Chitravina N. Ravikiran @ Broomfield, CO on Oct 16th, 2010

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 18 Oct 2010, 21:55

Chitravina N. Ravikiran @ Broomfield, CO
Date: 10/16/2010
Venue: Broomfield Library Auditorium, Broomfield, CO
Chitravina: Sri N. Ravikiran
Mridangam: Sri Trichy Sankaran
Violin: Smt. Priya Hariharan

Legend:
r â€“ rAga sketch
R â€“ rAga AlApanA
S â€“ svaram
T â€“ tani Avarthanam

Welcome speech by Smt. Gayathri Krishnamurthy
1. tuLasidaLamulachE â€“ mAyAmALavagouLa â€“ rUpaka â€“ tyAgarAjasvAmi (r, S @ sarasIruha punnAga)
2. rAmabhaktisAmrAjyam â€“ Suddha bangALa â€“ Adi â€“ tyAgarAjasvAmi (S @ rAma bhakti)
3. pAvanagurupavanapurAdISam â€“ hamsAnandi â€“ miSrachApu â€“ T G Krishnayyar (R, S @ pujitavidhi purandharam)
****Intermission****
4. chintayamAkandamUla â€“ bhairavi â€“ rUpaka â€“ muttusvAmi dIkSitar (R, S @ mangaLakara mandahAsa, T)
Vote of Thanks by Smt. Meera Vishwanathan
5. apadUrukulOnainTinE (jAvaLi) â€“ khamAs â€“ Adi â€“ pattAbhirAmayyA (r)
6. kUrvEl pazhitta vizhiyAlE (tiruppugazh) â€“ madhyamAvathi â€“ Adi (kanDa gati) â€“ aruNagirinAthar
7. pavamAna (mangaLam) â€“ sourAStram â€“ Adi â€“ tyAgarAjagasvami

Denver metro area has not had any senior artiste visit and perform in the past 7 years or so. Sri N. Ravikiran and Sri Trichy Sankaran ended this drought for us very well. We had advertised that it would be an evening of sublime music which it indeed turned out to be. We ended getting drenched in nectar! The event was attended by about 225 people. We did have a good mix of both the Indian and the American Communities in the audience. There were some technical difficulties and the concert began some 20 minutes after the scheduled time. Smt. Gayathri Krishnamurthy welcomed the artistes. Sri Ravikiran and Sri Sankaran gave a brief introduction about their instruments. Sri Sankaran gave a two minute presentation with konnakkOl as well for which audience gave him a thunderous applause. Sri Ravikiran also explained the nuances to the audience in between the songs. Smt Priya Hariharan is a student of Sri Lalgudi G. Jayaraman and a resident of Aurora, CO.

Sri Ravikiran started off with a brief sketch of mAyAmALavagouLa followed by tyAgArAjasvAmiâ€™s tuLasidaLamulachE. There was a brisk exchange of swaras between him and the violinist at sarasIruhapunnAga for about 10 minutes or so. Then, Sri Ravikiran played rAma bhakthi sAmrAjyam beautifully and ended with a round of svaras at the pallavi in two speeds. Before the commencement of the concert, I had requested Sri Ravikiran to either play SrIrAgam or hamsAnandi. Sri Ravikiran obliged to my request and played hamsAnandi. He elaborated the rAga for about 10 minutes. rAga alApAna covered all the necessary phrases to depicts beautiful colors of hamsAnandi. He played some fast phrases towards the end and the audience responded with a rapturous applause. Smt. Priya Hariharan followed him elegantly and played a short and sweet response. After this, Sri Ravikiran took up pAvanaguru pavanapurAdISam by T. G. Krishnayyar (lalitadAsa). The interesting thing about the song was that he announced and played it in miSrachApu tALa rather than the usual rUpaka tALa. He weaved an elaborate svaraprasthArA at pUjita vidhi purandharam. Sri Ravikiran never fails to enthrall ever person in the audience. I could see clearly this with all the Americans following him keenly with the tALa. Sri Sankaranâ€™s fingers were doing some mAyAjAlam (magic) along with Sri Ravikiran by now. I really understand what cajoling (konjal) was really when he accompanied Sri Ravikiran in this song. Ravikiran now and then stopped the swaras and allowed Sri Sankaran to played some beautiful korvais. The song with the rAga AlApana and the swaras went well over 30 minutes and was very satisfying.

After the intermission, Sri Ravikiran played the request of Dr. Yashoda Sagar (1st daughter of yesteryear vidvAn SrImAn vinjamUri varadarAja ayyangAr): chintayamAkandamUla of muttusvAmi dikSitar. The bhairavi AlApana lasted for about 10 minutes and was steeped in classicism. Every important phrase of bhairavi was delineated perfectly and after this, what more could one ask. Smt. Priya topped the cake with a â€œsuper sweetâ€ icing and made the first part of this section very delightful. Sri Ravikiran then took up the serene magnum opus of muttusvAmi dIkSitar on kAnchi EkambarESvarar and followed it with 2nd and 3rd kala swaras at mangaLakara mandahAsa vadanam. He showed the audience how he could excel in a vilambakAla kRti as well after playing some madhyamalakala kRtis in the first half. Sri Sankaran again was accompanying like a true champion and the cajoling continued to everyoneâ€™s delight. Even single stroke was a master stroke, truly very enjoyable. By the time Sri Sankaran finished a glorious tani avarthanam solo, it was well past 10:15pm. After the concert, the feedback was good in general for all the three artistes. Yet Sri Sankaranâ€™s tani avarthanam was special for the American Rasikas. They wanted to listen to more of his solo.

Smt. Meera Vishwanatham thanked the artistes, audience and the organizing committee and present mementos to the artistes. Then, Sri Ravikiran briefly played a khamAs rAga AlApana following it with a mellifluent pattAbhirAmayyarâ€™s jAvaLi apadurukulOlnainTinE. He concluded the concert with a tiruppugazh*** in madhyamAvathy and tyagarAjasvAmiâ€™s mangaLam. It was a delight to watch two of the greatest living legends of the south Indian form of classical music. Smt. Priya Hariharan, too, played like a perfect disciple from the LalguDi school. Getting to hear hamsAnandi elaborately was also a dream come true for me. Of course, at the end of the concert, we all felt that we could have started earlier so that we may have gotten to hear more of Sri Ravikiran as well as Sri Sankaran. We hope that we will get to hear more of them and other big artistes in the near future.

On Sunday (Oct 17th, 2010), Sri Ravikiran gave vocal classes to a select group of students. He taught us UttukkADu vEnkaTakavi's sEnApatE namOstutE (gowLa) and his own varNam in dEvamanOhari (mancchi samayamu). He also elaborated us with nuances of how to sing gouLa and dEvamanOhari.

***The tiruppugazh is yet to be indentified as Sri Ravikiran himself did not announce the words. I have asked my friend Sri Arunkumar (student of Smt. Seetha Rajan) to personally check with Sri Ravikiran when he meets him today. It will be updated accordingly.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 18 Oct 2010, 22:03

ksrimech
Nice to get a review from Colarado.Hopefully you get to hear more concerts . Any particular reason to have an intermission for a fairly short concert.

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 19 Oct 2010, 00:21

Thanks Rajeshnat. There was divided opinion on whether or not there should be a break amongst the members of the organizing committee. I personally was against it. But there was a push to sell Ravikiran's CDs and eat samosas, pakodas and bhelpuris during the break. I felt Sankaran Sir could have been given a little more time to play. There was definitely some great response from the American Rasikas regarding his playing.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 19 Oct 2010, 06:46

Krishna,
Nice to get a very good review from you. Your Denver backwoods--only when it comes to CM

--was drenched in divine music, then. What's more, you got your hamsanandi too!
Will you be there in India in December?

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 19 Oct 2010, 07:54

6. tiruppugazh â€“ madhyamAvathi â€“ Adi (kanDa naDai) â€“ aruNagirinAthar

It must have been 'kUrvEl pazhitta'.. Smts T.Mukta and T.Brinda had learnt this one from NAina piLLai.

parakal · Post by **parakal** » 19 Oct 2010, 20:51

wonderful list . is there a recording of this concert availabe? if there it would be so generous of u to share it with all of us!

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 19 Oct 2010, 22:37

Arasi - After being a part of the organizing committee, my respect for the organizers has gone up many folds. Particularly in USA, where there small groups of people who do that. It turns out to be a very difficult task to organize even one! Also, I will not be traveling to Madras till I finish my PhD now which is also round the corner.

Keerti-Thanks. We have emailed Ravikiran Sir. I will get back when he replies.

Parakal-I think there was a recording made. I need to get Ravikiran Sir's permission to share. Let me ask that too and get back.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Oct 2010, 00:49

Krishna,
I would use

instead of

Your hard work is about to reach fruition and though the last few paces are tiring, you are nearly there!
We are all on the cheering line--waiting for the good news to reach us!

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 20 Oct 2010, 01:44

Yes, I would use

if the finish lap wasn't so painful even after writing 4 out of 5 chapters. My

was only for not travelling to India in 3 years now.

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 20 Oct 2010, 03:29

Keerti-Ravikiran Sir emailed us back. 100 out of 100 for you. The tiruppugazh was kUrvEL pazitta vizhyAlE. I have updated the list as well.

Parakal-No word on sharing the recording yet.

parakal · Post by **parakal** » 20 Oct 2010, 09:35

so kind of u! pls tell sri ravikiran that there are many rasikas in india ,who are eager to hear to his music!

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 20 Oct 2010, 11:26

If the artist is magnanimous he would have JUST ALLOWED. If the artist is picky, best is to respect his views. You can attend his live concerts in India when he plays than specifically requesting for this concert.

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 21 Oct 2010, 01:11

Ravikiran Sir emailed us saying he will wants a "nominal" $10

per download/copy! So I cant put up any links as of now.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 21 Oct 2010, 01:13

'Nominal' $10 !!
That's a classic oxymoron!

(and will that include the sound of people eating samosas etc...i wonder)

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 21 Oct 2010, 01:17

R-t, It is but hopefully no discussions come up!

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 21 Oct 2010, 09:59

Why is he underselling himself ;( -

parakal · Post by **parakal** » 21 Oct 2010, 13:04

tht nominal $10 is nothing a price for ravikiran sir's music! sure we can contribute!

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 21 Oct 2010, 14:10

I would rather give to charity!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Oct 2010, 03:27

Why is there a general negative sentiment to the artist's response? It seems to me that the artist is better off not answering that question at all thereby eliminating this possibility of being looked down upon for charging for the download. If you do not perceive the value of that music, the choice is very simple and uncomplicated: do not buy it.

May be Sr. Ravi Kiran can increase the 'perceived value' by personalizing the download upon request by 'audio signing' it with a message like 'hello <rasikaname>, please enjoy the music' ( or something else more interesting ). He has to do it without making a big deal of it, so it comes as a nice surprise to the fans. Given the volume is not going to be that huge, it may be doable.. Just an idea.

parakal, not to nitpick, it is not a contribution, it is a price you pay...

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 22 Oct 2010, 14:22

the choice is very simple and uncomplicated: do not buy it.

Thank you for the advice. I have made my choice.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 22 Oct 2010, 15:11

[/quote]Thank you for the advice. I have made my choice.[/quote]
Now , here is a Wise Man.
And Since RT likes Zen , :$
Although gold dust is precious, when it gets in your eyes it obstructs your vision.
Hsi-Tang Chih Tsang 735 â€“ 814, renowned Zen master

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 22 Oct 2010, 16:53

MT - it's all a question of attitude...

Contrast this with vidwan GS Mani's view here: http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14293

When I requested him that I wish to share the recording with outside world, GSMji wholeheartedly agreed and added further â€¦.
â€œOnce I air my voice to public , it becomes a public property and Shastriya sangeetham has to be shared with the universe. You donâ€™t need to ask for my permission Go ahead !!â€

I will make sure I pay good money to purchase Shri GS Mani's recordings.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 22 Oct 2010, 19:36

ragam-talam wrote:When I requested him that I wish to share the recording with outside world, GSMji wholeheartedly agreed and added further â€¦.
â€œOnce I air my voice to public , it becomes a public property and Shastriya sangeetham has to be shared with the universe. You donâ€™t need to ask for my permission Go ahead !!â€

I will make sure I pay good money to purchase Shri GS Mani's recordings.[/quote]

Spot on

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 22 Oct 2010, 19:56

ragam-talam wrote:it's all a question of attitude...

Why the negative judgment on an artist charging money for their music? r-t, I was with you in prior discussions on the recording of concerts by rasikas, but this is an entirely different story. It is an untenable position to be against the artists selling the music. To be consistent then, you should be against selling of music.. period.. by anyone.. And by extension why limit it to music? it should apply to all 'noble' professions.

Do not drag in the nobility of G.S. Mani's statement to elevate yourself to a 'Holier than thou' position.

I will make sure I pay good money to purchase Shri GS Mani's recordings

r-t, fduddy:
It is fine to say all that, but prior to this thread, did you?

Just to be sure, my point is not about what this artist is selling, I may not pay for it since I do not perceive the value, but about the general cynical reactions to artists charging for their music.

Believe me, I know where this negative attitude to this issue comes from. It is culturally ingrained in us, I am not excluded. If I see an artist selling their prior concert CDs, it does instinctively feel odd. But that is our problem to get over. Somehow, if a music publishing company, sets up a stall outside the hall and sells the past concerts of the same artist, it does not look that odd. It is all our mental conditioning and it is time we break those things. It requires some conscious effort.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 22 Oct 2010, 20:17

How I wish the musical greats like the Somus, Vairams, Voletis used atleast 1% of the current generations sharp mind and intelligence in the commercialisation process which would have made them live a decent life !
They were the true music heroes who lived their life for the sake of the DIVINE ART.

VK, I dont think R-T stated anything wrong. He just compared the views of Sri G S Mani's with artists of the kind of RK!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 22 Oct 2010, 20:54

or they were also helpless prisoners under a cloaked gentle tyranny of a system made up of free-loading clientele, which eventually left them with no choice other than to develop a stockholm syndrome for that clientele ]

- but that is the economics of reality.

Surprising (not really

) and sad some would *demand* that artist dare not expect compensation but instead first demonstrate magnanimity by not expecting anything, which then would be heralded and if lucky "rewarded" with "contributions".

But if an artist's attitude turns clientele off, right or wrong, that is fine too. A choice indeed has been exercised.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 23 Oct 2010, 07:55

It is either you have not understood the intent of my statement or you want to stand ignorant. Of course that is your choice !

I doubt very much. I personally know a few musicians who are/were completely devoid of making money by singing. They were so passionate about the art and did not bother about people recording their music and / or sharing causing a notional income losses to them.
I am not against musicians making money as times / life style have changed and they also have to lead a life. But I find it so silly of musicians who are kept in such high pedastals to stoop to this level of being petty! Yes, of course I agree purchasing for a $10 is the option. But can he stop them further being shared further!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 23 Oct 2010, 09:08

fduddy, I do not think it is a question of not understanding what you intended to say. What you and r-t intended to say is quite clear.

>But I find it so silly of musicians who are kept in such high pedestals to stoop to this level of being petty!

Why is that petty, silly and stooping?

Such negative judgments are indeed our problem and not the artists.. It is a reflection of a messed up value systems we hold in our heads.

I do not know what profession you are in, so let me use a hypothetical example.

Hey, software writer that a lot of people hold in high esteem, I like that software of yours very much. Can I download a copy?

Sure, it is $10.00

Possible Reactions.

- Oh great. Here is $10.00, give me a link to download.
- Sorry, I do not think it is worth $10.00. Thanks anyway.
- You silly brute.. Why are you demeaning yourself and stooping to such a level by charging me for the software. I lost all respects for you. Get lost. I will never use your software again.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 23 Oct 2010, 09:42

vk, brilliant summary! Arun too.

fduddy wrote:But can he stop them further being shared further!

fduddy,
This part is not clear. If I believe in an honor system and request you not to distribute pirated copies of something you bought from me, how does that make me someone who "stoops down" ? Wouldn't the one who violates that honorable agreement by piracy be the one who's stooping ?

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 23 Oct 2010, 10:01

Can I download a copy?
Possible Reactions.
1.Sure, it is $10.00
2.?
3.?
VK You forgot to fill in 2 and 3

Humor aside , this is a situation where a neutral observer cannot take a position , on how exact should the response be .
Having watched these magicians from close quarters and always wondered about the gift that God has bestowed on them , I would expect an artistic response . That musician who prevented me from recording one of our concerts , ripped open the casette deck picked out the tape and threw it aside. Before embarking on a Shyama Sastri journey . ( And there lies an Aroon Tale )
Years of absorbing art made me wonder - why did he not take out that tape as a dancer would , roll it in his palms and give it to me saying , next time please . In fact that is what he said to me late in the night after I paid him a sum higher than what any other small sabha would have paid him . And I said no thanks. I wanted to record only this concert . the one of our series.
In Kannada , there is a saying which was a favourite of my Grand Ma
Kai Inda illa annodanna Bayee Inda helabekagilla .
Translated roughly , what you want to deny with your hands , you need not do it with your voice .
Translated practically , One could deny as well as not deny at the same time .
So My Mom who would take the cue , would reach out for the laddu dabba and say
"You have just eaten all of them and want one more?. See there is only one small piece left .Here it is . And break a laddu inside the dabba and hand us small piece "

Even I dont subscribe to Fduddys ( Rts) views and that is why I wrote about the Gold Dust.
Money is a poor measure of many worthwhile things in life and in this case , it is better not to use that as a barometer.
10 $ ????
I have a few Rvaikrans Recordings for which which I am willing to trade my right thumb - And I am Serious .

The lesson That I have learnt is to never broach a financial issue with artists about links, fully respecting their opinion on that .Maybe Ksrimech is wiser , after the experience . After all one must understand it was a euphoric request based on his posting here. May be I would have handled it differently . But I cant sing or play . That is the pity of the whole issue .

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 23 Oct 2010, 14:11

I personally know a few musicians who are/were completely devoid of making money by singing. They were so passionate about the art and did not bother about people recording their music and / or sharing causing a notional income losses to them

Please let's not be sanctimonious. VK's post is spot-on. Software people, engineers, painters, western or hindustani musicians, writers, .... anyone who produces something charges a price for it and we think that's perfectly alright. But carnatic musicians are supposed to practice this "divine art" for its own sake with not a thought about their livelihood, depending on our voluntary rewards based on our appreciation of such passion.

Thimma: yes artistic responses would be better but even consummate artists may not know how to be artistic 24x7. Mothering is different -- it's a 24x7 activity

Talking about money is awkward for most people -- the simplest way is the straight forward "Sure, it is $10.00". Having lived in both India and US I think that's nominal for $-wage earners and not nominal for most Rupee-wage earners. But the question asked was regarding a US concert hence I presume the price quoted was in US$.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 23 Oct 2010, 21:13

Anyway, the continuing of this big ten dollar question will only take rasikAs farther and farther away from the music which that chitra vInA brings us

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 25 Oct 2010, 22:49

arasiji,
Your effort in always trying to paper over things in the interest of keeping things "sumooham" is appreciated but it was important to call the bluff of fduddy and ragam-talam. Arun and vk (windy city compatriots!) as well A_E have done so with great precision and clarity.

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 25 Oct 2010, 23:36

Folks,
Iâ€™m not surprised to see these posts in the 2 days (I was inactive) given the interactions, we have all had at rasikas. I do know lot of our friends here donâ€™t care either. But before we go any deeper on this discussion, and do some more mudslinging at the artistes, here are some facts that I would like to highlight:
1) When I got a mail from the organizer the mail talked about CD commercialization which is the process of burning CDs and selling it for a cost, which is definitely not the same as sharing music online. This was also only a suggestion from the organizers after discussing with Ravikiran Sir. Ravikiran Sir had no idea of the online sharing and he was talking only about CDs. So, it is totally my fault to have merged 'cd' with 'online downloads' and muddling those numbers. I feel terrible for having caused this commotion and I take full responsibility for it. I apologize to the artistes and organizers for any inconvenience I have caused because of this.
2) Ravikiran sir in principle is totally ok to share online versions of the music which is proven beyond doubt in sites like our sister website, sangeethapriya and youtube.
3) The artistes are reviewing the recording quality and once all the 3 artistes are ok with both the quality and sign off on having it online, I will ensure to post it online.

Thanks for your patience!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 26 Oct 2010, 03:21

ksrimech - That's fine, please take your time. But do make sure uday-shankar pays for the download!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Oct 2010, 03:31

r-t, no.. By your own criteria, put forth by you when you invoked Sri. G.S. Mani "I will make sure I pay good money to purchase Shri GS Mani's recordings" you now should volunteer to pay good money for Sri. Ravikiran's recordings.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 26 Oct 2010, 03:39

ksrimech wrote:But before we go any deeper on this discussion, and do some more mudslinging at the artistes

Don't worry too much about it. There will always be posters cowering like wusses behind anonymous handles in any e-forum dedicated to the art of e-mudslinging...perhaps they do it for the sheer love for the "art" without any expectation of acknowledgement or reward

. The rest of us know which ones to have a meaningful exchange with and which ones to avoid like the plague.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 26 Oct 2010, 03:43

vk - fyi, GS Mani and Ravikiran are two different people...
In fact, you should put your money where your mouth is, and pay $10 to Ravikiran for each download. And get your buddies arun, evolving and uday to join in your grand gesture.

Leave me out of this silliness.
|(

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 26 Oct 2010, 04:15

Leave me out of this silliness.

Ok, fair enough, I would not harp on this.
( for the record my mouth was on the first two options in post #28 )

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 26 Oct 2010, 05:56

ragam-talam wrote:Leave me out of this silliness.
|(

Ohhhh...that's such a cute and endearing trick. Now that we're finished with the oodles of malicious and gratuitous mudslinging in a thread about an artist whose music we don't even care for, we'd like to retreat in all wussiness behind our anonymous handle and be left alone. Oh, sooo adorable.

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 26 Oct 2010, 07:20

vk - fyi, GS Mani and Ravikiran are two different people...
In fact, you should put your money where your mouth is, and pay $10 to Ravikiran for each download. And get your buddies arun, evolving and uday to join in your grand gesture.

Leave me out of this silliness

What Arun, VK and myself were saying is precisely that we don't believe in arrogating to ourselves "grand gestures" OR that musicians should be practicing the divine art without any expectation of remuneration. To charge (or not) is his prerogative and my prerogative is to choose whether to buy. Silliness is being judgmental about the artist's "attitude". And you don't get this?

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 27 Oct 2010, 03:21

The guys here who keep putting 'jaalra' for artistes are clueless. So if an artiste says you should pay $100 or $1000 for the next download would you just keep repeating your mantra 'artiste has every right to ask for anything'? If the artiste has that right, then a rasika has a similar right to point out their attitude. Perhaps you are not able to think clearly in the din of the jaalra you keep putting and the mantra you keep repeating.

The very fact that they are going to provide it as a free download underscores my original point.

(and u-s keeps mentioning 'anonymous handle' - does he think that vk, mt, a_e are their real names? as i said before, you are clueless indeed!)

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Oct 2010, 04:18

r-t, I can not speak for others that you include in 'the guys here', let me speak just for myself.. Your mention of $100, $1000 are strawman issues which I do not feel like responding to. No jalra of even the minutest proportion... trust me.

Here is the bottom line regarding where I am coming from.

- My point is 100% NOT about the artist but about the rasikas' value judgment on matters relating to money and CM artists.
- It is not just you or I, a whole lot of people exhibit automatically a value system that is inculcated in us culturally. ( misplaced idealism in anything relating to money and nobleness or high culture ).
- Give a good listen to what Arun wrote.. There is some insight there as to how these kinds of things develop.
- Your original point reflected a value system of 'looking down upon artists who charge for a download'.
- My point was to raise the issue as to why that should be looked upon negatively. My software example is in this context.

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 27 Oct 2010, 09:55

r-t: Your response #22, and fduddys #25 and #27 were full of statements about how artists should share Shastriya sangeetham with the universe, so many past greats did not earn a penny for their divine art, we should appreciate their selfless service and support them voluntarily, etc. To which I responded saying why is charging for CM any different from any other art, science, software...?

The entire debate arose out of $10 quoted as the charge --- which I admitted is not nominal for most Rupee-wage earners. And now you are saying "What if it was $100 or $1000?" So was fduddy offering all this sanctimonious advice to artists based on this "what if"? [I don't expect you to speak for her, just posing the question since my response was mainly to those posts 22, 25, 27]

Simple economics would result in few sales for the artist who charges ridiculous amounts; it doesn't even need us to get moralistic about it, but yes I get turned off by greed just as much as you.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 27 Oct 2010, 10:35

Always_Evolving wrote:r-t: Your response #22, and fduddys #25 and #27 were full of statements about how artists should share Shastriya sangeetham with the universe, so many past greats did not earn a penny for their divine art, we should appreciate their selfless service and support them voluntarily, etc. To which I responded saying why is charging for CM any different from any other art, science, software...?

The entire debate arose out of $10 quoted as the charge --- which I admitted is not nominal for most Rupee-wage earners. And now you are saying "What if it was $100 or $1000?" So was fduddy offering all this sanctimonious advice to artists based on this "what if"? [I don't expect you to speak for her, just posing the question since my response was mainly to those posts 22, 25, 27]

Simple economics would result in few sales for the artist who charges ridiculous amounts; it doesn't even need us to get moralistic about it, but yes I get turned off by greed just as much as you.

Sadly misunderstood, It was just a comparison of the current vs the past masters. I infact have stated that the current should earn money for a living unlike the past masters who suffered economically because of their indifference towards the ART vs COMMERCIALISATION.

Our CM/HM and other specialists who are learned lot in vedas Upanishads etc etc cannot be compared to the western form of commercialization. The art is so fragile that the moment it gets commercialized the beauty of it is LOST! This is my opinion which may or may not make sense to you or others. The dilution of the art over the years is precisely ecause of this!

If you guys cant decipher the intent and the reason of my stating '...... getting petty' I do not think there is any reason why this debate should continue and your further posting of justification for r-t's comments.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 27 Oct 2010, 11:31

For the benefit of all those who have been finding fault with the critcs - of the 10 $ demand -

A GREAT man of letters or any great artist is symbolic without knowing it. The things he describes are types because they are truths. Shakespeare may or may not have ever put it to himself that Richard the Second was a philosophical symbol; but all good criticism must necessarily see him so.
It may be a reasonable question whether an artist should be allegorical. There can be no doubt among sane men that a critic should be allegorical.
Introduction to â€˜Great Expectations.â€™

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 27 Oct 2010, 13:32

fduddy: Who is to say where the line is between "earning a living" and "commercialization". I cannot. I would like to avoid the temptation to morally judge whether a musician's charges are reasonable to earn a living OR it constitutes "commercialization". He gets to decide what standard of living is reasonable for himself. If he names a price I get to decide if the music is worth it to me.

I also think that those of us who are more "classically inclined" are also the ones who hold our musical heroes to a higher standard of spiritual evolution / austerity / selflessness. This image of a musician being the repository of the upanishads (why?) makes us think they ought to live austerely, wear panchakacham and travel by cycle rickshaw, tambura precariously clutched, from the ramshackle old house in Mylapore.

Gone are the days of royal patronage for the arts. If we want to democratize it we ticket-buying public should be willing to shell out respectable sums of money for the "classical" music --- at least the equivalent of ticket/popcorn / soda-pop that we gladly spend at a movie theater. If we skimp because of this culturally ingrained way of thinking "good music can only come from high values of austerity / spirituality, otherwise the grand tradition is lost", more musicians are likely to resort to cheapening the art in order to sell better. Many of you will agree that this dilution / cheapening / gimmickry happens around us all the time.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 27 Oct 2010, 15:51

ragam-talam wrote:does he think that vk, mt, a_e are their real names?

More strawman stuff. My emphasis is not on anonymous handles but about the wussiness of hurling slander from behind anonymity. Those others you mentioned others are normal, rational, gracious folks who can admit mistakes, etc.. so it does not matter that they are anonymous, manasile aayo ? Anyways, "ariyaada pillaikku choriyumbol ariyum"

. The only thing revealed here is your own unfortunate ugliness whereas if you didn't have an anonymous handle you would be more mindful of everything you say.

fduddy
It is a myth that the "old masters" didn't care about money. I was at a speech by V Shriram on Palghat Mani Iyer. Sriram revealed that one of the things PMI insisted was to be paid right on stage before the "sweat of his palms dry out". So maybe it's time to knock him off you pedestal...off with PMI. Next up, there stories about SSI and money are legion. So Semmangudi is out. Chembai Vaidyanatha Bhagavathar, Chowdiah, Palani Subramania Pillai, TN Rajarathinam Pillai, GNB who are all on record demanding good fees are also out. Lastly the 20th century God of CM, Ariyakudi Ramanuja Iyer is also out. He "demanded" that as the seniormost, he be paid more than all the crowd pullers like GNB, etc... With All India Radio which had fixed rates, ARI demanded on principle that he be paid one rupee more than everyone else

. I daresay the "fragile art" was well preserved by these horrible, money-minded artists.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 27 Oct 2010, 19:54

Uday
Good try. Unfortunately none of the named artist in your post appear in my list of my musical heroes in post #25

Not worth engaging in a nonsensical discussion. My last post in the forum.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 27 Oct 2010, 20:33

It is advantageous to an artist that his work should be attacked as well as praised.Fame is a shuttlecock.If it be struck at only one end of the room, it will soon fall to the ground.To keep it up , it must be struck at both ends.
Peter Bogdanovich