TM Krishna's article in the Hindu - "Between Tradition and E

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 21 Dec 2009, 07:16

TMK has stated the following in his article in the Hindu Sunday Magazine

"If an instrument, even with adjustments, cannot be a complete representation of the Carnatic aesthetic, then why play Carnatic music on it?

The saxophone, among other instruments, is today very popular. The artists have made some modifications and changes to try and make it sound Carnatic but that has just not happened. The inherent limitation of the instrument makes the artiste limit his choice of ragas. Is this necessary? This is, to me, ridiculous. Are we willing to limit the bandwidth of a musical idiom to accommodate an instrument? If an instrument, even with adjustments, cannot be a complete representation of the Carnatic aesthetic, then why play Carnatic music on it? I am not questioning the ability of the artists who obviously must have put in tremendous work to even get the Saxophone to produce what it does today, but unfortunately, it still does not work. We need to question the very idea of using it as a Carnatic instrument."

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 21 Dec 2009, 07:41

Shivadasan sir
There's much that I disagree with in that article, including several "facts" but I'm going to post my response under a separate, suitably "provocative" title when I get time

. If I had a personal blog, I might have posted it there.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 21 Dec 2009, 07:45

Personally i agree with everything he has said

But i know there will be people who will definitely not like what he has said. Wonder what his cousin thinks about this

Note: shivadasan has not reproduced entire article and only an excerpt, read the full article on the link.

Svaapana · Post by **Svaapana** » 21 Dec 2009, 07:52

While approving clarinet he comes down heavily on keyboard also.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 21 Dec 2009, 15:10

Rasika911 wrote:Personally i agree with everything he has said
But i know there will be people who will definitely not like what he has said. Wonder what his cousin thinks about this

Note: shivadasan has not reproduced entire article and only an excerpt, read the full article on the link.

cousin who?

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 21 Dec 2009, 16:16

In agreement with TMK, toto.

Wonder why the ancient yaazh (tamil harp) disappeared.......
anything to do with its inability to reproduce gamakas.....just curious.

But maybe it existed in BCs and Carnatic music didnt originate then.

Purist · Post by **Purist** » 21 Dec 2009, 16:36

"'have our sensitivities to music so dull or is any novelty acceptable" questions TMK.

That makes me laugh... who is telling who !!!. smacks hypocrisy.

sundance · Post by **sundance** » 21 Dec 2009, 16:39

rajaglan wrote:
Rasika911 wrote:Personally i agree with everything he has said
But i know there will be people who will definitely not like what he has said. Wonder what his cousin thinks about this

Note: shivadasan has not reproduced entire article and only an excerpt, read the full article on the link.
cousin who?

Anil Srinivasan. Indeed, it will be interesting to see what he has to say about this.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 21 Dec 2009, 21:02

Purist, indeed, I see eye-to-eye with TMK on both these issues:
1. not every instrument can be sensibly and sensitively adapted into CM,
2. there's no harm in ordering concert-worthy compositions in Carnatic music differently from how it's normally done. It's departure from a tradition only about as old as ARI, and not as old as the Trinity or PD.

When we bring in unsuitable instruments, the music itself changes. When we alter the order of compositions, only the presentation (that too, just the order of items) changes. Even if it is the first item to be served, curd rice is a South Indian dish, where as serving noodles in the name of SouthIndian food is wrong.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 22 Dec 2009, 06:06

Ironically tm krishna has echoed member harimau's views- who was criticized for his statements

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 22 Dec 2009, 07:20

The whole article has to be read together. The quoted paragraph sounds harsher if read alone, but makes sense if read along with the rest of the article.

Purist, please don't shoot the messenger.

I stand corrected after reading the enlightening posts by Shivadasan.

laks1972 · Post by **laks1972** » 22 Dec 2009, 20:12

The limitations in sax mentioned by TMK is not anything new due to advent of such instruments into carnatic music

It has existed even before that.

What about jalatharangam. ? Absolutely no scope for gamakam

And what about the established harmonium ? Again no gamakam. But it has been used in carnatic and hindustani music

Keyboard is much better than harmonium as it gives scope for gamakam

smriti · Post by **smriti** » 22 Dec 2009, 23:01

I am sure the violin met with violent reactions from the vidwans of those times! My grandfather mentioned that U Srinivas' choice of the Mandolin was repeatedly questioned by vidwans and critics some 20 years ago. But with time both the violin and mandolin have gained acceptance. Don't you think the sax or the other instruments have a similar chance? Instruments also adapt to man's requirements, not just the other way around!

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 22 Dec 2009, 23:39

smriti,

I remember very well, the response for Usrinivas. It was not as bad as you said. Subbudu was all in praise for him from the day he listened to him.
There was a cover page in vikatan (vikatan those days used to have joke in cover except on -special occasions- ) with U srinivas and an article on
him, a cover story. And the reception for him is not like Gitar prassanna, or keyboard players of today etc..His albums sold like hot cake. He came
in the only DD channel, in a concert program along with the greats like maharajapuram. I do have both tapes recorded in a PAL VCR. His cassetts
were selling in huge volumes. I never heard any vidwans questioning his choice. May be not present in chennai , I might have missed this. Similar prodigies
like Ravikiran or Shashank didnot get this kind of reception though all three are not from TN, and the later two had advantage of media.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 22 Dec 2009, 23:42

There is the famous story of 'yAzh muRi paN'(breaking of the yAzh). Goes as follows. ThirunIlalaNTar was a yAzh vidwan who took pride in his musical ability to play anything on that instrument. Thirugnaanasambandar aware of his pride asked him to accompany him on one of his pathikams. Unable to follow his gamakas and in disgust ThirunIlakaNTar broke his yAzh. Experts claim that the raga sung on that occasion was nIlAmbari which is now also known as 'yAzh muRip paN'. Perhaps that spelt the demise of yAzh as an accompaniment for CM! TMK is right in claiming that instruments made for other genres of music may not all be appropriate for CM. In fact IMHO CM is much more subtle than any of HM/WM/FM/....

Rishi Sharma · Post by **Rishi Sharma** » 23 Dec 2009, 04:26

cmlover sir, the 'yAzh muRi paN' equates to the present-day Atana. The Padikam with the beginning 'MAdar Madappidiyum' is sung in Yazh muRi paN / Atana, where the last line of every stanza is sung in 4 speeds.

As the yazh vittakar could not keep up with Tirugnanasambandar's gamakams, he broke his yazh in reverence. (I'd like to think of it as in reverence!!)

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Dec 2009, 05:56

I've heard it was nIlAmbari and the gamakams are more complex therein. It does not matter however. But the disappearance of yAzh from CM is a fact! Goes to show that 'all is not grist that comes to the CM mill'!

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 23 Dec 2009, 07:15

Rasika911 wrote:Ironically tm krishna has echoed member harimau's views- who was criticized for his statements

Harimau takes a bow to the resounding applause of one lone member!

I seriously thought about posting a reference to the article here but then decided that I shall not blow my own trumpet, particularly when that would not produce the gamakas needed!

A week back, M V Ramakrishnan wrote a review of Aruna Sayeeram's concert and used the phrase "cast a spell" recalling the title I had used in my review of a different concert by Aruna Sayeeram.

I could have rubbed it in to other reviewers here by saying "Die, scum, die; I write deathless prose and you don't" but then American expressions may not be considered original and I would have to come up with a replacement phrase to meet objections by certain people.

So, now you can try to figure out if Harimau is T M Krishna or M V Ramakrishnan!

But then, my review of T N Seshagopalan a year back (Smt. Saroja Ramanujam walked out of this site in a huff over this review) was echoed word for word by "Narada" (Papanasam Ashok Ramani)!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Dec 2009, 07:29

Harimau, before you take full credit for all this, you should acknowledge that you differ considerably from T.M. Krishna in that he readily accomodates Guitar and Mandolin where as you are against any use of non-indian instruments in CM.

Naresh Purushotham · Post by **Naresh Purushotham** » 23 Dec 2009, 20:28

I wonder how an artist can be so closed and insensitive to innovation and new genres!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Dec 2009, 21:24

Like 'Enna Solven' said, I encourage people to read his entire article. Not that it will make you agree with his points, but he has developed his ideas in an elaborate manner and so it is better to have that full context.

Regarding the saxophone, assuming his judgement that saxaphone is not capable of the full CM aesthetic bandwidth, what is wrong with a reduced aesthetic if that comes packaged in a sound ( harmonics ) that is unique to saxophone? So the true test, given the subset it can play, does it sound like carnatic music?

This 'full bandwidth requirement' is arbitrary and any allusion that it is going to cause harm to CM is just pure speculation and irresponsible. ( in the interest of full disclosure, I am not a big fan of the saxophone sound in CM, the way CM is played on it is a bit too smooth for my tastes ).

Regarding the keyboard, I am delighted to learn from his observations but surprised by his conclusions. He says that the curves of the gamakas are not right. That is great feedback from someone who knows this stuff. But given the keyboard's ultimate flexibility with pitch bend, it can not be a limitation of the instrument in creating the necessary curves. But to his credit, he does reserve judgment on the keyboard that in the future someone can do better and make it suitable for CM. So the challenge for keyboardists now is to really understand what TMK is saying at a deeper level and try to rectify it. That may be a fruitful and productive approach.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 23 Dec 2009, 22:46

VK
I agree TMK's views are highly subjective though he is an outstanding expert! Objective scientific analysis can prove him wrong. CM has not reached a stage where objective analysis is the gold standard. Most of the Rasikas go by hearsay and are conditioned by what an 'acknowledged expert' says though he/she could be wrong. For that matter a harimau will not be liistened to while a TMK 's views will not be challenged based on his high profile (I am saying just for example and not particularly in this case!)Many times Rasika views are modulated by hero-worship and by what their peers say. There are many who would not even accept 'objective proof' since they blindly follow their hero and his flock. CM is highly subjective. I notice that many of the views of today's youngsters are fashioned by the 80 year olds. When one of them claims that the kambodhi of alathur in the concert xx-xx-1956 was the all-time best then automatically the youngsters will swallow it and consider it as gospel truth and will refuse to accept a Sanjay who gives an inspired Kambodhi today. My conclusions are based on human psychology. CM is an art and perhaps Science has no room for creating perceptions. :sigh

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 23 Dec 2009, 22:54

cmlover wrote:though he is an outstanding expert!

TMK is an outstanding musician and vocalist (and I'm a fan) but clearly doesn't know much about the evolution of instruments or instrumental techniques. A musician of his stature has no business passing off living room conversation for scholarship. The whole situation is quite ridiculous.

I'm extremely busy with work, not even being able to attend season concerts to my fulfilment but I will post a critique in these pages sometime soon, perhaps over the weekend.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 23 Dec 2009, 23:22

cmlover wrote:VK
I agree TMK's views are highly subjective though he is an outstanding expert! Objective scientific analysis can prove him wrong. CM has not reached a stage where objective analysis is the gold standard. Most of the Rasikas go by hearsay and are conditioned by what an 'acknowledged expert' says though he/she could be wrong. For that matter a harimau will not be liistened to while a TMK 's views will not be challenged based on his high profile (I am saying just for example and not particularly in this case!)Many times Rasika views are modulated by hero-worship and by what their peers say. There are many who would not even accept 'objective proof' since they blindly follow their hero and his flock. CM is highly subjective. I notice that many of the views of today's youngsters are fashioned by the 80 year olds. When one of them claims that the kambodhi of alathur in the concert xx-xx-1956 was the all-time best then automatically the youngsters will swallow it and consider it as gospel truth and will refuse to accept a Sanjay who gives an inspired Kambodhi today. My conclusions are based on human psychology. CM is an art and perhaps Science has no room for creating perceptions. :sigh

This is what is called riding an auto in a cycle gap. I am reeferring to the stmt on kamboji here.
The best kamboji I ever heard was Sanjay at MA last year. My father claims the best is MMI while listening to the Sanjay.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Dec 2009, 01:02

Uday_Shankar wrote: TMK is an outstanding musician and vocalist (and I'm a fan) but clearly doesn't know much about the evolution of instruments or instrumental techniques. A musician of his stature has no business passing off living room conversation for scholarship. The whole situation is quite ridiculous.

Reminds me of the time when the Nobel Laurate Linus Pauling commended massive daily doses of Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) as a prohylactic.. With all due respects Pauling was a Chemist and not a physician! He had no credentials to formulate a recommendation out of his field of expertise. The pharmacy industry had a field day selling vitamin C! Gullible folks only looked at his nobel award. Since studies have exploded his claims..

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 24 Dec 2009, 07:48

rajaglan wrote:
This is what is called riding an auto in a cycle gap. I am reeferring to the stmt on kamboji here.
The best kamboji I ever heard was Sanjay at MA last year. My father claims the best is MMI while listening to the Sanjay.

I can add to this....the best kamboji i have heard would be TMK @ the academy on 07, that mari mari ninne was brilliant.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 24 Dec 2009, 08:41

cmlover, Vitamin C is water-soluble: will excess Vitamin C create problems?

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 24 Dec 2009, 08:48

"If an instrument, even with adjustments, cannot be a complete representation of the Carnatic aesthetic, then why play Carnatic music on it?"

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 24 Dec 2009, 08:56

Shivadasan,
Thanks for the excellent post. Why did you wait so long ? You could have saved me much anxiety by posting this earlier. I simply don't have the time these days.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 24 Dec 2009, 09:58

Shivadasan im pretty sure tmk thinks veena is fine.
If we take any piece of text and analyse each word and every letter of what is written, it becomes very easy to distort the actual meaning of what is trying to be said.
Lets step back and look at the article as a whole instead of trying to find a fallacy in each sentence.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 24 Dec 2009, 10:28

Dear Rasika911,

I relish your one liners.

In this case however , I would appreciate if you could come out with a more detailed interpretation and your analysis of what TMK is trying to say, rather than analysing Shivadasan's interpretation of TMK's article.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 24 Dec 2009, 12:11

I think TMK's priority isn't continuity of sound (people with very bad lung power can't sing a note for a long time either!) gamakas. Buttoned wind instruments like the saxophone really suffer here. I don't know where mandolin and electric guitar stand, since they're fretted and don't allow much bending of strings, but having listened to U Srinivas, I do feel the mandolin does decently.

The keyboard offers "base note" on the right hand and "distortion" on the left hand which is probably very unintuitive as compared to the veena or the violin where both are done with the left hand. I am not sure, because I haven't tried a distortion-offering keyboard yet. I feel learning keyboard can give some amount of shruti sense though, but beyond a stage it needs to be abandoned in CM pursuit (I mean keyboard without distortions here).

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 24 Dec 2009, 12:25

Reading the title initially made me think "When did TMK start playing the saxophone?"

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 24 Dec 2009, 14:37

Me too

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 24 Dec 2009, 18:40

srikant1987 wrote:I don't know where mandolin and electric guitar stand, since they're fretted and don't allow much bending of strings, but having listened to U Srinivas, I do feel the mandolin does decently.

Srikant,

Electric mandolin (i.e. the one Srinivas plays) and electric guitar are practically identical in terms of CM techniques. There is practically no "bending" of the strings whatever. 95% of gamakas are produced by sliding alone and very very occassionally I have seen a little bending, but the bending cannot span more than a tone and that too with difficulty. And as you say, it is quite "decent". It is not too a difficult instrument to play, actually. As with all electric guitars (as I said the terms electric mandolin and electic guitar can be used interchangeably in the Carnatic context), the frets are extremely low profile, helping in the gliding.

While I'm at it, I might as well point out that the wrong "mandolin", i.e. an acoustic instead of an electric mandolin, is depicted in the picture along with the article. The difference between an acoustic mandolin and an electric mandolin as far as being able to play CM gamakas is night and day.

No word is more misunderstood in the limited instrumental universe of Carnatic music than the word "mandolin"

lahari · Post by **lahari** » 24 Dec 2009, 20:14

That was an eye opener, uday_shankar.

Thks

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Dec 2009, 21:36

srikant1987 wrote:cmlover, Vitamin C is water-soluble: will excess Vitamin C create problems?

Even plain water in excess is dangerous! Fortunately Vit C being soluble gets excreted and reasonably large doses do no harm; but they do no good either. However since it is an antioxidant it provides some protection and it is not necessary to take massive doses as suggested by Pauling for that matter..

laks1972 · Post by **laks1972** » 24 Dec 2009, 21:40

srikant1987 wrote:cmlover, Vitamin C is water-soluble: will excess Vitamin C create problems?

Vit C Overdose can cause diarrhea, gas, or stomach upset. Other side effects could be stomach cramps, nausea, and diarrhea, and an increased risk of developing kidney stones. Large amounts of Vitamin C reduce body levels of copper, an essential nutrient. People with iron overload diseases must avoid Vitamin C Overdose, as it increases iron absorption.

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 24 Dec 2009, 21:47

laks1972 wrote:
srikant1987 wrote:cmlover, Vitamin C is water-soluble: will excess Vitamin C create problems?
Vit C Overdose can cause diarrhea, gas, or stomach upset. Other side effects could be stomach cramps, nausea, and diarrhea, and an increased risk of developing kidney stones. Large amounts of Vitamin C reduce body levels of copper, an essential nutrient. People with iron overload diseases must avoid Vitamin C Overdose, as it increases iron absorption.

Are you in to medicine related profession ?

laks1972 · Post by **laks1972** » 24 Dec 2009, 21:51

rajaglan wrote:Are you in to medicine related profession ?

Not really, though I have lot of interest in health topics. I read and browse a bit on health. That is all.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 24 Dec 2009, 22:01

Perhaps we should admit that CM is dominated by vocal music. All the instruments are just accompaniments. Each of them complement some aspect of the vocal music and none is equivalent; nneither can any imitate the human voice. However nothing other than Violin has been adapted to accompany perfectly. We know the Trinity only used the veena as the accompaniment whcih has been totally supplanted by Violin. The flute in spite of its versatility has never been adapted as a concert accompaniment. Only veena and nadaswaaram survive on their own as independant instruments from times of yore which have been legitimately accepted as 'CM' genres. Violin has successfully adapted itself as an independant instrument due to its closeness to the 'vocal chords'. If the instruments have to be liberated from being a slave to the vocalist there is a need for modernising CM freeing it from being kriti-based. We have to learn to appreciate melody per se and the beauty of the ragas per se independant of the compositions. Right now we tend to ask what kriti he is playing whenever an instrumentalist does play and that should change. The instrumental genre of CM has been highly neglected and it is time that performers/rasikas focus on new ideas to advance CM in those areas. Innovations are needed as also an open appreciative mind among the Rasikas. I commend those of you trying to develop new instruments/techniques which will expand our concept of CM by adding a new dimension!

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 25 Dec 2009, 05:17

Uday_Shankar wrote:
Shivadasan wrote:If an instrument which can reproduce CM, but not to the full extent, is used in CM then we should be happy and consider it as an enrichment to CM to the extent to the limited extant of music it adds. Why impose a qualification that it should be able to reproduce CM to the full extent ?
Certainly golden words, but I wll go even further...Later !

The problem begins when you start playing heavy carnatic krithis on these instruments. There is no way in hell you can play balagopala on a piano but if you really want to then, you need to change the style and structure of the composition. Over time this wil dilute carnatic music.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 25 Dec 2009, 05:19

The problem is that the artists dont stick to the instruments limitations and try to push the boundaries- this is when the dilution occurs.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Dec 2009, 05:27

Perhaps the time has come for the vocals and instrumentals to take different routes in CM !
They both can enrich CM independantly!

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 25 Dec 2009, 06:14

cmlover wrote:Perhaps the time has come for the vocals and instrumentals to take different routes in CM !
They both can enrich CM independantly!

I dont think anyone can enrich CM. We should be happy if they maintain what we have at the moment without destroying the system!

rajaglan · Post by **rajaglan** » 25 Dec 2009, 09:27

laks1972 wrote:
rajaglan wrote:Are you in to medicine related profession ?

Not really, though I have lot of interest in health topics. I read and browse a bit on health. That is all.

thank you , me too the same.

Shivadasan · Post by **Shivadasan** » 25 Dec 2009, 17:18

A few questions arise on the issue.

Should ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‹Å“Carnatic MusicÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ mean only the vocal style of music and nothing else ? Should an instrument, when used in CM, reproduce only the vocal music or is there any liberty left for the artist to explore the ragaÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s aesthetics according to the merits of the instrument ?

According to TMK "The basis of Indian classical music and its aesthetic is the extensive use of gamaka (various musical ornamentations) on the swaras. This gives our music a distinct colour and flavour."

komalangi · Post by **komalangi** » 25 Dec 2009, 19:57

Or stop paying to attention to this particular commentator on carnatic music who is very quickly losing credibility as a spokesperson for the art form. His misuse of a responsible media forum is becoming far too obvious and disconcerting.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Dec 2009, 21:13

Shivadasan
That is a brilliant analysis! You have captured the spirit of the post. Now please propose your solution.
Who should bell the cat? We Rasikas are the stake-holders.

Rasika911 · Post by **Rasika911** » 26 Dec 2009, 05:25

komalangi wrote:Or stop paying to attention to this particular commentator on carnatic music who is very quickly losing credibility as a spokesperson for the art form. His misuse of a responsible media forum is becoming far too obvious and disconcerting.

I think the problem is rasikas dont want to hear anything besides what they think. I find tm krishna's articles fascinating to read as he comes across as brutally honest and speaks his heart. It would have been very easy for him to say some crap like it is a healthy sign for carnatic music that many western instruments are being adopted to play the carnatic genre blah blah blah! Over time tmk has toned down his apporach but still writes what he feels about various topics which, is something we dont get from carnatic musicians.