Is an idol necessary for CM?

[srkris]

I got a sudden doubt about the Carnatic Music Idol show.

Doesn't it make more losers than winners? How many losers do we need in CM? Isn't it counterproductive as far as the idea of encouraging more youth to take up CM is concerned? Would all the greats that have graced the world of CM so far have won this show if it had existed way back? Would it have affected their morale and career if they had failed?

[suma]

This thought came to me also while watching Sa Re Ga Ma Pa of Zee TV a few years back. It was amazing to see extraordinary talent. I think it gave the music directors a lot more options to choose a singer rather than the routine name brand playback singers for a much lower cost. Competition was created to the otherwise beaurocratic ways of getting into the industry.

How good will this be in Carnatic Music? We'll have to wait and see.

[cmlover]

Actually this competition is the mirror of the Cleveland Competitions in a much bigger scale.
The Cleveland Competition however is needed to financially sustain the Festival.
However this one is a Publicity gimmik for the Jaya TV. True Rasikas are not impressed by these shows who only care for quality CM wherever it be. They always ask 'What is best ' and never care for 'Who is best' !

[harimau]

I got a sudden doubt about the Carnatic Music Idol show.

Doesn't it make more losers than winners? How many losers do we need in CM?

Hey, we rasikas have already been the losers in the game, having to listen to all sorts of instruments such as the keyboard.

There is no reason not to accept one more gimmick that exposes the shallowness of the Carnatic music world.

There is one consolation though.

Leading musicians who whine about not being treated on a par with other highly-paid musicians can take additional affront from the fact that the winner of the Carnatic Idol contest gets to perform in North America and Singapore whereas , when they started out, they had to content themselves with singing in Virugambakkam and Gummidipoondy.

Thank you, Jaya TV, for bursting their bubble about their self-importance!

[sureshvv]

Neither necessary nor sufficient.

[VK RAMAN]

No body can beat harimau

[ramarama]

So ... there aren't any serious rasikas in Virugambakkam or Gummidipoondy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virugambakkam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gummidipoondi

[tkb]

in the quest of trying to prove something let us not insult / degrade winners of these competitions. Few of the participants in this show were really good and let us appreciate the fact they were also judged by renowned musicians.

As far harimau's mention on keyboard i am happy that at least these kind of references / discussions are on which paves way for these instruments to be in the minds of people. I am sure western instruments like the Violin (probably due to its wide acceptance and as it has been adapted by our musicians in general, it has become our child) Mandolin, Saxophone to name a few has all gone through these phases before getting themselves established.

As cmlover writes, "True Rasikas are not impressed by these shows who only care for quality CM wherever it be. They always ask 'What is best ' and never care for 'Who is best' !" . My suggestion to keyboard practitioner trying to perform Carnatic / Karnatic music is cheer up! Do your best and you will have your day! True Rasikas in general appreciate good music no matter from whom and which instrument it comes from!!

[srikant1987]

I am sure western instruments like the Violin (probably due to its wide acceptance and as it has been adapted by our musicians in general, it has become our child) Mandolin, Saxophone to name a few has all gone through these phases before getting themselves established.

Now that I've become more aware, the tempered scale on the mandolin does get irritating, especially for the antara gandhara. :tmi:

[devi]

My humble thoughts..Competitions were always there, taking one shape or the other.... not every practicing musician came to the forefront anyway. Participants of such competitions can take away some of good points and reflect whether they need to go through this again or steer clear. Definitely Carnatic Music Idol or any other programme of its ilk is not the reason why classical music is appreciated.

[cmrasika87]

Putting aside the query of whether the idol is needed or not, I have a casual query.
I just saw the recording of Bharat Sudar. Can anyone pls help me dissect the viriboni varnam mishram part? How exactly did he split the lines into partly chatushram and partly mishram?

[natakapriya]

He split it into tisram and chatusram. 3+4=7.

[cmrasika87]

1) Natakapriya, some queries buddy. But mukthayi swaram didn't sound like tishram right? How did he manouevre that?

2) And Mishram means accomodating 7 notes for a hit. So how is that singing the varnam in a combination of tishram and chatushram being called or nomenclated as accomplishing mishram?

3) How should we sing Tanam in kanda nadai adi talam? Is it incorporated in the same way that a normal tanam is sung in chatushra nadai adi talam? Because that's what Bharat Sundar seems to be doing in the youtube video by putting thaka-thakita, thaka-thakita on the hand and singing tanam syllables...

[ubari]

Singing viriboni in misra nadai is possible because. the total count of KANDA JATHI ATA THAALA is 14.. hence misram will accept the varnam as it is.. The guy on that video sung it in misra nadai which is different from misra gathi. misra gathi is having misra chaapu thaalam in each BEAT of aadhi thaalam.. Misra nadai is the SECONd speed of misra gathi.

And the 4+3 combination was done because. the judges asked him to sing it in ADHI TAALAM. but i felt he could have sung the full varnam in misra nadai.

[ubari]

and the mukthaayi swaram was sung in MISRA nadai as it is.. and not chatusram and thisram..

and regarding kanda nadai thaanam. its just singing thaanam in THAKATHAKITA.. thats it.. The challenge is to finish the thaanam like u do in chatusranadai . that is . nomtha nomtha nomtha nom nomtha nomthaa . which is 16.. And to fit it into kanda nadai. its shud be taken 4 after beat.. And thats where he slipped few times but managed to finish it succesfully

[cmrasika87]

Thanks ubari for the explanation. Now am clear

Just a generic query--

1) Generally in concerts if the artist wants to render the varnam in mishram, does he sing the whole varnam in mishram or only some parts like mukthayi swaram alone in mishram?

2) Also in concerts is it allowed to incorporate mishram in 2 different ways for the same varnam as Bharat Sundar did in the case of this video (of course he was instructed to sing viriboni in adhi talam so he had to sing the pallavi and anupallavi in 3+4 style)? Or do people stick to only 1 kind of incorporation of mishram for the varnam?

thanks, regards.

[vasanthakokilam]

ubari, in your explanation, it looks like it is only the thala kriya that is different and not the singing itself. Is that true?

[ubari]

Well yeah . In concert its the artiste's wish to either sing completely in mishram or any other combination. It can also be sung partly chatusram and partly kandam. Partly chatusram and partly chatusra thisram.. Many other ways. it ultimately depends on what the artiste wants to do. Either to establish MISRAM or to EXPLAIN THE FACETS of MISRAM.. (more like a lecdem)


@ vasanthakokilam : Yeah its just like doing thisram.. Only the number of maathrai's in one thattu differs. for instance.

Try singing viriboni keezh kaalam and that NI ends in thattu.
Try singing in thisra nadai NI ends in INDEX finger.

thats the basic difference. in thisram u say 6 in place of 4 and misram 7 instead of 4..

[vasanthakokilam]

ubari, there has always been this difference in school of thought about what thisram singing in varnam and RTP is. I assume you said 'yeah' to my understanding of your original explantion. That is, there is no difference in the actual singing but only the thala keeping between chathusram and thisram. If you close your eyes and the singer is not making audible thala keeping sounds, the listener would not hear a difference. Correct? If so, I am led to conclude that in your explanation the mathrai duration is the same between chathusram and thisram. True? ( just making sure I understood you right )

[cmlover]

VK
I am confused. If catusram and tisram maintain the same maathrai how can the kaalapramaaNam be maintained. Could you show the math?

[cmrasika87]

ubari tks a lot for the explanation..
and it looks like its a good thing I started the math part of the carnatic idol video clips.. Now this discussion is heading into an interesting lec dem kind of thing |( ... nice to know that many ppl r interested in the math part..

[ragam-talam]

Re: srkris's original question - whether a Carnatic idol is good for the health of CM...

I was wondering how some of the illustrious vidwans of yesteryears would have fared at one of these Idol competitions: MDR, SKR, Voleti, Chittur, MVI, Tiger, et al.
I bet they would have all failed! Good thing they didn't have this circus during their times...

[chalanata]

A competition like this may not bring out the real talent because it is like the 20-20 cricket.
There are subjective and prejudiced judgements.
The media glare is counter productive; it pushes the children into things which are not exactly connected with cm.
The ruthlessness in competition dampens a genuine and hard working student.
It may also relegate learning to the back for a winning competitor.
These kind of reality shows sometimes push the participants/parents in to a trauma as an aftermath.
Still....
The following questions come to my mind:
Is there a forum in which youth can showcase his/her talent?
Are the senior vidwans who by sheer past performance continue in the limelight despite disastrous performances ready to give way for these youngsters?
Are the sabhas ready to promote the young talent in the prime slots?
As of now an infamous youngster is funding his performances for pakkavadyam etc and for how long he can do this?
Are the accompanying artists ready to play free or for a nominal fee till such time the youngster receives a good fee for his concerts to support himself and the accompanists?
Unless these questions are addressed properly gate crashing like 'an idol' is necessary.

[karaharapriyajanyam]

Is there a forum in which youth can showcase his/her talent?

IMHO that showcasing one's talent in Chennai is possible as there are a lot of music lovers and people who do give chances to young vidwans. Youngsters may not get direct performance opportunities in sabhas but one can go to that level by slowly giving concerts in functions, temples and on television(which is quite possible nowadays in certain channels like Mega TV).

Are the senior vidwans who by sheer past performance continue in the limelight despite disastrous performances ready to give way for these youngsters?

Well, according to me, if a youngster has talent, he/she can come forward naturally, irrespective of senior vidwans moving away/staying in the arena. There are live examples. Sikkil Gurucharan, K.Gayathri, Kunnakkudi Balamuralikrishna, Prasanna Venkatraman, Sumithra Vasudev, etc. These performers do get a substantial audience in season concerts. People are ready to miss senior vidwans' performances to attend these youngsters' concerts. Well, variety and style are also favored by people these days! Nobody can hear the same vidwAn for years!!

Are the sabhas ready to promote the young talent in the prime slots?

Well, prime slots are like 9 pm TV slots. Only if a performer proves himself/herself by doing justice in the initial slots, can he/she be promoted to the prime slot and I think youngsters are moving up quite well. I don't know if a 7 pm slot at the Academy is a prime slot but young talents like Sikkil Gurucharan and K.Balamurali were in that slot last year!

As of now an infamous youngster is funding his performances for pakkavadyam etc and for how long he can do this?

Well, it is my humblest opinion that one must not expect much in the sangeetham field. Financial stability from CM takes a long time and the period is quite long.

Are the accompanying artists ready to play free or for a nominal fee till such time the youngster receives a good fee for his concerts to support himself and the accompanists?

Well a youngster keeps a youngster for accompaniment mostly. How can the accompanying youngster sustain himself?

Well, if a competition has fair judges and the judgements are unbiased, impartial and non-detrimental, a competition is a very good place to learn, develop knowledge and interest and to observe how co-participants perform. There are a lot of advantages too in a competition. The present day youngsters never feel drowned if they lose in competitions such as these. They are mature and understand the situation very well.

[vasanthakokilam]

I have a basic problem with the word 'Idol' and not with the competition itself. It is so jarring and more so in the context of CM. But that word in such competitions has become common place and I realize we can not do much about it.. I wonder what better word can be used for CM.

The same question is asked about American Idol, "Would a pre-beatles Lennon or McCartney have won the American Idol?" Since it is a popularity contest with the public voting, who knows...Probably not. Also the recent track record in the case of American Idol is the second and third place winners have had more commercial success and seem to have a promising career in music. But the exposure definitely helps them.

Aspiring Carnatic Music students are not new to competitions themselves. Every year, colleges in Chennai conduct CM competitions as part of the annual festivals. The judges are usually one or two CM vidwans. I think a lot of current day Chennai based CM artists have gone through that circuit. Of course here the big difference is the massive TV exposure. So while analyzing this, let us remember CM competitions have always been around, so the competition itself is not going to ruin anything. The massive exposure might.

Lastly, remember, such Idol competitions are not just for promoting the young artists or the judges or the TV network, it also promotes Carnatic Music. That can not be all that bad for CM.

[mohan]

Watched some of the episodes on youtube and was very impressed with the format and the calibre of the participants. It has given well-deserved exposure to some talented youngsters.

[VK RAMAN]

Instead of idolizing individuals, I would prefer name like "sangeetha nidhi"