Guess this year's raga of Main song of Sanjay and TMK at MA

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 18 Dec 2009, 18:50

Can people guess & write what raga Sanjay subramanyam and TMK will choose
for main song at MA this year. Just to remind you Sanjay sang Kamboji and TMK Bairavi last year here.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 18 Dec 2009, 19:30

sanjai karharapria and TMK gambeera nata?!

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 18 Dec 2009, 19:47

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 19 Dec 2009, 11:15

i Have herad that MA publishes the list prior to the concert.
Sanjay is done with Kalyani, Poorvikalyani, Mathyamavathi, mohanam in other sabhas.
May be Amrutavarshini.

vinsim · Post by **vinsim** » 20 Dec 2009, 22:55

I am perplexed at the accolades thrown at Sanjay and TMK, because try as hard as I might, I cannot appreciate their music. Their voice quality is nothing much to write about, if compared with masters like Chembai or BMK who sing with full throated voice. Nor is it soothing and emotive like MDR or KVN. They don't (yet) possess the vidwath of an SSI or a GNB.

So, what is the hype all about? Is it because they sing rare RTPS and elaborate varnams for 1 hr? Why do people discuss their concerts so much?

Fellow rasikas, I would love to listen to some samples to help me understand what I am missing.

On a positive note, TMK Bhairavi on you tube is quite good...but nothing that would make me a big fan.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Dec 2009, 23:53

vinsim: That is a fair point to raise. Let us hope the fans of Sanjay and TMK will give you their perspectives. To set the context, whom do you value highly among the currently active musicians?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 21 Dec 2009, 01:05

My 2 cents:

If we are prepared to drop the notion that "if somebody else thinks something is great, then I must arrive at the same conclusion - else either they are misguided and misinformed and needs to be told so, or it is just my undoing I cannot see the same", then the question you have becomes largely irrelevant.

"Greatness" is not necessarily an objective, scientifically measurable attribute.

There are people (experienced rasikas) who do not think much of MDR, ARI, GNB, SSI and BMK. Some of them may allow "yes, the person has achieved a lot, but his music does nothing for me - cannot really listen to it". Now the natural tendency in most of us would be to say "they don't know good music when they see it", and thus they are "misinformed". However, IMO, the truth is that ultimately our barometer for measuring how good a musician is, is completely ours, and it is colored by our preferences and experiences. We really need not actively seek "affirmation" of that from others or critically judge someone else's barometer because it has no correlation against ours (but yet, we seek it - I am including myself in all of this of course

) - Live and let live.

Arun

smala · Post by **smala** » 21 Dec 2009, 07:01

Sanjay speaks/sings......is greeted with enthusiastic ovation for his mayil vaghana.........latest upload.....

mayil vaghana manamohana........http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpbwhLPH ... re=related

jAlamE seivadhAzhagAgUmA .......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIrjfSUZlQg&NR=1

many more new uploads, Dec 20th, come up on watching these.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 21 Dec 2009, 14:58

arunk wrote:My 2 cents:

If we are prepared to drop the notion that "if somebody else thinks something is great, then I must arrive at the same conclusion - else either they are misguided and misinformed and needs to be told so, or it is just my undoing I cannot see the same", then the question you have becomes largely irrelevant.

"Greatness" is not necessarily an objective, scientifically measurable attribute.

There are people (experienced rasikas) who do not think much of MDR, ARI, GNB, SSI and BMK. Some of them may allow "yes, the person has achieved a lot, but his music does nothing for me - cannot really listen to it". Now the natural tendency in most of us would be to say "they don't know good music when they see it", and thus they are "misinformed". However, IMO, the truth is that ultimately our barometer for measuring how good a musician is, is completely ours, and it is colored by our preferences and experiences. We really need not actively seek "affirmation" of that from others or critically judge someone else's barometer because it has no correlation against ours (but yet, we seek it - I am including myself in all of this of course ) - Live and let live.

Arun

Arunk, well said.

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 21 Dec 2009, 16:59

That's fine Arun

However there is always a popularity wave present in every period of time and it is just
that TMK and Sanjay (could include Aruna Sairam) who are riding the cusp.
It was Maharajapuram for some time, Jesudas, Balamurali ...and so on. 1950 and 1960's
were exceptional as we had too many on the popularity index.

vinsim : accolades are natural for those riding the peak. The frequency of discussions
stems more from popularity. May not sound rational for you but it is fashional.

vinsim · Post by **vinsim** » 22 Dec 2009, 02:27

arunk wrote:My 2 cents:

If we are prepared to drop the notion that "if somebody else thinks something is great, then I must arrive at the same conclusion - else either they are misguided and misinformed and needs to be told so, or it is just my undoing I cannot see the same", then the question you have becomes largely irrelevant.

"Greatness" is not necessarily an objective, scientifically measurable attribute.

There are people (experienced rasikas) who do not think much of MDR, ARI, GNB, SSI and BMK. Some of them may allow "yes, the person has achieved a lot, but his music does nothing for me - cannot really listen to it". Now the natural tendency in most of us would be to say "they don't know good music when they see it", and thus they are "misinformed". However, IMO, the truth is that ultimately our barometer for measuring how good a musician is, is completely ours, and it is colored by our preferences and experiences. We really need not actively seek "affirmation" of that from others or critically judge someone else's barometer because it has no correlation against ours (but yet, we seek it - I am including myself in all of this of course ) - Live and let live.

Arun

You have prescribed the ideal way of appreciating music, but honestly speaking, everyone I know likes to compare notes on music, given its length and breadth and scope.

Personally, I would not, on my own, have listened to MDR or SSI, if I had not heard people gushing about them in awe. In fact, doesn't rasikas.org exist to serve this purpose, among other things?

vinsim · Post by **vinsim** » 22 Dec 2009, 02:29

vasanthakokilam wrote:vinsim: That is a fair point to raise. Let us hope the fans of Sanjay and TMK will give you their perspectives. To set the context, whom do you value highly among the currently active musicians?

Sowmya. Among the older still performing artistes - RK Srikantan, Nedunuri Krishnamurthy

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Dec 2009, 07:34

vnsim,

I would like to think what I described is actually the "ground reality' when it comes to appreciating music i.e. we judge it a lot based on preferences. On the other hand I was indeed describing the "ideal way of letting others appreciate what they like, while we enjoy what we like"

I do find often that people get scared that "what I don't like will get hold" and thus "I will lose what I cherish". While change is certainly constant and inevitable (it has alway happened in Indian music, lo..ng before trinity, during trinity because of them, and after trinity, and it will continue on no matter what), I still hold that there is a lot of irrational fear. Change in general happens at a glacier's pace thus easily outlasting our meagre window into it.

Arun

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 22 Dec 2009, 11:22

chalanata wrote:TMK gambeera nata?!

Hahaha! Extreme much?
I think tmk will take up shankarabharnam or kalyani

Good chance of singing surrutti, harikamboji, reethigowlai, dhanyasi, mukhari, keeravani, nattakurinji, sriranjani, khams, begada, saveri or kharaharapriya somewhere in there

Yes i know ive mentioned a lot of ragams but these seem to be tmk favorites

IF he feels adventerous he might take up something like saramathi, brindavana satanga or simmendramadhyamam which he doesnt sing very often.

If he doenst sing anything ive mentioned id be very dissapointed

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 22 Dec 2009, 11:28

I differ from what vinsim said about rare RTPs and varnam as main. In fact they are a spoilers for sanjay/tmk rather
than boosting their image. Majority rasikas prefer, RTP , in a known CM raga then hindustani raga on any day and a
varnam in its right place. Though for knowledge seekers (small %) , a rare raga RTP and a varnam expt is
is a preference . Their popularity is inspite of that.

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 22 Dec 2009, 13:08

Why bother?

Whatever they sing is going to be the best rendering ever.

I only hope that they don't sing the same raga. We may have a world war in deciding which was the best :p

vinsim · Post by **vinsim** » 22 Dec 2009, 13:24

arunk,

I guess we are talking a little bit tangentially. I am not afraid of my favourites getting lost in winds of change, for I will always cherish them. Not being content with "to each, his/her own" justification, I'd like a little more understanding on artistes I find uninteresting/annoying, but enjoy wide appreciation otherwise.

For example, this evening I listened to 2 versions of Mamava pattabhirama

one by TMK -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbdeE2oI ... re=related

other by Rudrapatnam brothers -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqG2lJg7 ... re=related

I could not bear TMK's version, but found myself swaying, deep in enjoyment, when listening to Rudrapatnam brothers' rendition. I found the latter sang with more humility, bhava and devotion

Maybe this depends a little on individual taste, but there has got to be a widely accepted "common" way of discerning excellent music from the ordinary. It's a bit like movie reviews. If it is a excellent movie, most people will concur it is great.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 22 Dec 2009, 15:34

Vinsim tmk version is not bad my anymeans, everyone will sing a krithi based on the patantharam they have learnt it in.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 22 Dec 2009, 15:35

....and yea sure, we can have our preferences.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 22 Dec 2009, 18:49

For me The best of mamava is either from DKP school (vijay siva) or BMK.

srinivasrgvn · Post by **srinivasrgvn** » 23 Dec 2009, 20:07

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Dec 2009, 20:39

vinsim, thanks for sticking your neck out and providing solid examples to state your case.

I just do not get it where you see the himAlayan differences you see between the two renditions.
I guess we have to resort to 'personal tastes vary' or 'agree to disagree', 'no accounting for taste' etc.

Looking at it a bit analytically, is it possible the bhAvam and sowkyam you felt is has something to so with
the voice timbre of the duo's combined voice? It is nothing to sneeze at, that is what attracts us to
specific voices and instruments.

johnlovescm · Post by **johnlovescm** » 23 Dec 2009, 22:32

vinsim wrote:arunk,

I guess we are talking a little bit tangentially. I am not afraid of my favourites getting lost in winds of change, for I will always cherish them. Not being content with "to each, his/her own" justification, I'd like a little more understanding on artistes I find uninteresting/annoying, but enjoy wide appreciation otherwise.

For example, this evening I listened to 2 versions of Mamava pattabhirama

one by TMK -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbdeE2oI ... re=related

other by Rudrapatnam brothers -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqG2lJg7 ... re=related

I could not bear TMK's version, but found myself swaying, deep in enjoyment, when listening to Rudrapatnam brothers' rendition. I found the latter sang with more humility, bhava and devotion

Maybe this depends a little on individual taste, but there has got to be a widely accepted "common" way of discerning excellent music from the ordinary. It's a bit like movie reviews. If it is a excellent movie, most people will concur it is great.

I think u r spot on.
TMK's music I find is more of dramatics and gymnastics. Specially the mamva pattabirama that is in the youtube is sung in vilambakala, perhaps thinking it will bring in more bhawam, UNFORTUNATELY not!. It is absolutely boring.
Similarly the meenakshi memudham in poorvikalyani (youtube)!
Again if u compare the renditions of MSS, DKP, MDR, Neyyatinkara, DKJ etc it is classy. SO what is TMK trying to do . Be different from others !!!!

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 23 Dec 2009, 22:48

johnlovescm wrote:
vinsim wrote:arunk,

I guess we are talking a little bit tangentially. I am not afraid of my favourites getting lost in winds of change, for I will always cherish them. Not being content with "to each, his/her own" justification, I'd like a little more understanding on artistes I find uninteresting/annoying, but enjoy wide appreciation otherwise.

For example, this evening I listened to 2 versions of Mamava pattabhirama

one by TMK -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbdeE2oI ... re=related

other by Rudrapatnam brothers -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqG2lJg7 ... re=related

I could not bear TMK's version, but found myself swaying, deep in enjoyment, when listening to Rudrapatnam brothers' rendition. I found the latter sang with more humility, bhava and devotion

Maybe this depends a little on individual taste, but there has got to be a widely accepted "common" way of discerning excellent music from the ordinary. It's a bit like movie reviews. If it is a excellent movie, most people will concur it is great.
I think u r spot on.
TMK's music I find is more of dramatics and gymnastics. Specially the mamva pattabirama that is in the youtube is sung in vilambakala, perhaps thinking it will bring in more bhawam, UNFORTUNATELY not!. It is absolutely boring.
Similarly the meenakshi memudham in poorvikalyani (youtube)!
Again if u compare the renditions of MSS, DKP, MDR, Neyyatinkara, DKJ etc it is classy. SO what is TMK trying to do . Be different from others !!!!

I havenot liked his slow rendition of Meenakshi memudam. But I have liked most of his other renditions. TMK is young and trying different things.
I am sure he knows which is working out and which is not. If you donot try experiments, then how do you get new things in CM (within sampradaya).
Vinsim, I know you raised your concern, I beleive you have got more than good answers. could you please take it to a different thread, if you like to dig further
with more examples. This thread is more of a fun thread , a guessing game. Thanks for your cooperation.

vinsim · Post by **vinsim** » 23 Dec 2009, 22:57

vasanthakokilam,

No, the combined voice of duo didn't bias me - I just picked one example easily available. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on which artistes bring out bhava the best and leave it at that.

johnlovescm,

Thank you - I have a supporter, at last! I find his drama annoying too, but I guess we should just leave the personality out and talk about his music. I was hoping someone will post a clip or two and say, "how can you not like that? etc, etc", which I would have seen from an educational point of view.

vinsim · Post by **vinsim** » 23 Dec 2009, 23:01

rajaglan,

Sorry, I didn't meant to interrupt this thread.

How do you tranfer the convo to a different thread?

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 23 Dec 2009, 23:16

You can start a new thread with the apt title. That is what I meant.
The reason that you are not getting responses or clips is that the title
is not the appropriate one.

I am sure people will be able to give lots of mp3 examples of TMK that made
him a popular artist.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 24 Dec 2009, 07:43

rajaglan wrote:You can start a new thread with the apt title. That is what I meant.
The reason that you are not getting responses or clips is that the title
is not the appropriate one.

I am sure people will be able to give lots of mp3 examples of TMK that made
him a popular artist.

I definitely can but im not sure if i am allowed to....if i am, please let me know.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 24 Dec 2009, 09:19

Please don't upload any material by TMK and post the link in this forum.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 26 Dec 2009, 17:21

rajaglan wrote:i Have herad that MA publishes the list prior to the concert.
Sanjay is done with Kalyani, Poorvikalyani, Mathyamavathi, mohanam in other sabhas.
May be Amrutavarshini.

Begada (RTP) , kharaharapriya, naatabairavi are done.
Kamboji is done last year.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 26 Dec 2009, 18:25

rajaglan wrote:
rajaglan wrote:i Have herad that MA publishes the list prior to the concert.
Sanjay is done with Kalyani, Poorvikalyani, Mathyamavathi, mohanam in other sabhas.
May be Amrutavarshini.
Begada (RTP) , kharaharapriya, naatabairavi are done.
Kamboji is done last year.

So is tilang rtp, varamu rtp and ragesri rtp

Jonpuri rtp last yr i think? But he had put saveri rtp last yr but changed it so maybe could be saveri

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 27 Dec 2009, 12:35

rasika911,
I am referring to his main song (Like last year Kamboji) . MA Being the most traditional sabha, i think he is not
going to try out HM ragas as RTP as main item of the concert. So I am just eliminating what he sang on the same venue
last year and the pure CM ragas that he sang in this season. Saveri could be a choice as you said.

ram · Post by **ram** » 27 Dec 2009, 20:51

Reporting from the academy. TMK is singing RTP in nAttakurinji now in tisra tripuTa - 4 kaLai. This is the main.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Dec 2009, 20:55

Wow, great reporting from the field, Ram! Keep going.

saiganesh · Post by **saiganesh** » 27 Dec 2009, 21:15

oh!! nice to hear that ... live reporting..

ganesh_mourthy · Post by **ganesh_mourthy** » 27 Dec 2009, 22:17

IMO the parameters can be poor shruthi , bad tala control, poor breath control and anything else is subjective and personal tastes. but unfortunately some of the doyens and stalwarts sung in poor shruti and out of range and a sophisticated ear can discern it quite well. so what is good singing and music I wonder.
Unfortunately personal tastes too sway from time to time from disposition to disposition.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 28 Dec 2009, 04:42

ram wrote:Reporting from the academy. TMK is singing RTP in nAttakurinji now in tisra tripuTa - 4 kaLai. This is the main.

Looking forward to the song list

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 28 Dec 2009, 08:26

Naatakurinchi is also an SSI school raga. I heard yesterday parasala ponnammal and SSI renditions.
And definitely I never heard it from TMK. I think he doesnot have an album with this raga as main.
Thank you Ram for the update.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 28 Dec 2009, 23:57

when is sanjay singing in MA this year...today or tomorrow.

sangeethamquest · Post by **sangeethamquest** » 30 Dec 2009, 01:17

I am perplexed at the accolades thrown at Sanjay and TMK, because try as hard as I might, I cannot appreciate their music. Their voice quality is nothing much to write about, if compared with masters like Chembai or BMK who sing with full throated voice. Nor is it soothing and emotive like MDR or KVN. They don't (yet) possess the vidwath of an SSI or a GNB.

So, what is the hype all about? Is it because they sing rare RTPS and elaborate varnams for 1 hr? Why do people discuss their concerts so much?

Fellow rasikas, I would love to listen to some samples to help me understand what I am missing.

On a positive note, TMK Bhairavi on you tube is quite good...but nothing that would make me a big fan.

I agree 100% with Vinsim.

However we need to keep in mind that most of the older generation of musicians started performing after many many years of toil and sadhana.... If I can recollect I think KVN performed for the first time when he was over 40 years. They had gained maturity and the musical depth before they started performing. However the new generation cannot wait to get onto the stage. I read a very nice article on this in the shruti magazine (I will try to dig this out). It is like the old mami's cooking compared to the young one. To know when, where and the quanties to add (or not add) of the extra pinch of salt or spice needs experience......

But.......we cannot take away credit from Sanjay and TMK they may not be as good (not yet accepted to the hall of fame) as the older generation folks, but they are the best amongst the new generation and there is no harm in giving them their due as ARUNK has said...we are fine as long as we don't compare them with MMI, KVN, Voleti, MDR. Like the trinity .....MMI, KVN, MDR etc were special.

Coming to renditions it also depends if it is your day, if the team gels...... if your energy levels are high etc...many factors combine to making it a best piece I don't know if you can take one piece in one concert and decide if that is the best rendition by this musician if you listen to MMI's Vatapi it is brilliant in some concerts but not so brilliant in others....similary with KVN's Evari Mata or other pieces....in fact MDR sounds ordinary in some concerts. However what separated them was the ability to keep you engrossed for 3 hours on most occasions.......they could elevate you frequently. The intensity never dropped in their concerts it always increases and that requires years of vidwath and most of them never resorted to new ragas or kannaku excercises (not that I am against this practice).

In defence of the new generation.......the older generation had to sing fewer concerts compared to the demands on Sanjay or TMK. I believe this gave them more time to prepare, introspect, refine and fine tune their music and also be fresh and eager for each concert.............if you are required to dish out great concerts day in and day out, there is not enough time for preparation for each concert and the thought process does not have time to introspect and refine itself.

smriti · Post by **smriti** » 30 Dec 2009, 10:07

Look forward to Sanjay today. Am kicking myself for missing 4-5 precious days of concerts thanks to all the fun and frolicking with family!

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 30 Dec 2009, 10:35

sangeethamquest,

That is definitely a more balanced view with reasoning....I appreciate.

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 30 Dec 2009, 10:47

What you say is pretty much valid. But how come a newer generation HM musician (say for example Sanjeev Abhyankar) able maintain the same intennsity as a Jasraj or a Bhimsen Joshi. It all finally boils down to dilution and pandering to the masses / crowd for popularity and the knowledge level of the masses !!

Yesterday I was for a few minutes listening to the sri nadadi guruguho of TMK. The way he has sung it is so artificial and full of voice modulation and going up and down in the swara scales freqeuntly. Compare that to the rendition of DKJ / DKP - it is pristine / pure and chaste. Again comparing with other musicians might not be correct but cant help it. If you listen carefully there are many places where the sruti slips, kalapramanam goes for a complete toss. This is in youtube. The crowd some are fully engossed and some have a boring look

kharaharapriyajanyam · Post by **kharaharapriyajanyam** » 30 Dec 2009, 11:46

This is endless! People, stop comparing present day musicians and past musicians. Past is past and present is present. Music will not be the same all throughout your life. Change is only constant! If you cannot appreciate today's musicians and their music, best stop hearing and keep listening to old records/tapes! Learn to appreciate what is done in the present and stop comparing!

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 30 Dec 2009, 12:26

rajaglan wrote:
rajaglan wrote:i Have herad that MA publishes the list prior to the concert.
Sanjay is done with Kalyani, Poorvikalyani, Mathyamavathi, mohanam in other sabhas.
May be Amrutavarshini.
Begada (RTP) , kharaharapriya, naatabairavi are done.
Kamboji is done last year.

Sahana and Aberi is also done.
Shaunmugapriya and Hindolam is also eliminated now .
See the thread on sanjay @ rajaannamalaimandram

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 30 Dec 2009, 12:32

How about a grand Bhairavi. Either for Main or for RTP.. just go traditional for a change

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 30 Dec 2009, 12:36

vasanthakokilam wrote:How about a grand Bhairavi. Either for Main or for RTP.. just go traditional for a change

I was just thinking about bairavi after seeing the eliminated ragas. great coincidence.

Or Saveri which was missed out last year!

If he comes down to IInd level then amritavarshini and hemavathi and dharmavathi and kedaragowlai, YGK...so many

But I am sure, it will be a surprise.

ram · Post by **ram** » 30 Dec 2009, 19:53

Reporting from the academy. Sanjay has so far sung sAvEri (sarasUDa), bEgaDA (abhimAnam), AbhOgi (sabhApatikku).Ahiri alap is on.

ram · Post by **ram** » 30 Dec 2009, 20:06

Main is shri dakSinAmUrtE(shankarAbharaNam)

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 30 Dec 2009, 20:34

Ram - This is like the early days when the transatlantic cable was laid and the Reuters guys sent in their reports 'live'!! Thank you!