. Some people are out there who don't have any kind of personal honor/conscience or humility to accept one's defects and incapability. And when such people hold higher bureaucratic positions, they utilize the public undertakings for their personal benefits. We know that this happens everywhere; in political establishments, companies and corporations etc etc. It's just a little bit surprising when it happens in a cultural establishment like a carnatic music association, comprising of all highly educated, urbane, sophisticated people.
I recall the personal honor of true artists like Palghat Mani Iyer. It is said that he stopped playing for concerts all of a sudden, just because he thought that his hands were not obeying his brain anymore. He also stated that the unique gift that God had given him was taken back by the same God and hence he couldn't play anymore.

Getting a little carried away are we?! I have lived in Atlanta many years and heard Mr. Sriram accompany plenty of artists. I think his playing is pretty decent and not what you are making it out to be. But that can be debated. What CANNOT be debated is his integrity and the sweeping judgments you make about his honor / conscience and such like. Don't even go there. You are in quicksand.

why should we settle in for the bad accompanists just because they claim it their 'birth' right to accompany the touring artist, because of their long term familiarity with the artists? It is such a loose claim that doesn't have any valid meritorious grounds and it should just be stopped.

What is "loose" here is mainly your own claims! What gives you the right to attribute motive to how someone ended up being the accompanist for a concert, when you clearly have no idea of the circumstances that led to that choice?

You talk about rasikas getting together to solve this "problem". Have you tried organizing concerts, selecting artists, planning tours, making the economics work, getting the knowledgeable urbane, sophisticated rasikas to pay a couple of bucks extra for their mukthayis and theermanams? If the answer is no, please try it first before attacking people's integrity.

[reethigowla48]

Getting a little carried away are we?! I have lived in Atlanta many years and heard Mr. Sriram accompany plenty of artists. I think his playing is pretty decent and not what you are making it out to be. But that can be debated. What CANNOT be debated is his integrity and the sweeping judgments you make about his honor / conscience and such like. Don't even go there. You are in quicksand..

Well. I am surprised as to how you felt my posts as being targeted on a single person. You missed observing this that I did not even mention any single person's name in particular. I am sorry if you yourselves attributed it onto a particular person whom you know and hurt your ego.
This ‘phenomenon’ has been happening in several cities in US, not just in Atlanta. And this need to be tackled on a larger scale, which is why I posted this topic here in a public forum.
My judgment about artistic honor may not be true with respect to a specific person (and that was not my aim), but I don’t find any other generic reasoning for the phenomenon of a single incapable amateur, accompanying all the professional concerts (in lieu of professional accompanists, whenever they are absent) in a single city (while there are countable number of better accompanists in and around the city) without facing any kind of critical review for his/her performance. If people can confidently venture for such misadventures, I can definitely assume a moral right to comment on ‘their’ artistic honor or the lack of it (still not of ‘a particular person’s’, as you mistook it).
And about the ‘debate’ you mention: Yes the inadequacies of such accompanists can be successfully debated and proved.

What is "loose" here is mainly your own claims! What gives you the right to attribute motive to how someone ended up being the accompanist for a concert, when you clearly have no idea of the circumstances that led to that choice?.

Can you please explain, how someone can END UP playing for 5 professional concerts an year, purely by circumstantial pressures or coincidences? If certain circumstances lead to the choice of particular accompanist, and given that circumstances are always not the same, naturally, the accompanist should be a different person every other time, right? But still how did it so happen that every time the accompanist chosen was invariably the same person? This is exactly what, in your words, gave me the right to attribute someone’s planed motive to be the perpetual accompanist. Of course, I am not expected to have any idea about those ‘circumstances’ simply because I am not in the organizing committee.
Well, I wouldn’t have minded if that ‘someone’ was capably good and the concerts were all invariably successful, with only a few pitfalls here and there. But unfortunately that’s not the case and hence I couldn’t help raising my voice here (even if you didn’t like it personally).

You talk about rasikas getting together to solve this "problem". Have you tried organizing concerts, selecting artists, planning tours, making the economics work, getting the knowledgeable urbane, sophisticated rasikas to pay a couple of bucks extra for their mukthayis and theermanams? If the answer is no, please try it first before attacking people's integrity.

Well…this is a very clichéd argument, that typically many organizers take refuge of. I don’t necessarily need to be a concert organizer to ‘raise my voice’ (Note: I was not attacking anyone’s personal integrity, as you assumed for yourselves) and call a spade a spade. What you are saying is that only a concert organizer is morally entitled to criticize a concert or the way a concert is organized or voice his opinions about the performance of the artists and accompanists. In that case this forum (solely built upon the spirit of the rasikas voicing their opinions) itself would be meaningless.
Also I am not sure if you meant to say this that a concert organizer has some pre-assigned moral right to be the accompanist of a concert because of the blood and the sweat he/she has invested for arranging a concert.
And unfortunately you got the wrong person (for your wrong argument). I do have hands on experience in concert organizing, which itself is why I know it very convincingly that it’s not a big deal to find suitable substitutes when professional accompanists are absent; only the will need be there.

“sophisticated rasikas to pay a couple of bucks extra for their mukthayis and theermanams”

Please don’t use such arguments as buying art with money, that callously defame the art (may be you did it inadvertently; I give you the benefit of your ignorance). If you are not knowledgeable in something, please don’t plainly borrow the technical jargons and use them inappropriately to support some argument of yours. When I talked about theermanams I really meant it; even a small kid learning the percussion would play a theermanam after the pallavi and anupallavi of a song, which were missing in the concert, I was talking about. This left the rasikas in much mental agony; we expected something would come after the pallavi and the anupallavi, but it would never! (reminded me of the tomato ketchup ad -- aaja a a a aaja a a a aaja !)

[uday_shankar]

Well. I am surprised as to how you felt my posts as being targeted on a single person. You missed observing this that I did not even mention any single person's name in particular.

Huh, WTF ?!! Your level of self-deception is quite high then . I think you protest too much. It's a free world and you're free not to attend concerts and equally free to organize your own. You're also free to protest in rasikas but you'll make a better impression if you didn't lie; also when you attack integrity it would be nice to see someone who has the courage to name names directly and better still identify yourself.

It is a long Carnatic tradition to sometimes have "local" accompanists. Most great artists (and that's the key) can work wonders with amateur accompanists. I've personally heard Flute Ramani sir, TN Seshagopalan, chitravina Ravikiran, TVG and many others give excellent concerts accompanied by Dr Sriram. In the past, Ariyakudi and Madurai Mani Iyer are known to have given extremely successful concerts with amateur accompanists.

[anonymityatlast]

Please don’t use such arguments as buying art with money,

The food you just ate has been cultivated from a farmer's sweat ... the intricate art of cultivating crops inherited from his (or her) ancestors on fertile soil the Mother Goddess has bestowed upon all of us! ... and you thought that a little green-coloured paper was a worthy exchange for all this?

If you realise that you too (I hope) get your money from your own special skills and hard work, you'll understand better.

[uday_shankar]

Shabaash anonymityatlast ! This raises an important question...if "art" should never be connected with a crass idea like money, what distinguishes "professional" artists from amateurs ?!

[bhavarasa]

As long as the "amateur" accompanist can play to the satisfaction of the average rasika, I don't see a problem with using them IF and WHEN there aren't professionals available.

But when you have a rank bad accompanist who was brought in purely because of economic reasons (either by the organizer OR the vocalist), it is unfair to the rasikas (and Rasikas - with a Capital R - the immensely knowledgeable ones on this forum).

Atlanta OR Academy, the quality has to be good.

[mahesu]

I agree that art and performing it, should not be connected to making money from it. A professional is not the one who makes livelihood from performing the art. Rather it should be linked to the competence / expertise. Better to keep this as the standard while evaluating any artist, is my humble view. He / She can be even an organiser for that matter,

[reethigowla48]

Huh, WTF ?!! Your level of self-deception is quite high then . I think you protest too much. It's a free world and you're free not to attend concerts and equally free to organize your own. You're also free to protest in rasikas but you'll make a better impression if you didn't lie; also when you attack integrity it would be nice to see someone who has the courage to name names directly and better still identify yourself.

Unfortunately, your problem is that you don’t have any explanations for the questions I have raised in this forum (most of which remain untouched and unanswered) and hence the only way you can attempt to disparage my observations and distract the ongoing discussion, is by picking on a silly matter; specifically by trying to twist my purely impersonal criticism into a personal attack. This is of course the classic way some people respond to criticisms.
If you don’t have the right spirits to take the criticisms constructively, I can’t help.
Also I will definitely attend any concert which I would like to and will criticize if the accompaniment is still bad. So your honorable idea is for the rasikas to sit at home, instead of coming over for the concert and expressing their opinions about the concert organization, performance etc. So you are building up a neat a pretext for the concert organizers to escape with bad accompaniments, on a regular basis. And you expect all the rasikas to keep their mouth shut for ever. Interesting !

I think you protest too much:

You are free to think what you want; but I will keep protesting or not, depending on the cause, irrespective of how you feel about it. If you think that my problem is of protesting too much, your problem is of not protesting at all; of complacently accepting all the mediocrities put up for you on the stage. And as far as the accompaniment is bad I will keep protesting without fail. Whether or not my criticism is valid is not at all dependent on such clichéd things as me revealing my name or not. Remember this that the spades are always spades, regardless of my identity. Nevertheless, next time I will let know my criticism to the concerned artist, in person, after the concert, if that will help him/her make an introspection.

It is a long Carnatic tradition to sometimes have "local" accompanists. Most great artists (and that's the key) can work wonders with amateur accompanists. I've personally heard Flute Ramani sir, TN Seshagopalan, chitravina Ravikiran, TVG and many others give excellent concerts accompanied by Dr Sriram. In the past, Ariyakudi and Madurai Mani Iyer are known to have given extremely successful concerts with amateur accompanists.

Yes it is a tradition to SOMETIMES have local accompanists; but not ALWAYS; and ALWAYS not the SAME amateur accompanist; invariably for all concerts, over past several years. It is isimply absurd; and you have not answered that.

Well..if your knowledge in rhythm and your common-sensical musical ability to enjoy the mridangam accompaniment in a concert, are both very limited, please feel free to believe good about whatever you want. But please leave the many others who find the accompaniment very inadequate and who are more knowledgeable (no hypocrisy of the knowledged, implied), to discuss the issue.
TN Seshagopalan—Surely you are joking Mr Uday Shankar ! If you remember, we had a TNS concert with this mridangist earlier this year which was very well pathetic. In fact I had to leave the concert hall, because I couldn’t bear how the accompanists were sweating on the stage ‘attempting’ to accompany TNS in vain. So don’t come up with such generic and false observations about someone’s merit, without yourselves having the qualification to make a judgment. If you still disagree, I challenge you in proving the merit of the accompanist objectively instead of making qualitative statements as in your phrases “excellent”, “extremely successful” etc. As I wrote previously, I can go about doing that; but shall not venture into it, as that is not my purpose.

[reethigowla48]

I agree that art and performing it, should not be connected to making money from it. A professional is not the one who makes livelihood from performing the art. Rather it should be linked to the competence / expertise. Better to keep this as the standard while evaluating any artist, is my humble view. He / She can be even an organizer for that matter,

You are right. The only significant difference between the professional and amateur is that the professional keeps doing the art very regularly that whatever he/she delivers on the stage will have utmost perfection, clarity and appeal to the listener. The amateur will definitely lack in all of these. Even if the amateur is intellectually at par with the professional (that too happens only very rarely) he/she will definitely be far behind in the vocal/instrumental virtuosity, since it requires perfectly discontinuous practice, which only a professional will be motivated to do.

[reethigowla48]

Atlanta OR Academy, the quality has to be good.

Yes. That is all what I have been trying to say here. Whichever the concert be, whoever the artists be (amateur or professional), whatever the circumstances be, why should a rasika be forced to settle for a bad concert or a bad accompaniment that discourages the concert, when he/she pays his/her time and money for hearing a concert of atleast normal standards, if not the highest?
(Concerts with all amateur artists should be exceptions and I am highly appreciative of such ventures; problems arise only when professionals are accompanied by amateurs; the latter who pull down the concert standards to unfavorably lower levels)

[mahesu]

End of the day, the performance on the stage matters, no matter the label "Professional". "Amateur" etc be. It is our assumption that the so called "Professional" trains and practices day in and out and others do not. There are bad performers who are professionals (I mean people whose livelihood is dependent) and very good performers who are not dependent. So the yardstick needs to be the performance and vidwat and not the tag of "Professional", "Amatuer"

[reethigowla48]

End of the day, the performance on the stage matters, no matter the label "Professional". "Amateur" etc be. It is our assumption that the so called "Professional" trains and practices day in and out and others do not. There are bad performers who are professionals (I mean people whose livelihood is dependent) and very good performers who are not dependent. So the yardstick needs to be the performance and vidwat and not the tag of "Professional", "Amatuer"

mahesu: I think we both said the same thing at the same time
See my reply to bhavarasa

[Nick H]

I have, on just a very few occasions, seen accompaniment that was not up to expected standard. On those occasions, I have thought that the accompanist was only there because they were a student of the main artist.

I don't object to such patronage where "background" artists are concerned, but I don't think it should be given for the "main" accompanists.

[srikant1987]

I don't object to such patronage where "background" artists are concerned, but I don't think it should be given for the "main" accompanists.

By "background artist" do you mean supporting vocalists -- as opposed to the violinist or the mridangist (percussionists?) who are "main" accompanists?

[anonymityatlast]

Thank you, reethigowla48, for your very instructive and hands-on tutorial on what hypocrisy is.

Please don’t use such arguments as buying art with money,

why should a rasika be forced to settle for a bad concert or a bad accompaniment that discourages the concert, when he/she pays his/her time and money

And indeed, you'll be doing everyone -- especially yourself -- a favour by stopping attending concerts altogether. You'll be saved the trouble of wasting your time, precious money and being "forced" to "settle" for a bad concert or a bad accompaniment that discourages the concert, in spite of your generously gracing it with your charming presence. The artists and organizers will be spared from threads like this one.

[reethigowla48]

A violin accompanist has an unenviable role to play. He should invariably be more knowledgeable than the singer. Because he has to play for so many main performers, he necessarily has to know more kriti-s and be better at technique and be familiar with a variety of styles. But all the same he has to underplay and subjugate his artistry to that of the singer. A soloist can play at will and exhibit everything he has but not an accompanist. The violinist has to understand the quality and quantity of sound to be given for a particular singer, for a particular song, even for a particular prayoga in a kriti. The song being sung should be heard by him clearly, this is of paramount importance. Kumbakonam Rajamanickam Pillai used to hold the sound of his violin at a level where he could hear the singer well. Similarly, Palghat Mani Iyer's playing depended entirely upon the voice of the singer. The softer the voice, the softer his mridangam sound would be. For a singer with ghana saareeram he would play with more force.

srikant1987: Good excerpt from KVN's interview. It will take us into a more serious topic: About the contemporary accompaniment standards; especially on mridangam.

[reethigowla48]

I have, on just a very few occasions, seen accompaniment that was not up to expected standard. On those occasions, I have thought that the accompanist was only there because they were a student of the main artist.

I don't object to such patronage where "background" artists are concerned, but I don't think it should be given for the "main" accompanists.

Hey Nick: I guess you were referring to the secondary (or submain) percussion accompanists like Ghatam, Ghanchira etc. Yea that's right; there are occasions in which fully amateurs play the ghanchira or ghatam. Recently I saw one concert review with Neyveli Santhanagopalan playing the ghanchira, with no much skill. But as you say, it doesn't discourage the concert altogether as far as the sub-main accompanist doesn't obstruct the general flow of the concert. The situation becomes serious if the main percussion artist (when he/she is an amateur) himself/herself is not able to cope up with the the professional singer's pace; pulls down the pace of the songs; and consistently fails to embellish the songs, sangathis, neravals, and exhibit very poor anticipation during manodharma swarams and leave long gaps unable to catch up with the musician.
Let's leave alone the thaniavarthanam (giving benefit to the artist's amateurship) as there are only a very small fraction of people who enjoy the thani and giving out a unimpressive thani doesn't much affect the bulk part of the concert.

[reethigowla48]

And indeed, you'll be doing everyone -- especially yourself -- a favour by stopping attending concerts altogether. You'll be saved the trouble of wasting your time, precious money and being "forced" to "settle" for a bad concert or a bad accompaniment that discourages the concert, in spite of your generously gracing it with your charming presence. The artists and organizers will be spared from threads like this one.

Hey, I don't understand your problem. If you have taken it up as your sole motive to provide an antithesis for whatever I write, I can start a separate thread for your sake and write down sufficient controversial points with deliberate flaws, so as for you to satiate your hunger for rants and raves.
Thanks for your concern; unfortunately I am writing here and I will come for the concerts that I wish to hear, just because I love doing both, as far as these are not unlawful acts. It doesn't inconvenience me at all, and if it does for you, you are free to stop responding here. Right now I am enjoying the thread and it's interesting to hear the opinions of the rasikas here; especially the ones who have undergone similar dissatisfying experiences in concerts.

[mankuthimma]

Nick
http://www.mediafire.com/?pwhw39yyesr4k24
You will love this . An unwilling khanjira player being pulled into the concert at 3.34.

[Sathej]

Thanks Cool ji..can sense things happening at around 3:25, but cant quite make out what is being said. Any pointers on the artistes? Nice Viriboni..And btw a good title that - in the Conan Doyle style !

Sathej

[VK RAMAN]

Professional means perfection. To get that shell out cash and listen. Amateur means imperfection, no cash and no enjoyment. How many of us accept this.

[suma]

Nick
http://www.mediafire.com/?pwhw39yyesr4k24
You will love this . An unwilling khanjira player being pulled into the concert at 3.34.

Heard some commotion but could not figure what the "yelling" was about.

Nice Viriboni. Looks like a veteran singer and a veteran violinist. What were they?

[Nick H]

By "background artist" do you mean supporting vocalists -- as opposed to the violinist or the mridangist (percussionists?) who are "main" accompanists?

It was an ill-thought-out comment and a loosely-used phrase, so please feel free to discard it, but I was thinking of everyone except main artist, violin and mridangam.

There is no substitute for 100% quality and 100% teamwork, but at a less exalted level, it is possible for, eg young percussionists, to gain experience on stage.

You will love this . An unwilling khanjira player being pulled into the concert at 3.34.

I have been dragged in, to situations where I had no musical right whatsoever to be. It is embarrassing --- but the 'victim' in your example has no reason at all to be embarrassed. There are mridangists who just don't give time to their colleagues, and there are colleagues who are far to reticent about taking it.

Can you post the dialogue?

(that you have a huge archive, I suppose, is a factor of time and persistence: that you have a mental index into it is nothing short of miraculous)

[reethigowla48]

Professional means perfection. To get that shell out cash and listen. Amateur means imperfection, no cash and no enjoyment. How many of us accept this.

VK RAMAN: Thanks for this insightful sentence. It summarizes well, what I have been playing around to express :tmi:
First vote of acceptance comes from me !
I don't have problem with amateurs accompanying professionals, as far as they are "really good". And indeed within US itself we have good number of substantially good amateurs. In fact amateur-ship has been the most significant mode by which Carnatic music kept transmitted to the future generations, without much dilution.

But the whole problem in front of us is that, the phrase "really good" is so much subjective and it's hard to make a correct judgment of an amateur's standard. One way an amateur artist attempts to ensure the minimal standard is by 'playing safe'. In case of mridangam, they may choose to play nothing other than 'sarvalaghu' (which 'only by itself', is the most monotonous and bland form of accompaniment) without venturing into higher levels of playing for the song pattern, sangathis, neravals etc and embellishing them; because they are sure that they will go wrong in it; as they lack perfection.
This is the highest form of "reductionism" of the art of accompaniment. But rasikas who don't concentrate on appreciating the artistic dynamics that evolves between the main artist and the accompanying artists won't find this 'reductionism' apparent and in his/her eyes the accompanying amateur is good (or reasonably good., as far as he/she doesn't hinder the main artist). This is why one of the members here claimed that the amateur accompanied excellently well for TNS etal, while the reality was otherwise.

In the case of violin I have heard an amateur just playing plain sruthi on violin, quite unable to capture any sancharas, the vocalist was engaging during the ragalapana for considerable number of songs in a concert. So the violin was nothing more than a sruthi box for the vocalist.

This simplified, rudimentary playing totally devoid of all aesthetics that are core to Indian music, is not what will lift the concert into a successful and memorable experience. An amateur (as well as a professional, for that matter) should involve in 'active' playing than just being passive and diminished, if they should qualify for accompanying professional artists. This dissatisfying accompaniment always remains a subtle issue, usually hidden safely beneath the effervescent brilliance of the main artist that the rasikas may not always be able to pin point the correct reason for the concert's failure.

[Nick H]

Professional means perfection. To get that shell out cash and listen. Amateur means imperfection, no cash and no enjoyment. How many of us accept this.

To a point. It depends on what the performance is supposed to be, or, if the cash element is included, what it as sold as.

I don't see why the cash element should not be brought into it, if it is not a free performance: if it has been sold as professional, that is what it should be.

If it is represented as amateur (and cash may still be involved, if it some fund-raising function) then we can certainly still enjoy.

they may choose to play nothing other than 'sarvalaghu' (which 'only by itself', is the most monotonous and bland form of accompaniment)

That depends on who is playing it

(I split hairs for fun: I know what you mean, and I agree)

[reethigowla48]

Nick
http://www.mediafire.com/?pwhw39yyesr4k24
You will love this . An unwilling khanjira player being pulled into the concert at 3.34.

I am not sure what the pun implied is
It is a KVN concert. The ghanchira artist is silent till the charanam, which is not surprising. Accompanying percussionists pitch in slowly. The mridangist then tells something of the sort of "avan muzhichu muzhichu paarkaran" (he is looking out with wide open eyes).Then the ghanchira artist starts off accompanying for the charanam. And frankly its one of the best ghanchira accompaniments I ever heard. Usually we take note of the ghanchira very late in the thani or if before that, while taking turns during neravals or swarapratharam. To hear ghanchira alone accompanying the song, that too very aptly, is rare (except in Palghat Mani Iyer concerts where he takes surprising breaks in between a song and the submain percussionist alone has to accompany for some time).
So it doesn't seem that the ghanchira artist here was unwilling, by any chance, since there is no reason that an excellent, professional ghanchira artist should be unwilling or embarrassed thereafter (as Nick says). Its just that he was silent and the mridangist was just making some light joke on him.
The final theermanam is interesting too. The mridangist stops prematurely with a terse one while the ghanchira guy finishes it with another terse one

[Nick H]

Well, as I see it (and I'll be glad to get corrections if I am wrong)... the mridangist gets the pallavi to themselves. At the annapalavi, the other[s] get to join in. In the neraval and swaras, there is supposed to be a sharing, with the mridangist "leading" by accompanying the vocalist. I get miffed when a mridangist hogs the limelight in this section (not only because I think it is unfair, but because I think we need those different textures of sound), although sometimes it can be seen that the other player[s] has indicated to the mridangist to please continue, or, at least, to play as well.

But, on top of this, there are a host of moments when, whether the mridangist just wants a couple of avartanas off, needs to tune, or judges that the "orchestration" of support would be better served by kanjira or ghatam, and indicates to that player to play. My wild guess is that, in mankuthimma's quote, the kanjira artist may have missed the hint/cue from the mridangist to take up the play. Perhaps he was looking out with wide open eyes, but not seeing!

[reethigowla48]

That depends on who is playing it

(I split hairs for fun: I know what you mean, and I agree)

I know it's a controversial statement, which is why I put this in quote "only by itself".
I don't intend to belittle the sarvalaghu laden styles of stalwarts like Vellore Ramabadran (and even Palani during the later part of his career; from what I have heard of), even though I don't like it personally. Yet, giving consistent sarvalaghu with good 'azhutham', properly modulated sound and vivid clarity of strokes, all require good cultivated stamina which can be achieved only by a professional !

[srikant1987]

Can anyone name the percussionists?

[mankuthimma]

I only tried to bring some light heartedness into this thread with a snippet of a rare moment in CM history .
It is a KVN private concert in the UK . Rajamani is on the Mridangam . And yes, after some coaxing , it is Palghat Mani Iyer who plays the Khanjira for the concert .
Nick . 8)

Sathej . Guess I am watching too many Sherlock Holmes serials , of late
You liked it ? I can play the Thani, which is rare , too . The Khanjira leading the Mridangam ...

[mankuthimma]

Looks like a veteran singer and a veteran violinist. What were they?

Geniuses . Without doubt . KVN and Lalgudi . ;(

[reethigowla48]

I only tried to bring some light heartedness into this thread with a snippet of a rare moment in CM history .
It is a KVN private concert in the UK . Rajamani is on the Mridangam . And yes, after some coaxing , it is Palghat Mani Iyer who plays the Khanjira for the concert .
Nick . 8)

Sathej . Guess I am watching too many Sherlock Holmes serials , of late
You liked it ? I can play the Thani, which is rare , too . The Khanjira leading the Mridangam ...

Mankuthimma: Perhaps you won't believe if I tell you that I had thought it was like Mani Iyer's voice. But the mridangam sounded like a Kucchi mridangam, which was highly unlikely for the mridangist to be PMI himself or TR Rajamani. But the ghanchira was amazing. I knew it was not Harishankar, because he couldnt play such madhyama kaalam phrases (which is why I think PMI himself was opposed to his style of ghanchira playing). Then I thought it could be V Nagarajan, as he had directly learnt from Tanjavur Vaidynatha Iyer and this old style playing style seemed to fit his own style. Anyways this one is by none else than the Master himself.
Thank you so much for putting up this piece here. A really humbling game by you :tmi:
I dont know if this brought light-heartedness in me or not. Actually it added fire to vehemence of frustration and sadness of having forced in situations to hear bad accompaniments !
Please post the thani too, if you can. Let us recall that previously during the times of Pudukottai Dakshinamurthy Pillai (PDP), Ghanchira used to be the lead instrument and PMI as a young lad was forced to sit behing PDP and follow him. But none could stop PMI; he with his genius and immeasurable command over the instrument gained the primary position for the mridangam on the concert stage. The sad part of this story is that we totally have no idea how PDP himself would have played on the ghanchira and that art died along with him.
Thanks !

[mankuthimma]

Actually it added fire to vehemence of frustration

I have learnt the trick of Channelling my Frustrations through such interventions here :$
Yes. I will put that Thani up .