Another kaTapaYAdi puzzle resolved!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 22 Mar 2008, 20:15

The Govt of TN has no right o take it away from them and destroy the sanctity

We are entering into a sensitve area. However, in response to what you have mentioned, I may state that as Godhead is beyond all the language-race-country-religion-community confines, to resist singing Thevaram in Chidambaram Temple does not go to the credit of Dikshitars. This kind of short sightedness only has exacerbated the issues allowing others, waiting for loopholes, to establish their foothold and to exploit the situation.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Mar 2008, 20:56

Of course Kambar was denied permission to do his arangERRam at the sannidhi of Govindaraja perumaaL and apparently the priests had not learned the lesson

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 23 Mar 2008, 01:14

As he grew up he approached vyAgrapAda and both of them went to winess Siva dancing at citsabha at thillai where the present Nataraja temple is at Chidambaram. Both of them prayed to the Lord to stay in the dance posture at Chidambaram for the benefit of humanity and he obliged.

Here is how GKB describes when and where it happened - naTanamADinAr, vasantA
A: vaDakayilaiyil munnAl mAmunikku aruL SeidapaDi tavarAmal
tillaippatiyil vandu tai mAdattil guru pUshattil pagal nErattil

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Mar 2008, 03:37

That was a superb song and the dance by kumaari kamala in those days was also unforgettable!

sanskritscholar · Post by **sanskritscholar** » 24 Mar 2008, 20:52

cmlover wrote:
I agree about the redundancy (but as much as Paninian sUtras are concise, so also are superfluity in sanskrit expressions (which is a beauty!). Let us leave it at that.

My point is not about superfluity in a poetic composition, but about meaning. I meant that the suffix -ja would be superfluous for the meaning you want to express.

I don't want to extend this thread beyond its natural life, so I'll agree to disagree and then leave it at that.

Vararuci was at the court of Vikramaditya and his being a Keralite as questionable as Bhasa being a Keralite!

Which Vikramaditya?

Almost anybody who was somebody in the history of Sanskrit literature is given the address of Vikramaditya's court. So, Vikramaditya's court is as questionable as (or more) than Kerala, for Vararuchi's domicile!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Mar 2008, 23:30

Just checkout
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikramaditya
he is listed as one of the nine gems!
His presence in V's court is as authentic as Kerala was created by ParashurAma

you know:
paurANikAnAM vyabhicAradOShO nAsha^NkanIyaH k^RitibhiH kadAcit |
purANakartA vyabhicArajAtaH tasyApi putrO vyabhicArajAtaH ||

(I think you do not need a translation being a scholar (but maybe an explanation, I presume!)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Mar 2008, 18:17

SS is a hit and run. I doubt he will respond to my post and hence I have decided to conclude this thread with a MangaLam that is appropriate in the Kalidasa legend style with an appropriate anecdote displaying the vyabhicaaritvam of the pauraNika legitimizing the connection between kalidasa and vararuci

Here we go!

King Vikarmaditya (call him Bhoja if you like

announced that he would amply reward a poem that concluded as kaH khaH gaH ghaH
He knew very well that kalidasa will take the bait and decided to watch him operate and hence secretly followed him in disguise.
Kalidas indeed had no clue. As he was walking by he saw a little girl and the following conversation ensued:
Kalidasa: kA tvaM bAlE (who are you girl?)
Girl: kA~ncanamAlA (I am kaancanamaala)
Kalidas: kasyAH putrI (whose daughter are you? )
Girl: kanakalatAyAH (I am the daughter of Kanakalata)
Kalidasa: hastE kiM tE ( what are they in your hands ?)
Girl: taalI patraM (They are writing leaves)
Kalidasa: kA vA rEkhA (what are those writings ?)
Girl: kah khaH gaH ghaH (It is ka kha ga gha (alphabets))

The excited Kalidasa put them all together and loudly sang:
kA tvam bAlE kA~ncamAlA kasyAH putRI kanakalatAyAH |
hastE kim tE tAlIpatram kA vA rEkhA 'kaH khaH gaH ghaH' ||
and shouted 'EurEkA' (don't know in Sanskrit (SS pl help

(This is where the traditional legend stops but let us get behind the scenes!)
As Vikramaditya had secretly witnessed the events he thought that it was just serendipity and kalidas deserved no credit. If at all the girl deserved some remuneration.

As he returned to the palace he saw the excited Kalidasa coming towards him clutching a sheaf of leaves.

I will continue the second part of the story if there is any interest (or perhaps our dear SS can take over

sanskritscholar · Post by **sanskritscholar** » 27 Mar 2008, 22:08

Keep going, cmlover! My personal style is rather more laconic, hence my relative silence.

hanta is the closest I can think of for eureka. Perhaps "haa u haa u haa u" will impart some saamavedic flavor. This is a music discussion board, after all.

Anyway, check out http://mystiqueindia.info/vara/intro.html - we can both have a cake and eat it too

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Mar 2008, 00:39

Thanks SS! will continue with the story tomorrow in case others are also interested! This is primarily a music site !
'hanta' among other things expresses surprise and "haa u haa u haa u" (as from the taitriya upanishad) expresses wonderment. They may be adequate, I was also looking in the Archmidean fashion for an element of 'kauthukaM' (curiosity)
Reminds me of a nice joke involving a Grammarian who was precise in his expressions. He was discovered by his wife in the act of having an illicit love with the servant maid. The wife exclaimed " Oh Dear! I am simply surprised at your behaviour". The Grammarian recovering his gravity retorted: "Honey! You are just shocked at my behaviour. I am the one who is surprised! "

Thanks for that splendid Ref. Doesn't it make us feel proud of our Heritage !

Did you find out the hidden meaning in that pauraNika verse that I posted?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Mar 2008, 06:43

As king Vikramaditya saw kalidasa approachig him with 'tAlIpatram' clutched in his
hands he acted innocent and said:
King: kO atra bhavAN (who is there?)
Kalidasa: ahaM kALidAsaH (It is me Kalidasa)
King: kim vA paThasi (What are you reading?)
Kalidasa: kaTapayAdi sUtra AyuShman (It is katapayaadi sutra My Lord!)
Without batting an eye the king continued:
King: hastE kiM tE (What are they in your hands?)
Starting to get suspicious Kalidasa continued:
Kalidas: tAlI patraM (They are writing leaves)
Thinking that he had trapped Kalidasa the king continued
King: kA vA rEkhA (What are those writings ?)
Kalidasa by now knew well that the king had followed him up and was aware of the
whole episode. He responded coolly :
Kalidasa: Eka dvi tri catura (one, two, three, four)
The King was taken aback. He wanted to see the scrolls and remarked
King: idaM akSharANi kaH khaH gaH ghaH iti (This is alphabet ka kha ga
gha)
Smiling kalidasa added:
Kalidasa: AM AyuShman! EtAni sankhyA kaTapayAdi prakArENa likhitAni| vararuci
samyak jAnAti (Yes my Lord! These are numerals written as per kaTapayAdi
scheme. Vararuci knows them well.)
The King sent for Vararuci forthwith who came and confirmed that the coding was
right but Kalidasa had not followed the cailAjinakushOttara nyAya expounded by the
Lord krishna

Suddenly there was a loud rumbling noise.
King: ahO! mahAn shabdaH shrutavAN (Hallo! I heard a loud noise)
Vararuci: AyuShmaN idaM mEghaH garjanaM (My Lord! This is the rumbling of the cloud)
Kalidasa intervened
Kalidasa: gharaghara ravaM ghaH khE karOti ka (It is the gurgling sound
of Lord ganesha in the heaven Oh King!)
King: (vismayapUrvaM) ataH kiM ( ( showing astonishment)Then what?)
Kalidasa:
gharaghara ravaM ganEshaH divi karOti rAjaN!
gAyati
kakAraM rAjAnaM sUcayati
khakAraM tu divaM
gakAraM gaNapatiM manyE
ghakAraM garagarAravaM
iti
kaH khaH gaH ghaH

(It is the gurgling sound of Lord ganesha in the heaven Oh King!
(sings)
The 'ka' letter signifies the King
the 'kha' letter is Heaven
the 'ga' lettter I know is gaNapati
the 'gha' letter represents the gurgling sound
Hence (it is)
ka kha ga gha)
King: prakAshaM kurutAM (please enlighten us)
Kalidasa: ghaH iti gharaghara caturakSharANi iti sankhyA catura
gaH iti gaNEshaH triakSharANi iti sankhyA tri
khaH iti divi dvE akSharE iti sankhyA dvi
kaH iti nA EkAkSharam iti sankhyA Eka
sammilita
kaH khaH gaH ghaH
(punarAha)
yadA gharghararavaM ganEshaM gaganE karOti rAjaN
tatra kaTapayAti prakArENa sankhyA bhavati
'kaH khaH gaH ghaH'
('ghaH' means gharaghara sound; four letters which is number four
'gaH' means gaNEsha; three letters which is number three
'khaH' means heaven; two letters which is number two
'kaH' means Leader (king)(it is the nominative singular of the root 'n^Ri'); which
is one letter hence number one and
collectively (you get) 'kaH khaH gaH ghaH'
(Repeats)
When Ganesha in hheaven makes the gurgling sound Oh Rajan! then by the
kaTapayAdi order the numbers become 'kaH khaH gaH ghaH')

Everybody was just speechless
King Vikramaaditya recovering composure says:
King: sAdhu sAdhu! upamA kALidAsasya...
iti niShkrAntAH sarvE |
(exeunt)

And by the pauranika vyabhacAritvam that I had hinted, when this story passes into
history the connection between Kalidasa and Vararuci will be well established as
also the origin of the kaTapayAdi scheme as immortalized by the great kalidasa
himself.

FINIS

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Mar 2008, 07:11

magnum oeuvre! hA u hA u hA u (keeping within the musical sense).

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 28 Mar 2008, 08:01

Thanks Arasi! The inspiration comes from you people!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 30 Mar 2008, 19:09

In vAlmIki rAmAyaNa - (Gita Press Gorakhpur), two rules - Eka SEsha dvanda aka kapinjalAdhikaraNa nyAya are mentioned. The name of author of the commentary is given as 'Ramayana SirOmaNi'
According to this nyAya 'daSa' will be split as 'daSa ca daSa ca daSa ca'. Therefore, 'daSa' in fact will mean 'thirty'.
By this definition, the distance between Prayag to Chitrakoota - daSa krOSa or ardha tRtIya yOjana (2 and a half) - is taken as 30 krOSa or 7 and a half yOjanas ie 60 miles. (1 yOjana = 4 krOSa; 1 krOSa = 2 miles approx)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 30 Mar 2008, 20:39

Very interesting. The Eka shESha dvanda is a well-known grammatical rule where only one word is retained for multiple occurrence (but the number vibhakti should be kept). For example rAmasca rAmasca will be rAmau, rAmasca rAmasca rAmasca ...(three or more) will be rAmAH . But when it is three or more the numbers will be indeterminate unless it is separately specified. The invocaion of the kapinjala adhikaraNa nyAya is quite clever. This is the application of the rules of the Mimamsa sastra. For a brief reference of the rules see:
http://www.payer.de/dharmashastra/dharmash02.htm

Another important principle is that the plural number in the injunctive sentence always refers to the figure three. In the context of the Ashvamedha sacrifice, there is an injunction ' He offers kapinjalas to the spring season'. Here the expression 'kapinjalÃ¢n' in the plural number refers to the three kapinjala birds and not one or two.

Accordingly the dasha referenced ( VGV could you kindly provide the chapter and verse reference ) will mean dasha ca dash sca dasha ca i.e., 30.
(By the by I am sure you meant ardha saptIya yOjana (7 an a half)).

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 30 Mar 2008, 21:30

The verses are -
ayOdhyA kANDa - Chapter 54 - Sage bharadvAja to SrI rAma -
daSa krOSa itastAta giriryasmin nivatsyasi |
maharshi sEvitaH puNyaH parvataH Subha darSanaH|| 28 ||
(here 'daSa' has been taken to mean 30 - after applying the rule)

ibid - Chapter 92 - Sage bharadvAja to bharata -
bharatArdha tRtIyEshu yOjanEshvajanE vanE |
citra kUTa giristatra ramya nirjhara kAnanaH || 10 ||
(here 'ardha tRtIyEshu' (2 and a half) has been taken to mean 7 and a half - after applying the rule)

PS : Chapter No (54) amended.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Mar 2008, 02:22

Thanks VGV
It is Ayodhya kaaNDaM Chapter 54 verse 28 (page 375 in the Gorakpur publication). The second reference is correct but the interpreetation is wrong!
ardha t^RitIya means three and a half and not two and a half yOjanas. Check
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ayodhya/s ... _frame.htm

On second thought the explanation appears farfetched and contrived to me. In that case all plural references in Ramayana will have to be tripled

I doubt Valmiki meant it so!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 31 Mar 2008, 09:47

cml,
I stand corrected regarding chapter number - 54.

Regarding Chapter 92, in the printed book, it has been translated as '2 and a half' and interpreted as '7 and a half'.

However, I have checked the web version (seems to be Gorakhpur version only)
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ayodhya/s ... _frame.htm - Chapter 54
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ayodhya/s ... _frame.htm - Chapter 92

In the web version, in Chapter 92, it has been translated as '3 and a half' yOjana and '28 miles' - but the formula of Eka SEsha dvanda has not been applied here.
On the other hand, in Chapter 54, the formula has been applied and interpreted as '60 miles'.

Therefore, there is a variation between the statements of Sage bharadvAja made to rAma and bharata. However, if we go by the Dictionary meaning of 'ardha' (given below), then there is no variation, but only the interpretation varies.

yOjana - as per Monier's Dictionary -

sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8 Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ;

krOSa - as per Monier's Dictionary -

the range of the voice in calling or hallooing "' , a measure of distance (an Indian league , commonly called a Kos= 1000 Dan2d2as = 4000 Hastas = 1/4 Yojana ; according to others = 2000 Dan2d2as = 8000 Hastas = 1/2 Gavyu1ti)

'ardha' - as per Monier's Dictionary -

a peculiar kind of compound is formed with ordinals [cf. Pa1n2. 1-1 , 23 Comm.] e.g. %{ardha-tRtIya} , containing a half for its third , i.e. two and a half ; %{ardha-caturtha} , having a half for its fourth , three and a half.)

It seems the Tamil 'kUppiDu dUram' is equal to 'krOSa'; and Tamil 'kAdam' is equal to 'yOjana'.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Mar 2008, 09:59

Thanks! That is new and educational! I will examine it more carefully . Maybe our SS also can help in this investigation!
kUppiDu thUram has to be less than 2 miles since human voice will never carry that far. But then Lord NarayaNa did respond to Gajendra as soon as he called whence Satya loka itself is at kUppiDu thUram

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 31 Mar 2008, 10:47

CML, I just read your story. Quite creative. Nicely done.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 31 Mar 2008, 11:06

cml,
Regarding the 'krOSa' being equal to 'kUppiDu dUram', I made the observation based on what is given in the Dictionary meaning of 'krOSa'

the range of the voice in calling or hallooing

- quoted in my post

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Mar 2008, 18:50

Thanks VK

jayachAmarAja · Post by **jayachAmarAja** » 01 Apr 2008, 23:09

vgvindan wrote:
The Govt of TN has no right o take it away from them and destroy the sanctity
We are entering into a sensitve area. However, in response to what you have mentioned, I may state that as Godhead is beyond all the language-race-country-religion-community confines, to resist singing Thevaram in Chidambaram Temple does not go to the credit of Dikshitars. This kind of short sightedness only has exacerbated the issues allowing others, waiting for loopholes, to establish their foothold and to exploit the situation.

I am surprised to see this coming from you.. such comments coming from well-intentioned people do more harm than good..

BACKGROUND:

Many of my friends and some email acquaintances called me on the Chidambaram Nataraja Mandir issue. A few of them simply got carried away by reports in the mainstream media, which as always, is far removed from the truth.

"What is Kanakasabhai? What is its significance in Chidambaram Mandir"?
"Why are Dikshitars anti-Tamil"?
"Why can't they allow a non-Brahmin, Arumugaswamy to render Thevaram?"
" Why are only Brahmins allowed to render Devsaram at the Kanakasabhai?
"Does this not reflect caste-discrimination of the Brahmins?"
" Why is the Tamil Thevaram not sung at the Kanagasabai and Pujas done only in Samskritam?"

Should not the Government step in and correct the anomaly in the rendering of the pujas?, a score of similar questions, shot at me with the tirelessness of Arjuna.

While I answered each of my caller and visitor patiently, it has also prompted me to write a piece on this if only to help clear the misconceptions of all people including some of my Brahmin friends.

The Mandir follows the 6 KAla Pujas, traditionally. The Dikshitars render the 6 KAla Pujas inside the Garbha Griha. At the end of each of these 6 KAla Puja, an OduvAr Murthy RENDERS the Tamil Hymns like the Thevaram. Just as a traditional priest is trained in all Samskrit Pujas, Shastras in a PAtashAla under a guru, the Oduvar Murthys are also trained in a PAtasAla in Tamil Hymns of prayer from a very young age and become experts in the rendering of these Soulful Hymns.

Do the Oduvars sing from the Kanakasabhai? Why should only Brahmins sing from the Kanakasabhai?

This is a mischievous propaganda of the atheists and the government headed by a self-proclaimed, yellow-shawl-wearing-atheist, Karunanidhi. Kanakasabhai is the Arthamandapam in Chidambaram Mandir. Kanakasabhai houses the Spatika Lingam of Chandramouleeswara along with Nandi Bhagawan and Rathna Sabhapathi. This place is revered with the same sanctity reserved normally for the Garbha Griha. That only Brahmins are permitted to sing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai or that Non-Brahmins are prohibited from singing Thevaram from Kanakasabhai is a deliberate lie to show the Dikshitars in poor light. The fact is that NOBODY, NOT BRAHMINS, NOT NON- BRAHMINS are permitted to sing Thevaram or for that matter any Slokas and in any language in the Kanakasabhai. The rights rest only with the Dikshitars to offer the traditional Pujas to the Bhagawan, including singing of the Thevaram from Kanakasabhai.

Bhaktas, irrespective of their caste can sing any Tamil hymn from anywhere other than the Arthamandapam, the Kanakasabhai, which is the exclusive domain of the Dikshitars. Just because I have learnt all the mantras from the CD, I cannot claim it my right to recite the Abhisheka mantras from the Garbha Griha at the Bhagawan Balaji Mandir, Tirupati, even if I am a Brahmin by birth and that it was my late Grandfather who gave from the Mandir, the world famous Tirupati Laddu.

Why are Dikshitars Anti-Tamil?

Nothing can be farther from the truth than this. While the Vaishnava priests who are well-versed in all the Agamic Samskrit pujas, be it Vaikhanasa or Pancharatra, are also well trained by the Guru ParamparA, in rendering the soul-stirring PAsurams of the AzhvArs, NAlayara Divya Prabandham etc., which are in exquisite Tamil; the Dikshitars spend years to get trained under their Gurus in both the Agamic and the Tamil Hymns of the Shaiva NAyanmArs etc., They are trained to render them in perfect diction. Many people are not aware that the Pujas in the Nataraja Mandir is not complete with just the traditional rendering of Sankrit Slokas in the Garbha Griha. The Pujas are complete only after the rendering of the Thevaram etc., in mellifluous voice by the Oduvar Murthys and the Dikshitars.

Does the HR&CE have the right to interfere?

The HR&CE has no right to interfere in the affairs of the Chidambaram Mandir.

Even in Mandirs under its control, the HR&CE has NO right to interfere in the Religious affairs, Pujas, Puja Vidhanas as per the Aagamic Shastras rendered by the priests of the respective Mandirs. HR&CE is only the administrator of the Mandir and have no right whatsoever to determine or alter the religious functions of the Mandir under their control.

However, to its credit, the HR&CE, has appropriated the right to loot Hindu Mandirs and its properties.

Who are the constituents of the group that went with Arumugaswamy to raise the ruckus inside the Kanakasabhai?

A contingent of E V Ramaswamy Naicker's Dravida Kazhagam Athiests, who I doubt have any idea of what Thevaram is. Indian Commies, whose stand as anti-Hindus (not the minorities or their religion) is well known. Human Rights activists, who fish in troubled waters for their 2 min fame under the arc-lights and escape when the minorities are proved to commit atrocities on the majority. Tamil Chauvinists, who had no idea that the Tamil Hymns are indeed rendered everyday by the Dikshitars from the Kanakasabhai and that anyone can render Tamil hymns in any part of the Mandir except the Garbha Griha and the Kanakasabhai. Linguistic chauvinist parties, who had never entered this Mandir in their lifetime and in all likelihood, will enter only to create disturbance of peace in a Hindu Mandir again, under the pretext of protecting Tamil language. Many of you may not be aware that the people who were with Arumugaswamy faltered innumerable times during their trial rendering of the Thevaram, when they entered the Kanakasabhai waving the copy of the illegal order of the HR&CE.

You can read more about this sad affair @

http://www.kanchiforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2258

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 02 Apr 2008, 20:05

jayachAramaraja,
Thanks for the link.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Apr 2008, 20:39

Militancy can never go with being a brahmin
b^Rihat manaH iti brAhMaNaH (One who has a big heart is a brahmin).
Universal tolerance (of sex, language, colour, creed or race) is symbolic of being a brahmin.
Lord Siva indeed symbolizes True Brahminhood!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 02 Apr 2008, 21:27

sastras enjoin â€“
janmana jayate sudrah
samskarad bhaved dvijah
veda-pathad bhaved vipro
brahma janatiti brahmanah

"By birth one is a sudra, by the purificatory process one becomes a dvija, by study of the Vedas one becomes a vipra, and one who knows Brahman is a brahmana."

http://www.gosai.com/dvaita/madhvacarya ... snava.html

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Apr 2008, 23:20

VGV
I know that quite well! But made this up to emphasize the 'ahimsaa vaada' in favour/and in defence of brahmins!

sanskritscholar · Post by **sanskritscholar** » 03 Apr 2008, 22:54

cmlover wrote:As king Vikramaditya saw kalidasa approachig him with 'tAlIpatram' clutched in his
hands he acted innocent and said:
King: kO atra bhavAN (who is there?)
Kalidasa: ahaM kALidAsaH (It is me Kalidasa)
King: kim vA paThasi (What are you reading?)
Kalidasa: kaTapayAdi sUtra AyuShman (It is katapayaadi sutra My Lord!)
Without batting an eye the king continued:
King: hastE kiM tE (What are they in your hands?)
Starting to get suspicious Kalidasa continued:
Kalidas: tAlI patraM (They are writing leaves)
Thinking that he had trapped Kalidasa the king continued
King: kA vA rEkhA (What are those writings ?)

I don't want to sound pedantic, but lEkhA fits better than rEkhA.

larayor bhedaM asti na vA? vikramAdtiyaH na cInadeshIyaH nApI japAnIyaH.

Kalidasa by now knew well that the king had followed him up and was aware of the
whole episode. He responded coolly :
Kalidasa: Eka dvi tri catura (one, two, three, four)
The King was taken aback. He wanted to see the scrolls and remarked
King: idaM akSharANi kaH khaH gaH ghaH iti (This is alphabet ka kha ga
gha)

imAni akSharANi athavA EtAni akSharANi . saMkhyA-virodham asti anyathA.

Smiling kalidasa added:
Kalidasa: AM AyuShman! EtAni sankhyA kaTapayAdi prakArENa likhitAni| vararuci
samyak jAnAti (Yes my Lord! These are numerals written as per kaTapayAdi
scheme. Vararuci knows them well.)

EtAni saMkhyAni ... vararuciH saMyag jAnAti.

alam anena.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Apr 2008, 03:18

larayor bhedaM asti na vA? vikramAdtiyaH na cInadeshIyaH nApI japAnIyaH.

d^RiDaM manyE viklamAdityaH cInajApAnipriyaH AsIt | nAtra saMshayaH |

bhO! yadA ahamasmi advaitin tEna sankhyA samyak na jAnAmi |

dhanyavAd | punarAgaccha ||

(Any comments on the kapinjala adhikaraNa nyAya referred in #64?)

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 04 Apr 2008, 11:49

Sorry for deviating from the current discussion. Can someone help me with obtaining the melakarta number for SUryakAntham and dhivyAmaNi. It seems that the sound of 'r' is igonred in SUryakAntham to obtain 17 (Sa - 7, Ya - 1) while the sound of 'iv' in dhivyAmaNi is required to arrive at 48 (Da - 8, Va - 4). Can someone please clarify the difference in these two?

Can someone also provide a list ragas that do not follow the kaTapaYAdi rule?

Thank you.

Karnaticfan · Post by **Karnaticfan** » 04 Apr 2008, 14:21

Yes, there are, in fact, three Melakartha Raags(current system):

1) RatnAn~gi
2) SooryakAntam
3) DivyamaNi

2nd alpha of above three rAgs are not having full alphas (oRTru ezhuthu in Tamil) and these have been omitted while considering kaTapayAdhi sankyA. (when we deal with all complete notes (swara) line up, why to deal with half alphas ...!)

In some books, it is written 21st MK as KeervAni. Only when it is made as 'KEERAVAANI' the system would be full-proof and justifying.

sanskritscholar · Post by **sanskritscholar** » 09 Apr 2008, 22:53

cmlover wrote:Thanks VGV
It is Ayodhya kaaNDaM Chapter 54 verse 28 (page 375 in the Gorakpur publication). The second reference is correct but the interpreetation is wrong!
ardha t^RitIya means three and a half and not two and a half yOjanas. Check
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ayodhya/s ... _frame.htm

On second thought the explanation appears farfetched and contrived to me. In that case all plural references in Ramayana will have to be tripled I doubt Valmiki meant it so!

It is a clever interpretation, but indeed contrived. In any case, for a pada to be interpreted as being an ekasheshha dvandva samAsa, it should be in dual or plural number, e.g. pitarau = mAtA + pitA, as in jagataH pitarau vande. The ardha t^RitIya reference in chapter 92 meets this criterion (yojaneshu is plural saptamI), but dasha krosha in chapter 54 does not. The word kroshe is singular saptamI, so the kapinjala rule will not apply.

Perhaps the Chitrakuta mountain in Valmiki's Ramayana is a different one, closer to Prayag than what is called Chitrakut today. Or maybe the rivers have changed course enough over time to make a difference!

The way the kapinjala nyAya works is that when a number is unspecified, a plural word indicates the number three. So "kapinjalAn" means three kapinjala birds, not four or ten or hundred. The URL you quoted about dharmashAstra rules is mistaken in saying "not one, not two". There would not even be a doubt about the numbers one or two, because the word kapinjAlAn itself indicates more than two. This rule is invoked in the arthashAstra and its commentaries too.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 09 Apr 2008, 23:30

Whatever be the actual distance between prayAga and citrakUTa, the statements of sage bharadvAja to rAma and bharata should have the same meaning (notwithstanding the change in wordings).

Without applying the nyAya, the distance as per Chapter 54 is 10 krOsa; the distance as per Chapter 92 is 2 and a half yOjana.

Taking 1 yOjana = 4 krOSa, without applying the nyAya both versions give the same value. Therefore, either the nyAya is to be applied in both cases or not at all. Applying in one case and not in another will result in difference.

How do we reconcile this?

PS : I have checked the version of Valmiki Ramayana published by MLJ Press Mylapore. There is no difference in the wordings.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Apr 2008, 01:28

Dear SS
I agree with you totally on the grammatical issues in the application of the kapinjala nyAya. Since as VGV points out it is not discussed in other critical editions of Valmiki RamayaNa we could at best consider the inadequate fit as serendipity. Further as you state the curreent citrakUTa maybe different from those times. For example Kalidasa refers to citrakUTa as a forest (Raghuvamsa 12.15).
Could you provide the reference for the application of the nyAya in the artha sAstra ?
Thanks!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 10 Apr 2008, 19:28

serendipity

- An aside - This word is derived from 'svarNa dvIpa'

Serendip (also Serendib) is the old Persian name for Sri Lanka.

The word 'serendipity' has been voted as one of the ten English words that were hardest to translate in June 2004 by a British translation company. However, due to its sociological use, the word has been imported into many other languages (Portuguese serendipicidade or serendipidade; French sÃ©rendipicitÃ© or sÃ©rendipitÃ© but also heureux hasard, "fortunate chance"; Spanish serendipia; Italian serendipitÃ ; Dutch serendipiteit; German SerendipitÃ¤t; Swedish, Danish and Norwegian serendipitet; Romanian serendipitate).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serendipity

Sri tyAgarAja uses 'bangAru lanka' - (bangAru - gold) in his kriti 'baDalika tIra - rItigauLa

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Apr 2008, 19:53

Interesting VGV!
You may add to that the much more ancient kAkatALIya nyAya

This is only an illustration of what is called Kaka Thali Nyayam in Sanskrit
(Law of Coincidence) which is that in the case where the crow sits upon a
palmyra fruit which is so ripe as about to fall down and the fruit falls down, the
people ascribe the falling of the fruit to the [crow].
Kakataliya nyaya, literally the law of the crow and the palmyra palm, is a common
parable of pure chance in classical Sanskrit literature and philosophy.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Apr 2008, 21:31

VGV
svarNa dvIpa (golden isle) --> serendip (land of opportunity for British) -> sva raNa dvIpa(mutual fighting isle)

sanskritscholar · Post by **sanskritscholar** » 10 Apr 2008, 22:01

vgvindan wrote:Whatever be the actual distance between prayAga and citrakUTa, the statements of sage bharadvAja to rAma and bharata should have the same meaning (notwithstanding the change in wordings).

Without applying the nyAya, the distance as per Chapter 54 is 10 krOsa; the distance as per Chapter 92 is 2 and a half yOjana.

Taking 1 yOjana = 4 krOSa, without applying the nyAya both versions give the same value. Therefore, either the nyAya is to be applied in both cases or not at all. Applying in one case and not in another will result in difference.

Agreed. I think one should not apply the kapinjala nyAya in either case.

In arthashAstram (I am recalling from memory here), kauTilya says that merchants suspected of fraud should be detained for ghaTika-s and questioned. A commentator interprets this as three ghaTika-s, by applying the kapinjala nyAya. There is a book out there on economic and political life under the Maurya dynasty, which refers to this.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 10 Apr 2008, 22:25

sva raNa dvIpa(mutual fighting isle)

A curse was pronounced by Sita on this island long back -

"..Even as I stand weeping thus, more so would be heard in every house wails of the ogresses whose lords would have been slain : there is no doubt (about it); ... with its streets obscured by the smoke of funeral piles and graced with wreaths of vultures, Lanka will at no distant date look like a crematorium. ... I shall assuredly hear before long the cry (of distress) of ogre maids stricken with sorrow and weeping in every dwelling house...."

Sundara Kanda, Chapter 26.

Now it is Vasanta Navaratri, an auspicious time for Parayana of Sundara Kanda. The stark picture painted by Sita cannot but stand before one's eyes'.

So cursed draupadi also and what was left of 18 akshauNi sEna were just a handful.

During Iron Curtain days there was a word coined - MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction thru nuclear bombs. It is indeed a wonder that we are still surviving. That MAD is applicable to that island nation today.

May Sita revisit her curse!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Apr 2008, 22:50

It is indeed poignant!
I also recall 'kaNNagi's Curse' on TN at times

leela madhav · Post by **leela madhav** » 29 May 2008, 14:17

Dear Members
I am a new member to this organisation, and found the present discussion on Vararuchi, Katapaya etc while browsing, and I would like to share some of my findings with this august group on this subject, on astroloical lines where the katapaya notation is frequently used particularly in Jaimini school of thought, However, the present content of this topic is restricted in knowing the intrinsic meaning of Lord Rama etc rather than astrological
Today, we will see the greatness of "Katapaya" system, whose knowledge is a must
to understand many secrets disclosed by Maharshi Jaimini through his Upadesa
Sutras

Starting from A to Ah are treated as 0, while remaining letters are assigned
numbers as shown in the table above
Let us call group A to Ah as zero group and other letters as non-zero group
Again, any letter can be a combination of two or more letters which are
Dwi-twakahsara or Samyukta-akshara respectively, and the rule in such case is,

1. if the last letter pronounced belongs to a zero group, then ignore it and
take its precedent, until a alphabet of non-zero group arrives
2. After writing so, for a word with many alphabets, take the number obtained,
and call this as base number (B)

3. Now reverse the base number which is called Katapaya number (K)

4. Now divide this Katapaya number with a some arbitrary constant called Root
number (R)

5. The remainder obtained after division, is called Katapaya Value (KV)
6. If the remainder obtained is zero, then KV is R itself

7. The K obtained is tested with different arbitrary constants R which
represent some specific feature or quality connected to the "word" in question,
and if such test gives the desired results, then the word is called "Dynamic
Katapaya Padam (DKP)" else it is a "Static Katapaya Padam(SKP)"
I will demonstrate with a simple example:
Take word "Rama"
Ra=2, Ma=5,
Base number B= 25
by reversing it we have Katapaya number K = 52

Now comes the situation of arbitrary number or constant called Root number R
What is this constant?
It is a number giving the total number of objects in a class or group
For example, if we take Rasi chakra or zodiac, the number of signs is 12, hence
class is Rasi and constant is 12

To know the birth rasi of Lord Rama

So, if we are interested to know what is the rasi represented by word RAMA, then
we have to divided K with R
here K=52, and R=12
Then the remainder obtained is 4 which is KV, which says that the 4th sign of
zodiac which starts from Aries is Cancer,

To know the Guna traya of Lord Rama

Similarly, if we are interested in what is the guna of Rama, then we have three
gunas viz., satwa, rajas and tamas(remember order of objects is very important
just like the sequence of signs in zodiac as in the earlier example), therefore
for class Guna, the root number R=3
Therefore, if we divide again K with R, the remainder will be 1, which
represents Satwa guna

To know the Arshad varga of Lord Rama

Again, if we are interested to know among which Arshad-varga i.e., Kama(1),
Krodha(2), Lobha(3), Moha(4), Madha(5) and Maatasrya(6) ,
then, Class is Arshad-varga and Root number R is 6
So, when 52 divided by 6, remainder KV = 4, represent Moha (Pumsah Mohana Rupah
is the quality given to Lord Rama during Sita Swayamvaram) ,
Therefore, Rama represents Moha arshad varga

To know the Dig-varga of Lord Rama

Again, if we are interested where Rama is born, i.e., in which direction, then
the class Dik contains 4 directions starting from East (1) to North (4)
so, if we divide 52 with 4, the remainder is zero or 4, hence, Rama is born in
North i.e., Ayodhya

To know the Panch-bhuta of Lord Rama

Again, if we are interested among which panch bhutas do Rama fall,
then Class Pancha Bhuta contains 5 objects which are 1 for Prithivi, 2 Apa, 3
Teja, 4 Vayu and 5Akash (in that order)
then, if we divide 52 with 5, remainder is 2 which says that Rama belongs to
Water (Neer + Ayana = Narayana) and he is the first human being who constructed
Rama sethu

To know chaturvida-purushar tha of Lord Rama
Again, if we are interested in knowing among which Purusharthas does Rama fall,
then the class named Purushartha contains 4 objects viz., Dharma(1), Artha (2),
Kama(3) and Moksha(4) (in that order)
then 52 divided by 4, KV=0 or 4 i.e., Moksha, hence Rama represents Moksha

Shad gunatamakam Sri Ramam
Jaya Jaya Ram, Janaki Ram

In this way the six qualities of Lord Rama are established, and since there
exists only one word or padam which contains the power of represent dynamic
qualities or multi faceted truth values in it, it is called "Arudha Padam"
This is the exact definition of Arudha by Jaimini

To know to which Vi-dik (eight directions) Lord Rama marched for Vicotry

Here the class is Vi-dik with 8 number of objects. However, there is a slight difference between Dik and Vi-dik. Dik is one of the main directions viz., East, South, West and North which are 4 in number, whereas Vi-Dik is meeting of any two adjacent Diks and they start from North-East, and end at North-West.

These 4 main directions i.e., Dik and 8 directions i.e., Vi-dik are termed as Chaturh(four) + Asra (angle) = Chaturasra which is a quality of planet KUJA - Senani
This Chaturasra forms an important physical entity called Space which is analysed in Sthana bala, particularly Saptavargaja Bala

However, for a king(on earth) to be called an emperor (Cakravarti) he is supposed to conquer all the 8 directions called Ashta-Dik Palakas.

Hence, in our class called Ashta-dik, we have objects as 8 and they start with 1 Ishanya (N/E), 2 Praak or Purva (E), 3 Agneya (S/W), 4 Yama or Dakshina (S), 5 Nriti(S/W), 6 Varun or Paschim(W), 7 Vayu (N/W) and 8 Kubera or Uttara (N).

Base number (B) for Lord Rama = 25
Katapaya number (K) = 52
Root number of Ashta-dik = 8

Hence by dividing 52 by 8, remainder is 4 which is Yama or South

This means, Rama who born in North marched to South(Yama) for establishing Dharma by killing Ravana

This marching of Lord Rama (who is descendant of Surya - Surya Vamsi) from North to South, just like movement of Sun from Uttarayana to Dakshinayana, is called Rama + Ayana = Path of Rama or Tao of Rama = Ramayana

Kshatriya's quality is to conquer mrutyu which resides in South or Yama sthana
In this way, we can enjoy the Katapaya principles which originated from Lord Brahma as stated in Srimad Bhagavatam

Here completes our obeisance to Lord Rama with the help of Katapaya
------------------------------------
I will further demonstrate the power of Katapaya system

After making obeisance to Ishta devata (here Lord Rama), it is customary to know Guru who gives Upadesa

For this we require some basic understanding of Time in astrological terms

As earth rotates from west to east, when we face East, we will see a boundary where sky and earth meet which is called Horizon or Kshitija

Imagine, Aries rises presently, after 2 hours, the next sign to Aries i.e., Taurus rises. This means, if we accept Aries as present, Taurus is future, and the sign above Aries i.e., Pisces which has already raised some 2 hrs back is treated as past.

Once again,
Aries is present
Taurus is immediate future
Pisces is immediate past

These signs when represented numerically will be 1, 2 and 12 respectively.

Similarly, 5th sign Leo and 9th Sagittarius represent distant future and distant past.

Hence,
we have two components of Time
1. Immediate or short which are 1, 2 and 12
2. Distant or long which are 1, 5 and 9
From this stanza, we know how Vid or Jnana descended through Paramapara

Vede Bhyascha samuddhrutya Brahmaapro vaacha vistrutam |
Garga stasmaadidam praaha mayaa tasmaadyatha tathaa |
Taduktam tava Maitreya saastram aadyantam Eva hi ||

Purport: Veda or Jnana has transcended from Lord Brahma to Maharshi Garga, who later passed it to me (Parasara) and it was further passed to Maitreya

Leaving Lord Brahma who is above this world, if we consider the parampara of Garga ---> Parasara ----> Maitreya, we can prove this relationship by taking Katapaya numbers (K) for the words:
1. Garga = 33
2. Parasara = 2521
3. Maitreya = 125
dividing these Ks with 12 in order to know their signs, we have
1. Garga = 9 i.e., Dhanus - moola trikona sign of Guru
2. Parasara = 1 i.e., Mesha which is 5th from Garga i.e., distant future
3. Maitreya = 5 i.e., Simha which is 5th from Parasara i.e., distant future
In this way, we can see that these three sages come into Time-Trine of Fire

Similarly, we can further enjoy with general pair of words like Guru and Sishya (pair), Rshi and Acharya, Satya and Mihira
1. Guru = 23 i.e., Aquarius
2. Sishya = 15 i.e., Gemini
which obey distant future rule, and says that Sishya is a pupil of a preceptor called Guru
1. Rshi = 60 i.e., Pisces
2. Acharya = 160 i.e., Cancer
which again obey distant future rule, and says that Acharya is a follower of a school or thought of a Rshi
1. Satya = 17 i.e., Leo
2. Mihira = 285 i.e., Sagittarius
which again obey distant future rule, and says that Mihira (Varaha is the honor given to the original name Mihira) is a distant future sishya of Satyaacharya (this is very much evident in Brihatjaataka)

I will continue with some Upadesa Sutras in my further postings
Till then, keep busy with doing some home work with words like:

Pairs- Sruti, Smrti
Jaimini,
Maya, Yama
Tishya(name of the star Pushyami in Cancer), Sravassu (name of the star Sravana in Capricorn),

Jairadhe

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 30 May 2008, 04:44

leela madhav,
The greatness of Katapa system is very nicely explained. Though mind breaking yet quite intersting. Good luck. Keep giving exercises more.
Thanjavooran

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 30 May 2008, 09:46

thanjavooran,
It is one thing to devise a scheme in order to make remembering things easier; it is quite another thing to apply the same device to non-existing situations. Human ingenuity working at its best - or worst?
There is a Tamil usage - 'veLuttadellAm pAlalla' - milk is white - but not all that is white is milk.

leela madhav · Post by **leela madhav** » 07 Aug 2008, 16:49

Dear members
I just checked this forum to find any interesting contributions regarding Katapaya system. But there seems to be no one interested and moreover, there are members who do not have habit of straight talk thereby displaying crystal clear thinking rather than talk milk and white etc. It is appreciated if these rules applied rather than sitting and talking. I am extending another quality of Lord Rama. This is called six policies of an emperor as rightly mentioned by Kautilya in his Artha Sastra. The king should possess or observe these following six qualities (Shadgunyam)before he wages war:
1) Sandhi
2) Vigraha
3) Aasana
4) Yana
5) Sansraya
6) Dvadhibhava
Please refer Kautilya for explanation of these terms
Now coming to Katapaya applied to Rama, 52 divided by 6 will give 4 remainder meaning Yana which is what exactly Lord Rama did
I expected someone who has the ability to enjoy both Milk and appreciate white (both are good qualities) and in the state of ecstasy (sama veda philosophy), the souls which will be pure and when combine to form a milky ocean which is exactly the description of Pala Kadali(milky ocean) of Vaikuntam. There, there is no discrimination between Milk and white. The system of Katapaya descended from Brahma who is illuminated soul but not from mere persons who can only discriminate milk and white and waste their karma and do not possess to establish the quality explained above as another example. They are shame to our civilization and philosophy
Jairadhe