Applause

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 12 Jul 2009, 07:05

Listening to concerts from the 50s to the 90s, I've been rather intrigued by the evolution of audience applause during concerts. In most of the concerts from the 50s and 60s, and some concerts from the 70s as well, the audience does not clap unless something particularly extraordinary is sung/played, and in an MMI concert I was re-listening to from the late 60s, the audience doesn't even clap at the end of each piece. From the 70s/80s onwards, the audience claps at least at the end of each piece. In the 90s (and some concerts from the 80s), the audience claps at the end of alapanais and at the end of pieces. Nowadays, of course, the audience claps (1) at the end of the vocalist's alapanai, (2) at the end of the violinist's alapanai, (3) at the end of the final round of second speed neraval, (4) after the concluding kOrvai of kalpana swaras, (5) at the end of each individual round of the thani and at the end of the thani as well, (6) at the end of each piece, (7) whenever someone carefully builds up to and reaches the tara panchamam (this is common to all decades--especially when the violinist plays fast phrases in kAmbOji/ kalyANi leading up to tara pa and when MMI sings tara pa in GMP,MG, RGSRG,), and (8) whenever long sequences of brighas are sung (especially for Sanjay).

So my question is, what has prompted this evolution in audience applause over the decades? Is the current clap-happy culture good or bad? Personally, I'm a little irritated during concerts when I feel almost obligated to join everyone in clapping after each subsegment of each piece and I think it ruins the atmosphere a little. Also, the excessive applause these days has almost rendered applause meaningless since it's dished out in an almost formulaic manner that the artiste knows what he needs to execute (specially items 3, 4, 7, and 8 above) in order to draw applause. Listening to concerts from the 60s, when the audience does applaud, I think it's really rather meaningful (most of the time).

Thoughts?

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 12 Jul 2009, 07:08

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 12 Jul 2009, 07:12

Ah, that would be right (has happened in Ranjani Gayathri concerts I've attended/heard). Add (10): singing kurai onDrum illai (especially Sudha--the wild applause the moment she sings the pallavi has occurred in all her concerts I've attended). I think we can probably at least compile a list in this thread on "How to be an Applause Winning Artiste". (11) might be playing a really loud climax in a thani segment.

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 12 Jul 2009, 07:27

It is customary in Western Classical programs for the audience to clap at the end of each item. Some NRIs who returned to India in the late sixties or early seventies must have started to follow this custom. Also it is in the seventies that a lot of carnatic musicians started performing in western countries and these artists accepted/expected such adulation in India as well at the end of each item. This multiplied into more frequent applauses, deserved and undeserved ones as well. Now vocalists also extend deserved and many times uncalled for "bale"s and "sabash"s to the accompanists. I have noted T.M.Krishna saying "bale" at the first stoke of the violinist !

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 12 Jul 2009, 07:31

You all forgot one occasion which is quite worthy of applause:
12) When singers stand at some swara for about a minute without break. Sanjay, M Balamurali, etc. are skilled at this.

Applause is spontaneous nowadays, I suppose. The body has tuned itself to applaud in all these occasions. The hands just come together on their own if the mind experiences bliss! I don't think clapping is wrong, but there has to be some criteria for clapping. I don't subscribe to clapping in all the 12 occasions mentioned but in a few, I think clapping is essential. I mean, how else can we show the artiste that we like their music? No time for us nor them to meet after the concert. Half of them don't have e mail IDS, websites. The telephone isn't a good way of communication for trivial things. Applause is the only way of praising the performers. Excessive clapping is irrational, of course. But, deserving pieces need good applause.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 12 Jul 2009, 07:33

Sundara Rajan wrote:It is customary in Western Classical programs for the audience to clap at the end of each item. Some NRIs who returned to India in the late sixties or early seventies must have started to follow this custom. Also it is in the seventies that a lot of carnatic musicians started performing in western countries and these artists accepted/expected such adulation in India as well at the end of each item. This multiplied into more frequent applauses, deserved and undeserved ones as well. Now vocalists also extend deserved and many times uncalled for "bale"s and "sabash"s to the accompanists. I have noted T.M.Krishna saying "bale" at the first stoke of the violinist !

Very logical explanation, sundara rajan.
What you say is absolutely true. I have seen TMK saying 'sabAsh' even for a simple thIrmAnam! He says that too loudly, in fact.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 12 Jul 2009, 07:33

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 12 Jul 2009, 07:50

Sundara Rajan, yours is indeed a sensible explanation. However, I do wonder--so the NRIs returned armed with new opinions about applause gained from the West but stuck to old attitudes about walking in and out of the concert hall per their whims and fancies?!

Srinivas, certainly an extended kArvai especially at tara shadjam or gandharam for a long time gets applause. Sanjay does seem to be the beneficiary most of the time. Surprisingly, nobody claps when an artiste dips to the mandra shadjam/ anumandra sthayi... I wonder why. To me, that's even more extraordinary.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 12 Jul 2009, 07:52

Yeah, in a TMK concert I was listening to last week, the violinist merely tunes his instrument between pieces and briefly plays shadjam and TMK quickly says "sabAsh"!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 12 Jul 2009, 07:59

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Jul 2009, 08:50

A bit of everything, I think. The advent of TV talent programs in India too, where each singer is applauded after a few minutes of performance, perhaps. We get wired for this kind of behavior.

Bilahari,
Yes. In the forties and fifties, applauding was frugal. 'aplAs vAngaRadu' meant some super achievement.
Yes, they can wait until the end of a piece at least. That extended kArvai at tArA shadjam or gAndhAram induces a meditative, serene mood in me. It also indicates (in most cases) that the vocalist is losing himself/herself in that space of nothingness (or everything).
So, that applause irks me too. Suddenly I feel like I am sitting with an audience which is watching an acrobat perform the most difficult feat. Another not so nice a gesture is when the applause starts 'before' a lovely piece is finished!
Yes, mantara sthAyi 'stay' would be even more impressive. But what do you know? We may not like the applauding there either!

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Jul 2009, 08:55

Aisi laagi lagan - when Anup Jalota starts this first three words, the whole auditorium applauds - so applauds have become a sign of welcome too

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Jul 2009, 09:18

When do I like to applaud most?
When the organizer welcomes the artistes.
When the organizer finishes his lo....ng speech.
And also when the speech is brief and has substance
That again, happens once in a rare while---if at all...

sagars · Post by **sagars** » 12 Jul 2009, 09:31

I I remeber right inone of his speeches at the MA the late President Mr R Vekatraman had said that we should honour the artisit by giving them a standing ovation at the end of the concert. I thnik this would perhaps add dignity without disturbing the mood of classical rasikas during the concert.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2009, 09:45

---when some idiot organiser asks for "another big hand for...". I sit on my hands then and glare. Appreciation of any kind should be spontaneous; if it is prompted it is worthless.

To Sundara Rajan's excellent explanation, I'd like to add: the influence of television.

I share Arasi's unease at applause. There are times that it completely shatters the very special atmosphere that has been built by an extra-ordinary performance. But what to do? It has become the norm, and we should not leave the artists wondering what they did wrong!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 12 Jul 2009, 10:20

bilahari wrote:(3) at the end of the final round of second speed neraval, (4) after the concluding kOrvai of kalpana swaras, (7) whenever someone carefully builds up to and reaches the tara panchamam (this is common to all decades--especially when the violinist plays fast phrases in kAmbOji/ kalyANi leading up to tara pa and when MMI sings tara pa in GMP,MG, RGSRG,)

Bilahari,
An excellent topic.To me the above two is the most irritating , most of the times I feel the audience by clapping preemptively block the flow of few more saNgathis that the artist would have sung.

Nowadays for many young artist(s) who are say below 30, I see lot of friends of the young artist clapping too, that clapping is more like college culturals for them I guess.

To me the best of applause when there is a a pause by the audience collectively after few saNgathis and then a loud round of applause

. The maximum applause in terms of sound is hearing maharAjapuram santhanam singing bhO sambHO in revati

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Jul 2009, 10:26

Rajesh,
I am glad you brought the 'meaningful' pause. That too is spontaneous, by the way. And a moment of oneness in the hearts of the rasikAs.

Nick,
When I mentioned speeches, I knew you would be somewhere nearby paying attention to it, wanting to jump in, and here you are!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2009, 14:40

I have seen an audience clap hopefuly that it is the end of the speach. Several times, too; and the mischievous grin from the speech maker indicated that he knew our game, and that he would be the one to win it!

But this, as are the speeches, is anciliary to the matter of the music itself. Reading this thread, in fact, makes me aware of how much applause has become habitual --- especially at the end of the kalpana swaras. The last of the korvais is the edipu for the applause, and tala-putting moves effortlessly to clapping.

The point where I feel that the main artist is done out of his due recognition is the end of the main item. It has really ended, for the audience, with the beginning of the thani, and may be almost forgotten by the end, at which point our applause is for the percussionists, and, even if the artist gives a line or two in conclusion, it is only an echo of what may have been a great performance, and may even be lost in the now-hyped-up percussionists giving a dramatic and extended thiermanam, which is more an ending to their thani than it is to the song. I think I posted in a thread on the makings of a great thani, that it should, like the kalpana swaras, feel like part of the song it occurs in, rather than a departure.

Jigyaasa · Post by **Jigyaasa** » 12 Jul 2009, 15:03

I dunno if this is right, but I think it's worth a shot. I personally think that in those days, the average "knowledge" of the audience in a Carnatic concert was more because a lot of ppl used to learn it themselves. I mean the percentage of the audience who had significant know-how was more than it is now. So it was probably harder to impress (?) them and thereby generate an applause.

Instant gratification seems to be the order of the day now. Someone sings your fav kriti, a big round of applause (no matter how many times you've heard the same artiste singing). Someone resorts to what is also referred to as "gimmickry" (borrowed from newspaper reviews, SVK IIRC), big round of applause...

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 12 Jul 2009, 15:04

Coolji, is that the "jooT eppaDi" recording of MDR? If so, yes, I've heard it--a priceless vasanta. And a nice trick by MDR as well... I thought he was done with the song!

I absolutely agree that interrupting serene kArvais and drowning out mandra sthayi explorations with applause is very disruptive. I'm also quite irritated that artistes oblige by singing an explosive kOrvai with the percussionists thundering along at the end of at least the submain and main pieces, if not in almost every piece almost with the sole purpose of eliciting more decibel-augmenting applause from the audience, leaving the whole concert hall vibrating with noise upon noise upon noise.

Don't even get me started on neverending speeches prefixing and suffixing the music! But I don't need to get started when Nick and Arasi vent all my frustrations for me. Yes, the sad thing is the speech giving person always wins and he/she knows it

Standing ovations also bug me. I've been to too many functions recently where people give a standing ovation almost as if it's a custom. If we reduce almost every form and grade of appreciation to habit, how would we show our appreciation for a truly extraordinary performance? I wonder...

visaalam · Post by **visaalam** » 12 Jul 2009, 15:57

I am told that LGJ did not like applause.

Is that true?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Jul 2009, 18:58

applause to stop the organizers effort to steal the attention to himself/herself in the beginning or at the end

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 12 Jul 2009, 19:00

Sundara Rajan wrote:It is customary in Western Classical programs for the audience to clap at the end of each item.

In exceptional cases, the audience does clap when a musician of the calibre of Mr. Pavarotti launches into its favourite song.
Ave Maria: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uYrmYXs ... re=related

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Jul 2009, 19:01

Standing ovations also bug me. I've been to too many functions recently where people give a standing ovation almost as if it's a custom. If we reduce almost every form and grade of appreciation to habit, how would we show our appreciation for a truly extraordinary performance?

I completely agree. It seems to me to be done just because it is a big-name artist that has deigned to come and sing for us.

Actually, I suspect that many people stand up because they are about to leave, rather than for the artist!!!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Jul 2009, 19:17

I think this whole concept of applause ties in with the idea of 'appreciation' - I have surmised that in olden SI culture, publicly expressed appreciation (especially to the person's face) was thought to derail the fragility of what was good to begin with (casting the evil eye if you will) and this extended all the way from cooking to how one performed on the stage - no one publicly or openly praised success, while criticism was given very generously. Appreciation had to be inferred from the lack of criticism, or a backhanded compliment - (a famous one is 'today's rasam is not as good as yesterday's was' from which one could either chose to a) be upset at the criticism of the rasam being served today, or b) feel thrilled that yesterday's offering met a certain bar!). I think, along those lines, in a concert, appreciation was conveyed by silent immersion in the music, and an involuntary 'tch...' that escaped the audience despite their most disciplined best intentions. What the NRIs and the newer generations did was to make it OK to express appreciation openly, and to the person's face, and I think the concept of applause mirrored those trends.

I do agree that it is taken to unfortunate lengths now, and my pet peeve is a standing ovation - what bugs me more is that if I do not think that standing up is merited, others glare at you as if you are too dumb to appreciate the 'wonder' that was offered, or that you are a blot on Miss Manners' escutcheon! I must learn to glare back...

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 12 Jul 2009, 19:55

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 12 Jul 2009, 20:02

A very good thread by Bilahari. I remember Vedavalli Mami stating in no uncertain terms not to applaud blindly for everything . (link below- post no 10)

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php? ... valli.html

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Jul 2009, 20:30

Bilahari,
I am happy that you started this topic! This is something which makes us stop and examine ourselves as rasikAs.

Ravi,
We still give criticism generously--here on the forum too! You are so right about the 'no praises at all' but a grunt of approval, may be once in a while and 'evil eye' fear too (on the part of mothers and grandmothers)! Things are changing, thank goodness.

Jigyaasa,
I don't think the listeners were any better in yester years. There were those who knew a lot, and others who just went to listen to good music. While detailed delienations of concerts did take place, most of
the rasikAs did not indulge in them. They loved music because it was soul satisfying, sang praises of their gods or was simply entertaining. There was no television at home to stare at. They took a walk, ended up in a concert or in a park to listen to the radio (not many had a radio at home).
If anything, there are more knowledgeable rasikAs now because learning about CM is so very easy in this age of communication.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 12 Jul 2009, 20:39

rshankar wrote:Appreciation had to be inferred from the lack of criticism, or a backhanded compliment - (a famous one is 'today's rasam is not as good as yesterday's was' from which one could either chose to a) be upset at the criticism of the rasam being served today, or b) feel thrilled that yesterday's offering met a certain bar!). ...

Ravi,

I will keep that in mind when the rasam is "not so good" . My wife will wonder at this left handed compliment and strain her mind to think what was so good in yesterday's rasam.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Jul 2009, 20:45

As for standing ovations, Nick is right again. It also gives a moment for some rasikAs to prime themselves before they aim for the exit.
Not wanting to clap when others are clapping makes you a spoil sport.

Another peeve: mangalams are sung in thirty seconds now. Four lines are sung without repeating the lines. Many get up before it is finished and disrupt others and show disrespect to the performers too.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 12 Jul 2009, 20:46

Cienu,
Or, what was 'not' so good about her usually excellent rasam

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Jul 2009, 22:23

it was not vEppalai poo rasam

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Jul 2009, 22:46

cienu wrote:Ravi,

I will keep that in mind when the rasam is "not so good" . My wife will wonder at this left handed compliment and strain her mind to think what was so good in yesterday's rasam.

cienu,

If you survive to tell the tale, we will infer that your wife, in addition to being a good cook, is a generous and kind-hearted person as well!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 12 Jul 2009, 23:02

Another easy way to get in troubled waters is, if someone says their rasam is not really as good as their sambar, you can foolishly say 'Oh, don't underestimate yourself, your rasam is better than your sambar'

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Jul 2009, 23:06

yella itetta vida, rasam tAn nanna yirukku

Svaapana · Post by **Svaapana** » 13 Jul 2009, 05:13

1.The applause syndrome started during the sixties. That was the time AIR started their National program of Music. These live broadcasts were from concerts held in Delhi before "invited"

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Jul 2009, 07:36

'ANNAmalai manRamE adirndadu' in those days would have meant a performance which gave one goose bumps...

Sundara Rajan · Post by **Sundara Rajan** » 13 Jul 2009, 08:06

I would like to respond to Bilahari's grievance (post No.8) at the bad behavior of NRIs walking in and out of concerts in progress. We Indians ( that should include me! ) are very well behaved amidst international congregations, observe the "queue" allowing at least one foot space from the person ahead in the line. The moment we are among Indians only around, bad behavior overcomes us. Even in temple events here in the U.S. we do not strictly observe the queue system and/or push the person ahead. We politely stand in line for an hour, if necessary, in the U.S airport while leaving for India. The moment we land in India, we stand too close to person ahead in the line at the airport, start fighting for the luggage cart, for the taxi etc. Is it the environment or is it our genetics that make us behave like this?!

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 13 Jul 2009, 10:12

I sometimes clap for youngsters myself. I tend to clap for senior musicians when the whole hall around me claps, though I don't think I should.

I usually lean closer, nod sharply, or lean back, sometimes close my eyes or open them wider.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 13 Jul 2009, 10:43

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Jul 2009, 11:20

Bilahari: Good topic!

bilahari wrote:Surprisingly, nobody claps when an artiste dips to the mandra shadjam/ anumandra sthayi... I wonder why. To me, that's even more extraordinary.

srikant's closing the eyes and leaning back is probably the automatic physical reaction for such mandra sthayi prayogas.

From what svaapana wrote, even in those days, it looks like applause was not really for some extra ordinary piece of music but only for creation of excitement in the higher sthayis. The audience of that era does not come smelling good either. What if Sri. Arunachalam played an extraordinary thodi that day without touching the thara Da! When did touching tara da become the defining characteristic of an extraordinary thodi? That is the point Arasi was probably making as well.

Yeah, in a TMK concert I was listening to last week, the violinist merely tunes his instrument between pieces and briefly plays shadjam and TMK quickly says "sabAsh"!

On the lighter side, the artist having gotten used to the regular violinist, utters 'sabAsh' ahead of time.

That will be a good comedic routine in a tv serial.

I think clapping at the end of alapana can be curtailed by the audience. The kalpanaswaram kOrvai is a climactic finish and it is an automatic reaction by the audience which may not be avoidable. What affects me is the applause at the end of the thani. In terms of climax it is similar to the kalpanaswaram kOrvai so I may be inconsistent here. There is lot of beauty in that take back point and continuing with the song and the mridangist bringing everything to a soft and safe landing. All that beauty is lost in that applause. Here is an alternative. Let the audience clap at the end of the song. Then the artist can point towards the percussionists and audience can applaud them, the decibel level reflecting how much they liked the thani. It is only a few seconds later so it should still be fresh in their mind. May be impractical.

When music was mainly in royal courts and temples, how did that audience express their appreciation?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Jul 2009, 11:31

It will be good to know the opinions and impressions of members here who are concert artists.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 13 Jul 2009, 18:03

I remember, in a Sri Trivandrum Venkatraman(Veena) concert, he was playing the most familiar nAttakuranji varnam, chala mEla. He played till the mukhthAyi swaram and paused for half a minute or so to set the shruthi. The mridangam player was playing too. He ended with a thIrmAnam to progress on to the charanam. After the thIrmAnam, the audience started clapping, thinking the varnam was over!!

This is the lack of attention that prevails in instrumental concerts!

vallaki · Post by **vallaki** » 13 Jul 2009, 20:25

This is a very interesting discussion. My opinion is that applause is always welcome , so long as it is at the correct junction, after a truly exhilarating effort , or , for the newcomers, at the end of each song, so that they are encouraged.

People from the 50s and 60s are usually very stoic, inexpressive and poker faced.. To have a composed calm face was considered the norm.. Additionally, I think people of that generation also did not express appreciation easily .I will not judge if that was a good or bad thing. I think each generation has its own hues in music appreciation.

There are a few exceptions though..
If you listen to the live recording of MSS , in Carnigie Hall , One can observe the thunderous applause after the Brilliant Goose pimple inducing neraval in the 'Ikanainana ' song . I think the applause was well deserved.There is also a thunderous applause after the kalpana swarams of O RANGA SAYEE , Well deserved of course !!!

Any artist , I think, has to be motivated to perform with renewed energy if the audience is willing to listen and is enthusiastic and energetic. I myself have been in concerts of Aruna Saitam and Sudha Ragunathan, and have seen renewed energy when the encouragement is displayed after a brilliant neraval or kalpana swaram.Same with Mridangists. Poor percussionists are so used to people walking away during tani avarthanams, but in occassions where the audience displays interest by encouraging with applause and standing ovations, the gratifications expressed in the face as well is the music is undeniable.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 13 Jul 2009, 21:04

vallaki · Post by **vallaki** » 13 Jul 2009, 21:07

coolkarni wrote:One of the worst albums , in this regard, is the Geneva Concert duet of L Sub-Bismillah.There is an applause every 3 minutes.

On another occasion (and i have written about this before ,here) Nikhil Bannerji was once , reportedly upset when the audience broke into an applause , as he reached a climax ,in a raga-after an hour or so.
And his reason was
"I took an hour to build a platform , just for those last few minutes of ecstasy, and none of you heard it.What I was working on for well over an hour was drowned in applause when it really mattered.........

One of the reasons I started avoiding HM concerts with the Likes of Zakir Husain.It moves on in a different direction .. But the same artist can be so different with someone like , say Balkrishna Iyer on the tabla.
Applause not only troubles the serious listener.Applause just for the sake of big ticket names , gets you by the throat.

Great Topic Bilahari .....

Dear Coolkarni,
Without meaning to offend, you must indeed be one of those stoic rasikas I mention !!!!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Jul 2009, 21:16

vallaki: 'stoic' may be the wrong word since Cool is the opposite of 'not affected by or showing passion or feeling'. One does not have to jump up and down every 3 minutes to show passion or feeling or clap so much for a super star tabla player that drowns out the main artist etc. or drown out the climax with applause when the climax itself is to be savored in full without the noise of applause. 'Mature' and 'Considerate' are probably the words you are looking for.

vallaki · Post by **vallaki** » 13 Jul 2009, 21:24

OK, Dear Vasathakokilam sir, I take back my 'stoic'.'Mature' and 'Considerate' it is !!!!!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Jul 2009, 22:07

The worst examples of audience reaction are Western audiences watching HM or fusion music. They treat it like a pop concert, especially the percussion, breaking into wild clapping at a little effortless tikka from the tabla. Oh well, I suppose a little tabla tikka is quite impressive to those who are not familiar with it!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 14 Jul 2009, 03:02

What is this - people cannot put talam, should not say 'chu chu chu', and should not even clap/applaud!

Hope we are not converting a CM concert into a dirge!