Silence and Pause in Indian Classical Music

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 04 Dec 2010, 14:00

I have been reading, observing and listening to the various discussions on the role of Silence in Music, Indian Classical Music, in specific. The discussions are mostly inspired by western points of view and applying them to Indian Classical Music.
Silence and Pauses are two aspects in Indian Classical Music. They are distinct and different.
The Performing musicians are creative artists. During the performance(s), they get creative moments and ideas for communication and presentation. To offer, communicate and present a creative idea based sangati or sanchara, they need to stop the flow and start afresh. This process of momentary stop or gap(correctly) in the flow, is pause. It is not Silence. Fortunately, rarely, the creative artist comes up with excellent ideas and its presentation. Unfortunately, in reality, no new, afresh and excellent ideas and its presentation happens. Expectation and excitement is aroused and ends with ordinary sangati or sanchara, serving only the committed rasikas of the artist, who get the feeling of fresh and new experience, with the deliberate and conscious indulgence by the performer.

The Silence happens when the performing artist is drawn creatively sub-conscious and totally inward and in perfection, reaches pinnacles of pure and sublime Nada and its effects, all pervading and all consuming. The pervasiveness and consumption, is realized only after the real creative moments, performance and delivery. The moments, when both the performer and the rasika are in the state of suspended animation caused by the beuty(stunningly) is verily, the Silence! The awareness and its impact and benefits, happen after the Silence is over.

The pauses serve the limited purpose of arresting the attention or even testing the preparedness or patience of the rasika. But, Silence, a very rare phenomenon, is truly blissful moment(s).

munirao2001

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 04 Dec 2010, 14:39

And I have never it seen better demonstrated , than in a KS Gopalkrishnan Concert . If the silences are Golden , the pauses are platinum . Simply amazing artist.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 04 Dec 2010, 16:02

Neither Pause . Neither silence . Then what should we call this . Oh ! only if someone can bring it to CM !!!!

http://www.mediafire.com/?tytx2dc892cg8z4

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 04 Dec 2010, 17:11

If I am permitted to say so -While it is absorbing it is more like a mourning song. One cannot continuously hear one that is stretched for long. :^)
Sorry for a digression.

MOUNA NADHAM!

O Music! hast thou only heard
The laughing river,
The gushing waters,
The rustling leaves,
The singing bird,
The murmuring wind
All Nothing but Nature's melodies! But, not
The silent Music?
True it is, Stillness has much
more Painful melody!

venkatakailasam

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 04 Dec 2010, 18:21

Who is the master of silences on mridangam?

According to me, it is UKS

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 04 Dec 2010, 19:10

venkatakailasam
Blame AIR and Doordarshan for that ... :devil:

ignoramus · Post by **ignoramus** » 05 Dec 2010, 07:39

Nick

PMI is pretty effective on the pauses and the entries are spectacular on certain occassions

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Dec 2010, 07:59

The all-time master of silence was Mali..
..at times there used to be a gap of more than an hour between notes!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Dec 2010, 08:16

mankuthimma wrote:Neither Pause . Neither silence . Then what should we call this . Oh ! only if someone can bring it to CM !!!!

http://www.mediafire.com/?tytx2dc892cg8z4

Thanks Thimma! Pardon me (for violating your fatwa)!
Divine experience! That is when 'Time stands still' !!

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 05 Dec 2010, 08:58

SrI tyAgarAja mentions about 'yati', 'viSrama' in the SrI Ranjani rAga kRti 'sogasugA mRdanga tALamu'. http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... danga.html

Does this topic refers to this?

Radhika-Rajnarayan · Post by **Radhika-Rajnarayan** » 05 Dec 2010, 09:19

The all-time master of silence was Mali..

I agree. The pure long perfectly held notes, and the silences in between - these are some of the factors that contributed to the ineffable 'something' in Mali's music that touched the listener.
Yet, there was something else - what was that?
Who knows? And what does it matter? As long as we can listen and and enjoy the divine music he presented - that's enough!
The late N S Srinivasan gave a very illuminating lec-dem at the Veenapani Centre for Arts, bangalore, on this very aspect - the importance of silence in Carnatic music. It is the silence that enables us to appreciate the preceding phrase as well as the following phrase.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 05 Dec 2010, 09:37

And MDR .
From a different angle .
Whenever I encounter a pause or silence in anybody else's performance of any given raga , I find MDR's voice floating in to fill the gap .In the innermost recesses of my understanding . |(

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 05 Dec 2010, 09:42

Thanks Thimma! Pardon me (for violating your fatwa)!

It is an Indian tradition for youngsters not to act with fatwas on elders

So there was no Fatwa in the first place . One might have noticed that I have stopped poking my nose in all India Bashing threads .
Life is beautiful and if someone does not like my presence , you can notice that I have learnt the art of sliding out gracefully.
What is the point of growing old if one can not get graceful along the way ?
Cheers.

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 05 Dec 2010, 10:40

cmlover wrote: Thanks Thimma! Pardon me (for violating your fatwa)!

How do you manage this. Hats off to you!

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 05 Dec 2010, 10:43

Maybe he read this quite early
Wrinkles should only indicate , Where , once the smiles have been ..

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 05 Dec 2010, 11:05

" This process of momentary stop or gap(correctly) in the flow, is pause. It is not Silence."
Idolatry should not guide for true experience and judgment. Many a times, idiosyncrasies and indiscipline behavior of the performing artist are hailed, unfortunately. For e.g. post of cmlover " at times there use to be a gap of more than an hour between notes". For visradhi, performing artist uses intelligently the pause. Misuse( artificial) of the pause(s), deliberate and conscious does not add value, if idea or presentation quality is either repetitive, lacking freshness or higher quality. It is very common.
The litmus test for Silence is, when the performing artist(s) offers music/experience, when the thought process is either stopped or is in suspended animation and the immense beauty unfolds, after consciousness and thought process is restored, leading to blissful pleasure and craving for recall of such experience(s) -Ananda. This is indeed very rarest phenomenal occurrence and experience. It is very uncommon.
Vgovindan
The 'yati Visrama' should be read/listened with 'Sadbhakthi'. The Sadbhakthi arising out of or the result of Union(with Ista Devatha - tenet of Advaita and aftermath relaxation, is the composition of Thyagaraja. This resulting in eternal heady experience akin to 'draksha rasa'. It has nothing to do with the topic of 'Silence' and 'Pauses'.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 05 Dec 2010, 11:40

There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
Ansel Adams

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 05 Dec 2010, 12:40

Two great moments of Pause in my Hall of fame

One when the vilionist is prompted by the vocalist during the climax , takes a pause , regroups his thoughts and .
And .........
http://www.mediafire.com/?5m76dxhcz17gun3

Two when the violinist senses a great opportunity , like the creature of wild lying in ambush for its kill , lying patiently for long periods absolutely still .
And ........
http://www.mediafire.com/?ta724of8ukbajb3

Glory be to them . Absolute Masters of their craft .

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 05 Dec 2010, 13:51

Karaikudi Mani, has been described as a "mridangist who beautifully blended sound, scholarship, sense and silence"
and gave more importance to pauses which added laya luster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g65T_AoFdic

Karaikudi Mani mridangam solo Part I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VZudmyO ... re=related Part II

venkatakailasam

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 05 Dec 2010, 15:17

Beautiful clips by two greats..am reminded of another such prodding by SSI after a round of Swarams during a Pallavi in Thodi and LGJ responding similarly. The second - well, MSG, for one, would sure see more than an opportunity especially with a Ragam such as Sunadavinodini

Beautiful responses by both the inimitable masters..thanks Cool ji..

Sathej

mankuthimma wrote:Two great moments of Pause in my Hall of fame

One when the vilionist is prompted by the vocalist during the climax , takes a pause , regroups his thoughts and .
And .........
http://www.mediafire.com/?5m76dxhcz17gun3

Two when the violinist senses a great opportunity , like the creature of wild lying in ambush for its kill , lying patiently for long periods absolutely still .
And ........
http://www.mediafire.com/?ta724of8ukbajb3

Glory be to them . Absolute Masters of their craft .

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 05 Dec 2010, 16:18

Munirao and all,
Very good discussion and demos. In those moments of 'silence' (Wordsworth calls it suspension of disbelief), notes may be sounded but there is silence (just as a brook in its solemn but gurgling flow creates a sense of silence). Is it meditation? Is it more? Do you lose yourself but at the same time are at the height of your acute senses?
Mali's silences (literal ones!) are really links and evoke in the listener a sense of anticipation, priming him/her for a heightened state of listening. CML, I don't mean those very long pauses!
Then there are the usual pauses between each number.No big deal, but when we hear those who deliver non-stop like a ton of bricks, we realize how even those mandatory pauses matter , indeed!

As for wafA (who said fatwA?)..

I see a wrinkle of a smile on the infant's face--
It expands and crinkles up the whole surface
Seeing which the lines on the aged face
Disappear, donning the age of the babe
What privilege, age!
Young and old at once!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Dec 2010, 22:34

..as one on the eve of an eternal silence I am moved by the tenor of these discussions which has brought out some exalted music clips (and ideas too!). I had once recommended that music be played at the operating room before the patient goes under and to continue after he/she recovers.. Some of the patients (done with their consent) had thanked me for the suggestion and the exhilarating experience they had while they were under! But my proposal for a clinical trial was 'rejected' as too 'eastern esoterics'! Miinimally I had suggested that it will minimize the stress and tension in the subject but my arguments were still rejected since my experience has only been with CM and the West is yet to discover the beauty of inner meditative silence (which CM induces) while they know all about the technique and mechanics.
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=16481

Thanks Thimma
..for mellowing and graduating to become an honorary member of our Elders Club where our motto is:
"To err is human, To Forgive Divine".

Arasi

Some fine introspective thoughts!
..adieu for the present

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 05 Dec 2010, 23:45

The patient opened his eyes. He was shocked to find himself alone in the operating theatre, although, on a frosted glass panel, he could see the shadow shapes of eating food and drinking tea. Slowly, he realised what listening to. The Tani was being played...

I jest. But I know how much music meant to me when I was recovering from major surgery, and I am sure that it would have been wonderful if it could have been played before, during and after.

Nurse! Can you please ask that man in the opposite bed to stop clapping talam!

Somebody once said that music is not the notes, it is in the spaces between them.

If it wasn't for jokes, we couldn't have the serious bits in between...

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 06 Dec 2010, 12:34

Arasi â€œIn those moments of 'silence' (Wordsworth calls it suspension of disbelief), notes may be sounded but there is silence (just as a brook in its solemn but gurgling flow creates a sense of silence). Is it meditation? Is it more? Do you lose yourself but at the same time are at the height of your acute senses?"
In those moments of 'Silence', it is not suspension of disbelief, it is total awareness and ' Self ' in suspension. The thought process in stillness, struck by the impact of the sublime or immense beuty and power. It is not meditation as commonly advocated, believed and practiced - focussing on a thought or set of thoughts, given shape and form, but more. Factually, meditation is achieving state of thoughtlessness- samadhi-prolonged such moments or time. Yes, one is 'willingly' lost, but at the same time one is at the pinnacle of acute sense(s) - in the state of (sub-consciousness - with only inward perception) suspended animation! State of awareness and enjoyment of the bliss/pleasure, happening moments later, when regaining the consciousness ( with only outward perception)

Arasi â€œMali's silences (literal ones!) are really links and evoke in the listener a sense of anticipation, priming him/her for a heightened state of listening. CML, I don't mean those very long pauses!â€. Phenomena of Silence occurence being very rare, all the other stops or control of the flow, are only 'pauses', including Mali's. Mali mama himself explained to me, when I sought clarification ( frustated with his manners and methods) that he is in the search of self actualization and self enjoyment of the beuty of classical music and even when he takes to the platform for performing for the sake of organiser or more importantly, the rasika, he is partaking his own finding, enjoyment and its pleasure with rasikas. He takes time to capture the creative thought/idea, freeze it, try and choose the best method of giving expression to it. He strongly opined that his ways and means of performance is unsuitable or not correct for current and modern'cutcheri' format and begged 'apology'.

Nick H
â€œSomebody once said that music is not the notes, it is in the spaces between them.â€
I beg to differ. Music is definitely only in the notes. But for understanding, its appreciation and enjoyment, space between them gives opportunities - opportune consummation moments.

munirao2001

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 06 Dec 2010, 13:43

it is not suspension of disbelief, it is total awareness and ' Self ' in suspension. The thought process in stillness, struck by the impact of the sublime or immense beuty and power.

Very well put. The willing suspension of disbelief is something spoken of in connection with fiction. When we read a novel, or watch a play or film, we are aware that it is not real, however, we willingly allow ourselves to accept the story, otherwise we could not enjoy it.

The suspension of disbelief in literature: the suspension of self in music

venkatakailasam · Post by **venkatakailasam** » 07 Dec 2010, 06:57

Pause may not always provide luster in the same way as many of us understand. Here is a clip at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t1IpExUE84
where MC
Plays for Madurai Shri TNS. At 9.33 MC pauses- a viewer commented â€œThe ex AIR-Hyd staff artiste violinist is no match to the veteran legend TNS ! He helplessly gives up playing/accompanying at 9:33 ! Wish TNS had worthy accompanistâ€. Another viewer while acknowledging the brilliance of MC stated it is understandable that Sri MCâ€™s momentary enjoyment during a concert can be misconstrued as lack of abilities. It is clear that from the smile from MCâ€™s face that actually he is enjoying the Shri TNSâ€™s concert as we do!
( MC is one who has a smiling face as our Lok shabha Speaker Madam MiraKumar! )

Once after Shri Nedunuri Krishnamoorthy had rendered a soulful and imaginative Kapi alapana , Shri Lalgudi made a complete Silence by refusing to respond by saying that it is impossible for him to give any comparable response !

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 07 Dec 2010, 07:30

Couple of Points to be noted .
Quite a lot of what TNS does on the stage is beyond most of our brains. So it takes some guts even to agree to accompany him . Let alone be a long standing partner like MC.
MC is known for his ability to appreciate. In the 80s I would very often see him in the audience , at Lalgudis concerts .
MC is quite frank when necessary . Several times in Somus concerts , one can hear him say : Those things are possible with your voice , cant be reproduced on the violin.
Close your eyes for a minute and act as though you are visually challenged . The silence and pause are difficult to grasp ..
**
In a SSI recording , there is a pause , after he finishes the song and the audience , a bit unsure whether it has ended , starts clapping half heartedly . And SSI can be heard remarking . Podungo Podungo . Adikhenna ration ...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Dec 2010, 10:42

(MC is one the artists I came to you through you. Even if you never introduced me to another, I shall be for happy for this!)

MC has that detached pleasure in music. I remember it being said of MSG that, when he plays, there are two MSGs on stage: one playing the music, and one listening, and enjoying. MC is like that too: even after a lifetime of living with his own music, it still seems to surprise and delight him

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 07 Dec 2010, 11:04

All the Great Maestros are, at first the great rasikas and pay total attention to listening and enjoying. Accompanists in general, Violinists, in particular, develop the skills of heightened listening and enjoyment, which enables them to respond, in quick time and also to contribute, through their own well honed skills and practice of manodharma sangita. If they refrain playing as a response, it is more due to their total enjoyment, admiration, compliment and wish that the pleasure should linger on, without their collaboration.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Dec 2010, 11:14

Munirao,
Yes, then after the pause, an inspired response from the instrumentalists--all such ideal ingredients for a great concert.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 07 Dec 2010, 11:16

Venkatakailasam
You have posted â€œPause may not always provide luster in the same way as many of us understandâ€
I had posted Quote "The Performing musicians are creative artists. During the performance(s), they get creative moments and ideas for communication and presentation. To offer, communicate and present a creative idea based sangati or sanchara, they need to stop the flow and start afresh. This process of momentary stop or gap(correctly) in the flow, is pause. It is not Silence. Fortunately, rarely, the creative artist comes up with excellent ideas and its presentation. Unfortunately, in reality, no new, afresh and excellent ideas and its presentation happens. Expectation and excitement is aroused and ends with ordinary sangati or sanchara, serving only the committed rasikas of the artist, who get the feeling of fresh and new experience, with the deliberate and conscious indulgence by the performer."

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 07 Dec 2010, 11:20

arasi,
The occurence discussed, is a rare phenomena. Inspired response and great value sharing or even incremental value, happens very often.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 07 Dec 2010, 11:30

Nick H
"The suspension of disbelief in literature: the suspension of self in music". I am sorry to say NO. In literature, the suspension is deliberate and well considered thought and action. Suspension of Self in Music or in any other fine art, just happens when struck by the beuty and power, unwillingly. Enoyment perceived, realized and craving for recall experience, is with will.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 07 Dec 2010, 12:23

Silence in ICM
Hmmm .... Some Golden Chapters.

The silence for over 5 years , when Kumar Gandharv was prevented from singing .
Five years of Mulling over , for a practising musician .... The relocation to Malwa ... The sounds of the Folk Music drifting in , late in the nights , and the Transformation of a Khayal singer to an interpreter of Meera , Kabir , Surdas .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY2k0JcfByg

The silence of BGAK on the Doctors table .
Waking up after a stroke , the Doctor tries to soothe a struggling Bade . Bends to ask him , if he wants anything.
Searching for my Sur ... the reply comes back.

The silence of an Annapurna Devi , born several decades before women starting getting emancipated in this country .

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 07 Dec 2010, 12:31

munirao2001 wrote:Nick H
"The suspension of disbelief in literature: the suspension of self in music". I am sorry to say NO. In literature, the suspension is deliberate and well considered thought and action. Suspension of Self in Music or in any other fine art, just happens when struck by the beuty and power, unwillingly. Enoyment perceived, realized and craving for recall experience, is with will.

Well, I was drawing attention to the differences and the different effect, but "deliberate and well considered" I can't agree with. Nobody who sits down with a good yarn takes time to consider that they are going to allow suspension of their disbelief. What's more, the writer's skill has something to do with encouraging our willingness too.

Of course, we decide to open the book, but then we decide to go to a concert too.

litmus · Post by **litmus** » 13 Dec 2010, 14:19

While on Mali's music, came across this link on Carnatica:

http://www.carnatica.net/tribute/malitribute.htm

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 14 Dec 2010, 17:11

http://www.mediafire.com/?lrcldr1o5u8huy5

A day on which Voleti was bubbling with energy and fine thoughts and did not want to pause.
What a breathtaking shift from the Varnam to Ninnu Joochi -
It must have been early indications for the audience, that the concert was going to be a sizzler . Which it ultimately ends up as.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 15 Dec 2010, 07:58

http://www.mediafire.com/?u631pfw3zn4xjx2

Pauses and interruptions ........
A glorious interruption.

fduddy · Post by **fduddy** » 15 Dec 2010, 11:03

mankuthimma wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?u631pfw3zn4xjx2

Pauses and interruptions ........
A glorious interruption.

Awesome stuff.

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 15 Dec 2010, 12:13

The litmus test for Silence is, when the performing artist(s) offers music/experience, when the thought process is either stopped or is in suspended animation and the immense beauty unfolds, after consciousness and thought process is restored, leading to blissful pleasure and craving for recall of such experience(s) -Ananda. This is indeed very rarest phenomenal occurrence and experience. It is very uncommon.

Dear Munirao , That is the key to the whole discussion . Very very beautifully worded .
Reminds me of the story , when Darwin's wife wrote to him a week after their marriage :

May not the habit in scientific pursuits of believing nothing till it is proved , influence your mind too much in other things which cannot be proved in the same way , and which if true , are likely to be above our comprehension ?

And decades later , this footnote was discovered ( written by Darwin ) at the bottom of that letter , .

When I am dead , know that many times I have kissed and cried over this .

If that could be the state of a person like Darwin , no wonder we float in such grey clouds between conscious thought and suspended animation .
Bringing us to that point is the ultimate gift from the artist to us .
I still remember the first time I heard MS sing Parthapara over the radio ...As she would break into ariyayanum kaaNavariya jOti ... There would be a magic beyond words . Time again I have experienced it with this artist and others , this Krithi and others , this raga and others ...And yet this descritiption of yours is unmistakeably on the spot. The pivotal issue for your thread.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 15 Dec 2010, 21:01

mankuthimma wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?u631pfw3zn4xjx2

Pauses and interruptions ........
A glorious interruption.

Nice Shanmukhapriya..thanks Cool ji..to hazard a guess, is it Shri TK Rangachari?

Sathej

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 15 Dec 2010, 22:23

Sathej wrote: Nice Shanmukhapriya..thanks Cool ji..to hazard a guess, is it Shri TK Rangachari?
Sathej

I think it's GS Mani not TKR! Coolji?

mankuthimma · Post by **mankuthimma** » 15 Dec 2010, 22:33

It is GS Mani indeed .
nice try sathej . TKR was just as talkative, in his concerts

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 15 Dec 2010, 22:55

mankuthimma wrote:It is GS Mani indeed .
nice try sathej . TKR was just as talkative, in his concerts

Oh ok..the talk made me tilt towards TKR, in the guess. The clip you uploaded for the Lalgudi Celebrations..TKR with LGJ - a beautiful Neelambari with a detailed and thoughtful rant

Sathej