Any recordings of pallavis in rare talams like misra Triputa, Simhanandana and Sarabhanandana talas? It would be nice to hear them... I've never heard a pallavi in these talams before..
Cheers
Ninja
Pallavis in rare talams
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madhyamam
- Posts: 4
- Joined: 01 Nov 2005, 09:38
Here is a RTP by Dr. Balamuralikrishna in Talam Raja Navamukhi.
http://www.asianclassicalmp3.org/bala.htm
http://www.asianclassicalmp3.org/bala.htm
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prasadvrg
- Posts: 28
- Joined: 11 Jul 2005, 12:22
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
My dear member, Ninjathegreat, There are to kinds of talas, 1) which could be rendered and 2) which should not be rendered and Sharabhanandanatala, said to have been created by Syama Sastry, pertains to the Talas which should not be rendered as it belongs to 'Samyuktanga-prastara' of the 10th element of Tala, Prastara. Most unfortunately, either Syama Sastry or his opponent Bobbili Kesavaiah, said to have been partcipated in a contest in Tanjore palace, does not have any acquaintance with Tala-prastara at all. Nobody, except myself, upon the earth knows that even the tables of Prastara said to have been written by Syama Sastry himself are containing some incorrections. But, surprisingly enough, Syama Sastry was titled as 'Talaprastara Syama Sastry' by the people who does not know even the alphabets of Talaprastara. If required I can prove this beyond any doubt.This is for the kind information of all the musicians and musicologists. amsharma.
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Vocalist
- Posts: 1030
- Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53
While this information would be...let's say...interesting, I do wonder whether this information really should be 'published' here. I somehow think that (some) people's faith in Sastry of the immortal Trinity may be shaken (unnecessarily), if it can indeed be proven that his work is incorrect. Also considering that no one else has heard this tAlA before, on recording, it seems...but I'm interested in hearing what others think about this.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
In continuation to my posting dated 02-10-2006, to make it more clear, I shall furnish some more details in respect of the incorrectness of Sharabhanandana-tala. This Sharabharandana-tala is said to have consisted of 29 Talangas and 79 Kriyas. Among these 29 Talangas, in all, there are 7 Samyuktangas of 4 varieties. Angas written one above the other are called Samyuktangas like Samyukthaksharas i.e., Aksharas written one above the other of Telugu language. These 4 varieties are 1) Druta-virama 2) Laghu-virama 3) Laghu-druta and 4) Laghu-druta-virama carrying 3, 5, 6 and 7 units respectively. Such Samyuktangas occur only in Samyuktanga-prastara of Talaprastara. So, this is named after Samyuktanga-prastara. But, in the absence of the required knowledge of Talaprastara people call it Shodashanga-prastara which is incorrect. Here, the problem arises in rendering these Samyuktangas.
As you all know there are only six Talangas and they are Anudruta, Druta, Laghu, Guru, Pluta and Kakapada. Among them the last one Kakapada is a totally soundless Anga and the remaining five Angas consist of a sounded Kriya i.e., beat in the beginning itself and the remaining Kriyas, if any, are soundless. But, while rendering the 4 varieties of the above mentioned Samyuktangas of Sharabhanandana-tala, the Virama, having become equated with the present Anudruta consisting of only one beat,
(i) the Druta-virama is rendered with 1 beat and 1 waving hand of Druta and another beat of Virama making a total of 3 Kriyas,
(ii) Laghu-virama with 1 beat and 3 finger counts of Laghu and another beat of Virama making a total of 5 Kriyas,
(iii) Laghu-druta with 1 beat and 3 finger counts of Laghu and another beat along with a waving hand for Druta making a total of 6 Kriyas and
(iv) Laghu-druta-virama with 1 beat and 3 finger counts of Laghu and another beat and waving hand for Druta and still another beat for Virama making a total of 7 Kriyas.
Even though each of these four Samyuktangas are written as a single Anga with a single identity while rendering them they are rendered separately with a multiple identity, which is incorrect. So, the rhythmical forms consisting of such Samyuktangas should not be rendered and Sharabhanandana-tala comes under this category consisting of Samyuktangas, which should not be rendered at all.
Who ever commits it, mistake is a mistake. A mistake will not become right even if a great man commits it. This is for the kind information of all musicians. amsharma.
As you all know there are only six Talangas and they are Anudruta, Druta, Laghu, Guru, Pluta and Kakapada. Among them the last one Kakapada is a totally soundless Anga and the remaining five Angas consist of a sounded Kriya i.e., beat in the beginning itself and the remaining Kriyas, if any, are soundless. But, while rendering the 4 varieties of the above mentioned Samyuktangas of Sharabhanandana-tala, the Virama, having become equated with the present Anudruta consisting of only one beat,
(i) the Druta-virama is rendered with 1 beat and 1 waving hand of Druta and another beat of Virama making a total of 3 Kriyas,
(ii) Laghu-virama with 1 beat and 3 finger counts of Laghu and another beat of Virama making a total of 5 Kriyas,
(iii) Laghu-druta with 1 beat and 3 finger counts of Laghu and another beat along with a waving hand for Druta making a total of 6 Kriyas and
(iv) Laghu-druta-virama with 1 beat and 3 finger counts of Laghu and another beat and waving hand for Druta and still another beat for Virama making a total of 7 Kriyas.
Even though each of these four Samyuktangas are written as a single Anga with a single identity while rendering them they are rendered separately with a multiple identity, which is incorrect. So, the rhythmical forms consisting of such Samyuktangas should not be rendered and Sharabhanandana-tala comes under this category consisting of Samyuktangas, which should not be rendered at all.
Who ever commits it, mistake is a mistake. A mistake will not become right even if a great man commits it. This is for the kind information of all musicians. amsharma.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear Mr. rbharath, If you are acquainted well with the Talaprastara, the 10th element of Tala you can understand it very easily. I do not know how much you are acquainted even with the six Talangas of the Tala. However, I shall again try to define it for you.
Generally, take it for example, the seriatim of Talangas of Adi-tala is one Laghu and two Drutas i.e., l 0 0. Thus these Angas are three and they are written one after the other consecutively, which indicates that they should be rendered consecutively one after the other. In such case anybody must start rendering of each one of them with a sounded beat consecutively followed by three fingers after the first beat of Laghu, followed by a waving hand after the 2nd and 3rd beats of to two Drutas. Generally, this is the usual course of writing the Talangas of a Tala. But, while writing the Samyukatangas of a Tala the respective Angas are written one above the other (which I cannot write here but can explain in person only). For example, the Samyuktanga, Laghu-druta-virama is a combinative-anga of Laghu, Druta and Virama. But, while any of the six Angas of the Tala start with a beat for each Anga, this Laghu-druta-virama has to be rendered with three beats as it is a combinative-anga of three Angas. As per rules any Anga should consist of a single beat only, but, in respect of Laghu-druta-virama, you must render it with three beats even though it is a combinative-anga which is against the normal rules. Hope you can understand it.
In fact, here lies my difficulty in explaining this Talaprastara to others who are not acquainted with it at all. This is just like speaking in a language, which is known to me only. I can very well explain this who is well acquainted with this. Most unfortunately, I am the only person alive on earth having full knowledge of it and I cannot converse with any other person as nobody has full acquaintance with this topic. Even though this is a fact, people may think that I am boosting myself by writing like this. I can’t help. Let anybody think in any way he likes. Welcome. amsharma.
Generally, take it for example, the seriatim of Talangas of Adi-tala is one Laghu and two Drutas i.e., l 0 0. Thus these Angas are three and they are written one after the other consecutively, which indicates that they should be rendered consecutively one after the other. In such case anybody must start rendering of each one of them with a sounded beat consecutively followed by three fingers after the first beat of Laghu, followed by a waving hand after the 2nd and 3rd beats of to two Drutas. Generally, this is the usual course of writing the Talangas of a Tala. But, while writing the Samyukatangas of a Tala the respective Angas are written one above the other (which I cannot write here but can explain in person only). For example, the Samyuktanga, Laghu-druta-virama is a combinative-anga of Laghu, Druta and Virama. But, while any of the six Angas of the Tala start with a beat for each Anga, this Laghu-druta-virama has to be rendered with three beats as it is a combinative-anga of three Angas. As per rules any Anga should consist of a single beat only, but, in respect of Laghu-druta-virama, you must render it with three beats even though it is a combinative-anga which is against the normal rules. Hope you can understand it.
In fact, here lies my difficulty in explaining this Talaprastara to others who are not acquainted with it at all. This is just like speaking in a language, which is known to me only. I can very well explain this who is well acquainted with this. Most unfortunately, I am the only person alive on earth having full knowledge of it and I cannot converse with any other person as nobody has full acquaintance with this topic. Even though this is a fact, people may think that I am boosting myself by writing like this. I can’t help. Let anybody think in any way he likes. Welcome. amsharma.
rbharath wrote:it is quite interesting to read msakella's post.
I am quite confused as to why tALams with samyukthAngas should not be rendered. I dint get the arguement.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9387
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
May I request that thata be translated into English language as 'clap', not as 'beat'?
'Beat' is the correct translation into English of Akshara. There are 8 beats in adi talam, not three.
This is a cause of horrible confusion to students whose first language is English!
I have also always been told that, however a musician may find it convenient in practice to put talam with a free hand, eg beating on the thigh or in the air, that the correct krya is indeed a clap, bring the right palm down onto the upfacing left palm. My authority for this is not only my own teacher, but also TVG.
'Beat' is the correct translation into English of Akshara. There are 8 beats in adi talam, not three.
This is a cause of horrible confusion to students whose first language is English!
I have also always been told that, however a musician may find it convenient in practice to put talam with a free hand, eg beating on the thigh or in the air, that the correct krya is indeed a clap, bring the right palm down onto the upfacing left palm. My authority for this is not only my own teacher, but also TVG.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear Mr. nick H, In Indian music the Akshara is used to count the duration of one unit and beat is a sounded manual act of the Tala. All Kriyas are manual actions and are of two kinds, sounded and soundless. Beat is a sounded Kriya and finger counts and waving-hands are soundless Kriyas. In Adi-tala there are 3 Kriyas of sounded beats and 5 Kriyas of soundless finger counts and waving-hands. Not 8 beats at all as you wrote. Of course, language is not a barrier at all to the invisible Fine Art, Music. But, rather than reading, this should be learnt in person from a great Guru. As you wrote, the correct manual action of Talam is a clap, bringing the right palm down onto the upfacing left palm. Strive hard to know the correct version of the things. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.
nick H wrote:May I request that thata be translated into English language as 'clap', not as 'beat'?
'Beat' is the correct translation into English of Akshara. There are 8 beats in adi talam, not three.
This is a cause of horrible confusion to students whose first language is English!
I have also always been told that, however a musician may find it convenient in practice to put talam with a free hand, eg beating on the thigh or in the air, that the correct krya is indeed a clap, bring the right palm down onto the upfacing left palm. My authority for this is not only my own teacher, but also TVG.
Last edited by msakella on 14 Oct 2006, 08:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Vocalist
- Posts: 1030
- Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53
Dear msakella
I am sincerely fascinated by, and respect your knowledge in laya aspects, and am grateful you shed light in this complex area. I am also glad you want us to be "knowing the correct version of things". However, I am disgusted at this manner of speaking and I cannot condone it: "But, surprisingly enough, Syama Sastry was titled as 'Talaprastara Syama Sastry' by the people who does not know even the alphabets of Talaprastara." How do you know for sure that ALL the people had no idea of the alphabets of Talaprastara when they called the saint; "Talaprastara Syama Sastri"? Assuming you did know for sure, this is a feature that is absolutely unnecessary to mention.
"Most unfortunately, Syama Sastry...does not have any acquaintance with Tala-prastara at all." - this is a bitter comment and strong assumption to make. It is true that "a mistake will not become right even if a great man commits it." But to me, one mistake does not equate to a person (genius or not) becoming an illiterate. I'm sure in your life, as a human, you've committed many mistakes. Even in your extensive teaching & publishing, you would've realised you made a mistake on the odd occasion...even if it's one letter of the alphabet out of place. If this is so, according to you, I'd be entitled to say you have "no acquaintance whatsoever with the alphabet of ... [whatever it might be...language, tAlA, rAgA etc.]" Case in point: humans make mistakes, but this doesn't mean they have no acquaintance with what they made a mistake in.
Once again, let me emphasise that we value what you teach on here (especially if another rasika or myself have questions for you) and I hope you will continue always. But please, if you could edit your posts accordingly and not let yourself become guilty of libel - a mistake I hope you won't make again - then all is well.
After your posting has been edited, so that the quoted details are deleted, I will request this post be deleted.
Thanks & Best Wishes
Vocalist
I am sincerely fascinated by, and respect your knowledge in laya aspects, and am grateful you shed light in this complex area. I am also glad you want us to be "knowing the correct version of things". However, I am disgusted at this manner of speaking and I cannot condone it: "But, surprisingly enough, Syama Sastry was titled as 'Talaprastara Syama Sastry' by the people who does not know even the alphabets of Talaprastara." How do you know for sure that ALL the people had no idea of the alphabets of Talaprastara when they called the saint; "Talaprastara Syama Sastri"? Assuming you did know for sure, this is a feature that is absolutely unnecessary to mention.
"Most unfortunately, Syama Sastry...does not have any acquaintance with Tala-prastara at all." - this is a bitter comment and strong assumption to make. It is true that "a mistake will not become right even if a great man commits it." But to me, one mistake does not equate to a person (genius or not) becoming an illiterate. I'm sure in your life, as a human, you've committed many mistakes. Even in your extensive teaching & publishing, you would've realised you made a mistake on the odd occasion...even if it's one letter of the alphabet out of place. If this is so, according to you, I'd be entitled to say you have "no acquaintance whatsoever with the alphabet of ... [whatever it might be...language, tAlA, rAgA etc.]" Case in point: humans make mistakes, but this doesn't mean they have no acquaintance with what they made a mistake in.
Once again, let me emphasise that we value what you teach on here (especially if another rasika or myself have questions for you) and I hope you will continue always. But please, if you could edit your posts accordingly and not let yourself become guilty of libel - a mistake I hope you won't make again - then all is well.
After your posting has been edited, so that the quoted details are deleted, I will request this post be deleted.
Thanks & Best Wishes
Vocalist
Last edited by Vocalist on 19 Oct 2006, 21:10, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, Vocalist, Extremely sorry if my speaking did hurt you. I did not mean it that way.
I don’t mean or need to defame anybody. I am only an old Matriculate and my language must have hurt you, which, in fact, I don’t mean.
I have every respect upon Shyama Shastry like any other musician. That does not mean that I should not tell anything against him in saving the standards of Shastra. But, as per the history (it may be or may not be true at all), the Tala, Sharabhanandana, said to have been created by him, is a Tala not to be rendered. Even my Parama Guru, Sangeeta Kalanidhi Dr. S. Pinakapani accepted this.
I, myself, am not an exception at all of committing mistakes. Then, how can I point out others mistakes? But, committing blunders in general life is different with committing mistakes in writing books that influence a generation itself. Thus, in the interest of saving the standards of our Shastras I, as a known person, brought these details out. In the same interest I also brought out a book, Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara - with a critical interpretation on the BLUNDERS committed by Nisshanka Sharngadeva, the Great. I feel extremely painful while the blunders committed by all other authors put together in this respect costed 40 years of my life.
Yes, by the grace of the Almighty, I can declare myself as the only person alive upon earth knowing the full details of Talaprastara. All my 3 books, 1) Indian genius in Talaprastara, 2) Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara - with a critical interpretation and 3) Systematisation of the Prasrtara details of Deshi talas which the Almighty made me write as originals in the annals of our music literature bring out the correct and incorrect things of this topic. Anybody may think that I am writing all these things to boost myself. I can’t help. Still, I shall be very thankful if any person gives me the serial numbers of Simhanandana and Sharabhanandana-talas and prove their authenticity through Nashta & Uddhista.
In the interest of saving our Shastras I did this and I always do this until my last breath. People may not appreciate my acts. I can’t help!
In the process of learning things from cradle to grave I have come across many things that are not known to common people and, in turn, I am interested in bringing these things out to educate my community. This I have taken as a mission of life even without expecting any monetary benefit at all. In the light of all the above, still, if anybody feels otherwise of my writings I shall stop participating in this forum hereafter. amsharma.
I don’t mean or need to defame anybody. I am only an old Matriculate and my language must have hurt you, which, in fact, I don’t mean.
I have every respect upon Shyama Shastry like any other musician. That does not mean that I should not tell anything against him in saving the standards of Shastra. But, as per the history (it may be or may not be true at all), the Tala, Sharabhanandana, said to have been created by him, is a Tala not to be rendered. Even my Parama Guru, Sangeeta Kalanidhi Dr. S. Pinakapani accepted this.
I, myself, am not an exception at all of committing mistakes. Then, how can I point out others mistakes? But, committing blunders in general life is different with committing mistakes in writing books that influence a generation itself. Thus, in the interest of saving the standards of our Shastras I, as a known person, brought these details out. In the same interest I also brought out a book, Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara - with a critical interpretation on the BLUNDERS committed by Nisshanka Sharngadeva, the Great. I feel extremely painful while the blunders committed by all other authors put together in this respect costed 40 years of my life.
Yes, by the grace of the Almighty, I can declare myself as the only person alive upon earth knowing the full details of Talaprastara. All my 3 books, 1) Indian genius in Talaprastara, 2) Talaprastara of Nisshanka Sharngadeva’s Sangita Ratnakara - with a critical interpretation and 3) Systematisation of the Prasrtara details of Deshi talas which the Almighty made me write as originals in the annals of our music literature bring out the correct and incorrect things of this topic. Anybody may think that I am writing all these things to boost myself. I can’t help. Still, I shall be very thankful if any person gives me the serial numbers of Simhanandana and Sharabhanandana-talas and prove their authenticity through Nashta & Uddhista.
In the interest of saving our Shastras I did this and I always do this until my last breath. People may not appreciate my acts. I can’t help!
In the process of learning things from cradle to grave I have come across many things that are not known to common people and, in turn, I am interested in bringing these things out to educate my community. This I have taken as a mission of life even without expecting any monetary benefit at all. In the light of all the above, still, if anybody feels otherwise of my writings I shall stop participating in this forum hereafter. amsharma.
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rajumds
- Posts: 715
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 11:16
Sharmajimsakella wrote:Dear member, Vocalist, Extremely sorry if my speaking did hurt you. I did not mean it that way. I don’t mean or need to defame anybody. I am only an old Matriculate and my language must have hurt you, which, in fact, I don’t mean.
This happens to everyone when trying to communicate in writing in an alien language.
Please do not stop posting.
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Vocalist
- Posts: 1030
- Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53
Dear msakella,
Thanks for clarifying. To me, you are very knowledgable and learned in laya aspects. We are blessed to have you here to educate us online. My posts in this thread are only to alert you how harsh some words may sound, in the way they are put, and unfortunately, while many of us have the best intentions at heart, words are words.
In saving the standards of shastra, pointing out Syama Sastri was wrong in using the tAlA Sharabhanandhana is all that is required - not contesting his knowledge in tAlA prastAra as a whole - I'm sure you would agree, this is a broad subject.
Syama Sastri isn't referred to as a saint because of Sharabhanandana or Simahanandana alone. It's his life's work as a whole that earned him his title. I've heard a few different versions as to why he was called Tala Prastara Syama Sastri, but one of them being, he gained the title for the complexities in his compositions - not purely for his win in the competition.
Syama Sastri was not to know that his books would exert such an influence over a generation. In fact, most authors in general, including many non-indians, did not realise how valuable their work would be after their death. I'm sure, many teachers have committed blunders without realising it. It is probably why even the most famous artists of today or the yesteryears may have some flaws that they shouldn't have. However, even if one were to pick up on these flaws, we can teach these flaws so they are avoided in the future. Saying a person knows nothing, after they have passed away, is not nice at all.
Thanks for clarifying. To me, you are very knowledgable and learned in laya aspects. We are blessed to have you here to educate us online. My posts in this thread are only to alert you how harsh some words may sound, in the way they are put, and unfortunately, while many of us have the best intentions at heart, words are words.
In saving the standards of shastra, pointing out Syama Sastri was wrong in using the tAlA Sharabhanandhana is all that is required - not contesting his knowledge in tAlA prastAra as a whole - I'm sure you would agree, this is a broad subject.
Syama Sastri isn't referred to as a saint because of Sharabhanandana or Simahanandana alone. It's his life's work as a whole that earned him his title. I've heard a few different versions as to why he was called Tala Prastara Syama Sastri, but one of them being, he gained the title for the complexities in his compositions - not purely for his win in the competition.
Syama Sastri was not to know that his books would exert such an influence over a generation. In fact, most authors in general, including many non-indians, did not realise how valuable their work would be after their death. I'm sure, many teachers have committed blunders without realising it. It is probably why even the most famous artists of today or the yesteryears may have some flaws that they shouldn't have. However, even if one were to pick up on these flaws, we can teach these flaws so they are avoided in the future. Saying a person knows nothing, after they have passed away, is not nice at all.
Last edited by Vocalist on 20 Oct 2006, 13:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Vocalist
- Posts: 1030
- Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53
I don't believe you are writing to "show off". It is praiseworthy you have dedicated and committed your life to educating the community as a whole. But if someone has committed a 'blunder', then please just point it out once - please don't include any unnecessary bitterness, especially about a person who has passed away.
Dedicating 40 years of life to this subject was your choice. Being frustrated that it took so many years because of blunders or mistakes of someone else, does not equate to them being illiterate. Your bitterness towards them is the part to avoid including when educating us - this is really all that I am asking from you. To me, avoiding this element is easy and would make your lessons better than they are already.
Please forgive me if I've said anything wrong, or have offended / infuriated you - this is not my intention. Including myself, no one wants you to stop posting.
Thanking you for your time, dedication, effort and help overall,
Vocalist
Dedicating 40 years of life to this subject was your choice. Being frustrated that it took so many years because of blunders or mistakes of someone else, does not equate to them being illiterate. Your bitterness towards them is the part to avoid including when educating us - this is really all that I am asking from you. To me, avoiding this element is easy and would make your lessons better than they are already.
Please forgive me if I've said anything wrong, or have offended / infuriated you - this is not my intention. Including myself, no one wants you to stop posting.
Thanking you for your time, dedication, effort and help overall,
Vocalist
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, Vocalist, As all are aware Shyama Shastry was a great Devi-bhakta, great Upasaka and a great composer and I have every respect towards him. But, if the people of that stature commit a mistake knowingly or un-knowingly, that influences the common people and all others follow it blindly and authentically. Even Sangita Kalanidhi Dr. S. Pinakapani, my Parama-guru, was influenced in this respect and demonstrated this Sharabhanandana-tala when I have gone to him to take his blessings. Then, being aware of all the details of Talaprastara, I am constrained to bring out the incorrectness of this Tala. Being a very knowledgeable and intelligent person, he blindly followed the footsteps of Shyama Shastry and only after a long discussion he agreed with me. Then what about a common man?
Generally, many people are highly interested in becoming authors by writing one book or other in their lifetime only to get fame and money but not to properly educate the society through their works. And in this process many authors pose as if they know everything but commit umpteen mistakes, which, in turn, influence the younger generation. This topic, Talaprastara , consists of material 100 times more than all the other nine elements of Tala put together. While such invaluable and complex subject was left unexplained by some of the authors as ‘of no practical value and irrelevant to the present day music’ some others skipped over it ‘for fear of enlargement’ of their work which in most cases happens to be a lame excuse rather than true. Even at this age of 70 I never feel lazy and leave things away leniently. That is why I took this topic for my research, of course on my own choice, not for getting a Doctorate but to solve for ever an unsolved problem of my music community. I could not leave it to the fate of my music community. Only by the grace of the Almighty I could solve it. Only a person who can go deep into this topic can imagine how much hardship I have undergone in the process of my research, which took 40 long years of my life. I have even sacrificed some of my artist-life to bring this topic out. Had my forefathers in music, who are far more capable and more intelligent than me, solved this problem long ago, I would not have struggled for so long a period of 40 years of my life.
Most surprisingly, while the author Nisshanka Sharngadeva himself furnished altered figures of some tables, the Sanskrit commentator, Chatura Kallinatha himself furnished some incorrect figures, the editor Pandit Subrahmanya Shastry misinterpreted the versions and at last even the last editor contributed his/her might in making a whole mess of it. Believe it or not, in this kind of disgusted atmosphere I have struggled for this for 40 long years. Having gone beyond a saturated point in this process I myself feel that, sometimes, this ignites a rapid fire in me. Bygones are bygones. While defining things, please don’t take it serious if I am a little harsh in my language in which I am not familiar much. I am always interested only in saving the standards of our music community but not in individuals at all.
I never take such things serious and, at the same time I thank you for not taking anything serious. We both shall discuss the subject matters through our postings only to bring out the truth.
Thanking you once again, Ever yours, amsharma.
Generally, many people are highly interested in becoming authors by writing one book or other in their lifetime only to get fame and money but not to properly educate the society through their works. And in this process many authors pose as if they know everything but commit umpteen mistakes, which, in turn, influence the younger generation. This topic, Talaprastara , consists of material 100 times more than all the other nine elements of Tala put together. While such invaluable and complex subject was left unexplained by some of the authors as ‘of no practical value and irrelevant to the present day music’ some others skipped over it ‘for fear of enlargement’ of their work which in most cases happens to be a lame excuse rather than true. Even at this age of 70 I never feel lazy and leave things away leniently. That is why I took this topic for my research, of course on my own choice, not for getting a Doctorate but to solve for ever an unsolved problem of my music community. I could not leave it to the fate of my music community. Only by the grace of the Almighty I could solve it. Only a person who can go deep into this topic can imagine how much hardship I have undergone in the process of my research, which took 40 long years of my life. I have even sacrificed some of my artist-life to bring this topic out. Had my forefathers in music, who are far more capable and more intelligent than me, solved this problem long ago, I would not have struggled for so long a period of 40 years of my life.
Most surprisingly, while the author Nisshanka Sharngadeva himself furnished altered figures of some tables, the Sanskrit commentator, Chatura Kallinatha himself furnished some incorrect figures, the editor Pandit Subrahmanya Shastry misinterpreted the versions and at last even the last editor contributed his/her might in making a whole mess of it. Believe it or not, in this kind of disgusted atmosphere I have struggled for this for 40 long years. Having gone beyond a saturated point in this process I myself feel that, sometimes, this ignites a rapid fire in me. Bygones are bygones. While defining things, please don’t take it serious if I am a little harsh in my language in which I am not familiar much. I am always interested only in saving the standards of our music community but not in individuals at all.
I never take such things serious and, at the same time I thank you for not taking anything serious. We both shall discuss the subject matters through our postings only to bring out the truth.
Thanking you once again, Ever yours, amsharma.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
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Nick H
- Posts: 9387
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
clap is a sounded kriya. Beat is a unit of a time cycle.msakella wrote:Dear Mr. nick H, In Indian music the Akshara is used to count the duration of one unit and beat is a sounded manual act of the Tala. All Kriyas are manual actions and are of two kinds, sounded and soundless. Beat is a sounded Kriya and finger counts and waving-hands are soundless Kriyas. In Adi-tala there are 3 Kriyas of sounded beats and 5 Kriyas of soundless finger counts and waving-hands. Not 8 beats at all as you wrote. Of course, language is not a barrier at all to the invisible Fine Art, Music. But, rather than reading, this should be learnt in person from a great Guru. As you wrote, the correct manual action of Talam is a clap, bringing the right palm down onto the upfacing left palm. Strive hard to know the correct version of the things. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.
I am no tala vidwan, but I am a native English speaker.
My tiny knowledge comes not from books, but from my guruji.
I have experienced first hand the confusion of learning as a non-Indian-Language speaker, and I have seen the confusion sufferred, even among Tamil speakers, by those learning in a Western environment.
My wish is that this confusion should not be suffered! Some of our carnatic rhythm concepts are hard to grasp, there is no reason that they should be made harder by the fact that translation has been done by non-native English speakers.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9387
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
A little more...
In English language, music is divided into bars, each bar consisting of a number of beats. A bar is exactly one tala cycle. Thus, explaining Adi Talam in English: it is an Eight-Beat Bar.
Just as raga cannot be simply transcribed into Western notation, I know that tala cannot be exactly expressed as I have just done, for that lacks information about its structure.
However it remains true that an avartanam of adi talam is an eight-beat bar, just as it is also true that all carnatic "eight-beat bars" are not adi talam!
The language of carnatic music is exactly that! We have no need to argue about what an akshara is, or what the angas of adi talam are: if we use these terms we are all 'speaking the same language'.
But once we choose to speak outside of Tamil, Telegu, Sanscrit --- in French, German, Italian, English or whatever language we must try hard to speak that language as it understood by the speakers rather than as it was understood (or misunderstood) by the translator of a textbook.
I have spent many long hours with my guruji discussing, questioning, even disagreeing and arguing (and often eventually finding I was wrong) on the translation of concepts into English. It certainly helped me grasp at least the basics, and I think that I (and his other English students) helped him to teach in the native language of his adopted country.
(I'm sorry about our language... A bar is also somewhere one drinks alcohol, or a piece of metal, or a ban imposed on someone. Beat is also to hit something (eg one's thigh with one's palm!), or what a violent man does to his wife or what the winning cricket team does to the losers :/ )
And I'm also sorry that I have helped to take this thread away from the subject of it's title...
In English language, music is divided into bars, each bar consisting of a number of beats. A bar is exactly one tala cycle. Thus, explaining Adi Talam in English: it is an Eight-Beat Bar.
Just as raga cannot be simply transcribed into Western notation, I know that tala cannot be exactly expressed as I have just done, for that lacks information about its structure.
However it remains true that an avartanam of adi talam is an eight-beat bar, just as it is also true that all carnatic "eight-beat bars" are not adi talam!
The language of carnatic music is exactly that! We have no need to argue about what an akshara is, or what the angas of adi talam are: if we use these terms we are all 'speaking the same language'.
But once we choose to speak outside of Tamil, Telegu, Sanscrit --- in French, German, Italian, English or whatever language we must try hard to speak that language as it understood by the speakers rather than as it was understood (or misunderstood) by the translator of a textbook.
I have spent many long hours with my guruji discussing, questioning, even disagreeing and arguing (and often eventually finding I was wrong) on the translation of concepts into English. It certainly helped me grasp at least the basics, and I think that I (and his other English students) helped him to teach in the native language of his adopted country.
(I'm sorry about our language... A bar is also somewhere one drinks alcohol, or a piece of metal, or a ban imposed on someone. Beat is also to hit something (eg one's thigh with one's palm!), or what a violent man does to his wife or what the winning cricket team does to the losers :/ )
And I'm also sorry that I have helped to take this thread away from the subject of it's title...
msakella wrote:Dear Mr. nick H, In Indian music the Akshara is used to count the duration of one unit and beat is a sounded manual act of the Tala. All Kriyas are manual actions and are of two kinds, sounded and soundless. Beat is a sounded Kriya and finger counts and waving-hands are soundless Kriyas. In Adi-tala there are 3 Kriyas of sounded beats and 5 Kriyas of soundless finger counts and waving-hands. Not 8 beats at all as you wrote. Of course, language is not a barrier at all to the invisible Fine Art, Music. But, rather than reading, this should be learnt in person from a great Guru. As you wrote, the correct manual action of Talam is a clap, bringing the right palm down onto the upfacing left palm. Strive hard to know the correct version of the things. Wishing you all the best, amsharma.
Last edited by Guest on 23 Oct 2006, 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
- Posts: 16802
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
After what the experts have to say, here is something a learner would like to say ( at kindergarten level). I speak for those beginners who are at my level too--who are from the four corners of the world. Standardization of terms is a good idea. If it is meant for the english readers--as we all are in this forum--isn't it better to use the sanskrit word and its corresponding english meaning? If the guide is in an indian language, it better be the expression in that particular language AND the words in other languages given in parentheses. That way, we would get familiar with various expressions which all mean the same. In sAhityA, you would find us speaking of meanings in different languages (words nearly sound the same and sometimes not). Yes, it minimizes confusion. It is like Mount Road and Anna Salai. If an old timer said Mount Road, many would know what he means and say, yes, you mean Anna Salai.
Yes, a guide to terms in Laya with definitions and the exact word meaning in other languages (not borrowed at will) would make it easier for all...
Yes, a guide to terms in Laya with definitions and the exact word meaning in other languages (not borrowed at will) would make it easier for all...
Last edited by arasi on 24 Oct 2006, 02:23, edited 1 time in total.
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kkumar29
- Posts: 46
- Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 20:26
I can sympathize with Nick's problem. I had the same issue following some of the discussions with beat and was getting confused. When you take ballroom dancing classes the first instruction given to you is to listen to the beat, and then dance to the beat. I suspect the translation of "adi" and "veechu" in tamil becomes beat and wave, and lot of times native non-english speakers do not realize that the word beat carries a lot more meaning than they are aware of. Nick has explained a few. So I think Arasi's request of writing the original word and then its meaning makes lot of sense. At least it would have avoided lot of cofusion for me in following some of the discussions.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, Vocalist, Nearly 20 years back, on the request of my bosom friend Dr. N.Ramanathan, Prof. and Head of the Dept., of Indian Music, Madras University, I sat in Hotel Dasaprakash, Madras for 15 days and helped Dr. Robert Brown in compiling all the Talas from a number of manuscripts he had collected from various places of our country and, thus, I have gathered umpteen lists of Talas with me and there is no other Tala where Samyuktangas are utilized in the annals of our music literature, except Sharabhanandana. Had there been another Tala like Sharabhanandana, in which Samyuktangas are utilized, I would have pointed out even that Tala also. I have no intention of defaming the image of Shyama Shastry at all.
Generally, titles are given relatively to their capacity, like Pallavi Gopala Iyer being adept in Pallavi singing, Todi Sitaramiah being adept in singing Todi and so on. Thus, the title ‘Talaprastara Shyama Shastry’ must have been given thinking that he is adept in Talaprastara.
Composing compositions with complexities must earn a different kind of title, but not "Talaprastara Shyama Shastry’ at all. However, I am also interested in knowing those other versions as to why he was called ‘Talaprastara Shyama Shastry’. If possible, kindly pass them on to me. I have already written 3 books of their kind on Talaprastara. If I am aware of these other versions I can possibly take some more care in modifying my books even now, to avoid any controversies to be cropped up even after my demise.
3 x 3 = 9 and if anybody tells it is 8 or 10, being a mathematical blunder, I think, anybody will have every right to point it out irrespective of the person and his condition at any time and place. However, still I shall be very thankful to you if you find a person who can give me the serial numbers of Simhanandana and Sharabhanandana-talas and prove their authenticity. Thanking you again for your discussion, amsharma.
Generally, titles are given relatively to their capacity, like Pallavi Gopala Iyer being adept in Pallavi singing, Todi Sitaramiah being adept in singing Todi and so on. Thus, the title ‘Talaprastara Shyama Shastry’ must have been given thinking that he is adept in Talaprastara.
Composing compositions with complexities must earn a different kind of title, but not "Talaprastara Shyama Shastry’ at all. However, I am also interested in knowing those other versions as to why he was called ‘Talaprastara Shyama Shastry’. If possible, kindly pass them on to me. I have already written 3 books of their kind on Talaprastara. If I am aware of these other versions I can possibly take some more care in modifying my books even now, to avoid any controversies to be cropped up even after my demise.
3 x 3 = 9 and if anybody tells it is 8 or 10, being a mathematical blunder, I think, anybody will have every right to point it out irrespective of the person and his condition at any time and place. However, still I shall be very thankful to you if you find a person who can give me the serial numbers of Simhanandana and Sharabhanandana-talas and prove their authenticity. Thanking you again for your discussion, amsharma.
Last edited by msakella on 24 Oct 2006, 10:53, edited 1 time in total.
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msakella
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Dear member, nickH, True. Some of the technical terms have been used erroneously. The Gurus in a manner, which their Gurus have used them, have carried them out. More over, some of the authors, who wish to claim themselves as authors, have misused them and their descendants have to suffer. It is a birthright to write one book or other, which may be or may not be useful to the community, and to claim themselves as authors. We cannot help!
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Nick H
- Posts: 9387
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I agree with arasi, we should, so far as possible, use the native terms in our discussions --- and I would guess that in this forum that is mostly the case.
But there has to be a starting point, where a person asks, "what does that mean?" and it is there that we can and should revise the translations and make them better, we must not be fixed in an XXX=YYY mentality, but must look for better, possibly even more up-to-date words. 3*3=9 is fine for numbers: indeed nothing else will do! But with words we must have more flexibility.
When I first met my teacher, he had been in UK for a year. He had the attitude that what he taught was to be memorised, not questioned. Ten years later he gets frustrated when people don't ask questions!
There are few native English speakers who have achieved real proficiency and understanding in mridangam (and I'm certainly not one) --- a handful in USA, David Nelson comes to mind, Pete Lockett in UK
(I guess we should now include one of the world's greatest mridangists, Trichy Sanakaranan, as a native English speaker, after his decades teaching in Canada...)
I used to think that maybe I would write a book one day; my guruji's teachings in my English. But now I have not been learning or practising for some time I fear that that will probably never happen
But we can all help by trying to understand from the vidwans and then making good translation into our own native tongues.
But there has to be a starting point, where a person asks, "what does that mean?" and it is there that we can and should revise the translations and make them better, we must not be fixed in an XXX=YYY mentality, but must look for better, possibly even more up-to-date words. 3*3=9 is fine for numbers: indeed nothing else will do! But with words we must have more flexibility.
When I first met my teacher, he had been in UK for a year. He had the attitude that what he taught was to be memorised, not questioned. Ten years later he gets frustrated when people don't ask questions!
There are few native English speakers who have achieved real proficiency and understanding in mridangam (and I'm certainly not one) --- a handful in USA, David Nelson comes to mind, Pete Lockett in UK
(I guess we should now include one of the world's greatest mridangists, Trichy Sanakaranan, as a native English speaker, after his decades teaching in Canada...)
I used to think that maybe I would write a book one day; my guruji's teachings in my English. But now I have not been learning or practising for some time I fear that that will probably never happen
But we can all help by trying to understand from the vidwans and then making good translation into our own native tongues.
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SangithaRasika
- Posts: 79
- Joined: 11 Mar 2006, 22:41
Dear msakella,
After reading your posts, I am Just speculating whether this Talaprastara in question be written by someone (like taking notes) and he/she might have made a mistake ? OR can it also be that the origial copy got lost or something like that and a copy of it passed on to us which might have been copied wrong ? OR the notes are written originally by Shyama Shastri ? I am sure you would have considered this in your research.
Just curious ... Neither defending or offending Shyama Shastri here !!
SR
After reading your posts, I am Just speculating whether this Talaprastara in question be written by someone (like taking notes) and he/she might have made a mistake ? OR can it also be that the origial copy got lost or something like that and a copy of it passed on to us which might have been copied wrong ? OR the notes are written originally by Shyama Shastri ? I am sure you would have considered this in your research.
Just curious ... Neither defending or offending Shyama Shastri here !!
SR
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arulguna
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 20 Oct 2006, 03:48
In regards to the confusion suffered from translation, I have Robert Brown's "Mridanga: A Study of Drumming in South India", and in it he states:
"One of the major problems in any study of indian music is terminology. The technical terms used in the theory of rhythm comprise a large vocabulary of words from Sanskrit as well as from other Indian languages. Many of these terms are precise, and have no exact equivalent in English. Others may be transliterated but suffer in the process of becoming less specific. Part of the latter problem arises from the fact that the development of rhythmic theory in western music has been almost completely neglected until recent times. Words like "rhythm' and 'beat', are so diffuse in meaning that the first task of the theorist in this area must be the sometimes lengthy redefinition of his terms."
Therefore, i guess it does not matter what English term you use, as long as you have defined it precisely before using it. Thanks
"One of the major problems in any study of indian music is terminology. The technical terms used in the theory of rhythm comprise a large vocabulary of words from Sanskrit as well as from other Indian languages. Many of these terms are precise, and have no exact equivalent in English. Others may be transliterated but suffer in the process of becoming less specific. Part of the latter problem arises from the fact that the development of rhythmic theory in western music has been almost completely neglected until recent times. Words like "rhythm' and 'beat', are so diffuse in meaning that the first task of the theorist in this area must be the sometimes lengthy redefinition of his terms."
Therefore, i guess it does not matter what English term you use, as long as you have defined it precisely before using it. Thanks
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Vocalist
- Posts: 1030
- Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53
lol SR, how neutral of you! 
Dear msakella,
You yourself have pointed out that the titles "generally" are given relatively to people's capacity. So, despite what I or any other person may or may not have heard, this isn't always the case. He is beyond our time, so we can question whether he deserved it or not, but can never be certain he didn't deserve it, nor can we be sure that there was no exception in his case.
By the way, what would be the 'appropriate' title(s) that Syama Sastri should've earned for the complexities in his compositions? Why can't it be talaprastara?
Thanks.
Vocalist
Dear msakella,
You yourself have pointed out that the titles "generally" are given relatively to people's capacity. So, despite what I or any other person may or may not have heard, this isn't always the case. He is beyond our time, so we can question whether he deserved it or not, but can never be certain he didn't deserve it, nor can we be sure that there was no exception in his case.
By the way, what would be the 'appropriate' title(s) that Syama Sastri should've earned for the complexities in his compositions? Why can't it be talaprastara?
Thanks.
Vocalist
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, Sangitha Rasika, In my extensive research on Talaprastara spread over a period of 40 years, from 1963 to 2002, I have found only 15 works written between 13th and 20th centuries and, most unfortunately, none of these works is an exception from having mistakes. More over, the main secrets of this topic have never been defined clearly by any author of any century in any language. Only two authors among them seem to have acquainted with these secrets but wrote nothing about them in their works. In fact, all these authors are so great that I am in no way competent to stand before any one of them. But, the Almighty, with all His grace, blessed me with all these details and made me write three books, the originals of their kind, on this rarest topic and all these latent secrets.
As you wrote, while taking notes from a book written by someone else, Shyama Shastry must have copied in a different way un-knowingly and un-intentionally. As you wrote, it can also be that the original copy got lost and a wrongly copied version of that must have been passed on to us. As you wrote, I can tell that this notes written by Shyama shastry is not the original at all. There is every possibility of such things and we cannot and need not blame Shyama shastry, the Great Bhakta of the Divine Mother. I am also not blaming, I never want to blame and I should not blame him and who am I to blame him for his lack of knowledge in Talaprastara. More over, is having the knowledge of Talaprastara only the criteria? No! Not at all!
I have brought all these details through my postings only to educate the younger generation in these aspects. That’s all. Not to blame anybody at all. Some people may not like it, for the truth is always bitter. Thanking you for your detailed posting, amsharma.
As you wrote, while taking notes from a book written by someone else, Shyama Shastry must have copied in a different way un-knowingly and un-intentionally. As you wrote, it can also be that the original copy got lost and a wrongly copied version of that must have been passed on to us. As you wrote, I can tell that this notes written by Shyama shastry is not the original at all. There is every possibility of such things and we cannot and need not blame Shyama shastry, the Great Bhakta of the Divine Mother. I am also not blaming, I never want to blame and I should not blame him and who am I to blame him for his lack of knowledge in Talaprastara. More over, is having the knowledge of Talaprastara only the criteria? No! Not at all!
I have brought all these details through my postings only to educate the younger generation in these aspects. That’s all. Not to blame anybody at all. Some people may not like it, for the truth is always bitter. Thanking you for your detailed posting, amsharma.
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msakella
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- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, arulguna, Yes, you are right. As you wrote, the major problem is not with the terminology of Indian music but with the person who studies it and carries it out. Generally, musicians want to sing much but never want to study or verify the Shastra (they prefer to have their own individual Shastra). Thank you, amsharma.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, Vocalist, A person who is acquainted only with the complexities of compositions but not with the detailed knowledge of Talaprastara at all, can dare to declare that he certainly deserves this title. It is but natural. Of course, I may not be able to convince such a person who is not acquainted with the detailed knowledge of Talaprastara at all. Thanks, amsharma.
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SangithaRasika
- Posts: 79
- Joined: 11 Mar 2006, 22:41
Dear msakella,
I was just seeing this in a different angle. ALso, please note that I wasnt intending to say that you were blaming SS at all !! I was just curious to know whether there were any manuscripts of SS available till this data OR they were jsut copies by someother authors !!
But please keep enlightning us and pass on your knowledge to all in this amazing group !!
Regards,
SR
I was just seeing this in a different angle. ALso, please note that I wasnt intending to say that you were blaming SS at all !! I was just curious to know whether there were any manuscripts of SS available till this data OR they were jsut copies by someother authors !!
But please keep enlightning us and pass on your knowledge to all in this amazing group !!
Regards,
SR
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, Sangitha Rasika, Very many thanks for taking all this in a positive way. In the book, Great Composers, written by Prof. P. Sambamurthy, some tables along with some figures relating to Talaprastara, said to have been written by Shyama Shastry himself, were furnished in "Tamil-grantha-bhasha’ and I have got them deciphered through one of my friends many years back. When I have verified them I found some of the figures are incorrect. So, I got them verified again through my friend to ensure of their incorrectness. The anecdote relating to the competition held between Shyama Shastry and Bibbili Keshaviah in those days was also furnished in this book along with the Talangas of Sharabhanandna-tala. Then only I found that this is a Tala which should not be rendered.
People do many things ignorantly or innocently. But, there lies the responsibility of the knowledgeable persons to guide the younger generation in a proper manner just to keep our great culture intact. The same thing I did.
To tell the fact, now-a-days, many people are singing Pallavis in different nadais in each Avarta of Tala changing the nadai of every Kriya every time, shortening one Kriya to accommodate a nadai carrying lower number of units and elongating another Kriya to accommodate another nadai carrying higher number of units which is a blunder. Nowhere it is written that this is wrong. But, in such cases we have to take the Mridangam-play as authentic. For example, in a Tani-avarta the Mridangam-player goes on changing the nadai every time. But, even without changing the duration of any Kriya of the Tala at all he goes on changing the nadai only. This is correct. Everybody has the liberty of changing the nadai but in a disciplined manner without shortening or elongating the duration of any of the Kriyas of the Tala. For example, there is a unique demonstration of Tala, Pancha-mukhi, in which the five nadais have to be rendered simultaneously by the artist incorporating five different limbs, both the hands, both the legs and head of his body to render them simultaneously. Presently Mr. Sadgurucharan, Mridangam Staff Artist, All India Radio, Vijayawada (Mobile No.94407-09994), is the only person alive upon earth who can demonstrate not only one kind of Pancha-mukhi but all the different kinds of Pancha-mukhis also. The is the correct way of nadai change. This is for your kind information.
People do many things ignorantly or innocently. But, there lies the responsibility of the knowledgeable persons to guide the younger generation in a proper manner just to keep our great culture intact. The same thing I did.
To tell the fact, now-a-days, many people are singing Pallavis in different nadais in each Avarta of Tala changing the nadai of every Kriya every time, shortening one Kriya to accommodate a nadai carrying lower number of units and elongating another Kriya to accommodate another nadai carrying higher number of units which is a blunder. Nowhere it is written that this is wrong. But, in such cases we have to take the Mridangam-play as authentic. For example, in a Tani-avarta the Mridangam-player goes on changing the nadai every time. But, even without changing the duration of any Kriya of the Tala at all he goes on changing the nadai only. This is correct. Everybody has the liberty of changing the nadai but in a disciplined manner without shortening or elongating the duration of any of the Kriyas of the Tala. For example, there is a unique demonstration of Tala, Pancha-mukhi, in which the five nadais have to be rendered simultaneously by the artist incorporating five different limbs, both the hands, both the legs and head of his body to render them simultaneously. Presently Mr. Sadgurucharan, Mridangam Staff Artist, All India Radio, Vijayawada (Mobile No.94407-09994), is the only person alive upon earth who can demonstrate not only one kind of Pancha-mukhi but all the different kinds of Pancha-mukhis also. The is the correct way of nadai change. This is for your kind information.
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Vocalist
- Posts: 1030
- Joined: 19 Feb 2006, 18:53
Yes, and thanks rajumds. I think it has come to the stage where we need a separate thread on talaprastara.
The full extent of this so called 'detailed knowledge' needs to be explained. Especially considering that this "title-stripping" of Syama Sastri is still not explained. This is not an invitation for book references or guru references and the like. This is a straight invitation to explain it clearly and succinctly, or else, these claims remain unreasonable and invalid until such a time. I am hoping that others who may/can express some of what is said in a better way, will help also, including nick H, vasanthakokilam etc.
If it means starting from scratch on the absolute basics, then that's where we will have to start. I fear this is going to be frustrating for more than one person though, including me.
The full extent of this so called 'detailed knowledge' needs to be explained. Especially considering that this "title-stripping" of Syama Sastri is still not explained. This is not an invitation for book references or guru references and the like. This is a straight invitation to explain it clearly and succinctly, or else, these claims remain unreasonable and invalid until such a time. I am hoping that others who may/can express some of what is said in a better way, will help also, including nick H, vasanthakokilam etc.
If it means starting from scratch on the absolute basics, then that's where we will have to start. I fear this is going to be frustrating for more than one person though, including me.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear member, rajumds, If you all feel so we shall start a separate thread ‘talaprastara’. I appreciate your interest in knowing new things. If you want to learn I shall give you all one book (English version) each as my complimentary copy. You can send somebody to collect them and, in turn, to send them to you. If not, if you happen to go over to my place, Hyderabad, please drop in and I shall give them to you in person. It is easier to explain this topic than going through it individually. It takes one week at the least to fully explain this topic but even one month is not enough at all if you go through it individually. Choice is yours. If you first learn this topic in person up to some extent then it is easier to learn by correspondence. amsharma.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear members, arulguna & mohan, Few months back Mr.Sadgurucharan gave a Lecture-demonstration in this city, Hyderabad and I have attended this. Then I have scribbled some notes about the details of rendering the different gatis with different limbs but misplaced it somewhere. Even though I wish to retain it I am unable to do so at this old age. So, I shall contact Mr. Sadgurucharan as early as possible and tell him to join this forum as a member and write postings accordingly to clear off all your queries. OK. Thank you. amsharma.
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msakella
- Posts: 2127
- Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16
Dear members, arulguna & mohan, Last night I spoke to Mr.Sadgurucharan who is presently in Trivandrum on a concert tour. He contacts me again on Sunday and then I shall give him all the details to contact you. OK.
In another thread, Most reliable Shruti instrument, I have elaborated an Electronic-automatic-tambura of 3 octaves and gave some more details that there is every possibility of demonstrating this instrument in the forthcoming season of the Music Academy, Chennai, if they invite me to do so. Yesterday, this is finalized and, now, having been invited by the authorities of the Music Academy, Chennai, I am going to demonstrate this instrument in the forthcoming season on 17-12-2006, Sunday around 9-30 a.m. I take this opportunity to invite my brother and sister members to this demonstration to see this unique Shruti instrument. To attend this I shall arrive at Chennai in the morning on 16-12-2006 and stay with my disciple, Chi. Sow. Revathy S. Krishnan (Res.Ph: 044 - 22434263, Mobile - 9381043208). Some copies of all my books are kept with my disciple (they all are available at Karnatic Music Book Centre, Chennai also) and if you send somebody I shall give him/her the complimentary copies of the book, Indian Genius of Talaprastara (English), in turn, to dispatch them to you. And, more over, if any one of you happens to be at Chennai at this time and is interested in learning this topic, I shall make it convenient to remain some more days at Chennai to enable you to do so. If you kindly inform me your convenience well in advance, within a week, I shall make my train reservations accordingly. amsharma.
In another thread, Most reliable Shruti instrument, I have elaborated an Electronic-automatic-tambura of 3 octaves and gave some more details that there is every possibility of demonstrating this instrument in the forthcoming season of the Music Academy, Chennai, if they invite me to do so. Yesterday, this is finalized and, now, having been invited by the authorities of the Music Academy, Chennai, I am going to demonstrate this instrument in the forthcoming season on 17-12-2006, Sunday around 9-30 a.m. I take this opportunity to invite my brother and sister members to this demonstration to see this unique Shruti instrument. To attend this I shall arrive at Chennai in the morning on 16-12-2006 and stay with my disciple, Chi. Sow. Revathy S. Krishnan (Res.Ph: 044 - 22434263, Mobile - 9381043208). Some copies of all my books are kept with my disciple (they all are available at Karnatic Music Book Centre, Chennai also) and if you send somebody I shall give him/her the complimentary copies of the book, Indian Genius of Talaprastara (English), in turn, to dispatch them to you. And, more over, if any one of you happens to be at Chennai at this time and is interested in learning this topic, I shall make it convenient to remain some more days at Chennai to enable you to do so. If you kindly inform me your convenience well in advance, within a week, I shall make my train reservations accordingly. amsharma.