Is fusion the future ?

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 02 Dec 2009, 13:15

Considering that many topline musicians indulge in collaborating with Jazz, European Classical, Flamenco, European medieval chants.....you name it and it is there, is fusion or still the better sounding "collaborative" music the way forward for Carnatic music? Or is it an experimental and adventurous pastime and money on the sides kinda fun?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 02 Dec 2009, 14:38

Definitely not. At least as long as this one rasika is around...

(am sure the same holds for the multitudes of rasikas out there!)

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 02 Dec 2009, 16:33

I doubt.
Nothing to beat a traditional 3 hour concert from Sanjay,Tmk,Vijaysiva on any day and not even a
combination of themselves.

If this thread gets the attention of THE concerned, the argument will go on endlessly.

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 02 Dec 2009, 16:39

ragam-talam wrote:Definitely not. At least as long as this one rasika is around...
(am sure the same holds for the multitudes of rasikas out there!)

thank you sir.. not only rasikas, till we, the musicians exist...

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 02 Dec 2009, 16:41

lahari
The present mantra of 'Inter cultural Music' is another facet of World Music, gaining popularity. KM musicians also getting opportunities to show case their talents, globally. My only request and sincere appeal to all those KM musicians performing in such events, do not compromise easily with the values of KM for the sake of getting acceptance and support of other musicians of this genre. If this is sincerely kept up by KM musicians, KM with entertainment values will get Global boost and most welcome. The interest created can lead to many rasikas listening, learning, enjoying and supporting traditional KM.
munirao2001

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 02 Dec 2009, 18:40

True munirao, one result of this venture is an expansion of the audience to a global level.

I think it also matters to ask how and why the concept of fusion music came into existence. The validity of the causes may determine its longevity.

Though it might be farfetched at this time to visualise the future of our great Carnatic music and that too in terms of minor developments like fusion but music (which also has the tendency to be influenced by the economy of any state) may eventually be influenced by the modern trends of globalisation, corporatisation etc. Thus possibilities of the evolution of a contemporary branch of Carnatic music cannot be negated.

- L

Thirumale Balakrishna · Post by **Thirumale Balakrishna** » 02 Dec 2009, 18:58

We cannot ignore the fact there is lot of high calibre artists and competition among them to perform in various sabhas throught the world. It is a matter of survival for them. Everything boils down to dollars and cents. There is nothing wrong in them collaborating with other musicians to produce what people like. How many people in a traditional concert would understand the ragas and sahithyam. People show up for the sake of showing up. Some to just socialize!!!!!. We will have to accept the reality and see what is best for the artists.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Dec 2009, 22:53

At present (con)fusion appears to be the future!

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 03 Dec 2009, 09:08

Are we up against the very concept or the way it is implemented leading to cmlover's confusion?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 03 Dec 2009, 09:25

As Sri Munirao mentions, Carnatic music fusion with other music forms gives CM exposure at a global level. For example, the intricacies of our rhythms has hit the world stage due to fusion (led by artistes such as Umayalapuram Sivaraman in Aka Moon and TH Vinayakram in Shakti). Flowing from that we now see Western artistes performing konakkol as part of their rhythm shows. Ultimately this sort of exposure will lead to more people being curious about Carnatic music!

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 03 Dec 2009, 09:40

Our music definitely gets the exposure, no doubt !

But on the flipside, the lesser-known (in their music community) Western artists use our raga and tala intricacies for their fusion compositions and make a living. Mostly, (sparing top line bands) Western composers ( mostly ppl who couldnt make a mark in their music) use the 'different' melodic, modal and rhythmic concepts in their compositions, have a CM vocalist in their bands and perform fusion concerts. So, where does it leave our musicians? We dont seem to lead, rather be utilised. Is that ok?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 03 Dec 2009, 11:47

cmlover

Confusion in fusion is due to the confusion in the minds of the KM performer. Whether it is jugalbandi or fusion concerts, with very few exceptions, KM musicianÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s compromise and present KM form appealing to the genre. Other musicians, rarely compromise. May be some minor modifications or adaptations of KM introduced in their music.
I recall my listening experience of Pt Ravishankar in the Madras University Auditorium, with Ustad Allah Rakha and Great Maestro Palghat Raghu. High on my first love with Panditiji and Ustad's Tabla mastery, I was wondering why Palghat Raghu Sir accepted to play with unknown element of successful collaboration. My total ignorance and lack of knowledge of the mastery of Palghat Raghu struck me deep, when I listened to his mridangam playing, totally eclipsing Ustad. Ustad himself became a first rasika on stage! The quality of Palghat Raghu's playing was primarily due to his strict adherence to the KM sampradaya in mridangam playing and not trying to adopt the 'teka'style of Tabla.

lahari

In the beginning, when KM listening is not popular with western music listeners, KM musician has no choice to accept the position of accommodative collaborator, may be utilized. When the understanding and appreciation levels reach higher, KM musicians will prove second to none and lead. Maestros L.Shankar and L.Subramaniam have already set the trend and examples. Pt.Ravi Shankar played the lead role, after he/his music became popular with western audience. To hasten the process, KM Maestros should put in hard thinking, imagination and hard work to create compositions, with the best orchestration values adopted successfully, in KM. KM musicians groups/troupe-small or big in numbers, playing same pattern, with least of variety and color, is not helpful to the cause.
I am hopeful with the younger maestros, with better education, technology and its tools, resourceful, will find answers and take the challenging opportunity and succeed, in the near future. Beginning has been made. Await for the 'V' days, ahead.

munirao2001

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 03 Dec 2009, 15:44

The quality of Palghat Raghu's playing was primarily due to his strict adherence to the KM sampradaya in mridangam playing and not trying to adopt the 'teka'style of Tabla.

Whilst I appreciate your appreciation --- whether we call it fusion or jugalbandi, or whatever, there has to be give and take among the musicians, and true flexibility is what can make this "confusion" into real music. The other side of the coin is that I have seen fusion performances, and watched the mridangist, thinking, "he is just playing the standard carnatic repertoire", slotting it in, as it were. The fact that the mridangam repertoire may have been deeper or more complex than the tabla, or the rock, or jazz drummer on the stage, does not alter the fact that it is a plug in, not a fusion. I have seen very few performances of true fusion --- and they were astonishing.

Elsewhere, I have mentioned that just a little tekka playing on the tabla, for some reason, is enough to send a Western audience into a paroxysm of applause. There is another side to this coin --- I've seen the same kind of reaction from an Indian audience watching a western jazz drummer following a mridangist into tisra nadai. It is as if musicians from anywhere else in the world are considered, and expected to be, stupid; they are not, they, too, have spent years studying, practising and perfecting their art and technique. Furthermore, they have been fusing instruments and ideas from India, Africa, and other countries, into their music for decades.

I do not extend the 'not stupid' accolade to presenters and organisers. Whilst their idea of fusion (perhaps encouraged by the ticket buyers) is to pick a big name from the areas they are trying to 'fuse' and putting them on stage together, we will continue to see, not an musical art form, but a circus.

When musicians of different schools can come together and share, with the jazz musicians and the tabla playing mridangam compositions, the mridangam taking jazz and tabla ideas, and so on, then we will have fusion, and the result can be wonderful.

You are right: the KM musicians need to think long and hard about this --- but all the musicians need to put in that thought.

But the thread title: Is fusion the future ? --- No; it is no more the future for Carnatic classical than it is for any form of Western music. It is a different kind of music.

Chandrashekar · Post by **Chandrashekar** » 03 Dec 2009, 15:59

Lahari wrote:
But on the flipside, the lesser-known (in their music community) Western artists use our raga and tala intricacies for their fusion compositions and make a living. Mostly, (sparing top line bands) Western composers ( mostly ppl who couldnt make a mark in their music) use the 'different' melodic, modal and rhythmic concepts in their compositions, have a CM vocalist in their bands and perform fusion concerts. So, where does it leave our musicians? We dont seem to lead, rather be utilised. Is that ok?

Good point.
I had met a certain western "composer" in Sydney, who plays and "composes" Western classical music for the piano. I had played an Indian classical CD for him which he liked, and he heard from me with great surprise that the music he was hearing was not composed but was just created as the artistes played along.

Later he visited India, claiming interest in Indian music. Then I came to Bangalore, and he too landed up here, and was hosted by a well-known harmonium player who thought that he was helping a foreign rasika of Indian music.

We all went to a hindustani vocal concert together. While the singer was performing, I noticed that the "composer" sat quietly with head down, writing notes in a little notebook, showing no interest at all in the performance. He had come to India with the sole objective of collecting ideas that he could use for his own compostions, from the concerts as well as from picking people's brains here, all of which of course he would pass off as his own inspiration, to be presented with some exotic title like "Inspired Musings of a Wanderer" or something, and giving no credit at all to the real sources. I wouldn't be surprised if some day people around the world started saying we were copying their music.

Luckily, not every foreigner comes here with this objective, and some have done us a great service in bringing our treasures to the notice of the world--after which, of course, we will sit up and start patting ourselves on the back. I think it is unfortunate that we don't realise our own worth until someone from outside draws attention to it. Isn't it odd that even the online Samskrit dictionaries are by foreigners?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Dec 2009, 02:35

>"Inspired Musings of a Wanderer"

Good one!!

Yes, in some aspects we are still slaves to others' opinions of us.

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 04 Dec 2009, 11:12

munirao

I do agree with you. Just wondering and waiting to see what shape the whole thing will take.

To lead, our musicians have to go beyond the boundaries, be more versatile not only musically but also in performance and presentation. The next question, of course, would be what does versatility encompass. Clear understanding of the nature of KM, its scope and limitations (by limitations, i mean with respect to other music, read western music. If you ask me, i would fanatically say that KM has no limitations:-) integrate outside elements that can enhance KM (and the test here will be the most simple and the most complicated one, that is, pleasing to the ear !) qualitatively at the compositional level. Improve the technical skills, ie range for voice and instrumental skills and technique. Well....the list can go on and on. Quite some work too, eh?

Chandrashekar

The exotic title was a good improvisation

Not only do we not realise our worth but also that we donot take initiative. Its grounded in our upbringing and mindset. Elders tempering our thoughts and activities, of course with the good intention that we dont end up being arrogant takes a backseat when it comes to confidence and leadership. Wonder where the fine dividing line is or better still the balance !

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 04 Dec 2009, 11:14

Nick.H
Jugalbandi and fusion concerts are different in nature. Primary focus in Jugalbandi is to create awareness and beauty of two systems, each unique in its own way, resulting in appreciation and enjoyment of high quality of music/music system, in isolation and in unity. In Pandit Ravishankar's concert, Ustad Allah Rakha and Sangita Kalanidhi Palghat Raghu played separately each for one composition and later for the other compositions to-gather, culminating in Tani Avartanam (unique to KM) by both the Great Maestros playing according to their Bani and collaborating.
Fusion is at first; performers demonstrate the understanding, appreciation, demonstrate and offer shared ideas, with their perceptions of the best, in unison. Confusion arises only when, performers trying to imitate the other form/genre, creating doubts about the quality and uniqueness of their music/music system and richness. Musicians offering the same ideas, in different vocals or instruments. High quality in fusion can be achieved and offered only when the performers understanding and appreciation is at its best, the high quality and ideas in other music/music system and excellent adaptation and improvisation in their own music/music system, the qualities of collaborators music/music system.
With clarity on the goals and objectives, both the jugalbandi and fusion concerts, serve the cause of Music in kindling the interest, motivating to learn/listen much more seriously and in earnestness the unknown/unfamiliar forms of music, leaving aside the pride and prejudices on the systems. In long term, there would be more and more listeners and performers for the 'New' systems. KM will gain by better global acceptance and appreciation. The relative success of HM, thanks to the pioneering work of Pandit Ravi Shankar, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, Great Maestro Yehudi Menuhin and later other great musicians, stand testimony to this fact.

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 04 Dec 2009, 11:28

Chandrasekar,
'It is unfortunate that we don't realize our own worth until someone from outside draws attention to it'. This is attributed, in general to the colonial mentality- with Superiority and Inferiority complexes!
In reality, true values of enrichment of knowledge do not happen in isolation but, with acceptance of the other/others. On the flip side, it would be better to win others recognition, to avoid the temptation of dubious nature or quality of innovative/new knowledge claiming enrichment of knowledge.

munirao2001

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 04 Dec 2009, 13:15

nick H:

"When musicians of different schools can come together and share, with the jazz musicians and the tabla playing mridangam compositions, the mridangam taking jazz and tabla ideas, and so on, then we will have fusion, and the result can be wonderful. "

Idealistic scenario.

But coming together of two diagonally different music is not an easy task. No wonder, there is such a lot of confusion in the minds of the performers as well as listeners. Fusion is like a marriage. If the veg spouse is forced to eat meat by the non-veg spouse, its not easy to share. Certain aspects of the music too fall in the not-able-to share category. Like Mr. Munirao says, it requires a lot of understanding of both the music to be able to venture into a fusion.

"It is as if musicians from anywhere else in the world are considered, and expected to be, stupid; they are not, they, too, have spent years studying, practising and perfecting their art and technique. Furthermore, they have been fusing instruments and ideas from India, Africa, and other countries, into their music for decades. You are right: the KM musicians need to think long and hard about this --- but all the musicians need to put in that thought."

Well, with all due respect to all the music in the world and the musicians, its not that KM musicians think that other musicians are stupid. Its just the pride of KM musicians in their own music. KM has a wealth of ragas, talas, the concept of improvisation, long history of survival and development......something like an akshaya patram that is always replenished. That fills the musicians with pride and contentment. That's about it.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Dec 2009, 16:32

lahari, my remark was about audiences, rather than musicians. It will only be the most arrogant among musicians that does not respect his cousin from another culture.

I'm sure my scenario is idealistic --- hence I tend to avoid "fusion" concerts. Of course, that might mean it happens more often than I think! Certainly it does, and can happen.

munirao, jugalbandi has been under discussion in another thread recently. It is my understanding that the word means converation. Playing separately, albeit joining together for a bit at the end is not, to me, a conversation. I suspect that the jugalbandi, in this format, is another commercial invention, to maximise ticket sales to those who either want to get a sample of two flavours without having to sit through a whole meal of either, or want to tick off two, or more, big names seen for the cost of one concert ticket.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 05 Dec 2009, 10:20

Hope not

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 05 Dec 2009, 10:48

Nick.H,
Jugalbandi is 'bringing two streams, together'. In the music context, bringing HM and KM together. This was the idea and creation not for commercial exploitation. It originated with the decision taken by Producers of AIR, in All India Producers Conference. Dr.Keskar, first Union Minister for Information and Broadcasting of India, wanted to bring about 'Bharat Sangit' fusing seamlessly HM and KM, as one Indian System of Music. ProducerÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s conference, with eminent producers like GNB/SSRao/Voleti/Pt Ravishankar/Pt Pannalal Ghosh and few others recommending that the endeavor of AIR should be to bring understanding and appreciation of both the systems of IM and pave the way for continued growth of both the well developed and unique systems of IM, free from pride and prejudice. AIR did broadcast several Naional Programmes with this theme, where in one common raga was chosen and was delineated by HM and KM Maestros, separately. As per the original idea and innovation, jugalbandi is not a conversation but sincere attempts at conversion.
This idea took commercial out look, in the recent past, with the form of a mix of jugalbandi and fusion ideas, resulting in the opinion and coinage of 'fusion Confusion'!

munirao2001

Chandrashekar · Post by **Chandrashekar** » 05 Dec 2009, 14:35

munirao wrote:...This is attributed, in general to the colonial mentality- with Superiority and Inferiority complexes!...
In reality, true values of enrichment of knowledge do not happen in isolation but, with acceptance of the other/others...

How true. We are a complex mix, aren't we? One general classification for behaviour types is submissive, aggressive and assertive. Indian culture is largely either submissive or aggressive, depending on the situation; we are aggressive with those we perceive as "inferior" to us in some way, or when we think we can get away with such behaviour, and "submissive" with those we perceive as "superior", leading to a bully/coward dichotomy, while the Western culture encourages assertive behaviour, respecting others while expecting to be respected back.

One interesting example of aggressive/submissive behaviour in India is that between senior and junior students during ragging in colleges. The same submissive (cowardly) juniors of one year turn into aggressive (bullying) seniors the very next year. It is all about what one can get away with. (Here, let me hasten to add, I am talking about the majority culture; I don't state it as a universal fact. I know that there are, and have been, great people among us, of great character. But these are/were relatively small in number.)

...

Nick wrote:When musicians of different schools can come together and share, with the jazz musicians and the tabla playing mridangam compositions, the mridangam taking jazz and tabla ideas, and so on, then we will have fusion, and the result can be wonderful.

Nick, I suppose this could be one way to look at a fusion performance. I would say it may work well under certain circumstances, but maybe not under all. Granted, fusion artistes must have enough in common to demonstrate some common ground together, otherwise it might start to look like two unrelated shows were being held on one stage at the same time. At the same time, I think what munirao says is important for bringing out the best in the artistes and elevating the music overall. Maybe some parts of the performance would involve imitating one another's styles, but I think the main part would be where each of the artistes shows the strengths of their own styles. Much lies in the selection of the items. They must offer the scope required for such performance.

I would say this adherence to style is particularly relevant for our percussion. I think a mridangam player would be lowering himself by changing his style and resorting to simple and obvious beat cycles, landing with a loud bang on the samam for each and every cycle, and mindlessly stressing on speed of fingers the rest of the time, while grinning foolishly and bouncing his glossy hair at a delirious audience that is easily taken in by such gimmicry. While dazzling speed does have its place in our laya, there is much, much more to "real" Indian laya than mindless speed of fingerwork; much more to enjoy in an authentic well-rounded mridangam performance demonstrating many different challenging elements of complex and intriguing sound patterns and silences. Imagine if our only interest in Sachin Tendulkar were in how hard he could swing his bat in trying for a sixer and how far that ball would then go!

...

Lahari, VK: I'm also considering an alternative exotic title:
"Inspired Musings of an Intrepid Wanderer".

The "intrepid wandering" implies, among other things, heading boldly into far-off and unexplored regions in the musical universe, and is actually a sly way of not only just labelling oneself as a mighty trail blazer, but also implying subconsciously that any listener who cannot appreciate this music must be a bit of a coward. It's like the "Emperor's new clothes" story, where anyone who couldn't see those (non-existent) clothes was supposed to be stupid.
Feel free to use this title for any CDs you might be bringing out! You may find your CDs just flying off the store shelves, with people feeling compelled to buy them without knowing exactly why

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 05 Dec 2009, 18:33

Chandrashekar,

That is very funny

)

Mridangam is not tabla and table not mridangam. Speed of fingerwork in Tabla would sound very sweet much like the speed of footwork in Kathak but with Mridangam, that's surely out of place. Well, let me add this: bouncing glossy hair is totally out of question coz most of them would not have any, anyway

Churning out titles and improvising on them, i guess, is your forte.....

Coming back to fusion, Which sounds better? Carnatic-Jazz (wherein all the musicians stick to a theme, then improvise in their own styles and get back to the theme) or the recent Carnatic-Western classical fusion (with the likes of Raga Saga by Violin Narasimhan or the Raga symphony by Ravikiran etc)

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Dec 2009, 19:30

Thank you for that interesting history. A great intention, indeed!

Lahari... Which sounds better? Does either have to be the better one? I think your question points out very nicely that far from "fusion" being just one thing, it is a limitless number of possibilities.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Dec 2009, 19:49

I may have to withdraw my comment of confusion! Some very valuable ideas are coming here which sure clears the mist! I do hope Narasimhan and Ravikiran (and of course UKS) do read and participate in this thread who are the promise of the future CM Fusion World! I look for the time when CM is the main course with other genres seamlessly blended!

Chandrashekar · Post by **Chandrashekar** » 05 Dec 2009, 21:14

Lahari, I have actually not listened to any of those Carnatic Western fusion items or Ravikiran's symphony that you refer to. Any links to where I could view them?

I really couldn't tell which ones would be more interesting. One would have to try out different things and see what is enjoyable. The best ones will naturally survive and be in demand. It is not so much about the form of music as what one does with it. Most important is that each of the artistes involved are thoroughly competent at their own forms of music.

One general observation regarding Carnatic and Hindustani jugalbandhis: the artistes should not have the attitude of "senior and junior" and things like that. Everybody should be regarded as equal on stage at such events. The objective of this activity is to give the audience a good experience and allow them to enjoy both sides of the music. There should be no interrupting of one artiste by another because one of them perceives himself as the "senior" in some way. Artistes should not get so "absorbed" in themselves that they forget about the existence of the others and end up hogging the show. They must perform with full awareness of their environment at all times, and make sure the other parties get their turn equally. An artiste should not "politely give way out of respect for my big brother" and things like that, by stopping halfway and letting the other one hog the show. I was sorry to see this kind of behaviour from Balamurali Krishna during one jugalbandhi that I saw, where he sat almost hidden and simply kept giving way and allowed his own participation be relatively short. What is the point of the jugalbandhi then? He was letting down the program in the name of "respect" or whatever. Everyone must do their best to make sure that the audience gets the best of all sides, not just one or the other.

For recorded shows, the camera work should be competent. It seems camera operators have no idea how to use their cameras. When the violin is playing they will be showing the tanpura; when the mridangam is playing they will show the tabalchi sitting idly; when there is an interesting coordination activity or back-and-forth sawal-jawab type of exercise among the artistes, they will randomly switch the camera between artistes, or maybe focus on the tanpura player's face for a long time, with no idea of what is going on or what the viewer would like to really see.

The simple principle of what to point the camera at is: the camera must be looking at what a person sitting in a live audience would probably want to look at, at that moment. Also, the camera must not point at what the person would not want to look at. After all, the camera is meant to serve as the substitute eyes for people who could not be present at the live program.

For example, when the vocalist is singing, will the audience be looking at the tuning peg of the tanpura with their eyes crossed? No they won't. So, at this time, don't point your camera at the tuning peg of the tanpura, starting with a blurred and out-of-focus view, and then slowly bring it to focus, so that we will be taking a close look at a tanpura tuning peg for the next 15 seconds. Then, should the camera show only the performer's face? Or his hands playing? Or both his face and hands? If the mridangist is playing some interesting pattern, show his hands properly and not only his face. If you are not sure, show both hands and face to play it safe. If the mridangist is coordinating interestingly with the vocalist, show both performers in the same view, and not just one of them, and especially don't leave your camera pointing at a third party sitting idly and waiting for their turn. You can also zoom out at times and show more of the artistes or even everyone on stage together, especially at the "climax" points. Proper judgment can make the program more enjoyable. It's the details and little things that matter, as with lots of things in life. Don't just put anyone in charge of the camera. Put someone who knows and who cares.

Simple things like these matter much more than the forms of music selected.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Dec 2009, 23:52

So you would not suggest cutting in shots of far off temples, flowers on ponds, the moon, and idols somersaulting into full frame, then?

What a disappointment for the man on the mixing desk.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 06 Dec 2009, 00:08

nick H wrote:So you would not suggest cutting in shots of far off temples, flowers on ponds, the moon, and idols somersaulting into full frame, then?

What a disappointment for the man on the mixing desk.

In one of the temple inauguration celebrations, bollywood song and dance to that tune by kids along with a 99% punjabi orchestra singing the bhajan jai mAtA ki were the highlights as this needed to be done for public support and donation - may be fusion helps in making money - confusion continues with puritan rasikas.

Chandrashekar · Post by **Chandrashekar** » 06 Dec 2009, 10:10

Nick wrote:So you would not suggest cutting in shots of far off temples, flowers on ponds, the moon, and idols somersaulting into full frame, then?

Nick: Tempting, but I must most regretfully say "No". Not the dhobi washing clothes in a dirty pond; not the ragged child playing with marbles on a dusty street; not the cute puppies frolicking on the flower-strewn lawn; nor any others, priceless though these may be when the archives are dug up ten thousand years from now by future generations attempting to study the cultural treasures of these "ancient" times.

My simple rule is, stick to the show. Any time I want to see "languorous lambada lady on a seesaw", I have my web-enabled computer with 24/7 online access.

That talented mixer is of course free to take these "god-given skills" of his to the cricketing world. Let him show these things while Tendulkar is batting at 99 and facing the bowler. I would be very interested to see how the fans would take it.

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 06 Dec 2009, 12:47

chandrashekar:

You could look up the youtube for samples esp raga saga by narasimhan but for the album, you might have to buy them.

Raga saga is a violin quartet with Narasimhan playing the Carnatic songs in the lead and the other three (including a cello) playing supporting harmonies. Its quite mellifluous.

Chandrashekar · Post by **Chandrashekar** » 06 Dec 2009, 14:02

Lahari, thanks for the Raga Saga pointer. I see what you mean. I wonder what the Trinity would have thought about their compositions being presented in this way. I get the feeling the Carnatic part is the soul of the pieces while the other stuff forms the skeleton. I'm not too sure about the way of rendering it, though, especially with items like the Saaramati one. But it just goes to show what more is possible. Certainly seems to be a lot of potential there.

The unfortunate thing with this kind of fusion stuff is that it can be a safe refuge for a lot of mediocre performers whose mediocrity will be nicely masked by all those goings-on in the background. All one will need to do is memorise and render a few standard compositions, and you could be a "Vidwan" without having to display any creativity or originality or mastery over laya or sruthi.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 06 Dec 2009, 14:42

Ustad Abdul Karim Khan rendering 'rAma nI samAnamevaru':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp1-HgUVGNM

Sung in raga Kharaharapriya <=> Mishra Kafi

Is this fusion?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Dec 2009, 14:59

Chandrashekar wrote:That talented mixer is of course free to take these "god-given skills" of his to the cricketing world.

--- I wish we had a better "Rolling on The Floor Laughing" smiley!

Chandrashekar wrote:The unfortunate thing with this kind of fusion stuff is that it can be a safe refuge for a lot of mediocre performers whose mediocrity will be nicely masked by all those goings-on in the background. All one will need to do is memorise and render a few standard compositions, and you could be a "Vidwan" without having to display any creativity or originality or mastery over laya or sruthi.

I recall one such performance in which a younger member of one of the big music families played. My reflection was, "How sad: he probably wanted to be an engineer, but his family insisted on him being a musician"!

Chandrashekar · Post by **Chandrashekar** » 06 Dec 2009, 15:19

ragam-talam, that's another interesting performance. Thanks for posting.

Is it fusion? I would say that depends on how you would like to define fusion. This is just music taken from System A and adapted and rendered in System B in the style of a System B item. If you could ask him, he would probably say he was performing HM -- the shrutis and treatment of the notes, the characteristic slurring emphasising dhaatu over maatu even more, the music structuring, and others. (Any comments on the laya aspects of this item from the percussionists here?)

Our usual understanding of fusion is two or more artistes playing two or more forms of music together.

Otherwise, couldn't one also say that CM performed on the sax, mandolin, guitar, etc., is fusion music?

Any other views?

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 06 Dec 2009, 19:15

Two itself is too much

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 06 Dec 2009, 23:36

Chandrashekar wrote:Lahari, thanks for the Raga Saga pointer. I see what you mean. I wonder what the Trinity would have thought about their compositions being presented in this way. I get the feeling the Carnatic part is the soul of the pieces while the other stuff forms the skeleton. I'm not too sure about the way of rendering it, though, especially with items like the Saaramati one. But it just goes to show what more is possible. Certainly seems to be a lot of potential there.

The unfortunate thing with this kind of fusion stuff is that it can be a safe refuge for a lot of mediocre performers whose mediocrity will be nicely masked by all those goings-on in the background. All one will need to do is memorise and render a few standard compositions, and you could be a "Vidwan" without having to display any creativity or originality or mastery over laya or sruthi.

Chandrashekar, I am not a big fan of fusion either, but as carnatic rasikas, it is easy to overlook the skills involved in such creative efforts that is out of the beaten path. Though it is true that individual mediocrity can be covered up, great creative skills are needed to package up complicated stuff and make that into an accessible form for a wider population of music rasikas.

You are quite right that singing a few songs well by those who have good voice culture, timbre and modulations ( whether it is in such fusion efforts or in film music ) do not make them anything in the mainstream CM field.

Side bar: While we rightfully bemoan the mismatch between intrinsic quality of music and audience attendance and appreciation, we also need to brainstorm about what one can do to change that. There is stuff that can be done without reducing the quality of the music. Sometimes the serious rasikas are a big impediment to bringing in rasikas from the circle. In fact, the right people to ask for ideas are probably not (yet) members of this forum.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Dec 2009, 00:36

If our ears and sensations tell us that the music we are hearing is good, then why overstretch and ask "is it because the person is talented or is his/her mediocrity is being masked by things going on in the background"?

IMHO, we have to realize that this high horse that we think we are on is in reality a completely made-up one. In reality, we aren't that special, as rabid fans of any genre is going to ride that same imaginary high horse. Mediocrity and excellence are perceptions, which are colored by one's own preferences. Hence, if we take the sum of preferences of all music listeners all over, then mediocrity and excellence are ubiquitous in all forms - including our own carnatic music.

Arun

Chandrashekar · Post by **Chandrashekar** » 07 Dec 2009, 11:25

vk wrote:You are quite right that singing a few songs well by those who have good voice culture, timbre and modulations ( whether it is in such fusion efforts or in film music ) do not make them anything in the mainstream CM field."

VK, when I used the word "mediocre", I was definitely not thinking of people with good voice culture, timbre or modulations. Let me state that I think these are great assets for musicians, and I would not regard someone as "mediocre" if they had these qualities, unless the rest of their abilities were atrociously bad and ruined the overall effect of the performance.

In fact, I think it would be a great idea for many of our own singers to develop and improve their voices too through voice culture exercises. (I know I have just attacked one of the most sacred of our sacred cows, but that's the truth

There are many voice culture and training programs that Western musicians follow, which can extend one's voice range and improve the quality, and can also protect the vocal cords from damage due to wrong practices. Really, why do our vidwans need to struggle embarrassingly to span two octaves and sing with scratchy voices? Is it a matter of pride for us to say that our skills should be only "god given" and it goes against our culture to make any improvements on our own?
I have nothing against a person who has tried and failed; my only complaint is that someone will not even try. Such a person is taking his audience for granted.

What makes so many people want to attend concerts by Jesudas when purists are complaining about his lack of shruti shuddham?
Isn't there a lesson here for the rest of us? That a great voice can be a great attraction?
No. We adopt a very illogical attitude. We will say someone is a great artiste, very creative and talented, with great shruti and laya gnyana, etc, and then complain that people don't attend his programs, talking about donkeys not appreciating camphor, etc. And we will also say people should not care about his scratchy voice when he has all these other wonderful things. We will ask, after all, did Musiri have a sweet voice? Did Ariyakudi? Didn't people listen to them? And so on.
These are meaningless arguments. Comparisons should be meaningful. One cannot compare something in 1960 with something in 2000.
Instead of all these armchair arguments, maybe that genius with the scratchy voice and limited vocal range should try some voice culture and see if that makes a difference.

arunk wrote:If our ears and sensations tell us that the music we are hearing is good, then why overstretch and ask "is it because the person is talented or is his/her mediocrity is being masked by things going on in the background"?

arunk, that is an unfounded assumption regarding what I said or did not say.
Where did I say that I was calling some music mediocre when my ears and sensations told me it was good? Why would I want to do that?

arunk wrote: Mediocrity and excellence are perceptions, which are colored by one's own preferences.

Do you really believe that? Will this statement stand up consistently to other logical arguments: for example, can we say that critics have no business to write critiques?

Would you say that a musician who frequently plays wrong notes and also gets the taala wrong is no different from one who is perfect in both shruti and laya? Would you consider both to be equally excellent/mediocre, and "get off your high horse" and attend both concerts equally? I seriously doubt it.

vk wrote:While we rightfully bemoan the mismatch between intrinsic quality of music and audience attendance and appreciation, we also need to brainstorm about what one can do to change that. There is stuff that can be done without reducing the quality of the music.

Certainly, we can do things like brainstorming. But, there is one problem: most of us are not equipped with the right thinking tools to find good solutions.

Let me explain. We all assume that we can all think well, just as we can all breathe. But then we have special breathing techniques called Pranayama, which is a way of breathing with specific objectives of improving our health. Similarly there exist special thinking techniques to help us arrive at decisions and solve problems effectively and efficiently. These are not obvious techniques, just as Pranayama techniques are not obvious. They also have differences from our usual thinking, just as Pranayama differs from our usual breathing.

Our current tools are mostly limited to arguments "for" and "against", just like we know how to breathe "in" and "out". That's all we have seen, in our school debates, etc. One side wins, the other loses.

"For and against" debates can work well in certain situations. But in others they are woefully inadequate, even inimical to good results. Because, they are not about finding the best answers. They are about "one side is right and the other side is wrong". Usually the loudest mouth wins here. Each side deliberately overlooks the good points on the other side because they would weaken his own case. The objective becomes to "win", not to get the best solution.

One of the foremost thinkers of our times, Edward De Bono (not the musician De Bono), has come up with lots of thinking tools that are today being used by many organisations very successfully. For those who may not be aware, it was he who coined the term "lateral thinking" and developed that tool for the first time.

I would strongly recommend his very simple book, "The Six Thinking Hats", for anyone who wishes to find good solutions to this fusion issue. (This should be available very cheaply with the footpath sellers.)

Once you have mastered the concepts of the six thinking hats, you will start looking beyond just what "is" or "is not", at what "can be", which is when creative ideas start to blossom.

Let us raise our discussions to a much higher level and make them more efficient and effective with more thinking tools at our disposal. I will be very glad to continue on this topic once we are all speaking the same language and holding sufficient tools for a fruitful discussion

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 07 Dec 2009, 15:40

Chandrashekar:

I wld agree with arunK here, "If our ears and sensations tell us that the music we are hearing is good, then why overstretch and ask "is it because the person is talented or is his/her mediocrity is being masked by things going on in the background"?

Edward De Bono's book about lateral thinking is what one gets exposed to in colleges. Sure, lateral thinking is more important than plain "for and against" kind of thinking. But the question is when to stop thinking and especially when it comes to music. How to sharpen the ears, listen and discriminate and our sensations that go beyond the concept of thinking. Thinking and ways of thinking is not all. Isn't music about feelings and sensitive listening... or in tamil, rasikkaradu?

The very reason why I raised the question earlier about which music sounding better because I felt that one can respect music not by thinking about it and asking analytical questions but simply by learning to listen and discriminate. Good music simply strikes the heart. There is no explanation or analysis.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Dec 2009, 00:04

If we enjoy the music, we do not enquire into the mediocrity of the performers, even if it is there! If we do not, then we can look for reasons to both explain our lack of pleasure and communicate to others.

Even we can analyse the good too; that is an optional extra.

The danger is letting our personal dogma get between us and what we might have enjoyed.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Dec 2009, 01:19

Chandrasekar:

I was mainly reacting to this

The unfortunate thing with this kind of fusion stuff is that it can be a safe refuge for a lot of mediocre performers whose mediocrity will be nicely masked by all those goings-on in the background. All one will need to do is memorise and render a few standard compositions, and you could be a "Vidwan" without having to display any creativity or originality or mastery over laya or sruthi.

I interpreted your use of 'mediocre' in this context to be one who memorizes and rendres a few standard compositions without displaying any creativity in the laya or sruthi level. Mediocre in the carnatic vidwan context. I am willing to go with that definition for this purpose but I am pointing out that the one who is putting the fusion effort together with such singers may exhibit creativity at other levels.
Anyway, I now understand you are not necessarily referring to that.

Yes, if someone sings with mistakes in laya or sruthi, that would be mediocre and I took that as a given.

Regarding improving voice culture/instrument culture, I agree that our vidwans can definitely learn. As a minor example, for my flute playing, no one taught me techniques on how to produce a nice tone. Girish pointed to a youtube link of a western flute teacher. She demonstrated a practicing technique ( making vocal sounds in parallel to flute sounds ) to relax the mouth. ( http://rasikas.org/forums/post145558.html#p145558 ). I tried that and the results were incredible. After 5 minutes of getting a hang of it and practising that exercise technique, I can hear the tone improving quite a bit. I was quite pleasantly surprised. I did not have to do anything different during normal flute play, it just was better because the prior exercise automatically relaxed the various muscles in the mouth. She also talks about two different ways of making sounds and different tonguing techniques. I have not tried them yet. It looks very promising.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Dec 2009, 01:28

Also, thanks for the reference to "Six Thinking Hats". I read up about it on the internet. It is pretty good. I guess we do some of it some of the times. Being aware of it and learning to use them a bit more rigorously should help in many areas that we all are involved in. Now I know why you referred to this technique when I mentioned "brain storming". Thanks.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Dec 2009, 14:22

Mediocre --- a sort of medium, brownish-yellow, complexion?

Oh... sorry, that's mediochre!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 08 Dec 2009, 14:56

Is fashion the future? Definitely.

(oops, it's fusion...kinda the same thing?

)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Dec 2009, 19:57

Nick
Did you mean mediogre

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 08 Dec 2009, 20:02

VK
..so that was the secret in the dramatic rise in quality in your latest bhairavi efforts!
No doubt the encounter with other music genres will improve and innovate the technical quality of CM. That is indeed a bonus!
For example Demosthenes who was a born stammerer was told to put pebbles in his mouth while talking and he became the greatest orator of his times!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Dec 2009, 21:42

CML... I concede to your trump card

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Dec 2009, 22:22

CML, I think the technique helped with what you noticed. Thanks for noticing that, it is good feedback. I think that technique reduces the airy/wispy sound from the overall sound.

girish_a · Post by **girish_a** » 08 Dec 2009, 22:36

VK, I'd like to hear the Bhairavi...Can you post the link?