Article of TM Krishna in Hindu 2.1.2011

[kssr]

See the article link below:

http://www.hindu.com/mag/2011/01/02/sto ... 310500.htm

There is something about Desi and Local music. I cannot follow it. I thought desi means local

[Nick H]

It's even less readable than the last one. There might be some interesting history in there, but I couldn't read it.

[vasanthakokilam]

Fascinating stuff. Right, a lot of material densely packed. Good stuff, though. Material is not completely new to us since some of it had been discussed here before. But it is good to see it all in one place and get the bigger community's attention so several aspects of this can be dissected and debated. I overheard TMK vigorously discussing with someone at the MA corridors about some theoretical aspects about swarasthanas and I guess he was then in the process of putting this article together.

I also thought Desi means non-classical (local) but TMK is using it in the sense of classical..

One thought that came to me is, the same way Pann singing may have been affected by Carnatic ragas, the same way carnatic ragas may have been affected by Pann singing. That possibility should be explored as well.

[vs_manjunath]

TMK has written a series of four artcles and this is the last one.
TMK's wall in Facebook has all the links.
rasikas who have missed these articles can access and enjoy them.

[Nick H]

TMK has written a series of four artcles and this is the last one.

Then I missed two.

On the basis of the ones I did not miss, I think that he has thrown away a valuable opportunity to make history interesting and to bring it to life. For some reason, he has decided to adopt the style of a 1950s professor.

Those who are used to reading such books, or attending such lectures, may not mind this at all: for the rest of us, it is just boring.

[mahavishnu]

I agree with Nick. I think TMK has made these articles unnecessarily pedantic. I am used to reading fairly dense material for a living, but I found it hard to get through his writing.

As a contrast, I find V.Sriram's writing style to be much more accessible, witty and appealing. I end up learning a lot more from reading those, especially about puliyodharai, tigers and insects.

[vasanthakokilam]

well, to be fair, Sriram's topics are not as dense as TMK's. But I do like the writing style of Sriram and definitely TMK can improve his presentation style. The possible issue with these articles by TMK is the assumption about some knowledge and familiarity with terminology on these topics. In some sense it is like some of the hindu reviews where they use musical terminology willy nilly ( like 'pa varjya prayogas' For us here, it is not a big deal to know what that is but I wonder how many of the readership understand any of that or they simply gloss over them.) The best in music related writing for me is our Gamakam ( in Tamil ). Some his folkish expressions are funny and quite apt and the articles flow very well.. again the topics are quite different from TMK's

[sureshvv]

Primary focus in these articles is to inform and not to entertain. In addition, a lot of information is being presented within a short space. So it may need multiple sittings to get through the entire material. Definitely not popcorn for the mind.

[Nick H]

Primary focus in these articles is to inform...

Then communications skills become even more important! How many here can remember and regret being turned off some subject at school by a boring, lifeless teacher? That is what TMK is doing.

For some reason, it is pleasing him to write in this style. It certainly doesn't please me, and I think I am not alone.

This stuff would never get past the editor if it was not for the name.

[venkatakailasam]

I tend to agree with shri. sureshvv. The article is not to entertain but share a finding . As vk has pointed out
the possible issue with these articles by TMK is the assumption about some knowledge and familiarity with terminology on these topics.
We are in the habit of deciding the matter based on authorship than with reference to material content there in . That is what Shri M........had done earlier in another thread. If comments are forthcoming on the subject, they can further our thinking.
Authorship and language may not be important than what is conveyed .

venkatakailasam

[Nick H]

My judgement of the author is based on the content, not the other way around.

This same author has published rubbish about law, but at least it was readable rubbish!



EDIT: a flippant remark not intended to refer to the content in any way.

[venkatakailasam]

Is it possible to find which part is rubbish ?

[sr_iyer]

I found the article “Decoding the gramaraga” quite interesting. I would have perhaps found it even more interesting had it been possible for a snippet of inscription to be provided and for the same to be interpreted it as per currently used/understood notation practices. On the other hand, it could be that more work is required before such a deconstruction of the inscription and such an interpretation can be handled for a given snippet. It could also be that such an interpretation, even if feasible, may not be of interest to the majority of readers. Perhaps the general purport of this thread is that this (potential lack of interest/relevance to the majority of readers) could be said of the subject of the entire article, but IMHO, it serves the purpose of generating an interest to learn more on the subject. My humble opinion is that general articles (including those on music) are all too many in a newspaper, and it is creditworthy that such subjects are also being given some space. A minor thought I had upon reading the article was that a brief explanation on what grAma rAga is, and what dEs’I connotes, would have made the article slightly more lucid and cogent. BTW, I hold no brief for the author, and his other general articles on music recording etc, did not interest me as much, not because the topics were general, but because I felt some more perspectives could have been included. lOkO bhinna ruciH, it is said. (Tastes differ)

[srikant1987]

it serves the purpose of generating an interest to learn more on the subject.

Well, to each his own -- lOkO bhinna ruci.

[Nick H]

Is it possible to find which part is rubbish ?

I spoke flippantly, as I often do, and as I often live to regret. Whether you meant your question as a rebuke or not, I accept it as one.

As to the content of his writings on recording and law: that we have well covered.

I really should not have used the word in the context of this series. I do not dispute his history. I am not qualified to dispute his history, or his facts, in any way. I did not mean to, and I'm happy to make it clear. Nor do I mean to call into question, in any way, his skill or knowledge as a musician.

[venkatakailasam]

No.. no.. Mr. H. Nick..I can never be harsh..being a follower of SAI I can hurt nobody.. Possibly while stressing a point , I may look to be harsh. If I had given such a feeling I regret and be excused.

venkatakailasam

[Nick H]

There is nothing harsh in holding up a mirror!

[srkris]

The article is quite general and offers no new insight beyond what is already known. Truly it is no big deal to infer (with or without the Kudumiyanmalai inscriptions) that the raga system (as we know it) was not originally native to the tamil country, and that it is a northern (desi) import.

The author assumes, without providing any reasons, that the pann system was a distinct 'tamil' system (rather than being merely a tamil name for the then existing classical music system).

Was the parivardhini (sic) a type of veena? Apparently not.

Overall the title of the article "Decoding the gramaraga" is quite irrelevant to the contents of the article since the article has nothing much to say about grama ragas.

[venkatakailasam]

A few links on the kudumiyanmalai inscriptions are:
http://templedarshan.blogspot.com/2010/ ... malai.html
http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=879
http://www.musicacademymadras.in/Music_ ... ecords.pdf
(Premalatha, V. (Venkataraman), 1937-
A monograph on Kudumiyanmalai inscription on music / by V. Premalatha. -- Madurai : V.
Premalatha, 1986.
69 p., [4] p. of plates : ill. ; 23 cm.
Acc. no. 2916)
The seventh century Kudumiyanmalai inscriptions on music were discovered in 1904 by H. Krishna Sastri, a mathematician

Prof. Sambamurthy describes these inscriptions as the “first record to mention the solfa names of the seven notes... where the srutis are designated by resorting to the vowel changes in the name of the note and reduced to a mnemonic system of absolute notation.” There is also an inscription, which says that King Maheswara, disciple of Rudracharya, is the author of the music inscriptions, which he intended to benefit students.

Further research can be made by competent persons.

TMK may not have brought out the niceties of the matter and he may not be the first to bring out -but has brought out a matter hither to not known to many.

venkatakailasam

[kssr]

I wonder why there is an extraordinary eagerness to try hard and find ways of linking today's carnatic music and some form of music of the caveman or even something before him. Panns from what I understand are very basic music forms, that is being followed by Oduvaars and others. There were, in olden days, (say silappathikaram days, around 2000 years back) similar basic music forms in Europe, Middle East, North India (Vedic hymns), among african tribes and so on. There will always be some commonality with CM in all these music forms with regard to the sounds and rhythms. It is quite unwarranted for our scholars to jump and try to evaluate the similarities and establish that CM is very ancient. Too much of effort in this direction will lead to
மொட்டை தலைக்கும் முழன்காலுக்கும் முடிச்சு போடுவது
(trying to tie up the bald head and the smooth knee-)- linking unrelated things

There is enough and more material to research from the obviously known beginnings of CM, can we say from Mathanga muni or even a later date say Venkatamahi. Indians have a distinct flair in making straight forward historical things into things mystical and mysterious - Like some of the temples claimed to be built by Indra or Chandra In my humble opinion we should not try to extend such a habit when we look at the origins of genuine CM as we have it today, based on ragams and thaalams.

[venkatakailasam]

Perhaps, after 2000 years hence,another Shri kssr may be writing the same thing about carnatic music also. who knows?

venkatakailasam

[Nick H]

I love the smooth-head-bald-knee saying! Don't statisticians have a more modern (but not so eloquent) version that goes something like "don't confuse coincidence with causation"?

I wonder why there is an extraordinary eagerness to try hard and find ways of linking today's carnatic music and some form of music of the caveman or even something before him.

Three things come to mind:

1. "Ancient" is desirable and gives weight to the current.

2. "Look, we were there first!" --- doing this music thing 2,000 years ago!

3. The desire to be/look academically accomplished.

--- just my theories about a way of thinking in general: not aimed at TMK!

I'm not saying history isn't interesting!

[kssr]

Here is today's TMK article. His 5th?

http://www.hindu.com/mag/2011/01/09/sto ... 220500.htm

[vasanthakokilam]

kssr: To be fair, these research efforts are not in the type that you have problems with. I have problems with those too, but these are spared of such things. These are musicological efforts which have been going on for quite a while, TMK is summarizing, giving it some form and reporting.

On the secular research efforts, my problem is the lack of sincerity in approaching this without any cultural bias. For example, any investigation into the effect of Pann on current practice of CM ragas is looked on with some suspicion. TMK's fourth paper even only talks about the effect of ragas on Panns which is an easier thing to get by. That bias among (some ) CM folks is palpable.

Not saying TMK's articles reflect this bias, far from it, in fact it is free of such things which is refreshingly good.

[vasanthakokilam]

>2. "Look, we were there first!" --- doing this music thing 2,000 years ago!

This reminds of a joke where nationalist archeologists were digging to prove who had telephony first. One country found copper wires at 50 meters...they exclaimed they had telephony 500 years back. Another country found glass at 500 meters...they exclaimed they had fiber optics telephony 5000 years back. The third country could not find anything even at 5000 meters.. they exclaimed they had wireless telephony 50000 years back!!

[Nick H]

If it had been London, they would have been doing this in the busiest street. Indpendently.

In RK Mutt Road, you can find a hole that has been there (it feels like) forever. Maybe that's the oldest telecommunications dig?

[kssr]

Where is nick's earlier post. It seems to have disappeared in this string.

[Nick H]

Has it? Oh well, I don't suppose it will be missed

I recall, in another thread, some content disappeared from one post --- but re-appeared when quoted. A symptom of the recent techie problems.

[vidya]

sr_iyer and others,
This was written in 1979. I am posting it for the benefit of those who may not have seen this.

http://musicresearch.in/categorydetails.php?imgid=119

[Enna_Solven]

Panns from what I understand are very basic music forms, that is being followed by Oduvaars and others.

kssr,

I agree with what you said about tying together things that have no relation; but you are going to the other extreme by saying what the ancient people had was something very basic. You do not have anything to support it. We have lost so much in our oral tradition that we cannot say for sure what was or what was not.

1. The people who built everlasting art in stone (Big temple - Thanjavur, the son's even more beautiful temple at Rajarajapuram - present day Darasuram) were incapable of anything but basic music form?

2. We are better, more sophisticated than our ancients? I think not. We know more, that doesn't make us sophisticated.

3. They had all the time in the world without the need to beat the traffic to get to work to earn a mundane living. Their art would have had more time to develop and flourish. Unfortunately for us, it was not wholly handed down to us; perhaps the destructive invaders from the North and the plunderers from the Atlantic seaboard broke the continuum.

[kssr]

Today's article. I think this is going to be the last

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 138945.ece

[mri_fan]

Typically, newspaper articles are written at an 8-9 grade writing level to allow a variety of people to understand it. These essays belong in a Journal on music, not a newspaper. Way too abstract for 95-99% of the population. I have no idea what he's talking about, and I think many others feel the same way.

[vasanthakokilam]

mri_fan, I agree that it is very abstract. Also it could have been better written and better edited, but you are way too dismissive of a good thing when you state it does not belong in a newspaper. And your starting premise itself is wrong. By that token, Hindu's occasional articles on physics would be out of place since it is beyond the interest of the vast majority of the population. If not for an occasional article or two like this, the general public would not get exposed to this. Even if 1% of the readership gets something out of this, that is only good. What is the big negative? Wasted space in a newspaper? Yeah, right...

[mri_fan]

My point is not about the subject matter, but the level that it is written at. Physics articles when present in newspapers, are not written as research papers about the most novel of findings, but are rather broken down into something that lay-people can read and begin to understand. That's what newspapers are for. This is an article for academics or advanced scholars of music. The test here is that people who want to learn about this subject that he's written about would be unable to understand it without a lot of other reading and study.

[kssr]

After all TMK should also show off his theoretical music knowledge somewhere

We are not supposed to understand it. Just say "WOW". What a brilliant research work The purpose is served.

[vasanthakokilam]

I agree that the readers would not have gotten what Chaturdandi is and what these Alapa, Thaya, Gita and Prabandha are. TMK did not explain all that in any coherent fashion but had he tried, he would have gotten further down into the weeds of music geekdom , further inviting your wrath. But I personally would not mind if that is covered. I also see that the writing style can be improved. It does read like cliff/koNar notes version with a lot of material packed together. If these are your complaints, that is fine.

But the theme of the article and the level of coverage is pretty general and accessible. The message is, there have been important composers prior to the trinity, the music we hear today can be traced back to at least 1600s, there have been many compositional forms and the well known P, AP and C form is one of the forms. When I saw the title, my first reaction is 'Oh no, not another article about the Trinity', but the beginning itself was a pleasant surprise and kept me engaged.

This subject matter is not some rocket science and I think a lot of people would have gotten the above. Purpose served. Making this a big a deal and casting it as some great research article that is beyond the comprehension of the rasikas is an affront to them. IMHO We often criticize the newspapers for dumbing down the audience but then when someone tries do something substantial and different we criticize them for not lowering themselves to the least common denominator. Come on, not fair!!

OK, going beyond all this...

One aspect that TMK raises is rather important. When and where are these keerthanas used, outside of the context of dance? We know it all grew into prominence in the 1900s but what was the situation before that? The majority of concert practice was centered on RTPs. Those are intriguing aspects. If they were not sung in art music/concert settings, what is the motivation for them ( say the trinity ) to compose them? At least in Thyagaraja's case, we can surmise that he composed them for singing in front of his Rama during the poojas and various religious events. What about MD and SS? I always wondered about that.

[sureshvv]

@kssr: I suggest that you re-read the articles as if written by a person not known to you. Seems to me that the "TMK" name in the byline is causing some angst that hinders your proper reading of the material.

@mri_fan: Please re-read the articles without consideration for where they appeared. You may be able to appreciate the content better.

[Nick H]

Suresh, I am afraid the answer is not so simple. I can put aside most of my prejudices, but I find it really hard to deal with the one against bad writing!

[sureshvv]

I agree that the readers would not have gotten what Chaturdandi is and what these Alapa, Thaya, Gita and Prabandha are. TMK did not explain all that in any coherent fashion but had he tried, he would have gotten further down into the weeds of music geekdom , further inviting your wrath.

But he explained the difference between Pada varnam and Tana varnam, so all was not lost

[sureshvv]

@Nick: I have found that focusing on the content with an earnest desire to understand it goes a long way towards getting past the hurdles engendered by style. See what I mean

[Nick H]

If I was a student, required to overcome these hurdles to pass my exams, I'd have to do that. As I am a free being (Wheeeee! ) I don't.