Why don't we have "Misra" ragas in Carnatic music?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 12 Apr 2015, 09:09

Day before, a Keralite culture buff and friend commented to me, while recommending that I listen to Kaushiki Chakraborty (he didn't let me tell him I have heard her quite a bit and also chatted with her once), said something significant:
The really great Hindustani musicians go beyond the narrow confines of ragas. They explore music as such, and as they do so, drift from one raga to another, changing scales. They call it Misra-something but really speaking they reach a greater depth of musical experience in the process.

Interesting thoughts. I have heard the big names of HM for many decades. The Misra phenomenon is more pronounced in lighter items like Thumri, in instrumental pieces (shorter pieces), jugalbandi etc. But when a ustad does Misra, you hear oohs and aahs. There is a smug expression on the HM musician's face. Like he has done some great grahabheda a la Abhishek.

I don't claim to be an expert in anything so I ask the rasikas what they feel is the reason they on the other side of the moon have Misra whereas we down in the Carnatic plateau don't have it.

My thoughts:
1. Our concepts of raga itself are firmly grounded in the body of compositions. So the Misra experimentation or improvisation seems to militate against a fundamental aspect of our music.
2. We do have raga malikas. But there we strive to achieve smooth, finessed raga transitions. For us it is not blending ragas but one raga hand-holding with another. Even in ragamalika RTPs.
3. Our ragas are classified clearly in various ways. We even have lecdems all the time on the "correct" way to present a raga. So the Misra kid doesn't have a chance in this set up.
4. A sense of discipline pervades all of CM, even the way accompanists improvise. So all in all a more rigid framework.
5. There are some songs and some ragas with a little ambivalent personality or interpretation, based on some school of approach. But we quickly point out them as exceptions to prove the rule about our ragas.

How did Misra come about in HM? Why not in CM? Your thoughts please!

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 12 Apr 2015, 10:08

Few points
Hm musicians dont go from raga to raga while in misra mode. They drift from the main and keep coming back.
This treatment is reserved not for all ragas but only for few tailend ones..
This is never done in the serious opening phase.
It requires mastery to do this in great style . Hordes of less endowed singers revel in this and it is no wonder they slide down to become ghazal singers.

As to why not in Cm?
Thank God TRS is not within earshot.
But you may have given some artists a new idea for 2015.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 12 Apr 2015, 10:36

Maybe many are doing it unknowingly!

tiruppugazh · Post by **tiruppugazh** » 12 Apr 2015, 11:06

I don't claim to be an expert in anything

Important and necessary for passing opinions here. As for misra ragams in Carnatic music GNB has sung Misra Yaman. MSG has played misra Natakurinji when accompanying, the difference here being that MSG introduces Rageshri phrases effortlessly as both have the same notes! Several of TMK's ragams these days are misra in the modern context though he may justify it as traditional. Finally the number of apaswarams in a concert generally give the broad minded listener a misra feel to all ragams.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 12 Apr 2015, 11:17

Varsha, agree. Please explain the TRS bit.

The Wilson Dcitionary (1832) states:

miśra

[L=30406] [p= 662] .miśra¦ r. 10th cl. (miśrayati) To mix, to join, to blend, to combine.
[L=30407] .miśra¦ mfn. (-śraḥ-śrā-śraṁ) Mixed, mingled, blended. n. (-śraṁ) Mixing, mixture. m. (-śraḥ)
1 An elephant, the fourth of the four classes in which elephants are arranged.
2 A respectable person; in which sense it is a common affix to proper names; or compounded with āryya, as āryyamiśrāḥ.
E. miśra to mix, aff. ac.

Now I think it is not only ragas which are called misra. I can think of a few other misras:
1. Misra Peda (get it in Jayanagar 4th Block next to Janatha Bazaar).
2. Jagannath Misra ( politician with a squint, from Bihar).
3. Misrii - female of the species, which is a sweet: crystallized sugar lumps, and type of confectionery mineral, which has its origins in India and Persia
4. Misra as adulteration ( In Kannada we see "seeme eNNe mishraNa")
5. Amit Mishra of currently Delhi Dare Devils - the commentator said DDD was doomed, as he came to the crease in the IPL match against CSK, saying he can't run too fast. ( Too much Misra Peda or Misrii has that effect on people).

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 12 Apr 2015, 11:45

TRS comes out as a scathing critic of HM ,s capabilities with respect to laya.I understand it as a very conservative stand from a pure practitioner. So it was no wonder he would refer to dhrupads style in glowing terms and even gave snatches of it in some rtps. So from where he stood , khayal itself was a light weight exercise and so thumris and misra stuff would be further down the horrendous road.
No wonder he sang the smallest of tukkadas with the greatest of classical finesse.

Adding to your misra stockpile .
Are you familiar with the senthilgoundamani piece of cpmedy featuring a mixing of sweets?

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 12 Apr 2015, 11:52

kvchellappa wrote:Maybe many are doing it unknowingly!

Good one

Not only hilarious but factual too.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 12 Apr 2015, 11:54

Sir, like all things esoteric, your long tongue twisting mention requires an easy You Tube link for my ingestion. Thank you in advance!

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 12 Apr 2015, 12:05

tried to get a link.
There is a scene which is only next best to the "two plantain " episode.
In this he drops in at a sweet shop , asks the owner to load a kilo of one kind of sweet, then another and yet another.After several types are loaded he requests the bemused owner to mix them all.
And then finally declares . Now give me one kilo of this sweet

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 12 Apr 2015, 12:10

Just yesterday Ajoy pohamkar sang a ragesree . And did the misram business even for this main raga. My mind switched itself off from that point. I like these forays in Hm light music myself . Would you like to savour some great pieces here ?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 12 Apr 2015, 12:24

Varsha,
Yes sir. Please give me one kilo of that!

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 12 Apr 2015, 20:07

Here is one of my favourite mishra rAgAs in HM:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/foweeb

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 12 Apr 2015, 20:20

RSachi, re the concept of "Misram", what I have understood from my HM class is that there may be certain phrase that may not fully fit within the specific Raga's structure in a given composition (at least in a learned musician's mind.) The musician, when he comes upon those places, may have a choice: stay true to the original or improve by "straying" to anya swar where his mind takes him/her without preplanning - though this seems like spontaneous, it is actually well rehearsed beforehand and several variations are tried out to feel for acceptance. HM allows that freedom as long as it is done with mastery. In CM, we generally try to avoid taking those types of compositions for public performance! However, when you are practicing by yourself, you will sometimes get the urge to go Misram! This happens frequently in the Bhajana Sampradayam.

Varshaji explained it beautifully with the "one kilo of the mixed sweets" analogy!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 12 Apr 2015, 21:23

Of course, S_V, there is bound to be a method to the Misra ragas in HM.
I think the approach behoves on the musician to first establish the pure form of the raga. There are then openings to bring in "anya" or varjya" swaras which are not too dissonant. And bringing those swaras cause a tectonic shift in the raga mood. But soon enough they have to bring back the main mood of the raga and move on.

My friend mentioned in the first post perhaps thinks that it is a free for all approach of drifting from scale to scale. But that is not my experience.

But still the question comes up. Why not in CM, as much as it is done in HM, using a similar approach?

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 12 Apr 2015, 21:50

I was discussing this same point this morning with some friends who are bhajan singers. We were listening to Bharat Balvali, singing Hari mhanaa. One of them asked me what raga it was. I thought it was Brindavni. When I listened to the full bhajan, I felt there were some darbari Kanada phrases. Then I told my friend, in HM, there is the ' misra ' concept whereas in CM it is not there. We have the bhashanga ragas, even there the 'anya'' swaras are well defined and only the permitted swaras are allowed.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Apr 2015, 01:27

Whenever I got the impression there is a certain lightness to HM, I attributed that to HM being light on kampita (oscillation) gamaka prayogas and heavy on jArus (Slides), sometimes quite long range slides in slow tempo. Not that one system is completely devoid of each of those but it is the predominant use of one over the other that contribute to the differences in the overall sound and aesthetics. And that was also my own impression as to why the cross over from CM to HM and vice versa is not in droves. Of course all this is not about technical complexity or virtuosity required to be a highly accomplished artist nor the nature of enjoyment one derives from the music. I did not know that TRS had some critical things to say about Khayal as compared to Dhrupad. I am sure TRS came at it from his vantage point of great experience and artistic tastes as Varsha says but at my own totally ignoramus level ( much more so in HM than in CM ), Dhrupad had a certain heaviness to it. I do not think this Kampita vs jaru theory can explain that. I am still haunted by that incredible 'Bhoop from France'.

All this might provide some answers to your question, Sachi, I think you have already gotten to the answer I am getting at in your post.

HM's definition of ragas involves a lot of considerations on aesthetics. They may still be talked about in terms of prayogas but you can see that focus when classifying things or when they adapt a CM raga into HM etc. These kinds of things need to fit into aesthetic frameworks rather than simple syntactic frameworks like Arohana/Avarohana. I think that fundamentally gives them at least the freedom to do a few more things than in CM. Even if people frown on any mixing it is not necessarily about the act of mixing itself but that the mixed output did not taste good. Using Varsha's analogy, what is the use of a kilo of bad tasting mixed sweet. Interestingly, mixing things that are too similar may not work, like Honey and Laddu. That will be just too much but adding some cashew nuts to it might make it a better laddu. If you can produce a better tasting aesthetics with in the same raga framework, I think they will not mind any small deviations in syntax.

Where as in CM, the mix itself is frowned upon except in some limited cases.

CM stresses the syntactic rules more than HM alright but the aesthetically oriented considerations of ragas in CM are contained in the compositions. That also acts as a barrier to mixing anything that is beyond any mixing done in compositions. Like the N2 usage in Bilahari. It is sparingly allowed because there are compositions that allow that in such sparing manner. (In paridanamichithe, charanam uses N2 in one place and it actually sounds pretty good and sounds different enough to make some one sit up and take notice ).

Anyway, please feel free to poke holes in all this, these are just some amateurish impressions..

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Apr 2015, 12:41

Karanataka Sangeetham developed in to one of the greatest of art forms mainly because of excellence in the lakshya and lakshana knowledge and systems. KM has Janaka and Janya raagas. KM raagas with Grha, Anya, Nyaasa, Varjya/Vivadi etc are beautifully structured, not to be mistaken for rigidity. Manodharma aspect never to be lost and rasa/aesthetic is given the primacy in experience. Janaka based on the 72 melakarta and Janya derived from these. Janya are truly 'misra' ragas, with unlimited possibilities and potentialities for creating a new raga- a new misra raaga.

HM is based on the Ragas. When a raga with a note belonging to other raaga family is delineated, it is named misra with a raaga. With the royal patronage to the persian influence in the existing HM-predominantly with Dhrupad, with Bhakthi/keertana-devotional form, adopted and developed 'art' form of HM with khyal with primacy for melody, Sringar-romantic and erotic-in few compositions and laya, minimal use of lyric and tala, the art form gained popularity and got well established. Other forms did suffer due to neglect but for the dedication and commitment of great ustads and pandits, they would have been lost.

All the artists trained in KM are able to comprehend and sing any melody of world music, including KM, with relative ease and comfort due to the lakshya and lakshana based on the twelve svaras/notes. Only very few artists of other genre succeed in KM.

munirao2001

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 13 Apr 2015, 13:12

Sir, I agree.
I do think the mishra ragas in HM come out less due to lakshana and more "ranjakatva". Their raga system is also based on Thaat and loosely a type of janya/mela system. I think the most fundamental difference in the melodic structure arises between HM and CM due to the absence/presence of the great musical compositions which drive the structure significantly. (Laya is a different subject again!)

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 13 Apr 2015, 13:39

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/xnyq3yeefb8jp/Misra

I will be uploading a few representative tracks here.
To the question Why not in cm ?
Here is another uneducated guess .
HM effort at the major raga of the concert can be cathartic experience for the performer as well as the listener . The experience of staying true and firmly to a specified imagert for something like an hour .One cant relax in this phase . And so in the tailend extension these methods prop up. To give another analogy , it is a bit like the dash we have when long distance overnight buses have their only stop -for tea or whatever . It is a release . To the artist it is fum to keep straying.No wonder artists like Amir Khan and Mansoor never indulged in these .
There are other angles too , like Benarasi angle , The association of this mode only with few ragas and not major ragas (one does not do a misra malkauns), the propensity of instrumentalists to do this , the association of this more with the folk elements of imagery ( one of the clip of Jagdish prasad talks beautifully of a poet not minding the burning down of mahals as long as the jhopdi of his earliest memories are intact .

so here are the clip RSachi and more if you want . It is a fine scalpel this misra business in hm . But one has to shed the conservatism a bit and walk a bit further . Like the night passenger who walks at the halt ,exploring the darkness , one eye on the bus which has to carry him to his destination

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 13 Apr 2015, 14:07

Varsha,
Beautiful effort and imagery. Thank you.
Right now Bangalore is getting washed afresh in a cool downpour and the room temp in my humble home is 18 deg C.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Apr 2015, 14:12

RSachi Sir,

HM artist offer of misra of anya raaga with the main raga-Raaga Thaat, is also based on the lakshana, lakshana of anya raaga. As varasha has pointed out different gharanas have the sampradaya of misra raagas and they used to strictly adhere and follow. With gharanas also becoming misra, this sampradaya is either lost or observed in breach, unquestioningly. Resorting to misra is primarily to showcase the skill/vidwath of control and for pleasure, is secondary.
Misra, offering a change, of variety, of interest are offered in aalaap , bol taans and sargam, sans lyric. Bandish/composition is important manodharma aspect in HM, with supremacy for sangeeth bhaav over sahithya bhaav. In KM, sangeeta and saahithya bhaavams are equal in importance, but primacy for sangeeta rasa/aesthetic.

munirao2001

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 13 Apr 2015, 14:50

Enjoy ur weather Sir.While we enjoy ours.Let me know if you liked ambuva kee daleee and torvis effort. I love them as much as I adore jagdish prasad. Ajoy ofcourse is the master in these matters. Making this bunch was itself a pleasure

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 13 Apr 2015, 15:48

vk
that incredible bhoop from france .made me go all the way to coimbatore just for his concert at isha yoga centre. Late in the night , at the cool foot hills, all lights switched off save a few...a masterly jait sree . impossible to describe the effect on the senses.
there is more to dhrupad than what meets the ear

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 13 Apr 2015, 15:54

Varsha,
I downloaded and heard Misrakirvani of Ajoy Chakraborty - very enjoyable showmanship. I heard Misramand of Rajguru. Very conventional.
Will sample the rest by and by.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 14 Apr 2015, 10:25

thanks
have concluded with a brilliant bhajan by anup jalota video which is a bit like what we have in cm
enjoyable..as in "ranjakatva""
this video was a rage when I first put this here fifteen years ago

I maintain misratwam is serious business in hm. One has to factor in scenes like a wailing nawab being exiled ,or that of a damsel in a village fair comparing the colors in her bangles with those on the turban of her beloved .
A breezy comment on the possibility that seriousness in Life may be wrong after all

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 14 Apr 2015, 10:56

The Idyllic World of Misra

The sounds of the harmonium beckon us
To a faraway world of nabobs.
Turbans, bangles, anklets,veils,
Swords and spears all round.
Hookahs and marble verandahs abound.

The tabla recalls horses, palanquins.
On a ridge moving in a gentle sway.
Elephants raising much dust
As they lead the way.

The singer tells us the world of Misra is here.
Varsha, the muse, pauses.
Thinks of gallantry and gore.
Lovelorn song and more.

Misra is no accident. It is life's deep design to make us
Sigh and ask for more. Colours. Flavours. Rains. Laughs. Tears. Moonlight. Songs. Dances.
The rhapsody of life, Varsha says, comes wrapped in Misra.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 14 Apr 2015, 11:01

Idyllic?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 14 Apr 2015, 11:06

Beautiful

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 14 Apr 2015, 12:17

Chellappa sir,
Typo corrected. Thx!

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 17 Apr 2015, 09:56

Rsachi, will you accept Mohana kalyani or Bilahari as Misra raga? Or is it enough an anyswara occurs in a scale?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 18 Apr 2015, 19:47

This question is a good one for Ilaya Raja. He comes up with beautiful tunes keeping CM as the background for creation of cine music with the support and guidance of Sri Balamurali Krishna

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 18 Apr 2015, 22:24

Mohana Kalyani and Bilahari are classified as bhashanga ragas under carnaticmusic. In a bhashanga raga, the 'anya' swaram/s is/are well defined. Only those that are defined as so in the raga lakshana, occur. Whereas in the misra ragas of th HM , I think different gharanas have different 'anya swaras' . I may be wrong and if so, some one knowledgeable may correct me and explain it.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2015, 00:50

A lot of what we call as knowledge in all walks of life is mere 'knowing what a word stands for' which in itself is only of limited utility. That limited utility is one of syntactic compression, using a short word to refer to a longer list of words. What 'it actually is' is many orders of magnitude more significant. (as an aside to this aside, my hope for the next evolution in human intellectual matters is all that knowledge in the first sense is just an 'app' thus freeing humanity from all that drudgery.)

The former activity is unfortunately termed 'arguing about semantics' which is a disservice to the word 'semantics' since that word should really more about the latter. But that is a lost cause.

Having said all that, let us settle on the semantics.

Upanga ragas : These are the ragas that are strictly derived from their parent melakarta raga and do not use any note not found in the parent raga's scale. A raga like Mohana Kalyani that uses two parent scales one for the ascent and one for the descent is still a Upanga raga.

Bhashanga ragas: these are the ragas that have anya swara(s), notes that are not found in parent scale(s)) in their ārohaṇa, avarohaṇa or both.
By this definition, Bilahari is a bhashanga raga because it very occasionally uses kaisiki nishadham (N2) as an external note (anya swara). Kambhoji is also Bhashanga by this definition. Now Bhairavi is also called a Bhashanga raga which I think is dubious by the strict definition since both D1 and D2 are integral parts of the raga, one should not be considered Anya. But that is subject to interpretation and we will leave it at that

Misra ragas: Here a Upanga is deviated further for aesthetic or other reasons. This can be in a composition itself or in a performance like an alapana. It is not called a bhashanga raga since the deviation is temporary and more importantly the variations are not strictly codified. So if someone use G3 in Sivaranjani, it is called Misra Sivaranjani. (I guess this can happen to a bhashanga raga itself but that may be very rare.)

I guess it is possible for a Misra raga to become a bhashanga raga over time if the aesthetics produced by the mixing is strong enough that it takes root and a lot of performers stick to the variation in well formed ways. My own hypothesis/speculation is 'sindhu bhairavi' is probably such a raga. It is Bhashanga now but at one point it could have been a Misra raga.

Circling back to my initial rant, what is important about 'misra' is not just the definition of it but the aesthetic and musical reasoning behind the mixing, what emotional state of the composer or performer led to it and how listeners relate to it. I think there lies a difference between CM and HM in the musicological and scholarly aspects. CM focusses on the former and HM focusses on the latter. The other part is not excluded from each system but it is just the focus that is different.

On the musical and aesthetics side, both systems are equally adept and beautiful, for which we should be eternally thankful.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 19 Apr 2015, 04:39

I stand corrected. Mohana Kalyani is not a bhashanga ragam,If we take it as the derivative of the melakartha, Mechakalyani.
Normally in Carnatic music, a janya raga is taken as the derivative of the first melakartha in the katapayAdi system which has the corresponding swaras. For example , Mohanam, which has the madyamam and nishAdam absent , could be the derivative of four possible mELkarthA rAgams, harikAmbhOji, SankarAbharaNam, vAchaspati and kalyANi. But it is conventional to take it as the janyam of harikAmbhOji, which occurs first in the said system .Hence, if we take mOhanakalyANi as the derivative of mEchakalyAni, it is not a bhAshAnga rAgam.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 19 Apr 2015, 12:15

I am returning from Hyderabad. There is a delightful restaurant called Rotis there and they served a chat platter.. It had four types of chat - Janya, Bhashanga, Misra, and Melakarta. The dominant theme in all if them was CM = chilly and masala.

I strongly suspect the Bikaner gharana exponent who mixed it all up serves a different variation of Misra all the time.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 20 Apr 2015, 10:42

Heard today on 100.1FM a brilliant Ahir Lalit from an album titled modestly as "The Genius of Pt. Ajoy Chakraborty" . The Oxford Encyclopedia of Indian classical music describes it as a raga combing Ahir Bhairav and Lalit.
After that they started a new programme well done about the janyas of Major ragas in CM! Today was Harikambhoji. Well done programme.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Apr 2015, 19:52

By the definition we are using, would Ahir Lalit be called a Misra raga? I would think not ( but if it is, the definition needs updating)

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 20 Apr 2015, 20:16

In hindustani music ahirlalit would be called a samyukta rAgA.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 20 Apr 2015, 20:19

I agree with Lakshman. that it doesn't directly earn the name of Misra. I think by and large the word Misra is applied to one main raga with spontaneous or impromptu digressions in notes and returning to the main raga swarupa.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Apr 2015, 23:48

samyukta (संयुक्त) means "united, joined together, connected, related etc" and it makes sense why they would call it that.

------
While the term makes sense, hope the scholarly community does not make it another one of those things that illustrate clearly what I was saying before that mundane terminology get conflated with scholarly knowledge. I surely hope someone does not ask a question like 'what is a samyukta raga?' in music exams. (My go-to example for such non-knowledge questions is 'what is an audava shadava raga?'). I guess if one makes all exams 'open internet' exams, then these kinds of things will stop being considered knowledge and will save humanity from making space for all this stuff in their brains. The right question to ask to test someone's musical knowledge is 'if a raga is evolved using two existing ragas it is called a Samyukta raga. One such example is ahirlalit. Do you know any samyukta raga? If so sing it and explain how the aesthetics of the two ragas are combined to form this raga'.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 21 Apr 2015, 11:47

As Sri Lakshman Sir has pointed out when the two distinct ragas are 'joined together' with 'connected, related' aesthetic, artist creatively constructs a new aesthetic in 'unison', it is samyuktha raga. Taking resort to misra is for creative foray of unrelated and unconnected note (s) in the notes of the main raaga, with intent to show case the mastery and excitement on account of surprise element.

munirao2001

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 23 Apr 2015, 14:27

I strongly suspect the Bikaner gharana exponent who mixed it all up serves a different variation of Misra all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misal
Misal (Marathi:मिसळ), meaning "mixture", is a delicacy in the western Indian state of Maharashtra.
The dish originates from the area of Desh, Maharashtra.
Available across Bangalore

A misra dES beauty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i40o6DEdIy0

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 23 Apr 2015, 15:05

Varsha, simply priceless! See the lyric:

Phir kahee
Phir kahee koyi phul khila, chahat naa kaho usako
Phir kahee koyi phul khila, chahat naa kaho usako
Phir kahee koyi dip jala, manjil naa kaho usko
Phir kahee

Mann kaa samundar pyasa huwa, kyun kisi se mange duwa
Mann kaa samundar pyasa huwa, kyun kisi se mange duwa
Leharo kaa laga jo mela, tufan naa kaho usako
Phir kahee koyi phul khila, chahat naa kaho usako
Phir kahee

Dekhe sab woh sapne, khudhi sajaye jo hamne
Dekhe sab woh sapne, khudhi sajaye jo hamne
Dil unse bahel jayey toh, rahat naa kaho usako
Phir kahee koyi phul khila, chahat naa kaho usako
Phir kahee koyi dip jala, manjil naa kaho usko
Phir kahee.

What a subtle, blasé attitude to life! Sanjeev Kumar excelled in such roles.

And Tanuja is a class act indeed. Her daughter has inherited all her acting gifts!

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 23 Apr 2015, 15:25

Which brings us back to your question.Why don't we have "Misra" ragas in Carnatic music?
One of the answers could be that
CM is all sanity , all about philosophical wisdom , all about an exultation ......hermetically sealed.
HM with its proximity to seasons , moods and scents lets in the twilight.
Here are two excerpts from Brij Bhusan Kabra and Chaurasia weaving patterns around desh and malhars.
From Very popular albums of the 80s.Enjoy

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/af9ci60 ... f_Life.mp3
Miya Malhar, Gaud Malhar, Desh Malhar, Loor Sarang

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/8mcccns ... urasia.mp3

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 23 Apr 2015, 16:09

In fact, Varsha, I want to invoke the "B" word. The ritualised world of the "B" distances itself from the fragrances of the earth. When CM falls into the hands of these exponents and composers, you get a grammatically (more tight than hermetic!) sealed set of impulses which pass for "pristine" music. To the extent that someone is quoted as having said, "what kind of flute music would Krishna have produced (read...crude and trivial). Even the flautists of 50 years before Mali simply trilled from their pipes".

Sophistication is actually a negative word in the dictionary.

Credit to all the current day innovators like TMK, Jaishree, GK, and others who want to cross borders and break rules to reach out and connect. With the listener, with the earth, and with life.

It is a tribute to the genius of Carnatic music that we have held high the nagaswara tradition. It somehow is rooted in earthiness, so much so that it creates a connected aura of Life around a confined sanctum. It takes us beyond the rituals of CM.

Am I making sense?

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 23 Apr 2015, 20:47

What's the B word? Can't think of anything that fits.. Bhagavatars? Boring sticklers for random rules established as conventions?

You do (otherwise) make sense.. Love the last paragraph.. you describe the aura of positivity, of joyful living, vigor.

I am also reminded of a line in the book by Lakshmi Devnath about LGJ where she says he was worried about being so technical that he would lose his innocence.. Somthing to that effect. I will return with the correct quote. That was the one line I adored and took away and was touched by, so much for sophistication - and he was no technical nitwit.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 23 Apr 2015, 22:51

Ranganayaki wrote:What's the B word? Can't think of anything that fits.. Bhagavatars? Boring sticklers for random rules established as conventions?

RSachi,
I am keen to know what this 'B' word is. If it is indeed 'Bhagavata' your statements cannot go unchallenged.
Please be kind enough to clarify. Let us not talk in riddles.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 23 Apr 2015, 23:29

I will let others like Varsha guess the "B" word. It has surely come up several times before in the context of CM here...

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 24 Apr 2015, 06:48

Relieved that you said "others like Varsha". So I can wait

Here are two snaps of Mansoor . One from a straight jacket newspaper reporter

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/i45r5ql ... ansoor.mp3
Another from a photographer Poet - Raghu Rai who has captured the essence of Mansoor's music .Can one limit the bombardment on the senses on such an open road ?

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/oopatj0 ... u_Ayya.mp3

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 24 Apr 2015, 09:38

Oh, I got it - the B word.. and I understand Varsha's trepidation. Sri Govindan, you took me way too seriously..

, and once you know the B word, I don't think YOU would seriously challenge. I'd love to know if I'm wrong

.