Another kaTapaYAdi puzzle resolved!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 15 Feb 2008, 23:11

Some time ago VGV posted the excellent explanation for Rama naamam accounting for 1000 names of the Lord. See
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=68624#p68624

I was quite impressed and was looking for other applications. Most of us know that vyasa's Mahabharatam as well all the 18 puranas start with the verse:

nArAyaNaM namask^Ritya naraM caiva narOttamaM |
dEvIM sarasvatIM vyAsaM tatO jayaM udIrayEt ||

In all these contexts the vyAkhyAkAra interpret 'jayaM' as the number 18. I have always wondered about it. Now if we apply the kaTapayAdi scheme:
ja =8 and ya =1 which becomes jaya = 81, but we invert it which becomes precisely 18.

Apparently our vedic sages were deeply into jyotiSha and hence used it in nomenclature more freely than we imagine which might unlock a number of unknown puzzles yet. (at least which I was not aware of !)

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 17 Feb 2008, 21:54

cmlover wrote:Some time ago VGV posted the excellent explanation for Rama naamam accounting for 1000 names of the Lord. See
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=68624#p68624

I was quite impressed and was looking for other applications. Most of us know that vyasa's Mahabharatam as well all the 18 puranas start with the verse:

nArAyaNaM namask^Ritya naraM caiva narOttamaM |
dEvIM sarasvatIM vyAsaM tatO jayaM udIrayEt ||

In all these contexts the vyAkhyAkAra interpret 'jayaM' as the number 18. I have always wondered about it. Now if we apply the kaTapayAdi scheme:
ja =8 and ya =1 which becomes jaya = 81, but we invert it which becomes precisely 18.

Apparently our vedic sages were deeply into jyotiSha and hence used it in nomenclature more freely than we imagine which might unlock a number of unknown puzzles yet. (at least which I was not aware of !)

H.H.Mahaperiyava of Kanchi had written about Katapayadi scheme.The rule in inverting the syllable is called Shaelajeena kushottaram(from my memory)

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 17 Feb 2008, 22:07

That is a very interesting observation. Unlike sri VGV's interpretation that involves multiplication of 5and 2 and then cubing of 10 in order to arrive at 1000 rAma nAmAs, your interpretation is precisely according to the kaTapyAdi scheme. But it IS questionable, if the scheme was in vogue at such early times !

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 17 Feb 2008, 22:11

Thanks baboosh
Suggests 'shailaja kushOttara nyAya' (the habittual style of holding the darbha) though I am unable to track it down exactly!
(maybe related to the 'reverse Polish' notations! Or the LIFO technique!)

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 18 Feb 2008, 21:21

cmlover wrote:Thanks baboosh
Suggests 'shailaja kushOttara nyAya' (the habittual style of holding the darbha) though I am unable to track it down exactly!
(maybe related to the 'reverse Polish' notations! Or the LIFO technique!)

All raga names have had a prefix to know the melakarta order like Dheerasankarabaranam,Mechakalyani only by reversing we get the exact mela number.

karthik76 · Post by **karthik76** » 07 Mar 2008, 02:13

Are any books or online material available on the kaTapayAdi scheme of encoding?

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 07 Mar 2008, 11:51

srkris has this to say:

Wish to state here that the katapaya-Adi scheme is not used just in music, it came to be used in music also but was not invented therefor.

More on the same:

http://srath.com/numerology/katapayadi.htm
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/05/28/k â€¦ algorithm/
http://members.tripod.com/~RKSanka/music/katapaya.html
http://www.namboothiri.com/articles/katapayaadi.htm

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 07 Mar 2008, 21:30

karthik76 wrote:Are any books or online material available on the kaTapayAdi scheme of encoding?

Iam quoting from what I read in the discourses of H.H.Kanchi Mahasvamigal.
The basic codification is from the rules
Kaadhi nava,then Taadi nava,Paadi Pancha and Yaadi ashtav.For the devanagiri scipt the numbering is assigned as written and the given word or compound is deciphered and revrsed which goes under the rule Shailajinakusottara by revesing the order of thhe derived numbers.For instance Hanumath Todi has the prefix Hanu which falls under Yaadi ashtav and its number is 8 and Nuu is dheerga consonant which is assigned zero value as a rule.Then it gives 80 which when reversed becomes 08

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 07 Mar 2008, 22:16

Katapayadi is indeed of JyotiShik origin. There is mention of it in Jaimini Sutra. Most probably the Aryans as they entered India brought along with them the Sumerian scripting practice (to which languages like Arabic, Hebrew etc belong). These writings are from Right to left. Hence they would write a number like 18 as '81' in their script but read it as 18.

One may observe that the writing in arabic calligraphic script for 'Allah' is actually the devanagari symbol for 'OM' (pranavam) written in reverse and slanted!

tmohan · Post by **tmohan** » 10 Mar 2008, 13:36

H.H. Chandrasekarendra Saraswati ,Maha Periyaval of Kanchi Mutt amongst other evidences also uses this kaTapayAdi sankhya to determine the age of Adi Sankara. He uses the word " caracara " to denote the year 2626 in the kali era ( equivalent to B.C 476 ) as the year of Sankara's demise at the age of 32 ( indiactyed by the worg phala meaning fruit) in the raktAkShi year. Thus the age of Adi Sankara is between 508 to 476 B.C
Anyway his name Sankar is indicative of 2nd month, 1st pakSha and 5th day ( Vaisaka month shulkla pakSha pancami is shankara jayanti).The acharya says that naming according to this system is even today existing in some parts of Kerala

This numbering system not only uses the letters to denote the numbers but also some words, like in the meLakarta cakrAs- for e.g gaja( elephant) or nAga(snake) denote the number 8, ratna to denote the number 9 and so on. I wonder how many more important dates are hidden in our literature like this!!!

Mohan

vasya10 · Post by **vasya10** » 11 Mar 2008, 00:02

Usage of kaTapayAdi is in mathematics:

gOpIbhAgyamadhuvrAta sRungiSodadhisandhiga | khalajIvita khAtAva galahAlarasandhara ||

While being a praise on krishna and shiva at the same time, this sloka's katapayadi equivalent also yields an all important mathematical number!

Besides that, short phrases also were used for memorizing numbers. For eg..

kevalai: saptakam gunyAt | (Literally = By 'kevala' seventh part may be calculated). In this kevalai: = 143, which are the first 3 nos of irrational number 1/7.

But katapayadi is not the only scheme used by our ancestors. There have been other schemes too. Aryabhatta uses a different one. A common scheme is to use chandra, netra etc (just like its used for groups of melakarta).

sanskritscholar · Post by **sanskritscholar** » 19 Mar 2008, 07:19

Thanks baboosh
Suggests 'shailaja kushOttara nyAya' (the habittual style of holding the darbha) though I am unable to track it down exactly!

cmlover, you are just winging it, aren't you? "the habittual style of holding the darbha" makes absolutely no sense and you have coined your own term "shailaja kushottara". You seem secure in the feeling that nobody is going to question you. Half-knowledge is dangerous.

The rule of reversing the order in the katapayadi scheme is called chailAjina kushottara nyAya. The reference is to the Bhagavad Gita, verse 11 in chapter 6.

chaila means cloth, ajina means animal skin (deer/tiger skin are typically meant) and kusha is grass. The Gita verse puts it in this order, but of course, as everybody ought to know, you have to reverse the order when sitting down for dhyAnam. You first lay down the grass (kusha), then the skin (ajina), cover the skin with a piece of cloth (chaila) and then sit on top for meditation.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Mar 2008, 10:01

Just wait Mr
I have no intention of misleading since I was not aware of the posited nyaaya in the first place. I simply interpreted it from word meaning (shailaja as the derivative of shIla janya (custom-born)). I tended to interpret it as holding the darbha always in the right even if it is picked up by the left hand. The error was due to the wrong spelling of the words

Thank you for the correction and the reference. But I have to confess it is not a 'nyaaya' commonly referred to and may not have any referent application to the KaTapayAdi reversal process.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 19 Mar 2008, 19:49

You seem secure in the feeling that nobody is going to question you

kaTradu kaimmaN aLavu kallAdadu ulagaLavu - if what one has learnt is equivalent to a hand-ful of earth, what one is yet to learn is of the size of Earth itself - Stated to be the wordings of Sarasvati - Goddess of Speech.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Mar 2008, 20:55

ag~naH sukhamArAdhyaH sukhataramArAdhyatE vishEShag~naH |
g~nAnalavadurvidagdhaM bramhA'pi naraM na ra~njayati ||
(perhaps our great 'sanskrit scholar' would deign to provide the interpretation and comment

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 19 Mar 2008, 21:31

perhaps our great 'sanskrit scholar' would deign to provide the interpretation and comment

No need to be sarcastic. He pointed out the error in your post which you had to admit and it would be nice if you accept it gracefully.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 19 Mar 2008, 21:52

I did! I only interpreted exactly what baboosh posted never claiming any knowledge in that process. But my friend is accusing me of arrogating a knowledge which did not exist. He presently appeared here solely with the purpose of 'showing off''. I do appreciate since it was quite educational. I am only trying to win him over here using this bait

He appears to be well-read and knowledgeable and it will be nice to have him stay at this Forum!

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 19 Mar 2008, 22:15

Sorry CML if have offended you

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Mar 2008, 23:15

schOlar post schOlar aRiyum (a la pAmbin kAl)! kErala vADai (hint, flavor) in agriNai for aRivAr

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Mar 2008, 00:12

Abslutely not.! We are all 'students' here. As we share our knowledge, scholarship and experiences we are all enriched. There is no room for Ego! After all our knowledge stems from our inner self which by the mahAvAkya 'ahaM brahmOsmi' (I am the ultimate Brahman) unifies us all, whence where is the room for 'vidyA garvaM' ?

arasi

since the snake does not have legs (kAl) (some do have rudimentary projections) I believe this saying has a deeper meaning. I think 'kAl' in this context means 'iDaM' (place of residence). In fact the snake tracks other snakes using smell (phermones?). Of course I am winging it! Too bad we do not have Sub our expert biologist here

sanskritscholar · Post by **sanskritscholar** » 20 Mar 2008, 04:47

I simply interpreted it from word meaning (shailaja as the derivative of shIla janya (custom-born)).

That is precisely why I said your meaning was absolutely wrong. If you want to add the suffix -ja to shIla, you simply add it and you get shIlaja. You should not modify the root word with a guNa-vR^iddhi operation. This is basic grammar here.

e.g. jalaja, pavanaja, avanijA, aNDaja ... ..., not jAlaja, pAvanaja, Avanija, ANDaja ... ...

shailaja can only mean shaila + ja, which would be stone-born, not custom-born.

Btw, chailAjinakushottara nyAya for kaTapayAdi scheme as quoted from Kanchi Mahaperiyavar is right on, because reversing the order is exactly what is done. His Holiness must have been referring to Sankaracharya's commentary on the Gita, because the commentary does say that the order of chaila ,ajina and kusha is to be reversed as compared to the krama given in the verse.

As for your bait, oh boy, what can I say... I ain't biting. Instead, I'm going to chill with something better than Valium.

Have a good day!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Mar 2008, 06:36

Dear Sanskritscholar:
I am very pleased you decided to come back. Thank you! I hope we can continue the dialogue from a 'scholar' to a 'student'! (no sarcasm but only out of sincerity since I wish to learn!).
First of all you are absoluutely right in that 'ja' (born from) is simply compounded and there is no guNa. shIlaja is correct for 'custom-born' as you have eloquently establiished. Now observe the following:
shIla + aN = shaila (relating to custom) which is a legitimate taddhita compound.
Hence shaila + ja = shailaja (born of custom) is equally valid. Of course independantly it would mean 'born of rock' since shaila also means rock but words having such anomalous multiple meanings are not uncommon in sanskrit (which is its inner beauty).

Now let us discuss the substantive issue: First don't take this to be in any way disrespectful of AchArya whose erudition is unbounded. The verse from Gita is:

sucau dEshE pratiShThApya sthiramAsamAtmanaH |
nAtyucchRitaM nAtinIcaM cailajinakushOttaraM ||

The crucial part is cailajinakushOttaraM = cailaM ca ajinam ca kushAH ca uttaraM yasmin tat (cloth, and (deer) skin, and grass and in succession in which that).
Now where does it say in the reverse (viparIta)order? The word 'uttara' has several meanings but never means 'reverse'. The logical meaning is 'in that following order'. if darbha does come at the top then it is fine since 'darbhAsanam' is indeed holy. Of course Sankara glosses it as 'pAThakramAt viparItaH...'. On the other hand Ramanuja is silent on this issue. By custom (shailaja according to me and shIlaja for you

we do follow the order postulated by AcArya. A casual reader of gIta will tend to take the litteral interpretation!
Spread the cloth to keep off the insects, seal it with ths deer skin to insulate for warmth and then sit on the seat made of the holy darbha!

At any rate it is preposterous to claim that 'kaTapayAdi' scheme evolved out of this practice. Let us have your scholarly view (no sarcasm again).

I am sorry I recommended valium in haste (again shIlaja )
Make it into aspirin 80mg every day and it may save your life !

I do fervently hope to see you more often here helping out with Sanskrit lyrics as well as philosophiical issues. You may find CM interesting, entertaining and relaxing and educational too if you are a novice!

GOOD NIGHT!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Mar 2008, 06:44

By the by did you check using kaTapayAdi number coding scheme to see that 'Om namashivAya' codes as 1000!

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 20 Mar 2008, 11:45

CML,
From whatever little I know of karmas, dharbha - as Asana - is used for purification. Therefore, it would come at the bottom only - cloth coming on the top - so that meditation is not disturbed due to bodily discomforts.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Mar 2008, 21:11

Thanks VGV
I agree since that is the standard practice. But cloth is always considered polluted unless it has been washed fresh and dried whereas darbha is always (sarvAvasthAM gatObhi vA) holy and sacred. Oberve we always utter darbhEShvAsinaH (sitting on the blades of grass) before any holy karmas.
I came across the following from sadagOpan:
http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/srirang ... 00053.html
and I quote:

The Lord demonstrates that for penance too, the ideal posture is to sit. This
can be found at BadarikAshramam, where He sits in eternal contemplation,
apparently fulfilling the criteria He Himself laid down for the performance of
Yoga-

"Suchou dEsE prathisthApya stthiram Asanam Atmana:

nAti ucchritam nAti neecham sailAjina kusOttaram"

The seat chosen for Yoga or tapas should be neither too high nor too low,
should be stable and comfortable and spread with holy darbha grass or the
purifying skin of a deer, and the Asana should be in clean and spiritually
uplifting environs, all of which are conducive for contemplation. This is what
Sri BadarInArAyana's posture tells those of us who are inclined towards
spiritual sAdhana.

Obviously he has misquoted 'saila' for 'caila'. it is interesting to note that he purports to interpret as: caila vA ajina vA kushOttaraM ( cloth or deer skin over the kusha grass) which makes sense grammatically. Literally speaking I assume Lord is speaking about one or the other by using the comparative 'uttara' instead of the superlative 'uttama' (since three objects are involved (pending confirmation by the sanskritscholar

The darbha is a must for all sacred activities (meditations) as we always symbolically place a couple of darbha grass before commencing any sacred procedures. The deer skin (or at times wooden plank (with of course the bhutashuddhi)) is always considered better than cloth (since it may be polluted). darbha is considered ideal. I guess there is a prohibition of sitting on plain ground during meditation since the energy acquired will be drained (earthed ?) off!

Incidentally I read elsewhere that the kaTapayAdi (numerical coding and not the reversal) is referred to by Vararuci! It may not be as old as the vedas probably.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 20 Mar 2008, 21:47

The version of Gita I have, published by Advaita Ashrama (Calcutta) (Translation by Swami Swarupananda, mentions 'cailAjina kuSOttaram';

the meaning derived for 'uttaram' is 'arranged in consecution' and the explanation given is 'kuSa grass arranged on the ground; above that, a tiger or a deer skin, covered by a cloth'.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 20 Mar 2008, 23:30

Swami swarupananda translates as:
'cailAjinakuSOttaram' = a cloth, a skin, and Kusha-grass, arranged in consecution
No reference to reversal since it is not in the verse.
What you have posted also is in the parenthetic explanation.
Zaehner translates as: bestrewn with cloth or hide or grass as I have suggested....

vasya10 · Post by **vasya10** » 21 Mar 2008, 01:41

I read somewhere that the rule for reading numbers backwards is 'ankAnAm vAmato gati:'. Dont remeber where I read it.

Isnt it also a general practice to read numbers from right to left in sanskrit. For eg 125 will "properly" be read as panchavimSati adhika Satam, instead of Sata pancha vimsati.

Though its not apples to apples comparison, read numbers backwards seems to be a natural.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Mar 2008, 01:58

vasya
you got a point here. The way we state numbers in sanskrit is indeed the reverse of what is said by the westerners or even dravidians (I mean Tamils)!
I have not heard that sUtra before!

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 21 Mar 2008, 02:00

vasya10 wrote:I read somewhere that the rule for reading numbers backwards is 'ankAnAm vAmato gati:'. Dont remeber where I read it.

.

That's how I always known that with respect to kaTapayAdi.

-Ramakriya

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 21 Mar 2008, 03:03

ankAnAm vAmato gati

Can someone provide a word by word meaning of this? Thank you.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 21 Mar 2008, 03:09

The movement (gati) of numbers (ankAnAm) is from the left (vAmato)?

vasya10 · Post by **vasya10** » 21 Mar 2008, 03:28

Literally:

ankAnAm (of the numbers); vAmatah (from the left) gati (is the going)

so, ankAnam gati (is) vAmatah .

I have always had difficulty in reading numbers in sanskrit, the english-way. Until I understood the rule behind how to read.

It is indeed natural (and easier) to read number "backwards". Suppose there is a large number like 21983717621, to read in English way, one has to first mentally parse thru the numbers *from the right* and make billion/million/thousand points and then read it out *from the left*. We are used to doing this from LKG, so it sounds easy. But reading backwards (as in sanskrit), I just have to increase powers of 10 for every number and throw an adhika, uttara , ca etc in between. And since every power of 10 has an equivalent short-name in sanskrit, like ayuta/laksha/koti/padma/nila/shanka etc. almost all the way upto 10^62, it just gets easier.

vasya10 · Post by **vasya10** » 21 Mar 2008, 03:46

cmlover wrote:By the by did you check using kaTapayAdi number coding scheme to see that 'Om namashivAya' codes as 1000!

I dont think I am right, but I will take a blind stab:

om namaSivaya.

om can be omitted (coz its a vowel + half consonant).

namaSivaya = 0 5 5 4 1 = 0 (5*5*4*1) = 0001

ankAnAm vamato gati, makes it 1000.

sanskritscholar · Post by **sanskritscholar** » 21 Mar 2008, 03:47

shIla + aN = shaila (relating to custom) which is a legitimate taddhita compound.
Hence shaila + ja = shailaja (born of custom) is equally valid. Of course independantly it would mean 'born of rock' since shaila also means rock but words having such anomalous multiple meanings are not uncommon in sanskrit (which is its inner beauty).

Actually, once you make the taddhita form shaila from shIla, then adding the suffix ja becomes unnecessary! In your derivation, shailaja = born of that which is related to custom, not "born of custom".

Anyway, the whole thing is moot, because all this has nothing to do with shIla or shaila. The matter is simply that Kanchi Mahaperiyavar quoted a particular nyAya with respect to the kaTapayAdi scheme and I pointed out the correct reference behind it. Hence, no need to conjecture with shIla and its derivative words.

kaTapayAdi scheme is fairly new, as far as Indian traditions are concerned and it is also largely south Indian in usage. It certainly is not as old as the vedas. It is merely a mnemonic scheme used for clever naming of things. As you mentioned, it is usually credited to Vararuchi. Incidentally, Vararuchi is supposed to have been from Kerala.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 21 Mar 2008, 04:08

sanskritscholar wrote:I pointed out the correct reference behind it. Hence, no need to conjecture with shIla and its derivative words.

kaTapayAdi scheme is fairly new, as far as Indian traditions are concerned and it is also largely south Indian in usage. It certainly is not as old as the vedas. It is merely a mnemonic scheme used for clever naming of things. As you mentioned, it is usually credited to Vararuchi. Incidentally, Vararuchi is supposed to have been from Kerala.

Isn't it used in AryabhatIya as well? Remember reading something like that, but not 100% sure

-Ramakriya

vasya10 · Post by **vasya10** » 21 Mar 2008, 04:15

Vararuchi - is it the same Vararuchi, of the Grammar Trinity (panini, patanjali, vararuchi) ?

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Mar 2008, 04:38

vasya
you are on track! It works out for shiva the way it does for rAma. Maybe serendipity or the way the names were chosen for our deities!

dear SS
I agree about the redundancy (but as much as Paninian sUtras are concise, so also are superfluity in sanskrit expressions (which is a beauty!). Let us leave it at that.

Vararuci was at the court of Vikramaditya and his being a Keralite as questionable as Bhasa being a Keralite!
Definitely kaTapayAdi is of jyOtiShik origin and it was used by Kerala namboodiris in calculations and date fixings. I found the ingenious use in fixing the date-fixing of nArAyaNeeyam. But the connection to Mahabharatam is flimsy. As I understand the popular first shlOka that I had quoted is found only in mahabharta from northern editions and not in any from the south. It is surmised that they may have been added after the 15th century.

In astrology there are letters associated with the stars which are supposed to be used in forming the names. They do not follow kaTapayAdi scheme however. I don't think it was followed even in ancient times. For example VashiShTa did not use it in forming the name of rAma....

Of interest is the claim that in mela ragas context the term raga translates as 23 which by the kaTapayadi scheme becomes 32 which is precisely the number of melas suggested by Venkatamahi. But the names that he used did not adhere to kaTapayAdi scheme which makes the claim somewhat shallow.

At any rate there is plenty of scope for research in this area....

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Mar 2008, 05:18

I thought it would be kAtyAyana, pANini and Patanjali...

shadjam · Post by **shadjam** » 21 Mar 2008, 06:50

Thanks, rshankar and vasya.

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 21 Mar 2008, 07:01

There is a beautiful sloka:
vAkyakAram vararuchim, bhAshyakaram patanjalim
pANinim sUtrkAram cha praNatO(a)smi munithrayam

In some version, the second half of the second line goes as
MAghE santhi thrayO gunAhA

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 21 Mar 2008, 07:18

Punarvasu wrote:There is a beautiful sloka:
vAkyakAram vararuchim, bhAshyakaram patanjalim
pANinim sUtrkAram cha praNatO(a)smi munithrayam

In some version, the second half of the second line goes as
MAghE santhi thrayO gunAhA

That's a different one

upamA kALidAsasya bhAravErartha gouravam
daNDinaH padalAlityam mAghE santi trayO guNAH

-Ramakriya

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 21 Mar 2008, 07:24

ramakriya, I remembered suddenly that I made a mistake and came to correct it; and found yours.Thanks a lot.
In this also the last quarter sometimes reads as bhANabhattEridam thrayam.
Thanks once again

vasya10 · Post by **vasya10** » 21 Mar 2008, 08:06

Punarvasu wrote:vAkyakAram vararuchim, bhAshyakaram patanjalim
pANinim sUtrkAram cha praNatO(a)smi munithrayam

Yes thats what I had in mind, but Ive heard vararuchi and katyAyana are the same person. But not sure whether the vararuchi credited with katapayAdi is the same person again.

tmohan · Post by **tmohan** » 21 Mar 2008, 12:20

Why we need to multiply the nos. to get 1000 or 10 for om namshivAya or Rama resply. ? Does it follow any kaTapayAdi SankhyA rule? Then we can simplify the nos. further to even Zero.

In "caracara" or "phala" , the numbers represented are as 2626 and 32 resply. and not further simplified .

The vararuci credited with katapayAdi sankhya (KS) is the sanskrit grammarian. I got this answer from RMIC when I was talking about the deviation of the mELa names cakravAham and vishvambari from vararuci's rule.

Dravidian way doesn't have this reversal. One may recollect the famous poem "ettEkal lakShaNane.." by the Poet avvaiyAr ( in Tamil) denouncing the other Poet kambar ( Eight is represented by the letter `a' and kAl-quarter by "va"- This phrase means avalakShaNan meaning ugly looking ). I have heard from my grand father scolding chlidren politely as " oNNE mukkAl taiiannA" ( 1- 3/4 tai - kazhutai - donkey)or " Ezhu anju maiyannA"
( 7 - 5 - mai -erumai - buffalo). Many numbers in Tamil are represented by the Granta script- may be be we can crack some .

Mohan

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 21 Mar 2008, 14:27

I maybe straying away from the topic-but just a small clarification is needed. There is a sloka which reads as
yOgEna chiththasya, padEna vAchAm
malam sharIrasya cha vaidyakEna
yO(a)pAkarOththam pravaram munInAm
pathanjalim prAnjalirAnathO(a)smi
This talks of Patanjali-of yOga, the grammarian and the one in the field of medicine.
Are these three different or the same?
In this sloka he is referred as a single person-in singular
Sorry - this query does not fit in this thread.
Somebody please clarify.Thanks.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Mar 2008, 20:20

That is a nice complimentary shloka on Maharishi Patanjali. Some do claim all three are one and the same. See
http://www.iloveindia.com/spirituality/ ... njali.html
He is also a purANik figure who was a siddha observing Siva dance at citsabha. Along with vyAgrapAdA he came to Thillai (Chidambaram) seeking to see Siva dance. There is a very beautiful song on it by GKB 'pittham theLiya...' very nicely sung by MMD in which he states:
'pAmbuM puliyum mei pADu paTTu paartthu payiriTTathu' Where pAmbu = patanjali and puli is vyAgrapAda. He was supposed to be the incarnation of AdisESha whence called pAmbu.

It is indeed difficult to reconcile the identity of the grammarian, vaidya and yogi (let alone the sivayogi) with the same person. The writings do not suggest any connections (as far as I know)!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 21 Mar 2008, 20:30

mohan

It is interesting that in Tamil the alphabet is used to code the digits. In sanskrit they had special symbols for the digits and it will be interesting to investigate the evolution of these lipis and to decode some of the abstract messages coded in the ancient verses of the siddhas. Perhaps kaTapayAdi is just one limb of the coding scheme...

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 22 Mar 2008, 18:21

cml wrote-
''pAmbuM puliyum mei pADu paTTu paartthu payiriTTathu' Where pAmbu = patanjali and puli is vyAgrapAda. He was supposed to be the incarnation of AdisESha whence called pAmbu.

Is this what Shri MSD sings in Ananda natanaprakasham?
'divya patanjali vyAgrapAda darshitha kunjithAbja charanam'-

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Mar 2008, 19:38

No!
This is the song 'piththam theLiya marunthonRirukkuthu pErinba manRinuLLE'. by Gopala Krishna Bharati (GKB) in his opera Nandanar charithiram. The song has been sung with nice feeling by MM Desikar.
This is the story in brief. When Adisesha saw ViShNu dancing in glee enquired the reason, viSHNu mentioned that it was due to the mirh generated after witnessing Siva's dance at dAruka forest. When shESha prayed to Siva requesting to witness the dance, the Lord commanded him to be born on earth and approcah the sage vyAgrapAda who was praying for years to witness the same. He was born into the outstretched skirt (a~njal) of anusuyA who seeing the snake dropped him on her foot and hence he was called patanjali. As he grew up he approached vyAgrapAda and both of them went to winess Siva dancing at citsabha at thillai where the present Nataraja temple is at Chidambaram. Both of them prayed to the Lord to stay in the dance posture at Chidambaram for the benefit of humanity and he obliged. He also commanded 3000 of his devotees to go to chidambaram to take care of the puja and temple maintanence. Hence undoubtedly the Chidambaram Temple belongs to the Dikshitars. (The Govt of TN has no right o take it away from them and destroy the sanctity

(I stop my rant here). Patanjali was commanded by Lord Siva to compose a bhAShya for the Panini sutras which he did. And as the greatest of the yogis he also composed thte yogs sutra for the benefit of the humanity.....