Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,2011

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revanthv552
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Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,2011

Post by revanthv552 »

Alliance Française of Hyderabad, organized a short duration concert of Prince Rama Varma in Hyderabad on April 2nd, 2011. The concert was held at the Green Park Hotel. Sri Mangalampalli Bala Murali Krishna(who will be performing in Hyderabad on the Ugadi day) was also present amongst the audience. Prince was accompanied by Sri S. R. Venu, who is a student of the Mysore Nagaraj and Manjunath on the violin, Sri B Harikumar on the mridangam, Sri Karthik on the Ghatam. The audience was a mixture of Europeans and Indians. The song list was:

1.Gajavadhana mam paahi-Hamsadwani-M D Ramanathan [S]
2.Akhilandeswari-Dwijavanthi-Dikshitar
3.Raminchuvarevarura-Suposhini-Thyagaraja
4.Omkaarakarini-Lavangi-BMK[R,S,T]
5.A song in French and English about the homeless people of Paris, who live under the bridges in the night
6.A song in French about the feelings of lovers who move apart
7.A naughty song(as he announced) in French
8.Thillana-Kadhanakuthuhalam-BMK

As the audience were a mixture of Europeans and Indians, Prince Rama Varma gave brief explanation about each song he performed. He announced that he would be presenting French music for a short duration after he finished the Carnatic part of the concert. He also introduced each of the accompanying artiste to the audience. He then started with the Hamsadwani song which had amazing kalpana swaram patterns. It was a perfect start. After this, he spoke of Dikshitar. He explained how Dikshitar traveled from temple to temple through out India and how he merged the ragas of Hindusthani music in to Carnatic. He then presented a short outline of Dwijavanthi and then sang Akhilandeswari. This was a soothing rendition. The hindusthani shades of the raga were unleashed beautifully. He then sang Suposhini piece. After that he explained about BMK's discovery of 4 note ragas. He presented Lavangi alapana for a while and then sang the piece. The violin support was just so amazing! I really enjoyed it. This was followed by a scintillating thaniavarthanam

After this he announced that he would be presenting French compositions for a while. He said he was performing this for the first time. He was introduced to French music and poetry when he was in his twenties and most of the songs he fell in love with were the ones whose meanings were based on sorrow. He gave a detailed meaning of every song/poem and also informed us on the details of the composer/poet. He presented the first song in French and English. I could not grab the French lines of the lyrics. But when the English part came I could understand the picture the song was explaining. He presented a brief introduction to each of the compositions. I could not note all that in my notes. But I could grasp the lines here and there. The first composition was actually a sad song, which talks of the plight in which the homeless live in Paris. The bridges of Paris are full of color and life during the day, but in the night they are flocked by homeless people. Though the song had a sad meaning, the tune seemed very happy. I am not sure, but I felt this was based on Shankarabharanam scale.

The next song was composed by a Belgian. It was a sad song which talks of Lovers who break apart. He explained a lot about the Composer of this song and mentioned that his compositions always revolved around the emotions. He said, this song was about the man who is ditched by a woman. He tells her that he'd want to remain as her shadow, or at least as a shadow of her shadow, if not that, at least the shadow of her pet dog. Rama Varma explained it very well, however my report can not reach even 0.5% of what he explained. He created a complete wonderful picture of the poem in front of the audience. I totally enjoyed all that he sang and explained. A complete different experience it was! I felt the song was based on the scale of Keeravani. Next he moved to what he called a naughty song which was even banned by the French radio. He looked at the director and asked him not to be scared for he will not explain the meaning of the song anyway. The hall broke in to laughter. He just said, "The last lines of this poem say, Make this song the French Anthem" He also mentioned that this song is there on you tube. However I could not make a note of the lyrics of this song for it was French and I could not follow it. I felt this was kind of a ragamalika. The first part sounded like Shankarabharanam and the second like Keeravani. I am not sure if I am correct with my observations. One thing that amused me was, the accompanying artistes started playing in such a way that completely suited the French singing. I thought that the mridangam and ghatam would be silent when the French music was being sung. However I knew that the violin would be there, as it was basically a European instrument. But the mridangam and ghatam were also played for this song. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience. Prince Rama Varma smiled and apologized to the violinist. He said, "Sri Venu is a perfect classical musician, but I am forcing him to play this kind of music today." He then said, there was enough sad music for the day, lets conclude with a happy note. He then started a short outline of Kadhanakuthuhalam which indeed painted the scene completely with happiness. The thillana was sung very very well and everyone clearly enjoyed it.

This was the first time I heard Prince Rama Varma sing. I felt that the best thing about his music is that he enjoys a lot as he sings. There was not a little amount of discomfort or tension or anything in his face despite the fact that he was singing all this for the first time, however for a performer of his capacity, I guess there would never be any fear or tension. But he did announce that he was scared of how he'd be singing French music :) He smiles and encourages the accompanying artistes a lot while the concert goes on. He also has a pleasant sense of humor with which he could connect with the audience readily. The entire team had a wonderful time for one and a half hours. They enthralled the audience with their music and also enthralled themselves. Their enjoyment made us enjoy the concert in a better fashion. I thoroughly loved the experience! It was really wonderful to listen to a different genre of music in the Carnatic concert. This concert remains very memorable to me! Finally he concluded saying, thanks to all for being in the concert despite the World Cup final :)

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Wow - wow - wow!!
Thank you for that review, Revanth. This was definitely not a traditional concert. Our concerts are either situated in Sabhas or is free and accessible in a temple.. A five star hotel.. In the context of what we have been discussing re. the popularity of Carnatic Music and in the new thread about making it accessible to more and more listeners, I would say that this is an oppposite movement and I hope this is not repeated very much - we don't need a new and almost literal ivory tower to place Carnatic Music in. Still it would have been a pretty place to listen to good music and that certainly has pleasures I would love to have enjoyed. Still.. this aspect of the influence of the Alliance Francaise-s on our culture has never appealed to me.. Taking a living breathing phenomenon like Carnatic music and setting it up like a museum piece in a beautiful locale and admiring it. Still - Still - Still - You can see that I am torn.. I like it but deeper down, I don't, and yet the pleasures to the senses in setting up a lovely spot.. What I really don't like is the exclusivity of the location, and how a LOT of people will find it too expensive and uppity to attend. This just raises the snob - glamour value of the music and suddenly we have a lot of empty minds at the concerts.

Again, I am interested and intrigued by the French songs he sang. Did he sing them in the original tunes? I believe I can identify two of the three songs you mention. The first song you spoke of sounds like a classic French song called "Sous les Ponts de Paris" - Under the Bridges of Paris.. It doesn't begin as a sad song, it does begin with the juxtaposition of day and night-time Paris; the traffic and the joyful comings and goings during the day, but at night, the bridges belong to a different set of people. The song does sound very happy, the free air the pauper breathes under the bridge, having a bed for the night that you don't need to pay for, lovers snatching kisses under arches. The use of irony early on in the song does indicate that you need to watch out and wait for more, beyond the pretty picture of happiness he is about to paint. The sadness of the song comes out towards the end when he sings of a mother, consumed by poverty and thrown out of her home with her three small children. Cold and hungry, they submit to their intolerable, cruel plight and finally fall asleep under the bridges of Paris. The last lines bring out the sadness underlying these lives. A rough off-the-cuff translation:

If we would do even a little to calm the suffering of these destitutes
No more crimes, no more suicides in the night
Under the bridges of Paris.


But my wows at the beginning posting are mainly for the "naughty" French song.. Did he call it just naughty? That would be a definition of "understatement". I was reminded of my own comment in the new thread about a new vision in Carnatic Music (I forget the actual title), and I said that CM was being held in a tight vise-like grip it needs to be freed from, and here is Prince Rama Varma with a huge challenge even to me!!!!

Your description brought one song to mind (and there's only one song that fits) : A chanson paillarde by Georges Brassens. The chanson paillarde is always a bawdy, tawdry, raucous, supposedly erotic, drinking song. So It is usually sung in a friendly, warm atmosphere, at relaxed get-togethers by people who are quite drunk :). In fact my epithet of "erotic" is too big a word for this song, because it is vulgar rather than erotic, but the friendly, happy, mood makes pejorative "vulgar" also a rather poor word. If the director of the AF himself would be afraid that Rama Verma would explain the lyrics, then I knew that it could only be a chanson paillarde, and there is one song ending with a line about its aptness as an anthem for lonely men everywhere and that one song was also banned by French Radio, and that would be Fernande by Georges Brassens. It's really a nice, fun song, but we have periyava here, and more importantly we probably have a few children here? So I would not permit myself to translate word for word. From what I've written about this kind of song, you can tell that there is not a serious suggestion that this should be the French national anthem, but rather the Lonely Man's National Anthem. The song ends with the refrain to Daddy about how the physical expression of a man's fantasies (about Fernande, or Felicie or Leonore) won't occur on command (because for him, Lulu doesn't belong in that group). It's that kind of song!! It is such a bawdy song, I can't put it any more delicately :$ :$ :$ :$ :$

And Revanth, I couldn't stop laughing at the thought of you calling trying to identify Shankarabharanam and Keeravani! : :lol: !!!! This is a mindless song! Now here is something outrageous that Ravi Verma has introduced, and I wonder what the opinion is going to be on what can or cannot be sung in a Carnatic concert in the context of this absolutely daring chocie (though not really so daring given that it was in a foreign language for a foreign audience).. I could never ever have imagined this possible.

I was not there, so I am unable to judge this. But if I had been there, I wouldn't have been mad.. Considering that my jaw dropped on reading your review, I am shocked, but it would definitely make me think which is what I am doing, but I can't decide.

I don't know what the Belgian song was.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 03 Apr 2011, 22:10, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

My original posting had a few more smilies here and there, but I meant to SMILE but these smilies look like laughs and my posting felt as bawdy as the topic I was writing about, and I've removed most of them.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Brassens is in fact a great French poet of the 20th century with a huge following even today. In addition to his own wide variety of songs, he has set older French poetry to music (including Francois Villon, the first (15th century) poet in Ponbhairavi's anthology of translated poems). I really wonder about Prince Rama Verma's choice of concluding (almost) with a chanson paillarde and and how this went down with his audience who came to this nice place to be entertained by nothing less than an Indian prince!! And what do they get? A chanson paillarde!! Revanth, could you tell us about the audience reaction? You did say they laughed, but that was at the comment BEFORE the piece.

rshankar
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by rshankar »

Ranganayaki - even the 'naughty' french songs seem to be paens of decorum compared to some of our jAvaLis and padams...which were/are blithely (and hopefully, in complete ignorance of their meaning) presented by many a singer.
BTW, I am impressed with your knowledge of freinch poetry/songs....

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Oddly, I just found this video of this song by none other (or less) than Carla Bruni, the French President Sarkozy's wife:

Well, she certainly is being naughty, and she begins her piece by saying:

"This is a song by Georges Brassens..." And then she naughily narrows her eyes and says conspiratorially that it is banned on (by) French Radio.

She goes on to say that it is a song "that they advised me against singing for you, but I will sing it for you anyway."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f03KAiuMVRw.. There is really only one (repeated) vulgar word, the song is quite poetic at times, conversational at others and, but the tawdriness and vulgarity is the point of the song, and runs like a vein throughout the song.


May be Rama Verma thought that if Carla Bruni could do it.. so can he.. :) May be he saw this same video and found her naughty. But the SONG is not naughty, it is MUCH worse! AND we don't know if this recording was from before or after she became First Lady. I have no idea what her new status has done to her singing career. I have not followed that.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 03 Apr 2011, 22:16, edited 2 times in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Oh, I found this gem, and I watched it, found myself smiling..

This one is the same song, sung by Brassens himself and unlike the Carla Bruni video, you get the ambience of fun too.. Brassens smiles at the points where it becomes a little vulgar, and the guys sitting around join in the singing.. But obviously, this is a part of a performance and no one is drunk! But everyone is having fun and enjoying themselves!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQoLSqVG ... playnext=2

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Shankar, I did think of that.. but as far as I know, the songs in the javalis that you mention are in beautiful high-quality language.. This song is in nice language also, but the main part that is repeated again and again, would use hard slang.. French "argot".. Which won't be included in a French-English beginner's dictionary. Or in many more complete dictionaries, especially older ones. So it is not just the topic of sexuality, but the crass words in these songs (single word in this case).

So the ideas in the javalis could be veiled by the poetry but here there is no veil. It is all bare and in-your-face. There is absolutely NO decorum. In fact it is quite the opposite.

P.S.: Apparently my link is a playlist, and the songs are all Brassens songs, and so I hope you will listen to more and enjoy them.

mahavishnu
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by mahavishnu »

wow, Ranganayaki. This review has set off the writing muse in you.
Fascinating introduction to the world of Brassens, Bruni and the tradition of 15th century European Javalis.

Revanth, thanks for your coverage of what appears to be an excellent concert from Le "Naughty" Prince .

arasi
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by arasi »

Revanth,
I have a feeling you are overwhelmed by all this! After all, no one walked out, even those who knew the language!

Ravi,
Just my thoughts! I have not seen anyone walking out in protest in a traditional CM concert when a jAvali or padam is sung ;) RV after all stuck to the pattern of some of the traditional concerts, adding the chansons--with the venue in mind.
If my french were that good, if I had understood all the words, I would have blushed here and there, just as I do when I hear the native naughty songs in telugu or tamizh...
Anyway, Rama Varma is a performer known for his warmth and his being encouraging when it comes to his accompanists. The general impression is that he loves his music and draws his audience into it because it resonates in listeners who love music (mainly CM) too. The prince treats common folks as equals, no doubt!

Ranganayaki,
Nice to have someone very well-versed in french on Rasikas! I'm reading Ponbhairavi's translations too . Such good reading.

arasi
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by arasi »

Mahavishnu,
le pauvre prince!

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Ranganayaki wrote: So it is not just the topic of censored word, but the crass words in these songs (single word in this case).
I was surprised that one of MY words was censored, and realize why, still I would like to be understood clearly. My "censored word" was spelt almost like "sensuality", but with one of the "n"s replaced by the letter x. I'm being unnecessarily ambiguous, just in case we have 10 year olds who may be shocked.

Moderators, we are a group of decent people and I think you could consider un-banning the use of this word on the forum to begin with, in the light of the changes to the music itself that we are trying to discuss, especially if we don't have under 12 year olds on the forum, but I wouldn't know that.

:)

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Mahavishnu,
I enjoyed your word play! Very apt! :)

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Arasi, please look at my posting number 8. There is a definite difference between the javalis and this. I would not get up in arms about it at all, but when each of you makes up your mind on this, you should know that it is not really comparable to the enjoyment of the javalis. This is more vulgar by many many degrees - it is the difference between "crass" and "sensual".

Please all of you don't think that I (of all people) am speaking AGAINST Rama Verma and his choice.. my words are not to be interpreted thus. My writing today was only to say explicitly what he sang about, and open the topic to a discussion and to personal decisions KNOWING exactly what we are talking about. If anyone wants a word for word translation of the song, please email me privately. In fact, I am VERY fascinated by what he has done, and to a great extent this is what I was talking about when I said something about feeling fearless. But I never thought of this :)

mahavishnu
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by mahavishnu »

Revanth, in all this excitement, we seem to have forgotten the le pauvre violiniste. His name is Avaneeswaram S.R. Vinu (not Venu). He is a regular accompanist for Rama Varma.

Arasi, I know few who are as gracious to their fellow musicians as Sri Rama Varma.
Here is a video to further illustrate this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHEFvXUsFE4

Ranganayaki: Mme Bruni's videos are incredible. I never had a context to appreciate her musical side. Now I do. Atleast for this reason, I hope the Le Pen family doesn't get any more traction in the French polls!
Last edited by mahavishnu on 04 Apr 2011, 03:40, edited 1 time in total.

Nick H
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Nick H »

What a fascinating review and thread!

I know that Rama Varma has a great love of French language: I had no idea how deep and broad was his knowledge! He's a huge fan of Mozart, as well, by the way, although people are probably aware of that already from some of his internet writings.

I don't think that performing carnatic music in a five-star hotel is putting it in an ivory tower, by the way. No more than performing it in concert halls around the world (like the TNK concert I saw in Singapore last week) where the ticket price is expensive by local standards, and enough to make us weep.

How do we call this? Can we call it a "fusion" concert, because it contained different kinds of music? Or can we not use that word because each item was not an example of "fusion" as such. I think we need a new word for a new kind of presentation. I think it is a brave experiment.

I also think that Sarkozy is a lucky man :$ ]:) :$

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Mahavishnu,
Did you misread the 15th century part? The song is very much 20th century, and so is Brassens. Brassens has set to music a 15th century poet's work. At least one poem, I am not sure if he has done any other 15th century works. So it is not 15th century European Javali.

sindhu29
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by sindhu29 »

Thanks a lot Revanth for the excellent review. Just a few
clarifications to Ranganayaki,
1) Though the concert was at the Green Park hotel, it was not ticketed
and the passes were free. It was attended largely by the normal
carnatic music loving crowd and was not
in an ivory tower at all. It was just a pleasing, aesthetic setting.
2) Varma gave equally pertinent and insightful intros to All the
composers whose compositions he sang, including M.D.Ramanathan,
Dikshitar, Thyagaraja, Balanmurali, et al.
3) The concert was announced as a friendly cultural coming together of
India and France which was what it was, in essence. Mr.Varma sang
carnatic songs in pure carnatic
style and the French songs in their original tunes. I don't know much
French though I am learning for a few months now, but I heard the
French people in the audience go on exclaiming after the concert that
his French was impeccable. He spoke a bit in French too.
4) He did Not sing any naughty song. He only spoke about great French
singers like Jacques Brel, Georges Brassens, Edith Piaf and so on.
Just like he introduced the Carnatic
greats to the Europeans in the audience, he gave little insights into
these great French singers. Ranganayaki's elaborate response even to
Revanth's review gives ample evidence of
just how successful he was in his mission.
5) The three French songs he sang were, Under The Bridges of Paris, Ne
Me Quitte Pas and Plaisir d'amour. (I looked up these songs on youtube
too afterwards, as I did several singers that Varma had mentioned.)
I, along with Revanth and many others who were lucky enough to be
there yesterday despite the cricket world cup, will not forget this
evening for a long long time for sure :-)

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

mahavishnu wrote:Revanth, in all this excitement, we seem to have forgotten the le pauvre violiniste. His name is Avaneeswaran S.R. Vinu (not Venu). He is a regular accompanist for Rama Varma.

Arasi, I know few who are as gracious to their fellow musicians as Sri Rama Varma.
Here is a video to further illustrate this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHEFvXUsFE4

Ranganayaki: Mme Bruni's videos are incredible. I never had a context to appreciate her musical side. Now I do. Atleast for this reason, I hope the Le Pen family doesn't get any more traction in the French polls!
I did have the pauvre violoniste in mind, but did forget to mention him. I guess he is responding in kind to Sri Rama Varma. I imagine that if they are a regular team, then they did have a discussion about the song. So I guess he is being very gracious in turn :). I would love to learn of his own impressions though of the song.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sindhu,
Then may be we need a further clarification and response from Revanth. Plaisir d'Amour is another lovely classic.. But Revanth did say that his piece was a naughty song, and was banned by French radio and ended with a line about the national anthem. That would be this piece I spoke about. If he did not SING that piece, I don't understand why in a concert, he would praise all these artists and choose to highlight a very bawdy song, rather than the dozens of others he could have spoken about re. Brassens. It doesn't make sense.

I think we need Revanth's views here.

Sindhu, I really did not need clarifications numbers 2 and 3. I think I truly understand the spirit and I have clearly made no judgements. I was just astounded at the completely new kind of song in a concert, and I believe I might be one of the few people in this who can actually talk about these songs, so I tried to explain them as well as I could. Just because I used the words bawdy and tawdry and raucus (In quotes, please), doesn't mean I think the singer is any of these things, or that I think he has done anything bad. These are the only words that can possibly be used to describe a chanson paillarde. Ravi Verma himself would say that.

If he did not sing that song, then my entire posting is meaningless. But I am not convinced of that. I am convinced that he did sing that song based on Revanth's posting about his words. Please tell me how you came up with the titles.

If I have written about the wrong song, I will take it all out, with my apologies. Please let me know.

Ne Me Quitte Pas is a breathy song, that did not come to mind.
Sous les Ponts de Paris - we are agreed on.
I'm waiting to hear from Revanth about the third song.

rshankar
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by rshankar »

Ranganayaki - I will agree to disagree with you on the 'classiness' of jAvaLis! :)
For example, even in the rather 'inoffensive' jAvaLi, SivadIksha, there is explicit (and crass) description of the wandering hands of none other than vishNu taking liberties with the nAyika's (truly, a courtesan) anatomy even as she is arguing with him that she is a Saivaite, and therefore, can't entertain him. If we look at someone like purandara dAsa, check out the song, cikkavanO ivanu - very explicit. Culturally, these were considered appropriate, because, in hinduism, s - x, lust etc are considered to be parts of life, and divinity is discerned even in these rather base human activities and passions - (union of jIvAtma and paramAtmA etc...)

arasi
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by arasi »

Ranganayaki,
Cultural expressions differ, but in content and intent, all are the same, given the context. The west (again, in this context) considers Kama Sutra a classic. It is like taking the courts and temples away and replacing them with a tavern or a boite.
Just as you say, we needn't judge either the event or the performer here--that it happened in the holy land of India ;)
The prince is called Rama Varma and not Ravi Varma.
As for the five star hotel, haven't we had some concerts in them in Chennai too?
Fusion concerts are happening everywhere now (a few of them very good too). Here's a different kind of fusion, that's all.
RV didn't sing the CM pieces the french way or the french ones in ghana rAgams and I'm happy about it!

Ravi,
I wondered about Vinu too. Of course, Venu and Vinu sound similar when being announced.

rajeshnat
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by rajeshnat »

ranganayaki
Your inputs are wonderful, I am one of those who has not experienced anything foreign in a carnatic concert other than western note of HMB. Despite you and revanth who has enjoyed the concert, I still do not get the necessity of diluting our musical concert with these french songs that too with three numbers(one is fine , give that artistic license) .

Long back in a concert in 2002 or 2003 (My review went with sangeetham.com), TN SeshagOpalan had a concert in Russian consulate in chennai , there were many russian dignataires , TNS spoke a line about how BharathiyAr wrote one poem or song and referred Russia in that line , he sang after that in a concert where that line was some thing like "russia nAttil" in thilang. That is bringing in foreign reference to CM .

While I appreciate rama verma's multifaceted personality and his deep male throated voice, instead of striving to present the core CM, rama verma is diluting out CM content in concerts, presenting 3 French nos and one lavangi as main.

To me irrespective of the audience mix or the venue , the carnatic Music has to be represented as Karnatic music.Period.

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by rajeshnat »

sindhu
By any chance can we get the sample of those french nos that he sang , is that there in you tube (asking what shri rama verma sang)

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1764
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

sindhu29 wrote:5) The three French songs he sang were, Under The Bridges of Paris, Ne
Me Quitte Pas and Plaisir d'amour.
Sindhu, and all,
I think you are right about Ne Me Quitte Pas.. This is a song that I don't enjoy very much, mainly because the way he sings the words "Ne Me Quitte Pas" (Don't Leave Me) has always irritated me.. It is a famous song, just I don't like it, and I have rarely listened to the whole song.. these words appear so many times in the song, that I have always turned it off which explains why I did not recognize Revanth's description of the protagonist's wanting to be all kinds of shadows - these words are at the very end.

1. So the Belgian singer's song that Revanth mentioned is obviously Jacques Brel's "Ne me Quitte Pas". This is the one with the lines about shadows and we are agreed on that one.

... Won't you allow me to become
Just a shadow ...
Of your shadow
Of your little hand
A shadow of your dog at least
Don't leave me, Don't leave me, Don't leave me, Don't --- Leave--- Me (eew) :).. sorry can't help writing my reaction in..

2. The second song is Sous Les Ponts de Paris (Under the Bridges of Paris) that I have described above and here's one version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLLVN9oVqYI
Here too, we agree.

3. The third one is up in the air, but I'm convinced that it is the Brassens song - the same one sung by Bruni and not Plaisir d'Amour (The Joy of Love) - a lovely, lovely song, and my favorite version was sung by this singer called Nana Mouskouri with an angelic voice that is clear as a bell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WvXpgLtTwY

The lyrics go:

Plaisir d'amour ne dure qu'un moment
chagrin d'amour dure toute la vie.
...

The joy of love is fleeting
The pain of love lasts forever

This would be a lovely song to sing, but I am still waiting for Revanth's word.

mahavishnu
Posts: 3341
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by mahavishnu »

Ranganayaki: i have sent you a msg through the forum email. I'm letting you know in case it ends up in your spam folder.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

...
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 04 Apr 2011, 10:39, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by arasi »

Revanth,
Where are you? We need a good reviewer like you! We still miss Music4ever who used to take part in our discussions once!

Rajesh,
Don't take this too seriously, please!
RV's ancestor was partial to HM. Many years after him, isn't his descendant allowed to dabble in some french music in a single concert? He is not going to continue to do this and you know that! As for TNS, it was very nice of him to sing BArati's hymn to Russia. He's another musician who is not afraid to experiment. He sang the tamizh song about Russia but had he known Russian, he would have sung a russian song too, I guess...;)

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Nick and Sindhu,
Your points about the "ivory tower" comment are well taken.
Nick, from what you say, it looks like the Prince Rama Verma is a man after my own heart!! :) French, French music, and Mozart.. Two of these are abiding interests and one is a passion of mine! And I love his voice, I only discovered it recently - I had never heard of him even a month and a half ago. I had seen some youtube videos of him, though, and didn't know who he was.

vgovindan
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by vgovindan »

...Deleted...
Last edited by vgovindan on 04 Apr 2011, 11:00, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Dear Govindan,
Thank you so much. It was very, very kind of you to oblige.

Nick H
Posts: 9472
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Nick H »

rajeshnat wrote:I still do not get the necessity of diluting our musical concert with these french songs that too with three numbers(one is fine , give that artistic license) .
Not a necessity, but a choice.
While I appreciate rama verma's multifaceted personality and his deep male throated voice, instead of striving to present the core CM, rama verma is diluting out CM content in concerts, presenting 3 French nos and one lavangi as main.
Or how would you talk about a performance of French songs in which three carnatic songs were included? Would you speak of a dilution of French music?
To me irrespective of the audience mix or the venue , the carnatic Music has to be represented as Karnatic music.Period.
A carnatic musician can never sing anything else? A concert can only be of one kind? A performance can never include more than one kind of music? I don't think that passes the basic reasonability test.

I have no idea whether or not this concert would have worked for me, or for you. I suspect that both of us would be happier in our pure carnatic concerts: that's fine, we don't have to go and listen to RV singing in French!

sureshvv
Posts: 5542
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by sureshvv »

rshankar wrote: divinity is discerned even in these rather base human activities and passions
Love the "discerned". Great choice of words!

sindhu29
Posts: 43
Joined: 29 Mar 2011, 20:01

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by sindhu29 »

rajeshnat wrote:ranganayaki
Your inputs are wonderful, I am one of those who has not experienced anything foreign in a carnatic concert other than western note of HMB. Despite you and revanth who has enjoyed the concert, I still do not get the necessity of diluting our musical concert with these french songs that too with three numbers(one is fine , give that artistic license) .
Long back in a concert in 2002 or 2003 (My review went with sangeetham.com), TN SeshagOpalan had a concert in Russian consulate in chennai , there were many russian dignataires , TNS spoke a line about how BharathiyAr wrote one poem or song and referred Russia in that line , he sang after that in a concert where that line was some thing like "russia nAttil" in thilang. That is bringing in foreign reference to CM .

While I appreciate rama verma's multifaceted personality and his deep male throated voice, instead of striving to present the core CM, rama verma is diluting out CM content in concerts, presenting 3 French nos and one lavangi as main.

To me irrespective of the audience mix or the venue , the carnatic Music has to be represented as Karnatic music.Period.
I am new to this forum and this whole discussion has turned out quite interesting. :) I don't think it was about necessity. It was arranged by the Alliance Francaise and they had requested it. The French audience as well as the Indian audience were sooooo thrilled that a Carnatic musician who can sing your regular Thodi and Bairavi could also sing impeccably in French. I would say Varma actullay got many of them hooked on to carnatic music too! Isn't this what we all want? Our music to spread far and wide? Just so you're clear, this was not a FUSION concert and no Carnatic compostion was "diluted". And again, this was not announced as a pure Carnatic concert. From the beginning, it was announced as a concert where Varma would be singing Carnatic songs followed by 3 French songs. I love Carnatic music very very very much. In fact I rarely listen to anything else. That is only because I find it melodious. Melody is the underling factor here. And so when someone sings French songs so melodiously, I have no problem listening to it and loving it. Isn't the "enjoyability" fatcor most important whatever the music maybe?? End of the day, music is universal. I am sure had you been there, Rajeshnat, you would have enjoyed the Carnatic songs as Carnatic music was represented as Carnatic music. :) Of course, we are all entitled to our own opinions. Be it Varma or anyone else, as long as the audience present there knows why they are there and are able to enjoy it, I am sure none of us will have any problem whatsoever. :) A few of my "pure carnatic music" listening friends (all old women who have never heard anything apart from CM their entire lives) came for the concert and they were floored by how melodious both, his Carnatic rendition as well as French rendition were sounding. I was actaully stunned by the amount they loved it. Cheers to good music (irrespetive of the singer or the song)! :)

sindhu29
Posts: 43
Joined: 29 Mar 2011, 20:01

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by sindhu29 »

Ranganayaki wrote:Nick and Sindhu,
Your points about the "ivory tower" comment are well taken.
Nick, from what you say, it looks like the Prince Rama Verma is a man after my own heart!! :) French, French music, and Mozart.. Two of these are abiding interests and one is a passion of mine! And I love his voice, I only discovered it recently - I had never heard of him even a month and a half ago. I had seen some youtube videos of him, though, and didn't know who he was.
Wonderful that you have such good knowledge of French music. I am learning French too. :) I know he sang those songs because my classmates from the AF wrote them down. He just mentioned about the "naughty" song, but said that it CANNOT be sung in such a forum. I understand you misunderstood that point, but that happens to all of us. :) Cheers to good music! :)

Nick H
Posts: 9472
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Nick H »

A few of my "pure carnatic music" listening friends (all old women who have never heard anything apart from CM their entire lives) came for the concert and they were floored by how melodious both, his Carnatic rendition as well as French rendition were sounding. I was actaully stunned by the amount they loved it.
Sindhu, unlike Varma, and many others on this thread, I don't much like French language sound at all. I'm also inclined to Rajesh's camp: I prefer my concerts to be just carnatic. However, you are making even me wish that I had been there: I might have been converted to to some of the French singing!

Those of us who were not there can talk about the concept, and express our opinions, but we should not forget that we were not there, and we do not know the ethos and intention of the event.

Sindhu, I think the rest of your comments make a lot of sense.

revanthv552
Posts: 449
Joined: 31 Jan 2008, 22:26

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by revanthv552 »

arasi wrote:Revanth,
Where are you? We need a good reviewer like you! We still miss Music4ever who used to take part in our discussions once!
Thank you arasi.

Ranganayaki wrote:Sindhu,
Then may be we need a further clarification and response from Revanth. Plaisir d'Amour is another lovely classic.. But Revanth did say that his piece was a naughty song, and was banned by French radio and ended with a line about the national anthem. That would be this piece I spoke about. If he did not SING that piece, I don't understand why in a concert, he would praise all these artists and choose to highlight a very bawdy song,
Prince Rama Varma, did announce that the song is a naughty one and did ask the director not to worry, for he was not going to explain the lyrics. I did not know that the lyrics were explicit or if the song was "bawdy". All I remember was him talking of the song. He did mention of Carla Brunei and I remember I enjoyed the "music" part of it. I am not at all familiar to French, So I could not talk of the lyrics or the meanings. And he did not high light any song! every song that was sung was preceded by a brief explanation about the composer and the composition. He did equal justice to every piece that was sung. In case my post made you feel that he highlighted the last French song, then I guess you misunderstood it. And he did explain a lot about Dikshitar incorporating hindusthani raagas and also about BMk's four noted ragas.

And Ranganayaki, about your comments on me guessing the ragas, well whatever the lyrics meant, the songs were definitely tuned to some scale and to my knowledge it sounded closer to Shankarabharanam and another closer to Keeravani.
sindhu29 wrote:Thanks a lot Revanth for the excellent review. Just a few
clarifications to Ranganayaki,
1) Though the concert was at the Green Park hotel, it was not ticketed
and the passes were free. It was attended largely by the normal
carnatic music loving crowd and was not
in an ivory tower at all. It was just a pleasing, aesthetic setting.
2) Varma gave equally pertinent and insightful intros to All the
composers whose compositions he sang, including M.D.Ramanathan,
Dikshitar, Thyagaraja, Balanmurali, et al.
3) The concert was announced as a friendly cultural coming together of
India and France which was what it was, in essence. Mr.Varma sang
carnatic songs in pure carnatic
style and the French songs in their original tunes. I don't know much
French though I am learning for a few months now, but I heard the
French people in the audience go on exclaiming after the concert that
his French was impeccable. He spoke a bit in French too.
4) He did Not sing any naughty song.
5) The three French songs he sang were, Under The Bridges of Paris, Ne
Me Quitte Pas and Plaisir d'amour. (I looked up these songs on youtube
too afterwards, as I did several singers that Varma had mentioned.)
I, along with Revanth and many others who were lucky enough to be
there yesterday despite the cricket world cup, will not forget this
evening for a long long time for sure :-)
Yes, I did enjoy the music. The first part of the concert was very traditional. No doubts on that. Thank you Sindhu for posting the details of the French songs. I am not at all familiar with any of it, So I wrote of what I remembered and understood. I think your comments about the French songs would clarify the things.

Somewhere in the thread, I read that singing Lavangi and French pieces diluted the essence or something like that. But frankly I believe, the Lavangi was very well handled. The concert was a very short duration one, So the alapana was not very long. When a singer is confident about singing a four noted raga and we are able to enjoy it! Whats the point in calling it a dilution? These are totally my views, I am not imposing it on anyone. And coming to the French pieces, as the concert had a good number of French people, Rama Varma chose to cater them with those songs too! If it were a complete Carnatic rasika oriented concert organized by the sabhas of Hyderabad whose duration could go uptil two and a half hours, I think he would not have ventured in to this and I am sure we would have had a good amount of time for the main piece to be sung in detail with proper time for alapana,neraval,kalpanaswaram and neraval.

Anyways, I gave a report of what I understood from the concert and what I remembered! In case I made a mistake somewhere in my report, I apologize for that.
Thanks,
Revanth

sindhu29
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Joined: 29 Mar 2011, 20:01

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by sindhu29 »

Revanth,

Yes, Varma spoke about "Fernande" (the naughty song) and said Carla Bruni has sung it although it was banned by the French Govt itself as the lyrics are such and hence, he could not sing it in such a forum. :) His knowledge of French music created such a positive, binding atmosphere for the carnatic and French members of the audience. And he went on to sing the other 2 songs I mentioned. Thank you for a wonderful review. I loved your take on the raagas. This is what music must accomplish- bind us together. :)

revanthv552
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Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by revanthv552 »

sindhu29 wrote:I loved your take on the raagas. This is what music must accomplish- bind us together. :)
Pleasure! :) Its good to see more and more Hyderabadis on the forum! Hope the concert scene in Hyderabad becomes brighter :)

arasi
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Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by arasi »

Revanth,
Ah, there you are!
Your wishes and all our wishes seem to be coming true. We see more concerts happening in your town! Bring back the star performers a few more times a year and preface them with short concerts to showcase young CM performers. Convince sponsors that they are helping in the cultural growth of a technologically and commercially important city. Have a mammoth Venkateswara festival where the songs are mainly about that magnificent deity who is bound to bless the eager citizens with a bounty of music from that moment on! After all, He is known for his vara prasAdam! No harm in name dropping in this case. Industrialists have a big soft corner for the resident of the Tirumala...

arasi
Posts: 16873
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by arasi »

Sindhu,
Yes, more for the rally!

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1764
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Whoa!!! So much has happened while I was sleeping!

So Sindhu, it appears you were right, and Revanth was not certain at all on what songs were sung!!

And Revanth, I am not sure if you are a little irritated at me for the comment about trying to guess the ragas of this song! I was not making fun of you at all, it was just part of my reaction to the mood of fun and outrageousness that I thought Rama Varma was creating. It really wasn’t anything personal and if you were hurt, I apologize.

Thanks to others who during this discussion made kind comments about my French and about my “knowledge” of French music. It is just a part of my life and I have never thought there was anything particularly impressive about what I know of the music, but I certainly was fascinated that I was able to reach into some corner of my memory and pull this song out, and it was the right one!! I’d heard it just once, and it was not on tape, but it was just something that sprang up in a corner of a huge group on New Year’s Eve in a French village. I had thought that the chansons paillardes were just crazy songs that developed like pimples, with unknown authorship. And I was surprised to know that one had been sung by Brassens. By the way, I only know of the genre from talking about it, and haven’t heard a single other. I had tried to get someone to sing me one, out of curiosity, but I became glad that they hadn’t obliged. Once I heard this song, I thought I would let that be. I got the drift, and one was enough.


Regarding Rajeshnat’s comment, apart from the bridging and the overall service of cultural relations that organizations like the AF aim to perform, my belief is that music is universal and it is a free world. If the artist has been invited by a private group which would be happy with a certain kind of performance and if they have the ability to deliver that, then they have the perfect right to do it, and those who don’t like it have the perfect right not to listen. Everyone knows that the Prince would not perform this blending in any conventional venue.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 05 Apr 2011, 01:51, edited 3 times in total.

revanthv552
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Joined: 31 Jan 2008, 22:26

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by revanthv552 »

arasi wrote: Have a mammoth Venkateswara festival where the songs are mainly about that magnificent deity who is bound to bless the eager citizens with a bounty of music from that moment on! After all, He is known for his vara prasAdam! No harm in name dropping in this case. Industrialists have a big soft corner for the resident of the Tirumala...
Arasi, very very true! We will see if we can make this possible. Right now concentrating on bringing the carnatic-inclined youth of the city to come together and have discussions and learning sessions. It did not start. Still looking for people. Found just 5-6 till now! Hope this happens!

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1764
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Mahavishnu,
I saw your video highlighting Prince Rama Verma's graciousness and recognized the mridangist, from having just returned from a Ganesh Kumaresh concert which featured him too. I tell you, he was astounding.

Revanth, What I wrote just now reminds me: you seem to have misunderstood my use of the word "highlight".. Your answer didn't fit my thought.

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by rshankar »

sureshvv wrote: Love the "discerned". Great choice of words!
Thanks, Suresh!!

revanthv552
Posts: 449
Joined: 31 Jan 2008, 22:26

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by revanthv552 »

Ranganayaki wrote:
And Revanth, I am not sure if you are a little irritated at me for the comment about trying to guess the ragas of this song! I was not making fun of you at all, it was just part of my reaction to the mood of fun and outrageousness that I thought Rama Varma was creating. It really wasn’t anything personal and if you were hurt, I apologize. I didn’t think of that when I wrote it.
Thats absolutely fine Ranganayaki :)

Ranganayaki wrote:So again, I am faced with the meaninglessness of this thread, and again, my apologies to all.
I guess even I made a mistake by not giving a clear picture. From next time I shall be more careful when I write a concert report. My apologies to all too. I just wanted to share the concert news with the rasikas and I went on typing everything I remembered. I did re-read it three or four times, but I understand I did not give a clear picture. Will take more care from next time
Last edited by revanthv552 on 05 Apr 2011, 02:08, edited 1 time in total.

rajeshnat
Posts: 10121
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by rajeshnat »

ranganayaki
There is just too much of apologies and sorry in your last post. Over apology bug has bitten you, perhaps too much of french influence :) .

Revanth,
You definitely gave a clear picture based on what you know,thanks for your review .

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1764
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by Ranganayaki »

Yeah, Rajeshnat, you're right. I have been thinking about it myself and I have been feeling all morning that I was really too harsh on myself. I was out on a number of errands this morning and couldn't wait to get back and delete. I would never judge another member that way, so I don't need to be that strict with myself! I've removed the harshest words and needless apologies.

My posting feels about right to me now. You agree?

sindhu29
Posts: 43
Joined: 29 Mar 2011, 20:01

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by sindhu29 »

Ranganayaki,

It's but natural that we sometimes apologize too much, especially when we are faced with the futility of an action, but then again like you said, it's not necessary to be so harsh on ourselves. We are all prone to it. I had read your previous post and felt that and came back and noticed that you have deleted it. :) Whatever, you started off a great discussion and my first experience on rasikas.org has become quite memorable. :) Thanks for that! :)
Last edited by sindhu29 on 05 Apr 2011, 02:28, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
Posts: 16873
Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30

Re: Prince Rama Varma,Green Park Hotel,Hyderabad-2 April,201

Post by arasi »

If Rama Varma or his friends happen to read this thread, it's going to be like a welcome and soothing cup of tea at this hour (than a storm in a tea cup as it seemed yesterday!).
Rajesh is right, Ranganayaki. Too many apologies ;) Rajesh never hesitates to call a spade a spade ;) You have contributed positively too. You were graceful in your apology, once you realized that the concert did not include any vulgar songs. Something else is very appealing too: how when first impressions do not turn out to be true and you start to see a person in a much better light. Again, reflects your graceful ways. Thanks to Mahavishnu for helping out. Prince Charming (charming in his dealings too) goes on for too long a time, but bless him!
While I was about to post this, I saw your post. I am glad you see now that you didn't owe anyone any apology. All I want to add is--you perhaps haven't seen some threads here in the past where folks have lost their composure and have got nasty in their exchanges at times, though they are all gentlemen and ladies...

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