Why don't we have "Misra" ragas in Carnatic music?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Apr 2015, 10:07

ಸ್ಥಾವರಕೆ ಅಳಿವುಂಟು ಜಂಗಮಕೆ ಅಳಿವಿಲ್ಲ!

The immobile (stone) perishes but the moving (spirit) is imperishable! - Basaveshwara 12C CE

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 24 Apr 2015, 10:25

Ranganayaki,
If it is not what you mentioned, I think I understand what is meant.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 24 Apr 2015, 10:41

Rsachi wrote:ಸ್ಥಾವರಕೆ ಅಳಿವುಂಟು ಜಂಗಮಕೆ ಅಳಿವಿಲ್ಲ!

The immobile (stone) perishes but the moving (spirit) is imperishable! - Basaveshwara 12C CE

Sorry to interrupt. The statement of Basaveshwara (or the interpretation)? is not correct. There is no such thing as mobile or immobile in the realm of spirit (Atman). It is all pervading. It is neither moving nor non-moving. It is unmoving mover. The famous SAnti Sloka 'pUrNamadaH...' explains this paradox. There is no such thing as 'perishable'. It is a human self-deluding finitude that sees things as 'life' and 'death'.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 24 Apr 2015, 10:53

Sir, a detailed explanation of Basaveshwara's words will take up too much space here. The words are from the vachana "uLLavaru SivAlayava.." Suffice it to say he is simply saying that objects, structures and rituals of worship are man-made and hence impermanent but not the spirit of worship which is inspired by the divine. This idea pervades all of Hinduism.
yajnabhRt yajnakRt yajnI... Vishnu Sahasranama.

The best example in history is the famous temple at Somnath. Ghazni looted and destroyed it. But he couldn't kill the spirit of worship of Shiva!

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 24 Apr 2015, 11:36

There is story in the life of Vivekananda. When Vivekananda visited Kashmir, he saw the destruction of Hindu temples by invaders. He felt that if he had been alive then, he would have fought against them. That night Mother appeared in his dream and said "one of my sons built a temple; other one destroyed it. Who are you to defend me?" The moral of the story is obvious. Lest the topic gets derailed, I sign off from this thread.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 24 Apr 2015, 16:31

Varsha

CM is all sanity , all about philosophical wisdom , all about an exultation ......hermetically sealed.

No. CM is all B for Y and B

munirao2001

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 24 Apr 2015, 17:29

vgovindan wrote:Lest the topic gets derailed, I sign off from this thread.

I agree.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 24 Apr 2015, 17:30

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/3vidwkg ... a_-_SB.mp3

No. CM is all B for Y and B

I dont understand this and yet or some reason I like it.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 25 Apr 2015, 10:40

Varsha

Bis Bhakthi-worship;prayer;spirit. Y is Yoga- Unity of Outer Self, Outer Conscious with Inner Self, Inner Conscious; Inner Self, Inner Conscious with Pure Self, Pure Conscious, all one's own yearning and attainment and also of rasika, universal self. B is Bhoga- yearning and attainment of Ananda, Bliss, in Unity of Self with Universal Self. This is the objectives of the Primary Goals of Indian Classical Music-SAT, Perception of Reality, truth; CHIT-rest in Pure Conscious and Sthitapragnatva,Stillness of the mind; Ananda-attainment and very living with Bliss of Peace. It is both the Idealism and Materialism. This goal and objectives make Indian Classical Music, Karnataka Sangeetham and Hindustani Sangeet, Greatest of all Arts.

This is also related to the topic. How? It is Misra of Idealism, Meta physical and Materialism, Physical.

munirao2001

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 25 Apr 2015, 19:36

Muniraoji's persistence in the use of Karnataka for CM is amazing.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 28 Apr 2015, 14:03

VKRaman Sir

I respect history. I disrespect, mythology.

munirao2001

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Apr 2015, 14:15

I agree with Shri Munirao that history supports the use of the expression Karnataka Sangeetha. I quote from a fine article here:

Several reasons have been given as to why the name Karnataka Sangita for the music of south India. Many have opined that the region south of the Vindhyas was referred to as Karnatakam and hence the name. The word Karnatakam also stands for ‘that which is very old’ and scholars have interpreted it to mean that this music form is an old one. Yet another explanation is that the word derives from Karna (the ear) + Ata (to haunt) or ‘that which haunts the ear’. That would certainly be an apt description for Carnatic Music.
It appears that in the period prior to the Sangita Ratnakara, a 13th Century work on music by Sarangadeva, there was only one stream of music across the whole of India. By the 15th Century, Kallinatha refers to the music of south India as Karnataka Sangita and records its practice between the rivers Krishna in the north and Kaveri in the south.

The article is available here:
http://www.nadasurabhi.org/articles/6-a ... ?showall=1

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 28 Apr 2015, 18:11

Part of the problem with using karnATaka for me, and possibly to many other native tamizh speakers, is how, over the years, this word has become to mean something that's old and musty, not in vogue, and just a tad bit infra dig, adjectives we so do not want to be applied to this wonderful stream of music.
Anyway, to quote the Bard from Avon, what's in a name? To misquote kabIr, all good music has the ability to 'sravaN dvAr hai sancari, phailE sakal sarIr', and heal....

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 28 Apr 2015, 18:34

rshankar Sir,

Your state is the result of 'myth' reading and understanding, like majority of practitioners and rasikas. Only reading the history with references and evidence will establish the truth and knowledge. By not accepting history, we deny the epoch making acts and contributions of Vaggeyakaras-dasa sahithya; Rulers and Patrons; Musicologists; Teachers, who all contributed to develop existing devotional music in to art form of music and for its practice, sometime in the 9th century. The art form music developed based on the Purandara Dasa's and other many vaggeyakaras; musicologists and teachers of music based in Tanjore with the support of rulers-Nayaks and Marathas. The nascent art form of music in 9th Century developed in to great art form and came to be known as Karnataka Sangeetham, to be recognized as art form of music different from the pre existing devotional music. Kshetrayya and Trinity's compositions made the Karnataka Sangeetham, one of the greatest arts forms.

munirao2001

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Apr 2015, 19:24

See your point. However, Karnataka is the word we use for a state in India. That being the case, today, it may be misunderstood as music exclusive to that region in India.

Even more the reason: we have used CM and not KM. HM, and not US (uttarAdi sangeet...heaven forbid) at Rasikas.org all these years. I can understand VKR's reaction in that. Imagine cmlover being kmlover

Half the stuff we discuss here are based on mythology (I'm not saying if it's good or bad). We were all brought up on them in one way or the other, and our expressions in every aspect of life speaks of it, even outside of Rasikas.

And about human quirks: how we do not feel comfortable with some simple thing which is a bit out of the way! How we feel relieved that we are not 'forunites' in your posts anymore!

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 28 Apr 2015, 20:10

i have heard four speakers at vidwath samajam last week.all spoke in chaste tamizh.half of them spoke out of context - for the occasion - eulogising tamizh roots for this music.
And yet....
all uttered karnataka sangeetham
It is pertinent to note that it is difficult to use carnatic when one wants to communicate in purely a non english mode. it is as queasy as chitaldurg for chitradurga. my grandad who died thinking british rule was the best thing to happen to india kept saying chitaldurg to his last day. it was his way of asserting that we were better off as slaves.it mirrored in his dress habits , and many other small details.
He was in a minority , but then such people existed.
radio announcers in kannada and telugu dont pronounce it as ik..the choice crops up when one wants to communicate in english , like in this forum.
yes there are a few who uncomfortable with the fact that a neighbouring state has this name .
and find ik a suitable choice .
bottomline
if you think first in the native language and then process into english , aka is a fair choi e.
other way round , ik , is understandable

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Apr 2015, 21:53

Roti or chappati?
Curd or yoghurt?
Chappal or slippers?
Raita or pacchadi?
Kheer or payasam?
Dussehra or Navaratri?
Six of Carnatic or half dozen of Karnataka?

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 28 Apr 2015, 22:11

arasi wrote:See your point. However, Karnataka is the word we use for a state in India. That being the case, today, it may be misunderstood as music exclusive to that region in India.

Even more the reason: we have used CM and not KM. HM, and not US (uttarAdi sangeet...heaven forbid) at Rasikas.org all these years. I can understand VKR's reaction in that. Imagine cmlover being kmlover

rshankar wrote:Part of the problem with using karnATaka for me, and possibly to many other native tamizh speakers, is how, over the years, this word has become to mean something that's old and musty, not in vogue, and just a tad bit infra dig, adjectives we so do not want to be applied to this wonderful stream of music.

A wonderful thing about language is that it is alive with constant change and evolution, just like the earth. When we decided 30 years ago to apply the word "gay" for a certain lifestyle, we actually went out of our way to use other words to express what the word used to mean before. Also, the word "gay" which was chosen for its happy and positive connotation, has literally turned into a slur among opponents of the lifestyle. I remember growing up using the word "Tamil" to refer to the language of our region. Today when I hear it pronounced that way, it sounds very odd to me. Change is possible, and it happens readily.

So if we make it a point to say KM or KS instead of CM it could be a very positive change - the expression "karnataka(m)" might end up losing the pejorative connotation that only some believe it has.

I think it is unfair to demand that the original word be never used, while its anglicised version is favored. Do use "CM" if you want, but let the others be. "Karnatakam" is an older word than the state of Karnataka, and ignorance of this fact does not justify anyone squishing down the term "KS".

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Apr 2015, 22:27

What is in a name, written in English?

Is there any disagreement in how people read it in any of the Indian languages including Tamil and Kannada?

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 28 Apr 2015, 23:10

munirao2001 wrote: Your state is the result of 'myth' reading and understanding, like majority of practitioners and rasikas. Only reading the history with references and evidence will establish the truth and knowledge. By not accepting history, we deny the epoch making acts and contributions of Vaggeyakaras-dasa sahithya; Rulers and Patrons; Musicologists; Teachers, who all contributed to develop existing devotional music in to art form of music and for its practice, sometime in the 9th century. The art form music developed based on the Purandara Dasa's and other many vaggeyakaras; musicologists and teachers of music based in Tanjore with the support of rulers-Nayaks and Marathas. The nascent art form of music in 9th Century developed in to great art form and came to be known as Karnataka Sangeetham, to be recognized as art form of music different from the pre existing devotional music. Kshetrayya and Trinity's compositions made the Karnataka Sangeetham, one of the greatest arts forms.

munirao2001

VK,
Is this about the language only? If it is so, I am all for 'karnataka sangItam'. But it is substance behind the argument which makes it look vulgar. To treat everything before 9th Century as myth is vulgar - to say the least - something akin to what British propagated about Hindu Mythology - all that happened before the birth of Christ is myth. Indians are very naive indeed. Haven't we bought the argument and persisting on it till date?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 28 Apr 2015, 23:24

VGV, Exactly. Once we take out the issue about how to call our music, then the issue you bring about is unpacked. That is definitely a worthwhile discussion.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Apr 2015, 23:45

I have seen two most surprising words here : Pejorative. Vulgar. Because of the use of the word Karnataka!?!?
Come on. Please read the article I shared before by V. Sriram.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 28 Apr 2015, 23:52

And by the way, as we don't like Karnataka, we should carefully avoid its vulgar "white man" version Carnatic.
And to hell with history.
I propose we call CM as "Our music" or OM! That way we will all feel comfortable. We should call HM as "Their music" or TM.
I am being only half serious here.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 29 Apr 2015, 00:02

Rsachi,
You seem to have taken offence to the word 'vulgar'. I am sorry for that. But have you also seen my statement that I am all for the word 'karnataka sangItam'?

The article you quoted in no way answers my query. Sri Ram may have written a scholarly article - but a very short-sighted one. If you, Sri Ram and Muni Rao think that before 9th century there was no music in this part of the land, then that can only called parochialism.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 29 Apr 2015, 00:26

Rsachi wrote:And by the way, as we don't like Karnataka, we should carefully avoid its vulgar "white man" version Carnatic.
And to hell with history.
I propose we call CM as "Our music" or OM! That way we will all feel comfortable. We should call HM as "Their music" or TM.
I am being only half serious here.

Rsachi wrote:I have seen two most surprising words here : Pejorative. Vulgar. Because of the use of the word Karnataka!?!?
Come on. Please read the article I shared before by V. Sriram.

I personally love Karnataka, in spite of being a Tamilian growing up in Tamil Nadu, I've known Kannada since I was three - exposure to any number of speakers of the language in my community, including my parents.

Dear RSachi, I was the one who used the word "pejorative" and Sri Govindan used "vulgar". Neither of us used these words to say "Karnatak" HAD a pejorative connotation or was vulgar. Please read both lines again. I was responding to Ravi (rshankar) who said that to Tamilians, "Karnatak" was an adjective that had the connotation of "old and musty, not in vogue". He did not want that sense to be applied to our music, because that is a pejorative connotation of the word. So I responded saying that only to SOME people did the word have a pejorative connotation. Also, after all, Carnatic is an anglicised form of Karnatak. It's basically the same adjective.

Sri Govindan said that he was all for "Karnataka Sangeetham". He found the negation of all that happened in India and Hinduism before the advent of Christ as myth rather vulgar and he did not apply that term to either the word Karnatak nor was he talking about the music, obviously. I think he was decrying the "slave" mentality that makes us gobble everything the west said about us as gospel truth.

I think most of us here love all the states of CM/KS. We are brothers and sisters connected by the love of music, the region and the country. KS/CM may be showcased much better in Chennai, but it belongs to all of us and our beloved composer-saints are from all over the south. When I use the word beloved, it is not T or MD or SS who comes to (my) mind, but Purandara Dasa.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 29 Apr 2015, 00:33

RSachi,
V Sriram begins the article by asking why "Karnatak", as though the word is the focus of his article.. No, it is just an entry into the topic. His main theme is the history, not the word. Not much there is new information.

In my mind, the word "Karnatak" with it's pejorative connotation of unfashionable (Avanaa? Aiyo, avan shudda Karnatakam!!) and Karnataka Sangeetham are two different things. The two just don't mix, almost like two different words or expressions.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 29 Apr 2015, 00:46

Rsachi wrote: I am being only half serious here.

Friend, half serious is way too serious, we don't need to call it "OM". You sound hurt, I didn't mean to hurt any kannadigas. My words are right there to be re-read and correctly understood.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Apr 2015, 02:41

Wait a second!
After reading all these deliberations, I do see that I have to catch up with many of you, and say, "Wait!".

My heart is as much in tamizh nADu (not tamil nadu for me) as KarnaTaka and the rest of the world. Well, with so many fingers pointed at this business about CM, call it KM from now on, make it the Rasikas.org word and that's fine by me. Now, when I think about it, uniformity of use was foremost on my mind it,it seems.

I thought it was a simple little thing, a habit of our typing it thousands of times. This did not surface at all in all these years when none of us ever gave it a thought, and suddenly, it's a big deal? All this 'what's wrong about my state's 'spelling' for the music we love? Then I would say, my state too, Karnataka!

So, until it was questioned, no one felt the need for changing it, in all these years?

Sensitivity about our culture, our music, our region, our land is fine. To feel sensitive to 'perceived ' prejudices is not ...

If Karnataka sangeetham (or whatever is the pick) is more apt, I'd be the first one to adopt it, so long as I don't have to type all the letters--just two or three letters , for convenience,as with SS, AR (Ari), MS, KVN and so on...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Apr 2015, 02:55

Yeah, it is time to clear up any misunderstanding before we proceed. Let us make sure we take offense for the right thing and not based on a misunderstanding.

It is a fairly well defined topic and I think it is indeed possible to discuss it in a clear manner with out any misunderstanding and getting hurt etc.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Apr 2015, 03:32

Ok ok! Now that's all settled, CM=KS

Just some scanty facts we have:
1. The region was called karnAta. It was a large area bigger tha present day Karnataka.
2. The reference to the "margi" music of that region was karnAtaka (adjective) sangIta or music.
3. Lots of wars and migrations and invasions later, we now have a very sophisticated body of classical music called CM. (both Raghunatha Nayaka and a Govinda Dikshita migrated to Tanjavur).
4.Chennai is to CM what Mecca is to Islam.
5.Margazhi is our Haj. Since Krishna didn't know Tamil, he consoled himself by saying, "mAsAnAM mArgazIrSOhaM" in Bhagavadgita.

I feel all in all our music deserves today to be called OM. Karunanidhi may prefer "namma isai" or Ni. Until we all agree, I will stick with CM.

(In GE business terms CM was a big deal)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Apr 2015, 03:49

Sachi,
Namma isai (or namadu isai)

The opposite meaning is given in the acronym. ni (nI is so much better than 'nAn', isn't it?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Apr 2015, 04:00

OM shanti OM!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 29 Apr 2015, 05:15

OK, good. Let us get to some hard stuff. Don't let this affect anyone's Shanthi, it is not worth it, so debate away in a detached fashion!

When we talk History vs Mythology etc, History comes out smelling good in any debate. That is fine but a few issues need to be kept in mind that will add some humility to that perspective

History is

an abstraction achieved through
1. leaving out details
2. compressing details
3. adding perspectives to fill in the holes
written by the victors
1. because the losers are not around to complain about it

In that sense it need not be a full reflection of reality even if we want to believe what is written in true. Not that we can do anything about it but it is better to keep this humble perspective in mind

That said,
Sriram says in the link Sachi provided ( http://www.nadasurabhi.org/articles/6-a ... ?showall=1 ) that "its more Indian version ‘Karnatak’ music....It certainly had nothing to do with the eponymous modern state in south India that has its capital as Bangalore."
Sachi you wrote 'The region was called karnAta. It was a large area bigger than present day Karnataka'.

Are there historical material available to support both of the above. If so, that gets us somewhere.

Probably an easier question, why a word used to describe a bigger region was used for present day Karnataka. What is the nature of that name affiliation?

Sriram says that "By the 15th Century, Kallinatha refers to the music of south India as Karnataka Sangita"
And kalinatha refers to a broad area between krishna and Kauveri rivers. Is that the same region that was called 'karnAta'?
How far back one can go and find references to Karnataka used in other contexts? That will be very useful to know.

Also, for something to be called with that name in the 15th century, that music itself should have been practiced much before that to get that identity.

Sriram's broad brush of writing that history illustrates my point about abstraction. it can not be all that was there. Tanjore Big temple has enough documentation about temple dancers and musicians. What music were they using? And did all that just die away to be replaced by the music that came from further north. That is a tall claim and requires good historical evidence. (I am not saying that is what Sriram is saying). The point here is, have we sufficiently captured the musical history of CM from the devadAsi and Nadaswaram music traditions and background? I think not, but I would definitely like to be enlightened on that topic.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 29 Apr 2015, 08:15

vasanthakokilam wrote: History is
written by the victors
because the losers are not around to complain about it

VK,
Thanks for the nice way you put it.
It is indeed this aspect of 'victors' which gets the largest share in the article of Sri Ram. Sorry to digress a bit, just to put this in perspective and what it involves.

It happened with World History - euphemism for Colonial version of World History which we all gobbled up, hook, line and sinker. In that History, Hiroshima did not happen - if it happened it is because of good intention to stop the 'aggressor'. No one did even say a word of regret for killing, maiming a whole generation and their descendants. We Indians do not know anything about Japanese version or German version - that is the Macaulay magic. And we are till today spell-bound by it. No one was tried for war crimes.

It happened with Muslim invasion - destroy the culture of the land - impregnate the local women so that the descendants belong to the victors.

Enough to give clues.

RSachi might not know in what high esteem I hold Purandara Dasa. But to suggest that he is the 'originator' of CM - in the sense of 'pitAmaha' is totally wrong. Sri Ram goes on to say about 'imaginations, extrapolation and interpretation'. By that yardstick, the whole of Sangam literature is imagination, extrapolation and interpretation. So is with Ramayana, Mahabharata, Bhagavat Gita, the Vedas, the Upanishads and everything that we hold sacred.

Why don't we get a little further and clarify that all these were revealed in some 'sacred' mount to nomads living in this part of the world?

There is one group in Tamil Nadu who cannot think anything other than Dravida - read Tamil. Kannagi is a character in Silappadikaram who burnt down Madurai by her curse - she is not myth - she is real - that is what we are made to believe.

There seems to be ante-dote for that in Karnataka - the present day one which historicises everything that originated in that 'land' as is known today. Rest is myth.

PS : the word 'pitAmaha' is applied both to grandsire and progenitor. Purandarasa Dasa was grandsire and not progenitor.
May he forgive me. Listen to his kRti - 'kELanO hari tALanO' - What is this 'tALa', 'mELa'; who is this tumburu, nArada, hari, purandara viThala - all must be myth.

https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=BBA ... vdDu_PF1Ps

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 29 Apr 2015, 08:46

To bring some levity, here is a clip that can be blamed for my take on karnATaka'
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FkRV2zhjZB0 - between 2:17 and 2:35.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 29 Apr 2015, 08:58

Myth ... Mythology .....
Man and Mythologies
What are here called the Gods might almost alternatively be called the Day-Dreams. To compare them to dreams is not to deny that dreams can come true. To compare them to travelers' tales is not to deny that they may be true tales, or at least truthful tales. In truth they are the sort of tales the traveler tells to himself. All this mythological business belongs to the poetical part of men. It seems strangely forgotten now adays that a myth is a work of imagination and therefore a work of art. It needs a poet to make it. It needs a poet to criticize it. There are more poets than non-poets in the world, as is proved by the popular origin of such legends. But for some reason I have never heard explained, it is only the minority of unpoetical people who are allowed to write critical studies of these popular poems. We do not submit a sonnet to a mathematician or a song to a calculating boy; but we do indulge the equally fantastic idea that folklore can be treated as a science. Unless these things are appreciated artistically they are not appreciated at all. ................
Mythology is a lost art, one of the few arts that really are lost; but it is an art. The horned moon and the horned mooncalf make a harmonious and almost a quiet pattern. And throwing your grandmother into the sky is not good behavior, but it is perfectly good taste. Thus scientists seldom understand, as artists understand, that one branch of the beautiful is the ugly. ......
The true origin of all the myths has been discovered much too often. There are too many keys to mythology, as there too many cryptograms in Shakespeare. ........
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/c ... rt1c5a.htm

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Apr 2015, 10:29

I must compliment Sri Munirao for generating so much yardage in this thread by his using the word Karnataka Sangeeta.

I refer to a post earlier:
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... ka#p276241

I have no interest in expanding the discussion about history and humility. I will let others do that research

About Kannada, KarnATa and Karnataka. I think it evolved out of the name for the language. There is enough historical evidence and extant literature to show that the language existed and flourished in early Christian era.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 29 Apr 2015, 10:42

The dictionary page shown in my previous post is the Monier Williams (19/20c CE). He refers to Varahamihira's Brihat Samhita (6 century CE, Ujjain) etc.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 29 Apr 2015, 11:35

VGovindan Sir

To treat everything before 9th Century as myth is vulgar - to say the least

Is the reference to the history-origin and development in bad taste or lacks sophistication? It is historical that devotional form of music developed with Saama Veda hymns chanting and later 'gayana'. All the forms of devotional music was termed 'gana'. Haridasas, Bhagavathas, Singers/Devadasi Vidushees, Vaineekas, Nagasvaram Vidwans, flute Vidwans and Percussion Vidwans all developed art form of music which was based on the Dasa Saahithya, Purandara Dasa and Vijaya Dasa's musicology. Initially it was based on the kannada language lyrics, a State Language and later devotional lyrics of Sanskrit, Tamizh, Telugu, Marathi, Malayalam and Tulu were used. Bhagavathas took the lead and contributed for the art music development, recognized in the period of 13th to 15th Century as Karnataka Sangeetham, seamlessly adopting pre existing lyrics, devotional music and 'jana pada' or folk music. Is stating this fact, vulgar?

Art form music transcends geographical regions and languages, with primacy for Sangeetha. The bhaava expression, muted, in akshara is resorted in kruthi/keertana/lyric. In Art form music, the bhaava expression, movement of muted akshara is given through 'svara' and 'raaga'. Art form of music -Karnataka Sangeetham gives equal importance and reverence to Saahithya and Sangeeta Bhaavam. Is this fact is not sophistication ?

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 29 Apr 2015, 12:21

Myth is 'make believe'. Act of setting the beliefs, with motive. Motivation for self gratification, resorts to 'artful' creation of myth for appreciation and acceptance, unquestioningly. With set belief, mind is conditioned. Conditioned mind finds sense of security, ease and comfort in belief. Conditioned minds rejects other belief or insight. When the conditioned mind is confronted with challenges and conflicts, search for clarity and understanding arises. Understanding can be based on either truth or fact. Established truth, need not be based on the facts. Truth in acceptance and application will be in variance, as truth may not be based on the facts. Reality is fact, the ultimate truth with no variance or difference in clarity, understanding and establishment. Insight only gives the perception of reality.

History records both myth and reality, writings with Self pride, prejudice and motives-personal and also Selflessly and impersonally. Unconditioned mind in inquiry can only get the knowledge. With gained knowledge, end to pride, prejudice and conflicts-real or imagined. End to parochialism.

Let us briefly examine the myth making in Karnataka Sangeetam. Purandara Dasa has written few lakhs of lyrics and Thyagaraja has written 24,000 lyrics; Closed doors of the garbha gudi opened; Dead person brought to life etc. Persons with set belief, will accept, unquestioningly and even find justification to be with set belief. Are they facts ? No. What is the effect of myth making in art music? Related Bhakthi bhaavam does not recognize the bhakthi bhaavam realization of beauty in svara and its sanchari etc.of the vaaggeyakara, the original creator and the performer, the re creator of the original.

With inquiry, study of history one can establish the reality. With gained perception of reality, find pleasure in the knowledge. With attainment of pleasure, attain reverence to the growth and development and its contributors. With reverence, acknowledge the greatness with the given identity. In this instance, Karnataka Sangeetham, present edifice built over many centuries and by many Maha Vidwans.

Beyond Karnataka Sangeetham identity, other issues which require clarity, understanding and identity are Tradition, Vak - Geyakara etc being in use with lack of clarity.

munirao2001

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Apr 2015, 18:42

Those of you who can explain lucidly, please comment on Joseph Campbell's understanding of the Four Functions of Myth. I can read it, but though I tried, am not able to post it...

I am sure one of the able procurers will bring the page here...Thanks.

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 29 Apr 2015, 18:54

http://www.trinity.edu/cspinks/myth/cam ... s_myth.pdf

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 29 Apr 2015, 19:12

PBala,
Thanks

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 29 Apr 2015, 20:01

munirao2001 wrote: Initially it was based on the kannada language lyrics, a State Language and later devotional lyrics of Sanskrit, Tamizh, Telugu, Marathi, Malayalam and Tulu were used. Bhagavathas took the lead and contributed for the art music development, recognized in the period of 13th to 15th Century as Karnataka Sangeetham, seamlessly adopting pre existing lyrics, devotional music and 'jana pada' or folk music. Is stating this fact, vulgar?

(I do agree that there is historical record that traces early mela system to the region that is now covered by karnataka, although I thought the main evidence for it was around 14th century and not 9th century. I also have no problems with "karnATaka sangItam". Ironically, to me the word "Carnatic" to has more regional connotations

, that is because my gut-associations are:
"karnATaka" (prefix for KM/CM) to mean old/traditional,
"karnATakA" (with long A at the end) to the state
"Carnatic" as to the region

In any case, regarding the above comment: I think the point others were making that was (1) there was music (specifically, devotional music of the kind clubbed here) in our neck of the woods well before 9th century, (2) not all of them in kannada language nor was "Initially it was based on the kannada language lyrics". If you have historical references to the contrary, please provide them.

Arun

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 30 Apr 2015, 12:12

Arunk Sir,

Happy, you have joined the discussion. First the clarity is required on understanding 'gana' and 'gayana' pre existing from the Vedic period-Saama Veda. The music was to support the rituals, worship and prayers. It was not art form of Karnataka Sangeetham.

I will post about the nascent development recorded in the 9th Century, later. Naraharitirtha, 1324-33, is the pioneer and a Haridasa. His compositions were in Kannada and Sanskrit. He was also pioneer in 'Bayalu Naatakam' , 'Yaksha gaanam' and 'Kuchipudi' sangeetam and nrityam. Sripadaraja, 1404-1502, a Haridasa, has composed devaranaamas/Keertanas, in Kannada (few in Sanskrit). Sripadaraja started the Daasa Saahithya movement with further contributions from Vyasatirtha,1460-1539; Vadirajatirtha,1480-1600; Purandara Dasa, 1484-1564; Kanaka Dasa,1509-1609;Vijaya Dasa,1682-1755; Gopala Dasa,1721-1769; Jagannatha Dasa, 1728-1809; many more. All of them composed in Kannada and few in Sanskrit languages. These compositions were of simple varnamettus, with raaga and tala and different from the existing devotional music. Purandara Dasa learning from Vyasatirtha, did pioneering work on musicology-known as abhyaasa gana with Svaravali;Alankara;Geetham etc. Through Karna parampara, music and its tradition was established. Thyagaraja and Mudduswami Deekshita have acknowledged the 'inspirational' works of Purandara Dasa.

Tallapaaka Annamacharya,1408-1503, has composed 'sankeertanamulu' in Telugu and Sanskrit languages and Kancherla Gopanna, later known as Bhadrachala Raama Dasu, 1620-1680, has composed 'keertanamulu'. Sanggeta karnaparampara of Annamayya was not existing or totally lost, it was recognized as 'pada kavita'. Sangeeta of Bhadrachala Raama Dasu was fortunately preserved through karnaparampara. Thyagaraja has acknowledged him as a great Bhagavatha. Raamadasu keertanamulu are also simple varnamettus with raaga and tala, different from devotional music.

During the Nayak rule, state language was Kannada and Telugu. During the Maratha rule, Telugu attained highest state mainly due to the literary works-puranas and Bhagavathas. With royal patronage, nascent art form found in Devaranamas/Keertanams, Nrithya Geetamulu and musicology of Purandara Dasa developed and came to be known as Karnataka Sangeetham, recognizing the pioneer work of Hari Dasas. Schools and Gurus received the royal patronage to propagate the Karnataka Sangeetham. Works on musicology also received the royal patronage. With works of Kshetrayya, Shyaama Sastri, Thyagaraja and Mudduswami Deekshita, Karnataka Sangeetham attained the status of greatest of art forms strengthened by the great works on musicology.

Respecting history of art form, different from purely devotional music; reverence to the Karnataka Sangeetham, as one of the greatest of art forms developed in human history; Nija Bhakthi to all those Dasas, Bhagavatas and Deekshitas and their art forms of compositions; remembering all the Bhagavatas, Vidwans and Vidushees who have bestowed to us the tradition, tradition of excellence of art and its practice; we realize and attain the ananda, the bliss.

I can only beseech forumites and rasikas to realize and attain the ananda, the bliss of both Naama Sankeertanam and Karnataka Sangeetam, with clarity, understanding and knowledge.

munirao2001

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 30 Apr 2015, 15:27

.
The term 'Carnatic Music' is a popular and widely accepted one, which is used in almost all Music Circles, including many Music Sabhas in BANGALORE ! For example,

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- Nadasurabhi Cultural Association: "Conducts Carnatic music concerts every month"

- R.T. Nagar Cultural Association: "Has conducted Competitions in Carnatic Music"

- Vijaya College of Music: "Pay their respects to the musicians of Carnatic Music"

- Pranava Fine Arts: "Has been regularly conducting Carnatic Concerts"

- Indiranagar Sangeetha Sabha: "Offers Carnatic Vocal, Veena, etc."

- Ranjani Fine Arts: "Has been regularly conducting Carnatic Concerts"

- Sri Rama Lalitha Kala Mandira: "Has been promoting Carnatic Music for over 50 years"

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So, let us continue to use the term 'Carnatic Music' which is familiar, popular and has been in use for a long time.

Incidentally, the term 'Carnatic Music' is also widely used by Carnatic Music Teachers offering tuition through skype !
Please check this: http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... 14#p272514

Moderators:
You may consider shifting the posts on the meaning of the terms 'Carnatic Music' & 'Karnataka Sangeetam' to a separate thread under "Members' Stuff & Lounge"
.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 30 Apr 2015, 17:46

Sir I always write Carnatic music. I intend to name my big bungalow in the future "Villa Carnatic"

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 30 Apr 2015, 18:33

Petit Recoin
looks more like this

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 30 Apr 2015, 18:40

I vote for Carnatic Music and Villa Carnatic (Hope I will be invited for a chamber concert there).

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Apr 2015, 18:59

Chellappa,
That was music (carnatic?) to my ears