Ganesh Kumaresh at Indian Fine Arts, San Diego

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 17 Apr 2011, 15:11

The evening started with a felicitation of Pt. Ravi Shankar on the occasion of his 91st birthday. Balamurali Krishna, R.K Srikanthan and N. Ramani were present and they were all also going to be felicitated. It was indeed a one-of-its-kind experience seeing all these four legends together. Some old, vintage videos of Panditji were screened and it was quite amazing watching them along with panditji himself (I was sitting very close to where he was). An experience to cherish. Shankar Mahadevan gave a short performance to honor panditji. The four veterans were then felicitated. Following that was the concert by Ganesh-Kumaresh. It started only at 8:30 and they went on till 11:00 (!!) and maintained the same exuberance throughout.

I really cannot "review" this concert. I'll just say it was amazing, extraordinary, mind blowing, and leave it at that.
For those of you who have been following their and/ or Jayanthiji's music, you may be aware that they usually play a couple of instrumental compositions, i.e. without lyrics (a genre they call "ragapravaham"). I think this is a great idea. It is an absolutely welcome change in Carnatic instrumental music to go beyond lyrics-oriented compositions. And Ganeshji and Kumareshji just showed today how a concert can be super-successful without complete reliance on krithis. (I also attended their concert in San Jose last week where they played a piece which belonged to yet another genre they called "krithi darpanam": an instrumental composition that sounds exactly like a krithi when played, but doesn't have words). It's amazing how they recreate (and often improvise on) the layers/ harmonies in these ragapravaham pieces. I have to say one last thing about today's concert: I have never heard an RTP this good in a long, long time. Gave me goosebumps and I will remember this for a very long time to come.
Patri and Thanjavur Govindarajan (mridangam and thavil respectively) were completely in their elements and the thani was nothing short of brilliant. All four were so much in harmony with each other. The audience were clearly so thoroughly enjoying themselves, as was panditji too- it was very visible how immersed he was. Ah, I could go on. Here's the list:

0. Flights of Fantasy (from their album Carnatic Chills- and I highly recommend this track!) - Janaranjani; Adi; Ganesh-Kumaresh
1. Endharo - pancharatnam - Sri, Adi; Thyagaraja
2. Ragapravaham - Mayamalavagowla; Adi; Ganesh-Kumaresh
3. Ragapravaham - Reetigowlai; Mishra Chapu; Ganesh-Kumaresh
4. Ragapravaham - Kalyani with a grahabhedam at each swaram (Harikambodhi at ri, for instance); Rupakam; Ganesh-Kumaresh
5. Thanayuni - Bhairavi; Adi; Thyagaraja
6. RTP - Nasikabhushani; Adi (2) with swaras in Neelambari, Saveri, Begada, Darbar, Hindolam, Sahana

uscasdrs · Post by **uscasdrs** » 18 Apr 2011, 05:53

(edited to correct spelling)

I was not thrilled with the ragapravaham at all. There is a reason we have all these divine composers. Our music is not about playing a bunch of ragams in superfast speed. I was quite disappointed with the concert overall.

At the end, the concert was summarized aptly as a percussion oriented concert that also had melody (not actual quote, but a paraphrase).

I have listened to them in the past and was quite impressed with their adherence to tradition and was looking to more of the same; This performance was a big let-down.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 18 Apr 2011, 10:28

sindhuja
Thanks for your two reviews. Let us drop this ji for ganesh, kumaresh. Infact it is time for us to say Vidwan Pandit Ravishankar graced the occassion.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 19 Apr 2011, 00:16

I was at the DC area G-K concert and certainly enjoyed it. I think they might be on a tour promoting their notion of Ragapravaham and their concert had few kirtanas from older, established composers.

The audience reaction here, I understand, was very much like the reaction we see here from San Diego. There were people like me and Sindhuja who enjoyed it, but I heard that a lot of others didn't like it at all because the more traditional stock of kritis was not dipped into. I may write a little more about the DC experience later (when I find the little notebook I wrote my notes in), and I might just do it in this thread, rather than start a new one after such a long time. This concert was on April 3rd.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 19 Apr 2011, 00:47

In the meantime, I might just paraphrase what I remember of their explanation of ragapravaham:

They feel that although we speak of "ragabhava" and "sahitya bhava", there is no such thing as sahitya bhava (is what they seemed to say) - it is all ragabhava and they want to focus on the ragas themselves, rather than on sahitya and exploit the differences between the voice (and all our voice-oriented kritis) and the violin's own characteristics and its own possibilities that are different from what a voice can do. Admittedly, they said, this is nothing new in music, as the western tradition is full of music composed for specific instruments. But this is non-existent in CM and they want to implement the idea.

So they have decided to compose pieces with a pallavi, anupallavi and charanam format, but with no lyrics. Listening to it, you certainly get the impression of lyrics, but there are none. So it does "mirror" the keertana in its form/format, but there is no sahitya (kriti-darpanam).

My personal view is that the keertana form they give their own kritis works like a mirage.. I was distracted by the constant return to a pallavi and had to remind myself that this was not a keertana and had no lyrics. I think it would be even nicer if they introduced a new form of their own, to explore the raga like a poem, in movements, but without a pallavi, and yet without imitating western music, which makes it rather pointless. The foundation/basis for each movement has to be something specific about the raga itself - a swara or a mood, may be - but whatever it is, there should be a strong progression discernable to the listener. Just my two cents.

Frankly, I agree with the view that all bhava is in fact "raga bhava", though I think putting it in the terms they put it in will only serve to incense the easily inflammable rasika world

. I think it is in reality a little more nuanced than that. Sahitya bhava exists (when executed), but it is incidental, and falls under the wider umbrella of "ragabhava". A raga cannot bring out a bhava that its swarams cannot allow. Please feel free to correct me (hopefully in kind manner) on this. (Satyam bruyat, Priyam bruyat, my father's motto - I am thinking of another thread here, and I hope we all can remember these simple ideas in our communications. )

satyam bruyat priyam bruyat na bruyat satyam apriyam
priyam ca nanrutam bruyat esha dharmah sanatanah

namelessnerd · Post by **namelessnerd** » 19 Apr 2011, 01:56

I am surprised at some of the opinions expressed in this forum. I had the fortune of attending GK's concert in San Jose, where they mentioned about Saahitya Bhaavam. While at first, my thoughts seemed to echo that of @uscasdrs, upon further introspection, I realized that I had been myopic. Here are few reasons I came up with:

1. Personally, I attend instrumental concerts to see the beauty of carnatic music, as expressed through the instrument. This beauty, again to me, is in the raaga. The saahityam becomes a vehicle to focus on, but not the main aspect. However, the vocal based school of classical music that we are used to, makes us believe that it is about the Saahityam (again my opinion and please feel to slam me to the ground on this). What if an instrumentalist plays a kriti that I am not familiar with? Would I not be able to enjoy it? Do I tune out? If not, how different is that kriti from a composition without saahityam?
2. Even among the kritis I know, how many do I really understand? This is important, as I can appreciate the saahitya bhaavam, only when I understand the lyrics. A popular example is Jnana Mosaga. Many singers render it as Agjana mosaga, making the song mean completely the opposite. Now, if one were to not understand the meaning, but know the words by rote, to them, such a massacre would sound good saahitya bhaavam. Given my (again emphasis on my) limited understanding of the meanings, GK's point seem to make sense for me. In this context, I actually applaud the way GK played Endharo. Usually, people break it as Endaro Ma..Hanu. They render it as Endaro Mahanu (no split bowing on Ma Ha).
3. Do the words of kritis really capture the emotion? I did a little experiment with my wife and made her sing Nidhi Chaala Sukama both with the words and as aakaram. Having the words did not have an impact on my feeling emotive aspect of the song was the conclusion. However, if I were to understand the meaning, it becomes very different. I am now able to feel the potency behind the song.

I think GK have taken a bold initiative to explore instrumental carnatic music and as rasikas we should not just shun their opinions because they differ with the convention.

Now to the SD concert, I was appalled at the organization and at the review at the end. I wish Venkatachalam has just thanked the artistes than saying anything. To me, it added to the insult of making them wait for 3 hours before the concert. That it came from a respected teacher was even sadder. The less that is said about the IFAA in San Diego, the better.

uscasdrs · Post by **uscasdrs** » 19 Apr 2011, 03:49

I went in looking for a very traditional carnatic music, based on one other concert of GK that I have attended in the past (long ago) and also especially in the light of comments made by GK in Carnatic Music Idol where they were very critical of even accidental deviation from tradition. Instead, what I got was "Ragapravaham", which in my opinion, is not carnatic music, but is more like Jazz music based on carnatic ragas and talas.

I am all for experimentation and exploring new avenues. This might be one way to attract new listeners and get them hooked on to the ragas and talas in carnatic music. I wish I had known that this concert would be one such experiment. If I knew I was going to be the subject of such an experiment, my expectations would have been different and I would not have been disappointed.

There are other musicians that are known for singing mostly their own compositions. When I go to such concerts, I fully expect to hear very obscure or hitherto unknown compositions being rendered, and I am not disappointed, if they do.

Enough said.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 19 Apr 2011, 05:27

Sindhuja, thanks for the review.

Uscasdrs, I'm very, very happy I was thousands of miles away from this concert!

uscasdrs · Post by **uscasdrs** » 19 Apr 2011, 05:56

Hi Bilahari,
Missed you at the festival. I was imagining what you would have written about the GK concert had you been here. You would have summed it up in a way that there would have been no need for my post

On a different note, working on posting Smt. Seethalakshmi's concert. Will let you know as soon as I know.

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 19 Apr 2011, 06:12

Yes, Sindhuja.. thank you for your review.

uscasdrs · Post by **uscasdrs** » 19 Apr 2011, 07:02

Bilahari,
You missed a truly phenomenal concert by Sri. RK Shrikantan (who is 91). Amazing classicism, energy, crisp sangathis, ragam & swaram singing - the ragam singing was about bringing out the swaroopam of the ragam rather than showmanship. It was amazing. Remember Parasala Ponnammal's concert a few years ago? This one was almost as good. Also had a chance to listen to some other really good up and coming vocalists. Very hopeful of (pure) Carnatic music's future

Shashank's flute concert was very good too. Most of the concerts were quite good. I was running around a bit and couldn't write down the compositions presented.

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 19 Apr 2011, 10:31

* I'm not sure I understand the word "tradition". What is tradition? Something that a community or society comes up with. The beauty is that it evolves. In this case I would say Carnatic music has come full circle. Yes, there is a reason we have divine composers, but I'm not sure that reason is solely that their compositions have to be performed in a concert. Originally, there was just music: we find references to all kinds of instruments in mythology: rudraveena, flute, sarasvati veena etc.. Lyrics entered the scene much, much later. The compositions we sing today originated during the Bhakti movement if I'm not wrong. It is a welcome change that musicians like Ganesh Kumaresh are trying to separate the music aspect from the bhakti aspect and give us just pure Carnatic *music* comprising the saptaswaras and thalam. Since we are SO accustomed to associating Carnatic music with devotional themes in the form of set krithis, we look for such set patterns all the time. But there is nothing that prevents Carnatic music from going beyond that: transcending lyrics, language, region and religion and just presenting itself as pure music. I disagree that Ragapravaham is jazz. It is Carnatic *music* in its entirety. Their philosophy is simple: instrumental music need not be bound by the confines of lyrical compositions when the instruments have the potential to do much, much more. (Have we wondered why almost all world renowned Indian musicians are all instrumentalists? Pt. Ravi Shankar. Zakhir Hussain, Hariprasad Chaurasia, L. Subramanian....? They have a wider reach!)

*On Carnatic idol: That is a different ball game altogether. There is only vocal music involved. And G-K teach the kids and expect from them the right pronunciation, the right way of singing lyrics, alapanai, swaram or whatever it is. I'm curious how they would judge a carnatic idol contest if it were for instruments. Almost always in their concerts, Ganeshji keeps his violin aside and sings. Not just kalpana swarams, but also certain shlokas, tukkadas etc.. This shows that it is *not* that they think Sahithya is not important. It is only that they think that Sahithya is not important FOR instrumental music. When so many vocalists themselves mutilate a lot of words when they sing, we're somehow "more ok" with that than instrumentalists not playing krithis! I think it is just a matter of familiarity. We want to hear what we're familiar with, I guess. When we don't hear what is familiar, we can either be pleasantly surprised, or we can be disappointed

*On speed: I'm a bit surprised that people felt there was nothing but speed in their playing! The reetigowlai piece was typical chowka kaalam. The Mayamalavagowla alapanai, Nasikabhushani alapanai also showcased many, many slow phrases and was slow overall for the most part. I should admit that I wish they played the Bhairavi krithi in a slightly slower pace. But other than that, no qualms about speed.

*And I have to add that their "concert dharma" as my husband called it- was commendable. While Shashank's concert started around 7:30 and he had a flight to catch and wound up early, G-K started only at 8:30 and they played maintaing the same energy levels throughout till 11, that too only when they were *asked* to stop!

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 19 Apr 2011, 11:15

To add to the point about tradition: one of the legends we honored, Balamuralikrishna, was known for coming up with "untraditional" ideas and innovations: According to "tradition", a raga was supposed to have a minimum of 5 swaras. BMK came up with Mahathi that had only 4. An example of how tradition evolves... He's also known for singing his own compositions. But I get it- may be he is one of the people that we *expect* to do new and different things in his concerts, and so are not surprised when we don't hear standard krithis. But in general, I guess I'm just saying that innovations in compositions should be welcome and be seen as on par with standard, older compositions and not as subordinate to them: be it sahithya-laden or not.

Priya Ravi · Post by **Priya Ravi** » 19 Apr 2011, 12:00

Music and lyrics are separate entities.

In the krithi ‘Rama Nee Samanam evaru’, wont we get the saahithya bhavam / meaning if the line is sung just only once? What is the need for adding many sangathis and singing the same line again and again? By singing different sangathis for the same saahitya, we are only highlighting the musical aspect of the composition and not the lyrical aspect of it. Does anyone know how many sangathis Thyagaraja has sung / composed for this song or for any other song?

When an instrumentalist plays a Pancharatna krithi, how many of us can really identify what the instrumentalist plays - the swaram or the saahityam? I am sure not many of us can do it. When we cannot identify even this aspect, what is the role of saahitya bhavam in instruments?

We are trained to identify and appreciate instrumental music through vocal music which is not right. We have to understand the basic fact that instrumental music is different from vocal music.

Many instruments have no takers now as all along they where trying to sing through their instruments instead of exploring their instruments’ scope.

Like how the voice has different range, scope, and tone, each instrument has its own scope, tone charm and capabilities. By restricting the instruments to play only the compositions that are sung by vocalists (all the vocalists sing compositions based on lyrics), we are restricting the instruments’ scope and capabities.

How can we say that whatever Ganesh and Kumaresh play as instrumental music is not traditional? Are they not playing the composition based on a carnatic raagam or thaalam? Has anyone noticed any deviation from any of the raagam or thaalam that they have chosen to play. Whatever they are playing is “IN RAAGAM and IN THAALAM” . In the process, they are able to bring out the beauty and esthetics of the raagam and possible variations / combinations in the thaalam which have not been explored before. Not many musicans have explored the raagam Naasikabhooshani as they have done.

I recently heard an interview by violinist Kanyakumari on Podhigai TV. She too was of the opinion that carnatic music field is fully dominated by vocalists and instrumentalists are seen as mere accompanying artists.

I feel that it is the responsilibity of each and every instrumentalist to explore the scope of their own instrument and present the music that their instrument is capable of.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Apr 2011, 15:17

This is fascinating. One of the best conversations I have had the pleasure to "listen in" to.

Whilst G&K have only provided the seed for discussion of the principles involved, still I must see them again soon (its been a long time) to get a better idea of that seed.

Thanks to all for the thought provocation.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 19 Apr 2011, 15:25

Nick, it's not over yet. :devil: :devil:

Priya Ravi · Post by **Priya Ravi** » 19 Apr 2011, 16:54

Playing vocal based music on violin is like using a powerful computer for just word processing. When a computer is capable of many more actions, why limit its use to just word processing? In the similar way when a powerful instrument like violin is capable of producing much more music than vocal based ones, why should not a violinist explore all the possibilities? By making a violinist play only the vocal based compositions, we underestimate and underutilize violin's scope.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 19 Apr 2011, 18:58

Priya Ravi wrote:By restricting the instruments to play only the compositions that are sung by vocalists (all the vocalists sing compositions based on lyrics), we are restricting the instruments’ scope and capabities.

Absolutely! But the instruments are NOT (EVEN in a "traditional" instrumental-music concert, that is to say) restricted to playing only compositions that are sung by vocalists. They can play rAga AlApanai, tAnam, neraval and swara kalpana as well.

This also reminds me of bilahari's review of an Instrumental Ensemble he attended, in which he found not enough manodharma.

Priya Ravi wrote:I recently heard an interview by violinist Kanyakumari on Podhigai TV. She too was of the opinion that carnatic music field is fully dominated by vocalists and instrumentalists are seen as mere accompanying artists.

This is a different issue. However, I am reminded of this tribute to Sri T N Rajaratnam Pillai:

He said that one of the reasons why a nagaswara vidwan did not enjoy the same status as any other musician was the former's inability to resist the temptation to play cheap tunes, merely because they are popular. “In my opinion, if a nagaswara vidwan cannot render big pieces of Tyagaraja and Dikshitar as ‘Sadhinchene', and 'Sri Subrahmanyaya', he is not entitled to respect..."

-- http://harmonyom.blogspot.com/2010/12/t ... swara.html

Of course, it is two-way and sad: we tend to extend prejudice from concert to artist, and from artist to instrument, and from instrument to instrumental music!

Priya Ravi wrote:Playing vocal based music on violin is like using a powerful computer for just word processing. When a computer is capable of much more actions, why limit its use to just word processing?

Your analogy isn't entirely appropriate. Playing vocal-based music properly on the violin is no mean task. Similarly, singing "violin-based music" will also be difficult.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Apr 2011, 19:29

srikant1987 wrote:Nick, it's not over yet. :devil: :devil:

And I haven't stopped listening in!

These are topics that will run and run, quite apart from any new innovation of G&K or any other musician.

One revolution I would like to see is an end to this "tuned by" thing, as an aside and probably not even mentioned, especially for instrumental music. As far as I am concerned, the composer wrote the music. This not meant, in any way, to lessen the importance of the lyricist, and I know that I am not only way off the "traditional" view, but more aligned to the "western" view on this; both are potential reasons for the idea to fall on stony ground.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 19 Apr 2011, 19:36

Uscasdrs, yes, the RKS concert is the one I really feel bad about missing! But when I heard him in Chennai last season, his son ruined the concert with his listless and offkey singing. Glad that didn't happen in San Diego!

Looking forward to hearing more about the concerts in our festival!

I frankly have no problems with ragapravaham and other innovations. Variety is the spice of life, and there is enough variety in our music to suit every rasika. I'll personally stick to the pristine classicism of TNK, Vedavalli, Parassala Ponnammal, and their like!

uscasdrs · Post by **uscasdrs** » 19 Apr 2011, 19:54

Hi Sindhuja,

Thanks for taking the time to defend the concert. I think there is a fundamental difference of opinion here. I completely disagree with the whole premise that a krithi with manodharma somehow limits the music for instrumental music, especially in carnatic music. If every musician starts believing they can depict the ragam a lot better by doing away with the master piece krithis, I don't understand why we need the trinity and other composers any more. How come vocal music can't do "much more" like instrumental music? Why can't we allow vocal music also to be just about music? I don't understand why that needs to be bound by words?? After all, words only came in the middle! Let us see how many people would be willing to listen to vocal music that is just made up of swaras. After all, isn't it about the music? Wouldn't that be more pure "music"?

I suppose there is nothing that is important in terms of what has been established as concert paddhathi over the last couple of centuries

We can pretty much do whatever we want. After all, it is about music. Isn't it? If I have to honest, I have to say that for me what came out was not the music but the showmanship of the musicians. OK. You want to experiment - one Ragapravaham isn't enough? Three have to be done to do justice to the different ragams? I suppose there are no "good enough" krithis in Kalyani, Reetigowla or Maya Malava Gowla? As far as I was concerned, the purpose the raga "flows" served was that they made me want to "flow" out of the auditorium

I don't understand why vocal music alone needs to be limited by words - why do carnatic music idols have to pronounce the words right? After all, isn't it about the music? And why do carnatic music idols have to sing standard compositions? Will GK approve of an idol hopeful who wants to present his / her own "swaramalas" that they think depicts the ragams better? As long as they are singing the right ragam set to some thalam, why do we care about the words? After all, people don't pronounce the words well anyway. Why can't vocal music be "unbounded" as well? For that matter, why do we need rules about how a ragam needs to be presented? We can do any amount of acrobatics within the notes. All that matters is having the right notes. Isn't it? Why should carnatic music idol hopefuls not be allowed to experiment with music just as the judges are?

Yes. They did play some occasional slow phrases

but what stands out in my mind is the speed. That is what stuck. Interestingly, that is what seems to have stuck in a lot of people's minds. I wonder why? While talking about speed, I have to also tell you that I couldn't recognize the Bhairavi raga krithi. None of the people I talked to could. I didn't know it was thanayuni until I saw it on your list. That should tell you something about "speed".

The concerts that generally appeal to me are the ones that put the music above the musicians. This is my personal bias. I believe this is the ultimate goal of our music. This one was the exact opposite. The ragapravahams seem to support the premise that somehow these Ragapravaham creations by them allow the music to flourish better for instrumental music than the masterpiece krithis (with raga alapanai, niraval, and kalpana swaram) in these ragams. Not only is the statement not true but I also find that to be grandiose. And a concert needs three Ragapravahams because there are no masterpiece krithis available? I cannot in good conscience put the Reetigowla "ragapravaham" say above a "Janani ninnuvina". Possible I am too narrow-minded

Possible I am totally missing something.

Again, all of this is a problem only because of two reasons 1) this was supposed to be a carnatic music concert 2) I was really looking forward to this concert - the last one I listened to was many years ago and I thought GK were exceptional. I didn't expect these gimmicks. If this were GK's "Experimentations with music", I would have been fine with it (and avoided it

)

I was not referring to BMK in my earlier post. He presented a few of his compositions and at least 6 compositions of St. Thyagaraja and other composers. I was in general referring to a class of musicians who do their own thing.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 19 Apr 2011, 20:13

uscasdrs wrote:Hi Sindhuja,

Thanks for taking the time to defend the concert. I think there is a fundamental difference of opinion here. I completely disagree with the whole premise that a krithi with manodharma somehow limits the music for instrumental music, especially in carnatic music. If every musician starts believing they can depict the ragam a lot better by doing away with the master piece krithis, I don't understand why we need the trinity and other composers any more. How come vocal music can't do "much more" like instrumental music? Why can't we allow vocal music also to be just about music? I don't understand why that needs to be bound by words?? After all, words only came in the middle! Let us see how many people would be willing to listen to vocal music that is just made up of swaras. After all, isn't it about the music? Wouldn't that be more pure "music"?

If there is an answer to these points, I would say that it is that none of them are final or absolute. All parts of a picture, none of them is the complete picture to the exclusion of the others.

namelessnerd · Post by **namelessnerd** » 19 Apr 2011, 20:56

@uscasdrs: The concert was listed as "Flights of Fantasy". I am sure that is a good enough indicator of the concert not being a "traditional" one. I take offense to the fact that you do not see it as a carnatic concert. It was. No rules were violated. After much thought, I feel that carnatic music is seen as an exclusive club, one where only tuxedos are allowed. I beg to disagree. I am actually rushing to work, but was compelled to write this in. I will add more later. Thanks again to everyone for such a discussion and thanks to GK for creating a platform.

PS: If @uscasdrs has a problem with speed, then I am not sure how liked Shashank. From what I hear, he was running, literally and figuratively.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 19 Apr 2011, 21:22

To echo what Nick says...I applaud G and K for making us think about what is the role of instrumental music in our traditions. If nothing else, even if don't like what they're trying to do, they are forcing us to have these interesting discussions!

uscasdrs · Post by **uscasdrs** » 20 Apr 2011, 05:05

Bilahari, I thought the supporting vocalist in RKS' concert did a pretty good job. It was very good overall. I remember walking out of Parassala Ponnammal's concert a few years ago with tears in my eyes - didn't have the same impact here but it was really good. To be fair, I had some duties that took me away for a little while in the middle of the concert. Possible that impacted the overall effect on me.

Great festival overall. Very pleased with Mambalam sisters and Amrutha Murali - Vidya Kalyanaraman combo. Both concerts were excellent. Let me see if I can at least post the compositions.

Next year's festival is towards the end of March I believe. May be you can make a trip to SD around this time

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 20 Apr 2011, 06:06

Can we stick to the topic of discussion here, please...

@uscasdrs: On new compositions, in general: To start with, nobody made the claim that existing krithis are "not enough" to bring out the essence of the ragas. They may be, by all means. But why should that be a reason AT ALL to stick to them?! Looks like we come from extremely different worldviews here. My opinion is that with all due respect to the past master composers, new compositions should be welcomed too and should be decided for their quality on a case by case basis (and interestingly no one here is complaining that the reetigowlai piece for instance did not seem like reetigowlai at all- they are only asking why they played that when there are other existing compositions in reetigowlai) and not be shunned JUST BECAUSE they are new. **It is not a question of whether newer compositions are BETTER than the old ones- there is no comparison going on at all! It is only that, however good the older ones are, what is the reason to stick to them? Why shouldn't a musician say, "Hey, why don't I try to compose something in this raga too?"** It is true that some of these experiments go awry - for instance I did not really enjoy Carnatica Brothers' ensemble last year. But there is no reason to shun new compositions just because they are new. If we should only stick to old compositions, GNB need not have composed such gems because in almost all the ragas he composed, there were pre-existing compositions, many gems among them. Why ranjani niranjani when we had dunmargachara? And would GNB counted as a "divine" composer? Where do we draw the line between "divine" and "ordinary" composers? Does it only depend on chronology? Or the kind of lives they lead? But should the quality of a composition be judged based on the life the composer lead? Is that objective? To me, there is no end to composing. Be it instrumental or lyrical compositions, I don't see a point in restricting ourselves to what is already there. If we do, we are being very closed and not letting music grow.

On music being bigger than the musician: Again, I beg to disagree. To me this is more of a cliche than a truth. Without the artist(e), there is no art. True, self-indulgence cannot be the only aspect of a concert. It would indeed be annoying if a musician continuously did nothing but very overtly engage in display of talent (and L.Sub these days (may be not earlier though) is an example of this breed according to me). But that doesn't mean that "showmanship" should be entirely absent either. I think I can safely say that a a lot of singers, with their lightning speed brigas and complex kanakkus in swarams very obviously indulge in display of talent. My point is, there is nothing wrong with that! Only, there has to be a right balance between self-indulgence and letting the music take over them. And the crucial point is that merely performing one's own compositions cannot be judged as being entirely showmanship! As I see it, in playing their ragapravahams, their humility towards the composers who composed in those ragas may not have come out, but their humility to music itself- the raga bhavam - was very evident. On the other hand, when they played faster phrases and the "touch-bowing" and plucking in the thanam, I would say it was display of talent indeed. All in all, I think there was the right balance.

On sahithyam for vocal music: If vocalists gave entire concert performances in terms of swaranjalis and alapanais and no lyrics, we would be grossly limiting the human voice! It's the same argument all over again. When we can produce such a wide variety of beautiful sounds, and when humans have come up with such beautiful poetry, it doesn't make sense to ignore all of that and just sing akaarams and swaras. (Of course, I still stand by the view that existing, famous compositions are not the only compositions that should be performed, but I think I have already made that argument above) And whatever we do, we should strive to do it right: if we are using words, we better say them right! (You should see how Ganeshji's pronunciations are perfect when he sings in their concerts) The point is, sahithya bhavam is entirely missing in instrumental renditions! If you feel Thyagaraja's plea to Rama when you hear nithi chala sukhama rendered on a violin or veena, it is ONLY because you are already familiar with the lyrics and associate this rendition to the lyrics. For someone who has not heard the vocal version of the song, all that they will enjoy the bhavam of Kalyani. Ganeshji did an experiment on stage in San Jose: He played a line and asked people to identify the song. Many people thought it was manasuloni, but he said he actually played thunaipurindharul. Two songs, same tune (of course the latter is more often sung in Varamu rather than in Hindolam these days, but let us take both to be in Hindolam for the present example), played the same way- where is the sahithya bhavam when you can't even make out which one of the two he is playing? Gayaki style of playing means that you pluck and bow and pull in the right way- taking care to split the words in the right way and give the right emphasis to the syllables. But it ends there. No matter how hard you try, you cannot bring sahithya bhavam in an instrument. This being the case, G-K's argument is that they don't see a POINT in sticking to lyrical compositions for instruments. At the same time, there are songs with beautiful lyrics- which they SING on stage in order to convey the lyrics (esp some thukkadas).

On Carnatic idol: Hopefully many of my above points would have answered your questions, but let me just say one more thing: G-K were not the only judges there. Perhaps if they were the only ones, they would have encouraged the kids to do adventurous stuff. It is sad that right from day one, Carnatic music students are asked to "kill their ego". They are taught that everything they do does not belong to them and that everything comes from above. In many cases, this only turns into ugly, hypocritical, artificial humility (I've seen this in a very famous stellar vocalist whom I don't want to name- they say one thing about their guru at home but on stage dedicate everything they sing to their guru). Ego is good in the right proportions. Students should by all means be respectful of and grateful to their seniors but should also be taught to feel good and proud if they do something innovative and to say unabashedly, "I did it!".

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 20 Apr 2011, 06:21

And it is heartening to see the many GK fans here who appreciate their kind of music- thanks for your inputs!! Thanks also for the inputs of those who think otherwise- that's what making this discussion so interesting

uscasdrs · Post by **uscasdrs** » 20 Apr 2011, 07:16

Sindhuja,

I am confused. I quote from your earlier post: "But there is nothing that prevents Carnatic music from going beyond that: transcending lyrics, language, region and religion and just presenting itself as pure music." From this and other things you said, I got the impression that Ragapravahams were going beyond the limitations of lyrics and represent "pure music" giving me the impression that they were beyond / better than krithis. I didn't see the Ragapravahams doing that. That was my point. Now, you are saying they are just another new composition. Not sure which one you think it really is. I am confused...

On Carnatic music idol again, you have completely changed the argument now. You said earlier that Carnatic music idol is different because it is vocal music. Now, the reason is that G-K are not the only judges. Wonder if the reason will change yet again on the next post

Again, different people like different types of music and there is nothing wrong with that. However, I don't think I have enough ------------ (fill in the blank with whatever term you choose) to think of the Janaranjani piece played first as carnatic music for instance

I highly doubt that I will be alone in that.

You think of all this as being progressive. I see this as an exercise in seeking attention. I didn't see Kalyani, Mayamalavagowla, or Reethigowla becoming purer in the Ragapravahams. Sorry! May be I don't have the gnanam for it

After the pravahams were over and bhairavi started, I was hopeful. I was quite disappointed in how the composition in bhairavi was played (as I said, I couldn't recognize it until I saw it in on your list). This concert was disappointment after disappointment for me.

This concert was just not my cup of tea. There is no point in arguing further about it because it is a matter of preference.

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 20 Apr 2011, 09:23

Amen to the last sentence but a couple of clarifications are in order I believe.

1. I used the word "composition" in a general way: I used it to refer both to lyrical as well as instrumental pieces. So yes, ragapravahams are (new) instrumental "compositions". They go beyond language, religion etc. but that doesn't mean they are musically superior to krithis. Neither are they musically inferior. We need to decide that on a case by case basis. By transcending religion etc. they have a wider reach, because they are *purely* musical without the extra component of language. This is the sense in which I used the word "pure": *not* in the sense of being the opposite of "impure".

2. Carnatic idol: Yes, it has only been vocal music so far. As I said, the thing is: whatever you do, do it well. If you're singing, pronounce properly, have the right throw of voice, get the modulations right etc..- this is what they seem to want the participants to do. If it were an instrumental competition, I don't imagine they would harp on the idea that participants adhere to gayaki style.

And about G-K not being the only judges; this is what I said: "Hopefully many of my above points would have answered your questions, but let me just say one more thing: G-K were not the only judges there. Perhaps if they were the only ones, they would have encouraged the kids to do adventurous stuff."

So, much of what I said before this quote was also supposed to respond to your points/ questions abt Carnatic idol and this was an *additional* point. And I don't see a conflict/ contradiction. The point that they are not the only judges was a response to:

" Why should carnatic music idol hopefuls not be allowed to experiment with music just as the judges are?"

By "experiment" in this context, I meant singing their own compositions (coz I thought this was also a worry you had: you mentioned about "musicians who do their own stuff") or doing any other non-standard "adventurous stuff" like I said.

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 20 Apr 2011, 09:35

Sindhuja wrote: It is sad that right from day one, Carnatic music students are asked to "kill their ego". They are taught that everything they do does not belong to them and that everything comes from above. In many cases, this only turns into ugly, hypocritical, artificial humility

I am waiting for a Carnatic version of Justin Bieber !

uscasdrs · Post by **uscasdrs** » 20 Apr 2011, 10:13

Sindhuja,

I have a reply to every one of your points above but as I said, there is no point arguing this.

Let us just agree to disagree.

In closing, I would like to thank Lord Almighty for ensuring that G-K are not the only judges on CMI

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 21 Apr 2011, 08:10

Sindhuja wrote:Carnatic idol: Yes, it has only been vocal music so far.

In 2007, at least, there was an Instrumental Idol also: it was given to J A Jayanth: http://www.google.co.in/search?sourceid ... natic+idol

I don't think G-K judged in that, though.

Staff Reporter for The Hindu wrote:The jury for the event includes musicians including Nedunuri Krishnamurthy, T.N. Krishnan, R.K. Srikantan, N. Ramani, Umayalpuram Sivaraman, Aruna Sairam and N. Ravikiran.

‘Carnatic Idol’ contest announced

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 21 Apr 2011, 10:15

Thanks Srikant, I did not know that.

shripathi_g · Post by **shripathi_g** » 21 Apr 2011, 10:56

The listener sings in the mind. People who've been listening to vocal music for a long time cannot relate to a tune that they have no idea about. Even if they don't know the song, it's an intellectual exercise to try and determine the song or go back home and find out who has sung/played it. I'm all for innovation but not at the expense of the paying public. The Gambheeranattai ragapravaham wasn't so bad but the other two, Reethigowla and Saveri weren't up to the mark. Also, three ragapravahams (in the San Jose concert) in a row dampened the tempo of the concert for me. If they had announced the song list in advance, I'd have probably stayed away. They gave us a choice of raga for RTP. I wish they'd have given us a choice of krithi vs ragapravaham.

kalavati · Post by **kalavati** » 22 Apr 2011, 09:31

I was one of the many fortunate ones to be at this San Diego concert. I believe G&K had taken this to a new level. From my vantage point, I could observe several individuals and they were at the edge of their seat! I could see Punditji enjoying the concert and blessing them on several occasions. Unlike other honorees that day, he stayed back very late to listen to G&K. To me this is the real testament to the caliber of G&K's music!

Now some thoughts on the subject of instrumental music... Unfortunately, over the years, CM instrumentalist were reduced to playing 'elevator' music. They were very happy reproducing the vocal music in their instruments and rasikas were content with singing the kritis along in the head. Hence, the instrumental musicians were forced to select only popular kritis during their concert. All is well until you encounter a kriti you are not familiar with or an RTP. Fortunately, we could still enjoy the music at its purest form... is this not 'Ragapravagam'?! It takes monumental practice to play fast in an instrument. This the way most instrumentalist show their talent. Those who had not played an instrument can never understand or appreciate all this.

What G&K are doing is something phenomenal. They could've played popular thyagaraja kritis and received a garland of praises. Fortunately, they did not do the obvious. We have to be very respectful of what they are doing to preserve the art-form for future generations. They are risking their carriers doing what they are doing. It is rude (and insulting for the artists) of the ifaasd organizers to stop the concert they way they did on that day. I sincerely hope the young organization IFAASD learns from the mistakes and treat artists with respect.

G&K, thank you very much for the concert. Please continue your quest to expand music. There are many rasikas like myself in San Diego who can't wait for your next concert here. May God bless you.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 22 Apr 2011, 11:59

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Apr 2011, 12:08

Did G or K start singing in the middle of the concert? Nothing is more unsettling than when they attempt to sing an original composition (and not just for the purposes of demonstrating a pallavi which I always welcome) after being so vocally defensive about the scope of "pure" instrumental music.

namelessnerd · Post by **namelessnerd** » 22 Apr 2011, 12:16

It is rude (and insulting for the artists) of the ifaasd organizers to stop the concert they way they did on that day. I sincerely hope the young organization IFAASD learns from the mistakes and treat artists with respec

Apparently, the organizers thought it was OK to stop a concert that was not pure. Putting a lot of thought, I think finally our prayers in the form of "AGYANAMU SAGARADHA" (as sung my almost all of the vocalists, with great "Saahitya Bhaavam") have been answered. In not encouraging our art form, we have shown our ignorance and our desire to keep our version of gospel music (one where anything that does not praise a deity is not considered music) to our own selves. As I was remarking that day, it shows the humility of G K to not throw a tantrum after such a long delay and more so, play the concert in the right spirit. It was shameful of the organizers to cut the concert like that, but what do I know! After all, an organizer told me, "its an Indian function, organized by Indians. This is what we can do and if you dont like it, do not come".

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Apr 2011, 13:01

Sindhuja:

You make great points. That is, when you are not making sweeping generalizations (even if only to combat other sweeping generalizations made by others) or attacking non-existent strawman positions.

On music being bigger than the musician: Again, I beg to disagree. To me this is more of a cliche than a truth.

I think the cliche is that music is bigger than any particular musician (or a particular duo or trio or quartet). "Music" in abstract cannot be bigger than the "Musician" in abstract and nobody has claimed that.

The point is, sahithya bhavam is entirely missing in instrumental renditions! If you feel Thyagaraja's plea to Rama when you hear nithi chala sukhama rendered on a violin or veena, it is ONLY because you are already familiar with the lyrics and associate this rendition to the lyrics. For someone who has not heard the vocal version of the song, all that they will enjoy the bhavam of Kalyani.

Another sweeping generalization. You must be talking about certain instrumental renditions.
Generally, Carnatic Music is targeted to the people who know (or seek when they don't). If you didn't know about Thyagaraja or Rama, you could still enjoy the poetry. If you didn't know the bhavam of kalyani, you may still be able to enjoy the movement of notes. If you are tone deaf, you could still enjoy the frantic gestures made while holding the odd shaped gizmos on stage. The idea is to learn and know more in order to increase the manner you enjoy (rasichufy?) the music.

Ganeshji did an experiment on stage in San Jose: He played a line and asked people to identify the song. Many people thought it was manasuloni, but he said he actually played thunaipurindharul. Two songs, same tune (of course the latter is more often sung in Varamu rather than in Hindolam these days, but let us take both to be in Hindolam for the present example)

Actually both are in Varamu (aka Shuddha Hindolam).

No matter how hard you try, you cannot bring sahithya bhavam in an instrument.

It is actually the mind where sahitya bhavam burgeons whether it is triggered by an instrument or by a vocal rendition. You just need to have worked harder to get to this state with GK

At the same time, there are songs with beautiful lyrics- which they SING on stage in order to convey the lyrics (esp some thukkadas).

Yep.. Its all very confusing! Thats why I would rather listen to Jayanthi Kumaresh

It is sad that right from day one, Carnatic music students are asked to "kill their ego".
They are taught that everything they do does not belong to them and that everything comes from above. In many cases, this only turns into ugly, hypocritical, artificial humility (I've seen this in a very famous stellar vocalist whom I don't want to name- they say one thing about their guru at home but on stage dedicate everything they sing to their guru). Ego is good in the right proportions. Students should by all means be respectful of and grateful to their seniors but should also be taught to feel good and proud if they do something innovative and to say unabashedly, "I did it!".

Ego, in general is very dangerous and not just for Carnatic music students. Because it blurs your perspective. And there is nothing hypocritical or artificial when you say different things in different settings about someone you know well when it is all equally true.

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 22 Apr 2011, 14:22

"Music" in abstract cannot be bigger than the "Musician" in abstract and nobody has claimed that.

I'm not sure I understand this statement. My statement was a response to something along the lines of "Every musician should put (obviously, his/her) music above himself/herself." When you abstract from "every musician" you get "The Musician" and from "their music", "Music". This was my understanding. Apologies if I misunderstood the original claim about music being bigger than the musician; but if I didn't then this is probably a confusion (or error on my part) only about semantics.

Generally, Carnatic Music is targeted to the people who know (or seek when they don't). If you didn't know about Thyagaraja or Rama, you could still enjoy the poetry. If you didn't know the bhavam of kalyani, you may still be able to enjoy the movement of notes. If you are tone deaf, you could still enjoy the frantic gestures made while holding the odd shaped gizmos on stage. The idea is to learn and know more in order to increase the manner you enjoy (rasichufy?) the music.

Point well taken. But I take it that you don't object to my point that sahithya bhavam resides in the mind of the listener and not in the rendition of the instrumentalist (according to gayaki style, you need to be sensitive to the syllables, pluck and bow and pull properly and break at appropriate points, but none of this brings out the *bhavam* of the lyrics by itself: it needs the mental input of the listener). Sure, knowing the krithi and the words gives you that extra self-gratification, and may be for some people it genuinely enhances the overall experience/ enjoyment of the song. But I doubt if majority of the rasikas are of this kind. How many of us know every word/ meaning of every krithi in a standard concert? And does not knowing all the words really discourage us from listening and enjoying to the music? Say we know the pallavi of a certain krithi but not the rest of the song (and this is a VERY common situation): do we then enjoy the pallavi more than the rest of the song? (That we should strive to learn the whole song is separate from the point about how the knowledge/ignorance of part of the words affects our enjoying the song) Extending this idea, consider the following thought experiment: nobody can deny that there are many, many obscure krithis by thyagaraja, dikshitar etc.. Krithis not very commonly performed. Let us assume that in a particular concert, an instrumentalist performs only such krithis: say a rasika cannot identify a single krithi although they identify the raga, thala and the structure of each krithi (i.e., pallavi, anupallavi, charanam). And to reiterate, all these krithis are by the revered composers. Now if this rasika were one of the "anti-ragapravaham" kinds, would they also object to this concert? They would probably be disappointed about not being able to identify a single krithi, but would they say what the musician did was *unacceptable* in the same way that people here are saying ragapravaham is unacceptable? I doubt it.

Actually both are in Varamu (aka Shuddha Hindolam).

Thank you. I stand corrected. The experiment makes even more sense now.

It is actually the mind where sahitya bhavam burgeons whether it is triggered by an instrument or by a vocal rendition. You just need to have worked harder to get to this state with GK

Exactly. The mind. Not the instrument.

Yep.. Its all very confusing!

To repeat, they (or me or anyone else supporting them here, I think!) are not against vocal music. They only think there isn't much of a point in trying to reproduce vocal compositions on an instrument through an entire concert.

Ego, in general is very dangerous and not just for Carnatic music students. Because it blurs your perspective.

Unfortunately "ego" always has negative connotations. To my knowledge it's a neutral word. I said it is good in the right proportions... certainly not in the proportions that lead to egoism/ egotism/ egocentrism....

And how much is "right proportion" is not something we can debate on, I guess- depends on the case/ situation. And just to clarify, by all means, devotion to Guru is where it all begins. No doubt about that.

And there is nothing hypocritical or artificial when you say different things in different settings about someone you know well when it is all equally true.

I see your point, thanks.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Apr 2011, 15:51

Thank you for making the effort to understand contrary opinions and finding common ground, unfortunately a rarity here at rasikas.

"Music" in abstract cannot be bigger than the "Musician" in abstract and nobody has claimed that.

Sindhuja wrote: I'm not sure I understand this statement.

I was just paraphrasing the version I had heard which tries to convey that no particular superstar is bigger than the music itself which is timeless. But timeless Music is made by the timeless Musician, so they are probably on the same footing.

Now if this rasika were one of the "anti-ragapravaham" kinds, would they also object to this concert? They would probably be disappointed about not being able to identify a single krithi, but would they say what the musician did was *unacceptable* in the same way that people here are saying ragapravaham is unacceptable? I doubt it.

As I see it, "ragapravaham" is just a re-branding of the RTP concert style. This was the style formerly in vogue. The kriti concert style displaced it popularity-wise mainly because of easier accessibility to the masses and tight coupling with the Bhakthi movement. So the "anti-ragapravaham" types are those that see the potential in music to touch them at a deeper or different level - spiritually, linguistically etc.

They only think there isn't much of a point in trying to reproduce vocal compositions on an instrument through an entire concert.

That would be upto the rasikas (with a small R, as Kemp would say) to decide.

Unfortunately "ego" always has negative connotations. To my knowledge it's a neutral word. I said it is good in the right proportions... certainly not in the proportions that lead to egoism/ egotism/ egocentrism.... And how much is "right proportion" is not something we can debate on, I guess- depends on the case/ situation. And just to clarify, by all means, devotion to Guru is where it all begins. No doubt about that.

If Ayn Rand were your Guru, you could argue that "egoism/ egotism/ egocentrism" were all good! Of course we know better

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 22 Apr 2011, 21:38

sureshvv wrote:As I see it, "ragapravaham" is just a re-branding of the RTP concert style.

YES!

I don't claim it's "violated" any holy tradition or anything -- and many others (like Bilahari) feel so too. However, we people have every right to feel utterly bored by such concerts, and to say that.

AND this need NOT be countered by somehow raising G-K to some kind of heroes (OR saying rAgapravAhams are some kind of supercompositions). You could simply say you found it thrilling to listen to a concert of this kind.

As to the other point about G-K's remarks at the Idol contest not agreeing with their concerts, that should be an issue only if we can actually quote something specific from their remarks and say it was contradicted in their concert.

Priya Ravi · Post by **Priya Ravi** » 22 Apr 2011, 22:40

We have to understand the fact that behind every composition – be it composition of Thyagaraja, Dikshidar, Purandaradasa, Annamayya, Lalgudi G Jayaraman, GNB, BMK, GK, there would be a reason / purpose. I am sure every performing artiste put in a lot of thoughts and efforts before presenting something new or creative.

We are very comfortable changing from land line phones to latest mobiles, old BW TVs to latest LEDs. Why are we then not open to a new form of music or new thoughts on music?

Every artist perceives his art form in his own way. He makes the presentation accordingly. Music is a performing art. Any performing art has to change according to time. Music itself has evolved over the years. Playing well known established krithis is already done by many instrumentalists. So, why not try and listen to some creative music form?

The effort put in by an artist to create a music form is much greater than the effort put in by a rasika to listen. All the performing artists of good caliber have better knowledge in their art form than an average rasika.

GK with an experience of over 40 years must have put in a lot of effort, thought before composing such compositions. We might like or unlike the composition, it is our personal choice. But, atleast we can make an attempt to understand the reason / need for such a composition

uscasdrs · Post by **uscasdrs** » 22 Apr 2011, 22:51

@Srikant1987: You said it better than I tried to in many posts

It is perfectly ok for some people to be disappointed / bored and feel that some of the pieces didn't sound like Carnatic music. There is no need to raise G-K to some sort of heroes saving Carnatic Music. I was personally disappointed with this concert because I know how good they are and have heard what G-K are capable of doing. 3 ragapravahams seemed like a totally unnecessary experiment that seemed to be aimed more at creating waves than anything else.

As one of the organizers of this event I would like to answer the earlier posts on the concert ending at 11:00 (or thereabouts). It is unfair to look at this as the organizers not wanting the concert to continue because the concert wasn't traditional; the auditorium sound technicians etc. will not work beyond a certain time and it is strictly regulated. Getting the hall back is dependant on giving the halls back at a reasonable hour. The concert was for 2.5 hours, not a very short one. One way to have started a bit earlier is if we had spent less time on mike adjustments for this specific concert in the evening (extensive mike adjustments is something big sabhas in Chennai don't allow for instance). Instrumentalists generally prefer mike adjustment time and we try to honor that to give them the best possible forum. This one took quite a while for adjusting the mikes and the adjustments went on during the concert as well if you may have noticed. There was a specific monitor etc. that needed to be fixed for this concert at the request of the artists. So, it will be good to not put this entire burden of not starting on time on the organizers only

Thank you!

uscasdrs · Post by **uscasdrs** » 22 Apr 2011, 23:13

The effort put in by an artist to create a music form is much greater than the effort put in by a rasika to listen. All the performing artists of good caliber have better knowledge in their art form than an average rasika.

By this argument, there is no need for this forum. After all, all the musicians know more than the rasikas. It will be unfair to comment, discuss. Let us just agree all concerts are great and move on

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 22 Apr 2011, 23:22

Priya Ravi wrote: We are very comfortable changing from land line phones to latest mobiles, old BW TVs to latest LEDs. Why are we then not open to a new form of music or new thoughts on music?

Your comment reminds me of this great line from the movie "Rathakkanneer" in which M.R.Radha playing the role of a nouveau riche turns to him mom and says "neeyum gown pottukko"!

But seriously, to answer your question, may be it is because we think there is more to preserve in Carnatic Music than there is to change.

uscasdrs · Post by **uscasdrs** » 22 Apr 2011, 23:30

@sureshvv:

(remembering MR Radha and the comparison you made is hilarious) and Bingo! It is perfectly okay to believe that there is more to preserve in Carnatic Music than there is to change.

S Kumar · Post by **S Kumar** » 23 Apr 2011, 02:26

I am very dependent on music for my existential thrill and in the process to derive a glimpse of the nature of divinity and creative living. Carnatic music is undoubtedly the highest form of worship for me and worthy of all our efforts to nourish it as a treasure and not merely preserve it. It is a boundless idea and nobody needs to be egoistic about its preservation. I would invite you all to see the shared pool of meaning emerging from this as a continuum to the ongoing discussions. In the process I may sound a little harsh on some aspects of the plight of Carnatic music and its management in India and to my great shock in the US too with the South Indian organizers. It is all for the glory of transcending limitations whatever maybe the nature of it.

It is evident that carnatic music became synonymous with the bhakti movement and has been "preserved" as a system of lyrical compositions as its central theme rather than the musical essence itself. The defining part of the musical system which was ragas/swaras is beyond any doubt clouded over the years by the lyrical beauty of the transformational compositions of great saints. That was a moment of transition like an hour of GOD meant for mass social up-lifting and heightening awareness in emotional culturing no doubt. However when you reflect on the purified existential idea of music as a celestial entity the reality could be quite different. Please reflect that it is possible that in an effort to embrace a musically religious bridge to self realization, the philosophies of these saints and scholars in it became the musical system itself. These kinds of a fundamental idea then lead to an intellectual complexity of the musical system rather than allowing its simplistic and dynamic dimensions to be explored in purely spiritual and creative ways. There was more importance given to the lyrical aspect than the artistic expression and the experience of an artist who actually surrenders to a unique creative life process in his endeavor for sustaining the art in him and in the process justifying his sensitivity to the art-form itself. What happened on account of this is there for everybody to reflect on.

The over reliance on the lyrical based musical compositions when identified as "THE" overarching conclusive idea of the traditional musical form, gets cast in stone for religious and thereby as devotional ideologies. By doing so, there is an imposition of a limitation and a resistance to the natural order of the progression of such a tradition and its deeper intent for holistic development of this mystical science.

Carnatic music became a showpiece on the knowledge of the history of these saints, the meaning of their compositions, the emotions of their poetic lyrics and the theory of music and conformance to a standard as the means to be “The Thyagaraja Disciple” for instance. Conforming and modeling around the practices and philosophies of the great saints became the yardstick of true virtuosity and devotion in Carnatic music. The concerned artist's original inspirations, creative imaginations, innate talent, belief, motivation and courage were only identified and evaluated through the prism of this conformance.

Social acceptance of musical talent over the years became the verdict of the self appointed present generation “scholars” and “critics” who consider themselves relentless torch bearers of the preservation of the musical system. Unfortunately for the most part they happened to be music connoisseurs and not musicians themselves. In the process, the practice of evolving in a holistic experiential way with this all pervading musical system for all concerned participating practitioners were forgotten from within a clouded perception of from a well considered bias of what constitutes artistry and devotion in Carnatic music. Vocalists and their interpretations became the elevated face of the musical system.

What happens then to all the great instrumentalists who have succumbed to this fundamentalism? Did they carry their shadows inside of them and never really saw the real light of social appreciation and acknowledgment for what they truly represented and upheld. What about their artistry?? What about the intrinsic musical experience in them?? What were they capable of communicating with their own inspirations?? What was their language?? What could have been the consequence of their thought and work on the psycho-socio-spiritual development of the participants who come into the fold of this great musical system???

The hideous reality of becoming a musician as a professional journey posed a big challenge for them by being at the mercy of a contained vision of this lyrical system. Tradition is meant for addition so we continue to travel towards the inner dimensions of its metaphors. What are we adding to that which awaits higher and more intense interpretation and original experiences of inspiration? One need not vocally sing krithis alone to realise his higher dimensions and invoke the same in others. Yes it is definitely one of the great paths. Real inspiration is a personal divine experience and art can only mirror it whatever maybe the form of art. Art is art because it lends itself to the celebratory artistic idea of existence and creativity. You can do the same thing is a many ways. Carnatic music can take you to the frontiers of a vastness beyond lyrical interpretations where the experiences are simplistic to bring you to the present moment. Alas, it stayed indoors in the confines of poetry and religiosity and as children we ran away as far as we could for simpler and more exciting associations.

Our musical system is an open technology and its code runs very deep. Unfortunately the "scholars" and "critics" of this century determine how an experience of a concert should be on the basis of lyrical essence qualities alone. This is sadly dogmatic and seemingly stemming from the need to impose their self concept which in many ways has crystallized out of a need for religious safety and really not from spiritual adventure that the great trinities were able to experience and pass on as a realized glimpse into that firmament of possibilities.

As a result, a budding talented artist who has made great progress at the age of 12 or 16 years sees herself/himself competing with a 60 year old veteran with the same set of musical expressions for the same set of audiences that seem to be anyway shrinking in size. What have these so called "scholars" and "critics" added to this divine tradition and how have they promoted an organic progression of creativity to this school in a way that it builds an impetus for young artistic minds to interpret more of their own divine individuality? How have the organizers of this cultural treasure created the necessary conditions for instrumentalists to spread their original expressions to entertain, educate and elevate a wider universe of music lovers as an illimitable wave of suggestions? Where is the artist really in all the "self-indulgence" of these dogmatic skeptics and sticklers of form and etiquette???

Art has to transform society positively and creatively so we can live in the present times here and now and not merely within the impressions of the past. It cannot be an intellectual device to put artistic inspirations into boxes. If preservation is what you are aiming to achieve open up the tradition fearlessly so that there is more offered for its nourishment. Ragapravaham is such a moment of transition and let us do everything it takes to refresh and rediscover such a way of life for the spiritual developement of our children and their grand children too

Ranganayaki · Post by **Ranganayaki** » 23 Apr 2011, 03:45

Kumar, I am able to tell that you tend to fall on the less rigid side of this debate and I really like your ideas, but you are hard to understand. No matter which way you lean, I like your attitude of focusing on the views you want to express and not being confrontational. I have slowed down and made it a point to follow. I think your ideas are important and I would hate anyone to have to give up on the reading for the difficulty following. My suggestion to support this comment: fewer complex adverb/adjective combos and simpler sentences with not too many important ideas per sentence.

Sindhuja · Post by **Sindhuja** » 23 Apr 2011, 04:28

Ranganayaki echoes my thoughts.
Kumar: thanks very much for the insightful writing but it might help to simplify a bit.