Toronto Brothers in Detroit Navrathri Festival

muthukumaran · Post by **muthukumaran** » 06 Sep 2009, 21:50

Navarathri concert by
Toronto Brothers
Keerthana Shankar (violin)
Rohan Krishnamurthy (mridangam)
Karthik Venkatraman (Khanjira)

The concert by the brothers started late, as usual. The artists are well trained and gave a pleasing account of themselves. For someone born in America, their diction and bhava were very good. My concern is their lack of experience. The concert was loaded with too many "main"

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 06 Sep 2009, 22:40

Thanks for the review, could you please expand on this statement of yours - "He is a true torch bearer of the Palghat lineage"?

mahesh_narayan · Post by **mahesh_narayan** » 06 Sep 2009, 23:06

Please post a song list. At least let us know what they sang !!!

muthukumaran · Post by **muthukumaran** » 06 Sep 2009, 23:29

srkris wrote:Thanks for the review, could you please expand on this statement of yours - "He is a true torch bearer of the Palghat lineage"?

I am from Kerala and after the concert I went and talked to the mridangist and he said his parents hailed from Palghat. We all know palghat has a great tradition of mrdiangam and musicains I told him exactly what I wrote and meant. No more no less.

muthukumaran · Post by **muthukumaran** » 06 Sep 2009, 23:33

mahesh_narayan wrote:Please post a song list. At least let us know what they sang !!!

I hope some one can do this. There were some rare krithis which are not sung even by profrssional these days. As far as I could remember
Varnam
Giriraja thanaya
......
......
.......
All these in elaborate fashin
Thodi Very elaborate. Tani avarthanam could have been here since by then people were getting restless.
Kalayani Mega elaborate
Tukadas two or three

Sreeni Rajarao · Post by **Sreeni Rajarao** » 07 Sep 2009, 04:02

I believe Keertana Shankar (15 year old) is Jayashankar Balan's student. She is a vocalist as well, training under Madurai Sundar.

cz8zpk · Post by **cz8zpk** » 07 Sep 2009, 05:31

That is correct, Kirtana is Jay Shankar balan' student in Detroit.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Sep 2009, 06:50

They are students of Sri. SRJ and you can probably sense their guru's scholarly and traditional influence in their concerts. Hope you enjoyed their singing even if the krithis were not well known.

I am curious what all they sang. They are members here and if they see this thread, they can post the full song list.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 07 Sep 2009, 14:09

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 07 Sep 2009, 14:27

muthukumaran · Post by **muthukumaran** » 07 Sep 2009, 18:54

cz8zpk wrote:That is correct, Kirtana is Jay Shankar balan' student in Detroit.

I am sorry about the misunderstanding. Some one stitting next to me gave me a wrong information and I was myself busy at the dinner during the introductions. May be she can provide a list of the songs and details.
She certainly has potentials and needs training and experience in swara rendering especially if she has to play for a variety of artists. The Toronto brothers thesmelves were quite adept in swaras and the whole concert would have rivalled any other if it had lasted for 2 hours, This is my humble opinion and should be seriously concerned by all the visiting artists. Also make sure the thani avaratanam is at a decent stage of the concert and not before mangalam. I know the main artists in India are scared to disturb the status quo, but US is the palce to bring in changes. Let the organizers, the younger generation insist on time management and the habit will stick. I rememebr one elderly gentleman commenting in Cleveland after a marathon TNS concert " if you can not show your talent in 5 minutes, you cannot show it in five hours", How well said.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Sep 2009, 22:21

muthukumaran: You may be more at home in Chennai than in Detroit with respect to concert duration

The general impression I get is that Chennai concerts have gone shorter, especially during the season. Our members who are regular concert goers seem to wish for longer concerts. In North America, depending on the audience and organizers, artists have more freedom singing for 3+ hours including some elaborate pallavis. Sri. Seshagopalan, at least in the 1990s, is known for his longer than usual concerts in NA. In one concert I recall, he started an RTP at the 2.5 hour mark!! Audience stuck around. I fully understand why someone woud not want to sit through 4 hours, my own ideal duration is around 2.5+ hours. But the comment you quote from that elderly gentleman should be taken as a statement in exasperation. Though it is true that vidwath can be expressed in 5 minutes, it does not make too much sense in this context if taken too literally.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 08 Sep 2009, 08:22

Vidvat can be shown in five minutes, perhaps. If it is considerable, you would like to hear more, won't you?!

VKokilam,
Remember Johnny Carson's 'good stuff' which meant top notch? Such concerts need to go on for three hours or more. With upcoming artistes, two hours seem ample enough.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 08 Sep 2009, 12:25

What krithis were presented for kalyani and thodi. Which varnam was rendered? Was there another sub-main item?

A lot of interesting observations in your review however, I feel that a decent song list would give it an element of credibility.

music_is_life · Post by **music_is_life** » 12 Sep 2009, 22:01

Song list:
1) Varnam- amrithavarshini ragam- Ata thalam- Sahitya from the famous krithi 'Anananda amritavarshini'- composed by Shri.SRJ
2) Giriraja sudha- Bangala
3)KalAvati kamalasana yuvati- Kalavati ragam- Dikshitar kriti
4) Amba manam kaninDu- Banduvarali- R,S
5) KamaKshi- Bhairavi swarajati
6)Pahimam Sri Rajarajeshwari- Jana ranjani
7) Ambanadhunin- Thodi- R, N, S (Sub-main)
8)Kamalambam Bhajare- Kalyani (Main )-R,N,S, Thani
9)Palukute- Purandara kriti- Abheri(?)
10)Sakhi prana- Chenchurutti(?)
11Thillana - Behag
12) Thirupugazh
13) Mangalam

muthukumaran · Post by **muthukumaran** » 12 Sep 2009, 23:59

Thanks for posting the song list. I would never have been able to do that. My point is the thodi itself was like a main piece and by that time the hall was getting emptied fast. Then the kalyani, another mega piece, and the thani avratnam had no meaning after that. The artists should have sense and value of time and also respect for accompanists. This is not a Toronto Brothers issue, it is universal. It is high time CM concerts evolved from the days of zamindars and rich families who demanded a five hours plus (with two thani avartanams) from the artists who also had all the time in the world, doing nothing other than performing, chewing vettilai and playing cards. These days, many artists are involved in various activities and the audience even more busy with their own shedule. So take a resolve. Time your concerts for 2 hours with the thani avratanam after one hour. At the end of 2 hours, if there is response from the audience, go on as you wish.
As for audience, don't go by the attitude of "I want my money's worth". If you have paid 15$ for the ticket don't exploit the performers to perform for three to four hours thinking that that is how you can get your money's worth.
To the organizers: Don't tempt the artists by saying that so and so sang for four hours. This places the artists,especially the visiting ones, in a fix, to outdo that to make an impression and get a recall next year.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 13 Sep 2009, 00:22

Thanks music_is_life for the song list. That provides the necessary context for the concert. I feel that this thread has spent too much time on the length of the concert rather than on the content of the concert, your song list definitely brings it back to some balance. That is an excellent song list, I would have definitely stuck around for 2.5 to 3 hours if the quality was good. Hope someone can provide an actual review of the performance itself.

muthukumaran, now I know that "thani avartanam is at a decent stage of the concert and not before mangalam" should not be taken literally.

I am sure there are quite a few people who feel like you do campaigning for a 2 hour concert and you have expressed your reasons for it. Let us forget the 5+ hour concerts of yesteryear, they are indeed a thing of the past. Most concerts are 2.5 hours with some going up to 3 hours. Any thing greater than 3 is an outlier. I do not think a concert with a submain, main plus an RTP can be accomodated in 2 hours.

The general bias among the members here is for longer concerts ( 3 hours ) with a elaborate RTP (going by their reviews). How long was this concert anyway?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Sep 2009, 00:35

muthukumaran wrote: Time your concerts for 2 hours with the thani avratanam after one hour. At the end of 2 hours, if there is response from the audience, go on as you wish.

That's your pov - others may want a 3 hour concert and consider a 2-hour concert sort of an appetizer. This is a tight-rope that artists walk, and expecting them to satisfy everyone is not feasible. I think the right thing to do is to attend these concerts, be as supportive, attend for as long as you can, and feel happy that the future of CM is in capable hands.

I am still trying to understand what the peeve is about the concert:
1) What is the worst down-side of a long concert? That people leave? If it doesn't bother the artists, why should it bother the audience that sticks around?
2) Is it bad because the audience feels duty-bound to stay and listen? I think one should have the freedom to go whenever it is convenient, and not be dictated by the length of the concert.
3) Is it bad because the accompanying artists are not treated well because by the time the tani rolls around, the hall is empty? I can guarantee that despite the best efforts of people to educate us rasikas, tanis (at whatever juncture they are played) will signal the exodus of people to catch up, look at the CDs on display, take bathroom breaks etc.

4) Or, is the peeve that the concert was not planned well with too may heavy items?

In any case, I think Ashwin and Rohin should be left alone to mature into seasoned performers. I am sure that our points of view will be considered, but to ask that these ps.o.v be treated very seriously is a bit too much!!

ON an entirely another note - Ashwin/Rohin - can you upload the varNam? - sounds very interesting and I am dying to hear it....

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Sep 2009, 02:07

I like the list too. WOuld like to hear the kalAvati kruti and the (popularized by MKT) song in pantuvarALi 'ambA, manam kaninunadu kaDaikkaN.
About short concerts: Rajesh often says how when it is a short concert, our forumite Surayaprakash gets shortchanged, and it is true.
Yes, a number of tukkaDAs are always popular in a concert. Even the so called serious rasikAs relax with them after a long RTP.

music_is_life · Post by **music_is_life** » 13 Sep 2009, 06:08

The concert started around 7.20PM after an entire afternoon of Individual singing and group renditions. The concert itself was only for 3 hours. The perception that it was long was because of the other events of the day, selection of heavy krithis and the typical nature of the Detroit crowd for mass exodus. In my opinion, the concert was outstanding and please note that the youngsters on the stage were all born and brought up in North America. It was a total team effort by the artists on the stage. To the credit of Toronto brothers, they gave equal opportunity to the violinist by encouraging the young artist to play ragam for the same duration and also giving ample opportunity in kuraippus and korvais during the swaram rendition. I have seen some chennai artists showing a peculiar face when violinist exceed the 50% of the time the alapanai was rendered. For example, in this concert the Banduvarali ragam was for 8 minutes, Thodi was rendered for about 13 minutes and kalyani for about 18 minutes all equally shared between vocalist and violinist. Keerthana was outstanding in raga rendition and matched the bhava emoted by the Brothers. She also matched the Brothers in the complex patterns and Korvais. Being a vocalist herself, she brought out her sahitya knowledge while playing the neraval lines. I thoroughly enjoyed the Thani which lasted about 22 minutes. I wish there was RTP. I think the Brothers would have sang if the audience had not gestured "No No". I am sure there would have been at least 50 core music lovers who would have wanted it! After all, it takes tremendous effort for the organizers and the artist to plan and perform and the least we can do is to encourage them. These kids are a rare breed and let us nurture them!

kamalamba · Post by **kamalamba** » 13 Sep 2009, 06:28

Thanks music-is-life for the detailed review of the Toronto Brothers concert. Very nice selection. They routinely sing with Sri.SRJ in Madras and it would be really nice to hear some clips from this concert.
I wonder if the Toronto brothers or someone from Detroit can make part of the concert available for us to listen.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 13 Sep 2009, 07:07

Music_is_life, thank you for the songlist and comments. In terms of manOdharma (R, N, S, T), the songlist looks pretty standard, and I fail to see what exactly muthukumaran is griping about. In fact, the songlist looks very good to me-- unusual varNam, bhairavi swarajati, pahimAm srI, kamalAmbam bhajarE... I would love to listen to such a concert.

Muthukumaran, this is probably not the right forum in which to complain that concerts are too long or had too many "main-like" items!

No offense, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, and based on music_is_life's comments about the audience exodus and refusal for RTP, there are probably many others in your city even who feel like you do! However, if you've been reading this forum regularly, you would know that most of the active members want more manOdharma, elaborate RTPs, etc, which cannot be worked into a mere two hour format. But I definitely agree with you that thani should be given early into the concert, to curb an exodus... But the artistes might not agree (i.e. the vocalist might give thani after the main so that he can rest, but if the thani is given early into the concert, he may not even need the rest afforded by the thani, etc).

music_is_life · Post by **music_is_life** » 13 Sep 2009, 07:32

I have provided the link below to listen to a couple of songs from the concert.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/f5rgse (Varnam)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/l96j6p (Panduvarali- ragam)
http://www.sendspace.com/file/82yue2 (Panduvarali-krithi)

kamalamba · Post by **kamalamba** » 13 Sep 2009, 09:01

Thanks again music-is-life.

The varnam was indeed brilliant; the kriti was very good as well.

Glad I got to know / hear finally about the musical part of this concert.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 13 Sep 2009, 09:17

m_i_l: Thanks for the tracks!!

Jigyaasa · Post by **Jigyaasa** » 13 Sep 2009, 10:46

rshankar wrote:That's your pov - others may want a 3 hour concert and consider a 2-hour concert sort of an appetizer.

I am still trying to understand what the peeve is about the concert:
1) What is the worst down-side of a long concert? That people leave? If it doesn't bother the artists, why should it bother the audience that sticks around?
2) Is it bad because the audience feels duty-bound to stay and listen? I think one should have the freedom to go whenever it is convenient, and not be dictated by the length of the concert.
...
4) Or, is the peeve that the concert was not planned well with too may heavy items?

In any case, I think Ashwin and Rohin should be left alone to mature into seasoned performers. I am sure that our points of view will be considered, but to ask that these ps.o.v be treated very seriously is a bit too much!!

BRAVO!!! I'm totally against muthukumaran's views. Well, as always each one to his own... If he doesn't have the time to savour a 2.5 or 3 hr concert, that's HIS porblem. I don't think he has any right to sermonise how long a concert should be, given that he's neither an artist or ... Never mind. Enough said already...

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 15 Sep 2009, 10:04

I think there are several formats possible. From artists like Sanjay and TMK and manymore, you donot say what you want.
Let them give and they know better than us in what to sing. And they also track what they already
sang.
On a second option, in places like USA , where artist donot give concerts more often, it is better to go
by public demand. But again when you want to replace RTP time, I remember TVS sang a very good Kapi
(R,N,S) of Intha Sowkya after the main Kamboji and thani. It can still satisfy manodharma guys and Yenna Thavam
Seithanai people. Or a very good virutham - Ragamalika.

Regarding equal amount of sessions for violin, this is not a great gesture by main artist. It is actually
according to my opinion, disappointing the audience. One thing we need to clearly
understand is people like me go for main artist, not for accompanying artist. As a kutcheri dharmam
this is not required. If we observe , the violin solo concert, one can understand how much of violinist
skill is restrainted in a vocal concert will be clear. Mostly following the mood (musical) of main artist is what is required of.
And over that if we have 30 minutes of thani, will simply kill a possibility for an RTP.

And 5 minute vidwat than 5 hour : 5 minutes vidwat is for a competition and not for a concert. Sometime
you wait and wait in a concert and after 1 hour you get to listen to a never heard of Kamboji alapana ......

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 15 Sep 2009, 19:56

Thanks for the track. A kutcheri made up of youngsters gives it a special charm.

music_is_life · Post by **music_is_life** » 16 Sep 2009, 06:06

Rajaglan.. you raised a very important point. What is the 'dharmam' for a violinist in terms of duration of alapanai.. should be it be 50% or 80%. I agree that 100% is a lot.. probably the young violinist in this concert will realize it and mature as she performs more. Knowing that audience go for listening to the vocalist, I have noticed that the accompaniments who choose to play less are the most sought after!

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 16 Sep 2009, 12:15

music_is_life wrote:Rajaglan.. you raised a very important point. What is the 'dharmam' for a violinist in terms of duration of alapanai.. should be it be 50% or 80%. I agree that 100% is a lot.. probably the young violinist in this concert will realize it and mature as she performs more. Knowing that audience go for listening to the vocalist, I have noticed that the accompaniments who choose to play less are the most sought after!

I am not trained in CM , so my answer may not be correct for "dharmam". But what I come to understand and what I like
is a simple sequence of melodic phrases (in an alapana) of what the main artist sung. The idea is that the violinist observes and grasps what the
main artist has sung. But if some phrases cannot be remembered, then no time filling required out of manodharma of a violinist.
And especially no pick and present from what MMI, SSI, style in (say) TNS concert. Actually the mood and speed and volume
of the main artist is reiterated. Difficult to quantify, but if this is done, with the limitation of human memory, it will be less than 100%.
I am sure many will disagree here because this forces no manodharma for violinists.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Sep 2009, 19:47

rajaglan: I do not think that is how it works in practice. Violinists employ their own manodharma in their alapana. It is not necessarily modeled after what the main artist sang. Of course, they do not deviate from the overall kAlapramANam of the alapana of the main artist and do not try something drastically different that goes against the grain of the mood established by the main artist.

Many times, I like the beginning of a violin alapana more than the main artist. In other occasions, the raga identity comes through clearly only in the violin portion ( usually for small to medium songs with a short-sketch for the alapana )

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 18 Sep 2009, 10:00

vasanthakokilam wrote:rajaglan: I do not think that is how it works in practice. Violinists employ their own manodharma in their alapana. It is not necessarily modeled after what the main artist sang. Of course, they do not deviate from the overall kAlapramANam of the alapana of the main artist and do not try something drastically different that goes against the grain of the mood established by the main artist.

Many times, I like the beginning of a violin alapana more than the main artist. In other occasions, the raga identity comes through clearly only in the violin portion ( usually for small to medium songs with a short-sketch for the alapana )

Agree with you.. In practise everything is different.

raga82 · Post by **raga82** » 26 Dec 2009, 21:57

music_is_life wrote:Song list:
1) Varnam- amrithavarshini ragam- Ata thalam- Sahitya from the famous krithi 'Anananda amritavarshini'- composed by Shri.SRJ
2) Giriraja sudha- Bangala
3)KalAvati kamalasana yuvati- Kalavati ragam- Dikshitar kriti
4) Amba manam kaninDu- Banduvarali- R,S
5) KamaKshi- Bhairavi swarajati
6)Pahimam Sri Rajarajeshwari- Jana ranjani
7) Ambanadhunin- Thodi- R, N, S (Sub-main)
8)Kamalambam Bhajare- Kalyani (Main )-R,N,S, Thani
9)Palukute- Purandara kriti- Abheri(?):
10)Sakhi prana- Chenchurutti(?)
11Thillana - Behag
12) Thirupugazh
13) Mangalam

9)Palukute- Purandara kriti- Abheri(?): -Tallappakka annamacharya!!!!!