Jathi count

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 06 Dec 2009, 01:49

Hi,

I have just started practicing nattuvangam on my own as I am not dancing now and I am presently in the US. Can somebody help me and tell me how to count the total in a jathi.

Eg. I have aadhi talam in the jathi

Tha Dhit Thaka Na jhom thari tha;(mean 2 karvai)
thaka dhit thaka naka jhom thari thai;

what is the count in Vilambham(1st speed)
Madyamam(2nd speed) and
Drutham (3rd speed)

Also can anybody pls. how I can learn nattuvangam on my own. I did not find any teacher here in my place who teaches nattuvangam.

Is there any cd or book which would teach me from the basic and help me learn better.

Kindly help.

aatma · Post by **aatma** » 06 Dec 2009, 13:55

Hi,

as of my limited knowledge am mentioning here the count. In vilambam - 32 (total count)

in 2nd speed its - 64(toatal count) & in the 3rd speed the total should be 128count. ie: you have to

chant the jathis until the count reaches its numbers. its better you approach a Mridangam artit.

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 08 Dec 2009, 03:01

Hi,

Can anybody tell me this:

Tha ka thakita can be tapped 5 times in Thadinginathom solkattu (which is 6 in number)

How I calculated this is:

Thaka thakitha is 5 in count. If we have to fit that in Thadinginathom solkattu I multiplied 5*6= 30/6 is 5 times. Hence I think we have to tap thaka thakita 5 times. hope i am correct. kindly correct and tell me how to fit this.

thanks in advance

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Dec 2009, 03:40

If Thadinginathom is 6, thakathakita being 5, yes, it will take 6 repetitions to get back in sync with Thadinginathom

But why is Thadinginathom 6? I count 5, are you assuming a silence at the end?

To avoid confusion in the elementary matters:

Can someone write down the various syllables used and the time duration of each one of them? Then it will be quite clear.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 08 Dec 2009, 05:08

The book by David Nelson
Solkattu Manual: an introduction to the rhythmic language of South Indian music, book with 2-DVD set, published by Wesleyan University Press July, 2008
may be of use. It is available on Amazon and Book Depository websites

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 08 Dec 2009, 20:36

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. As requested earlier I would like to know how we calculate. I am not sure if I have understood the calculation properly.

Going by the same method:

How do we fit thakathimi(4 count) in Thadeenginathom(6count).
4*6=24/6 is 4 but it is wrong because if we tap thakathimi 3 times it would fit in Thadeenginathom.

So i don't think we could calculate it this way. there must be another way of calculating. can anybody help me with this.

thanks in advance.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 08 Dec 2009, 22:30

laya2:

You did not answer why you are treating thadhimginathom as 6 instead of 5.

Anyway, answering your calculation question, find the least common multiple (LCM) and not the simple multiplication of the two counts.

I know it is all elementary but let me lay it out here for completeness.

The least common multiple (LCM) of two numbers is the smallest number (not zero) that is a multiple of both.

Multiple of 3: 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27 etc

Multiple of 4: 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28 etc

Look from the left on both rows and locate the first number that is in both rows. That is your Least Common Multiple. In this case it is 12.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 08 Dec 2009, 22:47

you did not answer why you are treating thadhimginathom as 6 instead of 5.

He clarified

Thadeenginathom

ie Tha Dhi , Ghi Na Thom --- tisra thadiginathom.

But I still don't understand his questions.

Laya2, are you saying how many times to beat 4 to make it fit into a six-beat cycle?

Generally, the Thadhiginathom solakattus (oh! is that the right word? It just came out of my fingers!) are not used to denote cycles, but to denotes units of 5 ( or 3, 6, 6 or 9) within other calculations.

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 09 Dec 2009, 00:43

Hi Vasanthakokilam,

Thanks a lot for the reply. Thanks a lot to Nick for correcting. It is Thadeenginathom(hence 6 count)

But I am still not able to understand. pls. clarify. What do i take this 12 for? I think I should get 3 right?

thakadimi is 4 count and it has to be tapped 3 times right to fit into thandeenginathom. does that mean that i divide 12/4 to get that 3?

is my understanding right? or pls. clarify.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Dec 2009, 04:37

laya2: You are correct.

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 09 Dec 2009, 04:50

Hi vasanth thanks a lot.

For a jathi that I have this is the Solkattu. When I count the jathi I get the count as 240 but when I count the solkattu i get only 239. I don't know what is mistake that I make. it is like this:

thakadimi(4)
T,ddt(4)

Thai, Thaihathaihi thaihathaihi (2)

thakathakitha(4) - repeated twice
thakitha(5) - repeated twice
thayathaihi ddt ddt ddt - repeated twice
ttt ddt(3) - repeated twice

thakathakitha(4)
thakathakitha(3)
tha,ka,tha,ki,tha
,ttddt(3)

can anybody help me?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Dec 2009, 05:45

I do not even want to consider getting in there since I do not understand your notation. I need something simple and clear that spells out clearly what the duration of each solkattu is, what the meaning of a comma is, space is, semicolon is and what your ttt, ddt etc mean. Until then you can not really validate anyone's count. And this is the simplest of matters once you adopt a standard convention.

See if these two help you get oriented:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1yN96ZDGm8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTUsie_uP6w

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 09 Dec 2009, 06:24

VK, If I understand correctly, I think this is the convention:

t=tai
d=dhit

So, ddt = dhitdhit tai (count of 2, right?)
tddt would be tai dhitdhit tai (count of 3, right?)
ttddt = tai tai dhitdhit tai (count of 4, right?)

A comma should be a kArvai (silent beat)...

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 09 Dec 2009, 08:46

Hi,

Shankar you are right. thanks.

A comma is a karvai.

I would like to get the count of the solkattu that I had mentioned.

Mentioning it again. I get the count as 239 whereas the jathi count is 240.

thakadimi(4)
T,ddt(4)

Thai, Thaihathaihi thaihathaihi (2)

thakathakitha(4) - repeated twice
thakitha(5) - repeated twice
thayathaihi ddt ddt ddt - repeated twice
ttt ddt(3) - repeated twice

thakathakitha(4)
thakathakitha(3)
tha,ka,tha,ki,tha
,ttddt(3)

thanks.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Dec 2009, 19:33

Is this your own composition, or are you trying to understand something that you have heard and need explanation?

Is it for dance? Oh, silly me... I just saw which forum you have posted in, of course it is

What do the numbers in brackets mean?

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 09 Dec 2009, 19:40

Hi Nick,

It is not my own composition, but I had it with me. The number in brackets means it is said twice, thrice or 4 or 5 times. In the solkattu I have mentioned as repeated twice means the whole of it mentioned like that is repeated twice. I hope I am able to convey clearly.

Look forward to a reply.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 10 Dec 2009, 10:44

Thanks Ravi. Based on what you said "So, ddt = dhitdhit tai (count of 2, right?)", I infer dhit is half. True?

Laya2, What are you asking us to verify? Count what you have provided and check if it comes to 239 or 240?

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 10 Dec 2009, 22:58

Hi

I haven't been able to find an answer for that. When I count the jathi it is 240 and when I count the solkattu it is 235. I had taken this T,ddt(4)
ddt as 3 count hence got 239. however the count should be 240 and i don't know why i amn't getting that.

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 10 Dec 2009, 23:10

Hi

I have another question related to a jathi:

The jathi is in Roopaka thalam and the count that I get is 66. However you can also tell me if the count is same. The jathi is like this:

Thatdhim nuthadhimi thahata jamthari
Thatdhim nuthadhimi thahata jamthari

Dharitha dhanatha jonutha dhimitha

Thakadhim nuthadimi thahata jamthari
Thatdhim nuthadimi thahata jamthari

Dharitha danatha jonutha dhimitha

Thatdhim nuthadimi thahata jamthari
Thakundari kitathaka

Thakadhim nuthadimi thahata jamthari
Thakundari kitathaka

Thatdhim nutadimi tha thakita jam
thakadhim nutadhimi tha thakita jam

thadhim nutadimi thakadim nutadimi

Thadeenginatham
Thadinginathom

Thaka Thadeenginathom
thaka thadinginathom

thaka thiku thadeenginathom
thaka thiku thadinginathom

As I had mentioned earlier I am trying to learn nattuvangam all by myself and hence I saw this jathiswaram on youtube and I copied the jathi and try making some steps

For the above jathi the count that I got with the thalam is 66

I tried framing steps for that

Eg: for dharitha dhanatha jonutha dhimitha if i have steps like thakitha thakitha thakitha thakitha then the count for each thakitha is 3 or how should i take the count. Because if i take it as 3 count for each thakitha then i don't think i would get the count that i am supposed to get for dharitha dhanatha jonutha dimitha because the count for dharitha dhanatha jonutha dhimitha is 4(hope i am correct).

Pls. help me understand.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Dec 2009, 00:04

Please help us understand!

First you must define your terms: 66 what?

66 * 3 is 198, which is probably about right, so 66 cycles or avartanas. What you have above, seems to me to be 191, but add a few karvais and stuff, it will, probably come to 198 pulses. Please do not assume that any syllable (apart from dheem, we've sorted that out between us, although I would still prefer the , ) is two or more pulses. Use ,.

Most people will understand ThaDhim to be two pulses and ThaKaDhim to be three. However, in the composition above, I feel that it is two, with taka at one pulse. It must be underlined if it is at second speed. The forum does not have a double underline, so we are stumped for third speed!

You say you saw it on You-tube. Give us the link, and the time of the example. There are many people here (not me, I'm afraid, it would take me a little longer) who could sort out the notation in a jiffy!

dharitha dhanatha jonutha dhimitha is 4(hope i am correct)

N, it is 3. When in doubt count the syllables: there are twelve. Do not count what you are maybe perceiving as words, "dharitha" "dhanatha" "jonutha" "dhimitha".

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 11 Dec 2009, 00:14

Hi

Let me tell you that I have not learnt music but i would know certain basic things which would help me understand the thalam.Rupaka thalam is beat twice and then turn(which i think is count 6)

Rupaka thalam is 6 count right? So when i counted the jathi with talam i got it 11 times. So I multiplied that with 6 hence got 66 for the above jathi.

Let me first clear this and then proceed with the other things that i have asked. pls. clarify

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 11 Dec 2009, 00:17

Hi Nick,

This is the link for the youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xec-01qa ... re=related

I don't think there was any karvai in the jathi. pls. clarify

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Dec 2009, 00:50

nb... just came back and saw your post re You-Tube, so I haven't seen it, but try this on for size:

||Thatdhim nuthadhimi thahata jamthari

||Thatdhim nuthadhimi thahata jamthari

||Dharitha dhanatha jonutha dhimitha

||Thakadhim nuthadimi thahata jamthari

||Thatdhim nuthadimi thahata jamthari

||Dharitha danatha jonutha dhimitha

||Thatdhim nuthadimi thahata jamthari

||Thakundari kitathaka

Thakadhim nutha||dimi thahata jamthari

Thakundari ||kitathaka

Thatdhim nutadimi tha tha||kita jam ,

thakadhim nutadhimi tha tha||kita jam ,

thadhim nutadimi thaka||dim nutadimi

Thadhi , ginatham
Thadinginathom ||,

Thaka Thadhi , ginathom
thaka tha||dinginathom ,

thaka thiku thadhi , ||ginathom
thaka thiku thadinginathom

I'm no expert, and it is quite likely I made a silly mistake with numbers, because I'm not very good at them, but we can both learn if someone else corrects us

and I enjoyed trying!

Please note that I have used the || symbol throughout to denote the beginning of a tala cycle. If you do this, you give yourself anchor points from which you can easily re-start your counting!

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 11 Dec 2009, 00:58

Hi Nick,

Thanks. But I don't think we can do it that slow. Infact i get two complete beats only when i finish

Thatdhim nuthadhimi thahata jamthari
Thatdhim nuthadhimi thahata jamthari

Dharitha dhanatha jonutha dhimitha

is there any other way we could clarify this. we have to correct it someway and understand. how else can we understand.

your suggestions pls.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Dec 2009, 01:10

Whoa!

I just listened, and I don't think what I wrote bears any resemblance to the real thing! <blush>

You're way ahead of me.

I'd have to slow the recording down to half or a quarter before I could start trying to work out the notation. I'll post if I get anywhere.

Respect to you for trying to sort out and understand this stuff, but I really do suggest you sign up for mridangam class first, and natavangam after that

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 11 Dec 2009, 01:16

Hey Nick,

I am serious. I am not interested in that. It is not that all who have learnt nattuvangam have learnt mridangam. I am really interested in nattuvangam and there isn't anybody here in my place to teach that. I think i should learn on my own. can you pls. check with your friends on this count and let me know.

If nobody answers in this forum there is no way i would get an answer. you help is greatly appreciated.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Dec 2009, 01:40

Towards this effort, I slowed the tempo of the jathi portion down by 30% so you or Nick can write it down. Anything slower, artifacts are introduced affecting clarity.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/5b715dea-3ce0 ... tSlowSpeed

http://www.sendspace.com/file/0ky64w

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 11 Dec 2009, 02:03

Hi

I am unable to open this site. Also can you pls. help me with an answer. correct me if i am wrong:

each beat is 2 count. I am not able to tell you in any technical terms. I haven't learnt music so would write to you in a layman's term. I beat twice and then turn(this I assume is 1 avartanam for rupaka talam). So I got this 11 times for this jathi.

Sinc rupaka talam is 6 count 11 * 6 is 66 count. I hope i am able to convey clearly.

I tried framing steps for the jathi that I mentioned:

Eg: for dharitha dhanatha jonutha dhimitha if i have steps like thakitha thakitha thakitha thakitha then the count for each thakitha is 3 or how should i take the count. Because if i take it as 3 count for each thakitha then i don't think i would get the count that i am supposed to get for dharitha dhanatha jonutha dimitha because the count for dharitha dhanatha jonutha dhimitha is 4(hope i am correct).

Look forward to a reply.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Dec 2009, 02:05

Mridangam... not to play the instrument, particularly, but because a mridangam teacher will teach you all the basics, from zero, of carnatic rhythm, of tala ans so on, whereas I would have thought a natavangam teacher would expect you to know that. If you choose a mridangist teacher who plays for dance, then he will also understand your requirements. Many dancers go to mridangam class!

I've listened a few times. I can tell you that your ending is wrong. That Thadheemghinatom stuff is actually TD,GNT (do you follow my shorthand?) all the way, not TD, GNT TDGNT. Just the first time is first speed and the second is second speed like

Tha Dhi , Ghi Na Tom
Tha Dhi , Ghi Na Tom

Tha Ka Tha Dhi , Ghi Na Tom
Tha Ka Tha Dhi , Ghi Na Tom

Tha Ka Dhi Ku Tha Dhi , Ghi Na Tom
Tha Ka Dhi Ku Tha Dhi , Ghi Na Tom

I think the jathi takes twelve 3-beat cycles, starting on the second beat of the first of those cycles ...

Thanks, VK for the help. I have software both to record what my PC is playing, and to edit and change the tempo. In fact I have made a loop.

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 11 Dec 2009, 02:19

Nick,

Is there a better way for us to communicate now so that we could clear it. I think i am not able to understand this when we exchange messages. Is there a forum where we can talk and clear our doubts.

I may sound stupid but i think this is the only way for me to clear my doubts.

I don't know of any mridangam play also who would help me here.

help needed.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Dec 2009, 02:32

Is there a forum This one!

But hey, it is good for rusty brain to have a go at this, but I can't promise at all to keep it up: I'd be going to lessons if I could!

It starts something like this...

_ Tha Lang, Tha taka Dhiku Taka TDGNT ,
Tha , Dhi , Thaka Dhimi Tha ,
Taka Jam , tari, Dheem Thaka Dhimi Tha

Now, You'll have to excuse me... I'm having huge sleeping problems, not with the amount, but with the timing (7.00am to 2.00pm today) and I have to stop counting, and slow my brain down with the idea of a 3.00am bedtime

ganeshpv · Post by **ganeshpv** » 11 Dec 2009, 04:50

Here it is the way I heard it:

total of 132 beats (I count in double speed to make it easier so 132 beats). This is in roopaka tala (6 beats). It fits.

Thaddinuthadimi thahathajomthari (8 beats)
thakadhinuthadimi thahatha jomthari (8 beats)
tharritha thanatha jonutha dimitha (2 * 4 = 8 beats)

Thakadinuthadimi thahathajomthari (8 beats)
thaddhinuthadimi thahatha jomthari (8 beats)
tharritha thanatha jonutha dimitha (2 * 4 = 8 beats)

Thaddinuthadimi thahathajomthari, tharikitathaka ( 8 + 1 + 3 = 12 beats)
Thakadinuthadimi thahathajomthari, tharikitathaka ( 8 + 1 + 3 = 12 beats)

thaddinuthadimi tha, thakitajam ( 4 + 1 + 1+ 2 = 8 beats)
thakadinuthadimi tha, thakitajam ( 4 + 1 + 1 + 2 = 8 beats)

thaddinuthadimi thakadinuthadimi (4 + 4 = 8 beats)

thaddin, ginathom thadinginathom (6 + 3 = 9 beats)
tha ka thaddin, ginathom thaka thadinginathom (2 + 6 + 1 + 3 = 12 beats)
tha ka di ku thaddin, ginathom thaka diku thaddinginathom (4 + 6 + 2 + 3 = 15 beats)

so total of 24 + 24 + 12 + 12 + 8 + 8 + 8 + (9 + 12 + 15) = 132 beats.

Hope this helps.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Dec 2009, 15:25

It would be grand if you could add , for karvais and indicate 2nd speed?

The trouble with writing notation is thatunlessthatismadeclearitisonlyobvioustothepersonwhowroteit.

If you see what I mean

ganeshpv · Post by **ganeshpv** » 11 Dec 2009, 23:51

Ha ha Nick. point noted. There are no other karvais besides what I noted above. What I can do is break everything into one beat words (like tha ddin nutha dimi... where each word is one beat). In this jathi everything is in same speed. So no need of using bars to indicate different speeds.

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 12 Dec 2009, 01:24

Hi Ganesh,

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it. Could you pls tell me how you split this. Is there something available online. I understand the 2nd speed but how should we do if we have to do it in the 1st or the 3rd speed. can you pls. explain.

thanks for your help

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Dec 2009, 01:27

Curious... I heard numerous karvais, you can see five in my fragment

Tha , Dhi , Thaka Dhimi Tha ,
Taka Jam , tari, Dheem Thaka Dhimi Tha.

I guess it is very personal, what one finds easier to understand and learn, but I prefer to have these things written in a way that (at least for me) invokes how one would say it. One can then superimpose || and | marks for cycle and half cycle to help with the counting and teh intelectual understanding --- and also, if one is not blessed with perfect laya (mine is very imperfect) to help in the process of putting the tala whilst saying

Didn't have time to look today...

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 12 Dec 2009, 01:45

Hi Ganesh,

if tharritha thanatha jonutha dimitha (2 * 4 = 8 beats) and if we plan to fit thakitha thakita thakitha thakitha in this it wold be 12 count right(thakitha is 3 count each right)

or what is the count of thakitha in 1st, 2nd and 3rd speed

ganeshpv · Post by **ganeshpv** » 12 Dec 2009, 03:57

Nick, Karvai is not personal.

Karvai is a silence of one beat or more. "," = one beat. ";" = 2 beats. Yes, it is customary to use "|" and "||" for 1/2 avarthanam and full avarthanam. You can do that easily in my notation above. For every 6 beats put a "|" and for every 12 put "||". I actually meant the bars (line above words) to denote speed. There is no need of that here since entire Korvai is in same speed.

Laya2, we can't say thakita is 3 beats or one betas or how many ever beats without giving the context. It depends on speed, nadai etc. In Thisra nadai 'thakita' could be one beat. But I will assume you meant "tha ki ta" = 3 beats. It's hard to fit that into above 'Tharritha thanattha jonuttha dimittha' because each of those are 2 * 4 beats. You could do "di thai" (2 beats) 4 times like the dancer in video does. Or do "didithai" (2 beats) 4 times. Or 'tha ka di mi' (4 beats) twice.

laya2 · Post by **laya2** » 12 Dec 2009, 08:38

Hi Ganesh,

Thanks for your mail. This was the context from the jathi:

if tharritha thanatha jonutha dimitha (2 * 4 = 8 beats) and if we plan to fit thakitha thakita thakitha thakitha in this it wold be 12 count right(thakitha is 3 count each right)

When you say it depends on the speed I ask the same question, what is "thakita" in 2nd speed(because the jathi is in the 2nd speed) and why should we talk about nadai here.

Just as the dancer does this in this jathi for "tharitha thanatha jonutha dimitha"( i think you saw the step for this tharitha..) I think thakitha thakitha is done like that and we can also assume "di thai di thai" 4 times.

I think somebody had mentioned somewhere in the forum that we can find the nadai from the jathi. Since you have mentioned about nadai here I would like to ask that question. How do we find that from the jathi?

Ganesh: I was looking forward to reply for my previous question(pls. see above). Can you pls. explain.

Could you pls tell me how you split this. Is there something available online. I understand the 2nd speed but how should we do if we have to do it in the 1st or the 3rd speed. can you pls. explain.

pls. clarify.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Dec 2009, 10:00

Laya2... Can you listen to this piece and put talam from beginning to end?

If you can do this, you need ask no questions about counts! If you cannot, then my "homework! is to do so, and then ask more questions.

The trouble is that, out of context we cannot take your questions. What is thakita in second speed? It is the same as it is in first speed, only faster!

if tharritha thanatha jonutha dimitha (2 * 4 = 8 beats)

Can you put talam to that? I think it is one cycle of rupaka talam? There is your count. 4*3=12. 3*4 also equals 12, so you can see it is one cycle. That is saying it as tharrithathanathajonuthadimitha, just for illustration, although it makes it unreadable, to emphasise that there are no gaps.

Where are you? If you cannot go to class to learn, then maybe you can get some books. Do you learn dance? Your dance teacher should be able to help you. You cannot learn basics like this from a forum, because nobody here can teach in a structured way (well, they can; we have professionals on the forum, but probably it is not the place for it). You have to learn this stuff within a structure.

By the way, I recorded the first couple of minutes of the music on my PC when I was listening two days ago; I didn't watch the dance. I don't know dance, and it wouldn't have been very useful to me.