eduppu

sung · Post by **sung** » 18 Apr 2011, 03:23

I am now practicing the Tamil song "alai paayude kannaa" on my own (with the help of that amazing, wonderful software 'Gaayaka', taking the swaras from different sources) and thought of asking the following question to the experts here.

The 'anupallavi' - nilai peyaraadu - of the above song has a half-beat 'eduppu'. Are there any specific reasons why the composer decided to have the half-beat eduppu here? Or, was it just a random decision (I am assuming it wouldn't be)?

Are there any *general principles* one can apply to understanding why a given eduppu is not samam, but some other such as the above?

Thank you.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Apr 2011, 04:23

"It is in the song"

That is the answer one knowledgeable person told me long time back when I asked him pretty much the same question. At that time I thought it was a non-answer but it took me years to understand what he meant.

See if that answer makes sense to you, otherwise I can elaborate but it will spoil the beauty of the answer.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Apr 2011, 04:59

sung,
I do not know if there are any rules to be observed. I can tell you though that it's the way the words fall, and sometimes, the impact of the words may turn out to be less (methinks) if the same line starts with samam.
Try singing just the two words alai pAyudE, paying close attention to it. Then try nilai peyaRAdu with samam, and then again with the half-beat eDuppu. Do I make any sense?
My guess is that the eDuppus are not deliberated upon. The composer just recognizes them as such as he/she sings it.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 18 Apr 2011, 07:57

I thought pallavi and anupallavi normally also have the same eDuppu. Keerthi, please explain!

But yes, there are many songs where that doesn't happen.

aparAdhamula mAnpi, for example, has P & A begin at samam and caraNam begin a little afterwards (at 2/5 in the 5 of k'cApu). The words are aparAdha and krpa jUci -- krpa too can intuitively be "shortened" to make it also begin at 2/5, but apparently that's not the way it's been composed.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 18 Apr 2011, 17:31

srikant,

From my observations, empirically, there seems to be similar eduppu for pallavi-anupallavi, at least in theory; for a large number of kRtis.

Having made that cautiously worded comment, there is a great deal of eduppu variation in the South Indian musical tradition - more than we notice.

Smt. T. Brinda had this interesting habit of starting the first Avarta of a song's pallavi one removed (oNNU taLLI) from the conventional eduppu. I suspect this was either her stylistic innovation, or came from her Kanchipuram lessons. Ramnad Krishnan too, has done this several times.

What is unusual is songs with a sama graham for pallavi, and then having a different graham for the anupallavi. Some examples of an atIta graha, like those we recently discussed in the tyAgarAja page, are due to prAsa considerations. [svAti tirunal's treatise calls this carried-over prAsa 'antarukti'].

e.g. vENugAnalOluni has an atIta ali-|-vEnulella in the anupallavi.

The 2 akSaram and 3 akSaram eduppu-s of tyAgarAja's songs seem to been so popular, that we have force-fitted many compositions into the same Procrustean bed. {vide Vidya's manifesto for the ethical treatment of dIkSitar kRti-s}.

The popular rendition of 'mathurapurinilayE' in the gamakakriya song, or of the pallavi of kSitijAramanaM testify this.

Taking the example of aparAdhamula mAnpi, there are sangati-s with kRpa at 1/5 in stead of samam, and often it is the mischief of the manodharmic sangati. How does one pass judgement on that?
Is it a heresy that violates the kRti structure, or is it a clever sangati worth emulation and preserving?

One can only give historical, conciliatory answer. The krti represents a cusp between the kIrtana bhajan style of music and the kanakku-pallavi singing sphere. The former is more flexible regarding eduppu liberties. Latter is draconian about the eduppu. Contextually, we have to decide if or not we want to take the clever sangati or retain the structure.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Apr 2011, 18:08

Keerthi,
What a treasure you are! Wonder how many folks on Rasikas.org know how old you are!

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 18 Apr 2011, 19:43

Arasi: moorthy siridhu keerthi peridhu?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Apr 2011, 21:10

Nice, MV. Good input keerthi.

Arasi, your answer is spot on.. That is probably what 'sung' is looking for. The inherent stress in the melody ('attack point') needs to align with the alternating strong and weak stresses of the thala. That is why if 'nilai peyaraadu' is sung in samam, it would not feel right, it will feel syncopated.

Keerthi: A question on one thing you wrote..

What is unusual is songs with a sama graham for pallavi, and then having a different graham for the anupallavi. Some examples of an atIta graha, like those we recently discussed in the tyAgarAja page, are due to prAsa considerations.

I understand how aTita graha can be useful for prAsa considerations.

'niravadhi sukhada nirmala rūpa' exhibits this feature but in anagata eduppu. Can that be attributed to prAsa considerations as well?

I always have trouble playing the anupallavi line "śaradhi bandhana nata saṅkrandana" since it just skims over the beats without much of a 'pidippu' to the beats of the thala. But then 'śaṅkarādi gīyamāna sādhu mānasa susadana' is such a relief since it is all on the samam and on the beats. Interestingly I do not have that severe a problem ( problem nonetheless ) with anagatha eduppu 'māmava marakata maṇi nibha dēha' and 'bhīma parākrama bhīma karārcita'. The latter one is supposed to be the same laya structure and melody as 'śaradhi bandhana nata saṅkrandana' but I can 'mazhuppify' it much better than 'śaradhi bandhana nata saṅkrandana'. ( I am looking for fellow sympathizers to my problem and for any possible remedies

)

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 18 Apr 2011, 21:11

srikant, the way I've heard aparadhamula is 2/5 of khandacapu in pallavi, anupallavi and caranam.

keerthi, agree with you about diksitar songs. More than the pallavi of kSitijA ramaNam (which has a 1/4 start), the anupallavi of the song has been taught to me like a typical tyagaraja song eduppu. Fortunately the caranam retains the full flow of the song as perhaps intended.

There is a group of Tyagaraja songs with the usual beginnings but where the caranam has a madhyamakala gait, and beginning at samam. So, these songs do not have the pattern of the last lines of the caranam repeating the anupallavi tune. Endukoni manasu and Narada gursuwami come to mind.

All these are of course song versions the way I know them, but more exact and convincing analyses would reveal more information than just impressions like mine.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Apr 2011, 21:35

excellent stuff from keerthi.

The inherent stress in the melody ('attack point') needs to align with the alternating strong and weak stresses of the thala. That is why if 'nilai peyaraadu' is sung in samam, it would not feel right, it will feel syncopated.

(Perhaps to explain further), and I am not sure if this is technically correct (as I am imagining it in my head on the fly): Why the two lines have different eduppu is again due to how they are sung, which in turn is because of where the the first "karvai" occurs as per the melody relative to the start of the line. For alai pAyudE, this 'karvai' (or say significant sync-point) is on "dE", and for nilai peyarAdu - it is 'rA'.

For alai pAyuDe, the initial syllables split as follows (in inner counts): 3 (alai) + 3 (pA) + 2 (yu) and then dE. Thus if we start in samam, the first 8 inner-counts take 2 outer-counts (4+4) and thus dE will be "on tala" at the third outer count. (inner and outer-counts => mAtra/mAttirai and akshara per common convention)

For nilai peyarAdu, the syllables split as 3 (nilai) + 3 (peya) + rA. Thus the "kArvai" at rA comes after 6 as opposed to 8 as in first line. But if we shift the start of the line by 2 inner counts (or 1/2 akshara), you will have rA also at the third outer-count. The same applies to silai pOlavE... - shift it by 2 inner-counts and you get vE to align.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 18 Apr 2011, 22:40

Exactly, Arun. Excellent description. That is what I had in mind as well. That is a very precise answer to 'sung's question.

Speaking in general : Syncing such a major accent on even thala beats ( 2, 4 etc. ) does not seem to work since there is an implicit (strong, weak) alternating stresses feel to many Adi thala songs ( the generic thakadhimi thakajunu feel ). That is basis on which I understand the 1/2 eduppu vs 1 1/2 eduppu differences. Using the template of your example,

(assuming 1 kaLai)

1) if the ( first kArvai - start ) = 2 it is anagatha 1 1/2 or atita 1/2 eduppu
2) if ( first kArvai - start ) = 6 it is Anagatha 1/2 eduppu.
3) if ( first kArvai - start ) = 0 it is samam.

This formula may not fit all songs but seems to work for quite a few songs, so it is useful for me in a practical sense.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 18 Apr 2011, 23:10

Narayanan,
About madhyama kAlam: for some reason (!), my songs which have madhyama kAlam lines start with samam, unless there is an exception somewhere. Why? I don't know. Funny thing is, whenever I see a madhyma kAlam bit coming, it automatically falls into the samam start! I also seem to have an inkling that that's how it should be. Other than that, I am not partial to sama eDuppu that much, it seems. Perhaps the pallavi, but not with anu pallavi and charaNam. A quirk on my part?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 18 Apr 2011, 23:29

I dont know how well it generalizes but it seemed to explain why the difference in this case

- it is not always the "first lengthy syllable". But if I take the few desAdi songs (i.e. 1.5-outer/6inner eduppu) I know, in the versions I sing, I see a significant sync point is at 10 inner-counts from start. Sometimes that is start of a word, sometimes a true long steady note, but I guess not always either.

baNTurIti koluviyavayya: baN (2) Tu (2) + rI (4) + ti (2) = 10 and then ko of kolu (ko isnt held necessarily held steady although lengthened and dangerously close to kOlu..; it does start a word).

teliyalEru rAma: teli(2) ya.. (4) + lE (2) + ru (2) = 10 and then rA (of rAma)

entanErcina: en(2) ta(2) + nE (4) + ci (2) = 10 and then nA

But it isn't necessarily this formulaic either. For example, In girirAja-suta, we do have suta starting at 10 (gi(2) + ri(2) + rA(4) + ja (2)). However, "su" is short (only 2 I think) and ta is longer and starts in-between. But suta is atleast a separate word and thus could be viewed as significant.

Of course there is more to it than simply the first phrase of starting line. But if you look at the anupallavi of the above songs also you will find a sync point at 10. Still this is too small sample set.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Apr 2011, 00:09

As a variation, also consider brOvabhAramA: brO (2) va (2) bhA (4) ra (2) = 10 and then a steady long mA (so similar to entanErcina).

But here bhA is also steady and long, and comes earlier. But it falls in-between tala beat. So why isn't it significant? Perhaps because mA is held even longer (6 counts)

(this all seems revisionist!).

Arun

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 19 Apr 2011, 02:16

Arun - That is a fantastic and fascinating explanation. I've had much difficulty with desadi talam, primarily because I can never get the start right!! I guess this is why elders stress on shaityam, once you get that right, the rest follows

Begs the question, in a krithi, does the tala *always [that is, if needs be]* adjusted to the sahitya? And if so, why is it so important?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2011, 02:17

Arun, there is a possible generalization available for all these 1.5 eduppu desAdi thala songs.. ( there may be exceptions but let that not deter us )

First, I agree that long kArvai is not the only psychoacoustic phenomenon that gives us the perception of a major accent. There may be other things like amplitude, frequency, break ( absence of sound ), landing point ( some swaras before the beat, the beat gets a short swara so melody lands on the beat followed by silence ) all provide the perception of that accent. There may be others.. So, in my formula above, 'first kArvai' is just a place holder for any phenomenon that produces the perception of a major accent.

Specifically, for 1.5 desAdi, in our previous discussions, the relationship to 'usi' thala had been made. 'usi' is used in other contexts like dance and kathakalaksheba.

There are two symmetries carefully balanced but with tension. The Akshara intervals ( 2, 4, 6 8 ) is one group and the akshara intervals ( 1, 3, 5, 7) is the other group. When put together it provides for a non-symmetrical ( odd, even ) akshara pair.
which reduces it to a sequence of 4 such (odd, even ) pattern.

Each symmetry group has something in common. (2,4, 6, 8 ) group skews to the latter part of the akshara where syllables are found and ( 1, 3 ,5 , 7 ) the syllables skews to the first half of the akshara. Special cases are akshara 1 and 5 where the syllable and stress are right on the beat. For the even akshara group, the beat is kArvai'd over but there is a little accent given in the kArvai to indicate a minor stress on all those even beats. This reduces the thala itself to be a a beat pattern of ( major accent, minor accent ). This in turn brings the above formula into picture where the eduppu in dEsAdi is 2 mAthras from the first major accent beat or 10 mAthras from the second major accent beat.

As a corollary, if we are willing to not attribute any special significance to the stress on the 1st or 5th beat, we can be perfectly comfortable if we start dEsAdi thala songs on atita 1/2 eduppu. Or for that matter, the song can start at 3.5, 5.5 as well without any discomfort.

Right?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Apr 2011, 03:29

> As a corollary, if we are willing to not attribute any special significance to the stress on the 1st or 5th beat, we can be
> perfectly comfortable if we start dEsAdi thala songs on atita 1/2 eduppu. Or for that matter, the song can start at 3.5, 5.5
> as well without any discomfort.
Yes. As you know (

), to me, you can even start at samam for those songs - because I do not think the sync against tala beat is that essential. It does people keep tala, and also maintain sync with each other - but given how cm rhythmic accompaniment approches things, given a melody, its laya/rhythm is "defined-therein"

But for the rest above, need some specific examples from you to understand your points.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2011, 03:44

>As you know (

), to me, you can even start at samam for those songs -

I do not think you can do for desadi thala songs. It will feel very syncopated and uncomfortable against the thala. But if you ignore that, yes, then anything will be OK. But I do not want to go there which will derail this thread.

Also, it then defeats the concept of eduppu itself which is the premise of this thread and your earlier excellent analysis. We can restrict this to 'usi' derived desadi and madhyadi songs.

You pulled out my last statement which is a culmination of the rest of my points. Not that I am saying those prior part is correct but without a consideration of those statements, the corollary would not make sense.

With respect to the examples, any of the desadi thala songs will do. So let us take teliyalEru rAma from your earlier analysis.

teliyalEru rAma: teli(2) ya.. (4) + lE (2) + ru (2) = 10 and then rA (of rAma)

'teli' occupies the latter half of the second interval
'ya' occupies the first half of the third interval

That is the asymmetrical pair. Other three are similar such pairs. And if you arrange them all next to each other, you get that alternating on the beat, off the beat pattern ( 4 such pairs ).

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Apr 2011, 05:50

Yes - that would be rat-hole. In fact I wanted to note so in my earlier post.

'teli' occupies the latter half of the second interval
'ya' occupies the first half of the third interval

(corrected) I see but you don't see that in lEru ? That is 2 and 2?

In general we know that w.r.t reference of tala - it starts .5 (outer count i.e. .5 after count 2) shifted but is usually such it will align 2.5 counts after that such that the alignment falls on the 5th beat. This mean it has to shift in alignment - so yes it wil altenate in alignment w.r.t tala beat.

With .5 eduppu songs though we don't see the same characteristic of align at 5th beat (e.g. the way nilaipeyarAdu silai pOlavE ninRa spreads across the tala is I think a common example within the .5 realm - the 5th beat here used exactly like the 1st one

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2011, 06:53

>you don't see that in lEru ? That is 2 and 2?

There may be two different ways of singing it then. For it to fit in to the model
ru needs to fall on the latter part of the 4th interval. That means 'lE' gets 4 and
extends over the 4th beat and onto the mid part of the 4th interval where 'ru' takes
over. So lEru in that way of singing would be 4 + 2. That applies back pressure on 'ya'
which then gets only '2'. So

teliyalEru rAma: teli(2) ya.. (4) + lE (2) + ru (2) = 10 and then rA (of rAma)

has to rewritten as

teliyalEru rAma: teli(2) ya(2) + lE..(4) + ru (2) = 10 and then rA (of rAma)

That will fit in the general model of the desAdi format.

To maintain the purvanga/uttaranga symmetry, the uttaranga will then be

bha(2) kti(2) ma..(4) rga(2) and then mu(2) na.(4)

If you combine them all starting from the beginning of the song 'teli',

it will come out to be a grouping of

2 + 2 + 4
2 + 2 + 4
2 + 2 + 4
2 + 2 + 4
=32

which is the desAdi usi. The middle '2' in each grouping gets the heavy accent ( and to me it feels like the mid point of the '4', though a kArvai, gets a milder accent but that may be an illusion )

Which way is it sung? I am trying to recollect and I am hearing it both ways in my head

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 19 Apr 2011, 07:48

narayan wrote:There is a group of Tyagaraja songs with the usual beginnings but where the caranam has a madhyamakala gait, and beginning at samam. So, these songs do not have the pattern of the last lines of the caranam repeating the anupallavi tune. Endukoni manasu and Narada-guru-swami come to mind.

Agreed.. Only, these aren't really madhyamakAlam; they are just more sAhityAkSara-s per Avarta. Your observation is also true for the bhairavi edifice 'rakSa bettarE' - the latter half of the caranam doesn't resemble anupallavi. Could we try and make a more comprehensive list of such krtis of tyAgayya?

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Keerthi: A question on one thing you wrote..

I understand how aTita graha can be useful for prAsa considerations.

'niravadhi sukhada nirmala rūpa' exhibits this feature but in anagata eduppu. Can that be attributed to prAsa considerations as well?

I always have trouble playing the anupallavi line "śaradhi bandhana nata saṅkrandana" since it just skims over the beats without much of a 'pidippu' to the beats of the thala. But then 'śaṅkarādi gīyamāna sādhu mānasa susadana' is such a relief since it is all on the samam and on the beats. Interestingly I do not have that severe a problem ( problem nonetheless ) with anagatha eduppu 'māmava marakata maṇi nibha dēha' and 'bhīma parākrama bhīma karārcita'. The latter one is supposed to be the same laya structure and melody as 'śaradhi bandhana nata saṅkrandana' but I can 'mazhuppify' it much better than 'śaradhi bandhana nata saṅkrandana'.

Not too sure I understand.. sharadhi-bandhana can be sung in the popular style, as (taka)sharadhi-bandhana, or in a more prim sama-eduppu..|saradhi-bandhana |
I have heard that as well, if I remember correctly, Prof. SRJ sang it on TV once, and it was an excellent pAThAntaram, I suspect it could be the tiruppAmpuram vintage. Which version is yours?

Incidentally, in the passages 'śaṅkarādi gīyamāna sādhu mānasa susadana' and its counterpart 'tAmasa-rAjasa... vinuta-caraNa' are in a different gait,[tadheemta-tadheemta-tadheemta-tadheemta] and theoretically should pose a problem, in fitting the lyric into the Avarta.

A similar 'laykArI' can be seen in the latter half of the ap and caranam in sAmaja-vara-gamana.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Apr 2011, 07:59

In the version I learnt there are variations across sangatis. I dont have my notebook with me now, and I am having a real hard time counting in my head

but e.g.- bhakthimArga is sometimes 2+2+4+2, sometimes 2+3+3+2; and munu - as 3+3 and sometimes as 4+2. I could be wrong here - I need my note!

I dont think one pattern is "more standard" than other - what is more common is 10 and then a significant sync-point. That 10 can be divvied in different ways in different sangatis for effect.

Arun

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 19 Apr 2011, 08:09

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I've had people tell me that many of the dEshAdi kRti-s were sung as atIta eduppu krti-s, beginning on the last two akSara-s of the previous druta.this was also true for many jAvaLi-s.

For whatever reason, this fell out of practise, and the dEshAdi reckoning/regular Adi tala reckoning with a takita eduppu is more popular.

All the examples mentioned by arun - brOva bhAramA, banturIti koluvu, teliyalEru and enta nErcina fit perfectly into a -0.5 eduppu, instead of the +1.5 eduppu.

Looking at the 2+2+4 matrix for the dEshAdi that vk suggests, It occurs to me that there is a certain kind of sangati that is fast vanishing, that was prevalent to a degree in the singing of volETi and sometimes TKR and TRS, where they would make tiny 'internal rearrangements', and it would sound charming. for instances in mu-nu , where the structure is given as mu(2)-nu(4), there are sangati-s with 3-3 structure.

It seems like these sangati-s, which often are more evident in vocal rather than instrumental performances, are fast diasappearing, and are being replaced by instrumental sangatis, sung by/on larynxes.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2011, 08:21

>'śaṅkarādi gīyamāna sādhu mānasa susadana' and its counterpart 'tAmasa-rAjasa... vinuta-caraNa'
>are in a different gait,[tadheemta-tadheemta-tadheemta-tadheemta] and
>theoretically should pose a problem, in fitting the lyric into the Avarta.

Well, for me, those two places are happy places

, once I survive the previous line that is not on samam. May be there are difficulties in the lyric but with swaras, but when I play it on the flute, I am on auto-pilot without any tala problems.

>Which version is yours?

The popular one with 1/2 eduppu. Lineage wise, my guru was a shishya of mAli and i have heard mali's version. It is not exactly the same but close. My problem is on the anupallavi first line. Not just the graha but that entire line does not mesh with the beat well. It may be something as trivial as the usual smearing over a beat with kArvai without an accent. I heard Sri. Kalyanaraman's version and his is like that too, it is a bit difficult to keep thala.

>sharadhi-bandhana can be sung in the popular style, as (taka)sharadhi-bandhana, or in a more
>prim sama-eduppu..|saradhi-bandhana |
>I have heard that as well, if I remember correctly, Prof. SRJ sang it on TV once, and it was an
> excellent pAThAntaram, I suspect it could be the tiruppAmpuram vintage.

Oh, I did not know that. That will take away some stress. I have a gut feel for how I can move it to samam and niravify the rest to suit it but it may not be same as what Prof. SRJ did.

How about Charanam. Was that on samam too?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2011, 08:27

>All the examples mentioned by arun - brOva bhAramA, banturIti koluvu, teliyalEru and enta nErcina fit
>perfectly into a -0.5 eduppu, instead of the +1.5 eduppu.

Exactly. That was my point in the last paragraph of post #16. -0.5, 1.5, 3.5 and 5.5 will fit ( but not 0.5, 2.5, 4.5 and 6.5 )

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2011, 08:33

Regarding the 2+2+4 matrix, that is the base and reference. Sangathis like what Arun and Keerthi point out should be accommodated once the base sangathi in that 2+2+4 format is established a couple of times. Variations of that nature are very interesting. If they are disappearing that is indeed sad.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Apr 2011, 08:47

Why is 2+2+4 anymore preferable? Unless proven - it is IMO that is needless prescription.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2011, 09:43

Arun, the 2+2+4 info itself came from A.J. Sriram when we discussed usi a while back. I will have to look for that thread.

The idea he outlined is both madhyAdhi and desAdi are variations on the base usi grouping which is 2+2+4

Desadi is just that 2+2+4
Madhyadhi is a left shift of that, namely: 2+4+2 . So a madhyadi song will have a pattern 2+4+2+2+4+2+2+4+2+2+4+2 . This is also symmetric with respect to purvanga and uttaranga. To me, it looks like the '2' that follows the purvanga 2+4+2+2+4 pattern often gets kArvai'd so the previous syllable lands on the 5th beat thereby consuming this '2'. And then the '2' that follows it provides the take of point for the uttaranga.

I do not know how universally this model fits. But the notion is Thyagaraja's songs that are labeled desadi and madhyadi are derived from this basic usi grouping of 2+2+4.

The syllable distribution I wrote before holds for a lot of desadi songs but I do not know if that distribution pattern also can trace its lineage to the Usi used in kathakalashebam ( usi grouping/form seems to dominate there ). And the alternating strong accent/weak accent model is just my own based on how it feels to me and how those 4 specific eduppus fit the desAdi songs, as described earlier as a corollary.

The strong accent/weak accent model works for me on madhyadi songs also. ( And there is a corollary of 4 applicable eduppus for madhyadi songs also but I would not go there

)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Apr 2011, 21:56

Interesting. Can you post some examples of madhyAdi songs - haven't focused on them that much.

I know that the 2+2+4+2 combo is very common, and may have had origins in bhajanasampradhya type singing, but I also thought it isn't that those that don't follow are "exceptions". So to get a more comprehensive idea, I looked up the songs marked as deSAdhi in TSP mama's book on Thyagaraja krithis.

So here is a less--than-complete but reasonably large sample set. While we do see a good sprinkling of the 2+2+4+2 (particularly in popular ones), there seems enough standard deviation in how the initial 10 inner counts are divided (and perhaps that lead to madhyAdi classification?). There are some interesting ones there.

Disclaimer: For some I did confirm with audio samples, but for some else it is based on my memory and counting in head - both of which can be unreliable

. So the splits as I mention here could be wrong

Disclaimer: Any spelling and transliteration mistakes are unintentional

Code: Select all

Song                 rAga              Split      SyncAt  Comments
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
girirAjasuta         bangALa           2+2+4+2    suta
dASaratI nI          tODi              4+4+2      nI      (guess)
viitulaku mrOkkEda   mayAmALavagowla   2+2+2+4    mRo..
grahabhalamEmi       rEvagupti         2+2+2+4    mE...
mariyAda gAdayya     bhairavam         2+2+4+2    gA....
entanErcina          suddhadhanyAsi    2+2+4+2    na..
marugElarA           jayantaSrI        2+2+4+2    rA...
calamElarA           mArgahindOLam     2+2+4+2    rA...
eTiyOcanalu          kIraNAvaLi        2+2+4+2    nalu..  (no emphasis on na on 5th beat)
rAmAnIyaDa           kharaharapriya    2+2+4+2    Da... 
cErarAvadEmirA       rItigowLa         2+2+4+2    dE...   this makes it sound like cera 
                                                          and not cEra. LAter sangatis
                                                          go cEra and that split differently
                                                          - maybe as cE(4)+ra(1)+rA(4)+va(1)
                                                          or 3+2+3+2
evarani              dEvAmRtavarshini  2+2+2+4    nIr..
OrajUpu jUcEdi       kannaDagowLa      4+1+4+1    cu...   Many sing 1st sangati in a 2+2+4+2,
                                                          although that sounds like orajUpu
                                                          and not Ora). Nedunurigaru does
                                                          not do that (in the renditions I
                                                          have heard)
sukhi evvarO         kAnaDa            2+2+4+2    rO..
kannataNDri nApai    dEvamanOhari      2+2+4+2    nApai
rAmakatA sudhArasa   madhaymAvati      4+4+2      tA..
sarasIruhAnana       mukhAri           2+2+4+2    hA.
padavi nE satbhakti  sAlabhairavi      1+1+1+3+4  bha..   pa(1) + da(1) + vi(1) + n(3) +
                                                          sat(4) - i think not sure
manavyAlakincarAtaTE naLinakAnti       2+2+4+2    kin..
enduku nirdhaya      harikAmbhOji      8+2+       ku...
sItApati             khamAs            4+4+2      ti..
sarasa sAmadhAna     kApinArAyaNi      1+1+2+4+2  dhAna   sa(1) + ra(1) + sa(2) + sA(4) + ma(2)
mA jAnaki            kAmbhOji          4+4+2      ki..
vara rAga layagnulu  cencukAmbhOji     2+2+4+2    laya
SrIpatE nI pada      nAgaswarAvali     4+2+4      nI
mAkElarA             ravicandrikA      4+4+2      rA...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2011, 22:30

Awesome Arun. Great work. I will read your work with care and get back here if needed.

As a general note, in matters of art like this, reverse engineered models like this will not be perfect. As you state, the outliers may not be just exceptions. The interesting thing to me is, there are indeed these kinds of models that can be found which act as buckets to accommodate a big set even if the ones not in the bucket are numerous. They are just waiting to be bucketized

But the presence of these out-of-bucket ones should not diminish the value of the bucket in any way. In fact, by many measures, the usefulness of the model like this in its discriminating capacity rather than in its capacity to include. The most inclusive model is no model at all which is by definition useless. And at the other extreme, the most discriminating model will have zero items in it which is also useless

At least in my mind, I view these as a compact descriptive models ( and definitely not prescriptive ). And that too in a single axis/dimension.

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 19 Apr 2011, 22:37

Very interesting discussion. But ... is the original questioner 'sung' satisfied with what has been posted. Please do get back to us!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2011, 22:50

I was thinking about that too. I know we have gone much beyond that in related directions. That is something that happens frequently in laya related discussions. They are quite fruitful.

I think Post #10 from Arun is the most direct and clear answer to what 'sung' asked about. Sung, yes do pitch in regarding if your question got answered or not.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Apr 2011, 23:06

vasanthakokilam wrote:But the presence of these out-of-bucket ones should not diminish the value of the bucket in any way=

True that the 2+2+4+2 is bucket stands regardless - atleast for first sangati. Whether that is "standard" and others are "out-of-bucket" is a different issue. I don't think elevating them as normal does any good - we can still recognize it as a major sub-category.

How about this:

Perhaps dEsAdi's have a "more common" framework which covers even those outside the 2+2+4+2: "sync points" at beat#5, 7 and 9, the three hard slaps of tala..

Note: Here samam is beat #1 (i would like to use beat #0, but then I am into C/C++ )

The melody is such that it has good alignment with tala at these beats; good alignment in the form of a word start, a kArvai like lengthy note/syllable etc. Also, here 9 is start of next avarthana and so really beat #1

This is also the reason why shifts by 2 work but shfit by 2 doesnt work

Let us say that at standard samam+1.5 eduppu (i.e. 0.5 after beat #2), you have "good alignment" on say all three of these i.e. beat 5, 7 and 9.

A shift back by 2 outer counts (to atita eduppu i.e. 0.5 before samam) will have alignment on two of these (5 and 7). One of them moves to beat #3 - a laghu count yet still 'on beat". So it would still make sense - perhaps more so because of good alignment on the hard beats 5 and 7.

If you shift it forward by 2 so that you are samam+4.5 (i.e 0.5 before the first dhrutam), you will still have alignment on 7 and 9. Also, if the melody has 2+4+2+2, then the second syllable (the long 4), would now align on beat 5 and so will become a significant alignment point and so you will have again real good alignment. But if melody goes away from 2+4+2+2 then you may not get that extra sync.

If you shift it forward by 4 to samam+6.5 (i.e. 0.5 before second dhrutam), you will retain only one of the original hard emphasis, but will gain alignment on beat 7 with the second long syllable, if the initial part goes 2+4+2+2. Thus you will have alignment on the 2 out of 3. Probably not as strong as others but still perhaps good enough

Now if you shift it forward or backward by a odd count, your original alignments get shifted by odd numbered, and since the hard-beats are evenly spaced (5,7,9) - you will be misaligned. Thus we will feel not good alignment and feel that the melody is syncopated against the tala beat and many of us may struggle to keep tala

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Apr 2011, 23:15

We should probably instead say:

Perhaps dEsAdi's have a "more common" framework which covers even those outside the 2+2+4+2: "sync points" at 2.5, 4.5 and 6.5 outer counts from the start of the melody line.

i.e. no reference to how they are laid out against tala. That comes later:

Thus if you start 2.5 - these become 5, 7 and 9 and thus align against tala.

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2011, 23:22

Arun, Agreed. Same as what I was thinking and wrote. You provide a good thesis on why it feels comfortable and uncomfortable in those circumstances.

My own thinking on that comfort/discomfort factor is only a small variation from yours. In my mind, I consider beat 3 as an emphasis point also. I know that is in the middle of a laghu and I set that aside as an artifact of the anga structure. Adi itself for Madhyadi and dEsadhi considerations feels like having four pairs with one beat of each pair getting a stronger emphasis. That is what leads to the pattern of every other beat getting a strong accent. As long as this is uniformly maintained, people feel comfortable. You disturb that, it feels very syncopated. Anyway, it is not that far from your thesis.

BTW, on your list, the ones marked as 4+4+2.. I know why you classified it that way. From a syllable distribution point of view, that is correct. But they can also be considered 2+2+4+2 since right in the middle of the first 4 there is a minor/soft accent ( laya wise ). People do not sing that 4 as a non-accented 4 mathrai kArvai. That soft accent is usually in the form a perceptive break or a gamaka shake etc. which will fall right on that 3rd beat ( though singing it in a non-accented manner would be an interesting sangathi and will definitely trip up a naive thalam keepers like me.. I will be dragging the beat along that 4 mathrai

)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Apr 2011, 23:33

>the ones marked as 4+4+2.. I know why you classified it that way. From a syllable distribution point of view, that is correct.
> But they can also be considered 2+2+4+2
True but IIRC, the emphasis on say rAmakata is (or can be) on both halves of both 4s - sort of (2+2) + (2+2) 2. For sItA patE - I can see it both ways. You could do sI . (pa pa) or just a long sI.. (pa ; ). Since it is pa it can go either way. It all depends on the raga and swara.

I am not that sold on beat 3. Besides it will become an unnecessary larger-than-life factor on odd-shifts

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 19 Apr 2011, 23:41

Arun, I edited my post #35 to clarify what I meant by the break in that 4 but I see you are also saying the same thing.

For rAmakata, (2+2) + (2+2) + 2 is fine but plain karavi 4 + ( 2 + 2 ) + 2 will be a bigger departure from the model. That is because the 4 straight mathrais will consume the 3rd beat without emphasis. If that is the first sangathi that will feel very odd since a reference layam has not been established yet. ( external thala keeping notwithstanding ). So I will take (2+2) + (2+2) + 2

What about the rest of the 4+4+2 s in your list. Can they be represented as 2+2+4+2 or 2+2+2+2+2 ?

>Besides it will become an unnecessary larger-than-life factor on odd-shifts

What do you mean?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 19 Apr 2011, 23:48

4 + ( 2 + 2 ) + 2 is a bigger departure from the model. That is because the 4 straight mathrais will consume the 3rd beat without emphasis. If that is the first sangathi that will feel very odd since a reference layam has not been established yet. ( external thala keeping notwithstanding )

I am not sure what you are talking about but to me it does not seem odd at all, and so perhaps it all refers to conditioning. I can see sItapati fine as 4+4+2... or 4+(2+2)+2 - first sangati or not.

Disregard that other comment. But I am not seeing 3rd beat as significant as the others.

PS: I think all dEsAdi related posts should be moved out to a separate thread - probably from #13 onwards. It is getting too heavy!

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Apr 2011, 00:02

>But I am not seeing 3rd beat as significant as the others.

If you are saying that because it is Adi, you will have to recall the notion that Adi structure/kriya seems to be a later development for these songs. But if you are saying the above with respect to the built-in emphasis in the song, then yes we do feel it differently ( but not sure if it is due to conditioning since we are all conditioned the same way in the CM context

).

BTW, in the context of eduppu of 2 mathrais before the 3rd beat, If you start the song with an undifferentiated straight 4 mathrai, how is the eduppu of 2 mathrais communicated? That is what I am referring to above.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Apr 2011, 02:28

I was referring only to the in-built laya of the melody - so to rephrase I mean that 0.5 from start doesn't seem significant to me as 2.5, 4.5 and 6.5.

I think I understand your point - you think that .5 must be delineated (not necessarily emphasized like the other cases), or perhaps "not kArvaied over" else the .5 vs 1.0 length isn't established and thus laya reference isn't. There are some counter-arguments to that:
- Mrdangists if you observe don't start immediately on the first swara of first sangati itself. They usually observe 1/2 or even first line - and that gives a better idea of the flow. Just the first 4 or 6 matrais is also an awfully short time to form any base.
- So in cases where you don't have 2+4+2, that whole pattern or even the whole line should give all that is needed to sense the tempo, laya etc.
- take some varnams like the sAranga and sriraga varnam. Both start with a flat long note (sa in one case and pa in another) of 1.5 counts long in 2-kalai Adi (. One doesn't need and I would say shouldn't need to do "sa a a mi" in both case to show/establish that the note is actually 3 counts long - particularly because it is the first noteof the song and thus a laya reference is established. Now most of us do need to count that 3 by hand (I.e. as part of keeping tala) to get it right - but that is different - that is time keeping domain - a person with good sense of timing or say trained in a non-carnatic field and has to start a piece with such a note would be able to execute with right tempo without explicit counting etc. or show that count in the execution of the note itself.

So in short - starting with a long note even one that doesnt align with tala isn't an odd beast at all to me.

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Apr 2011, 02:48

Doh!! Scratch that about sankarabharanam. It is 2 taps long - I meant saranga and it should be 1.5. Counts long

Also, among krithis, I am sure there are other examples but one I can think off is santAna rAmasvAminam (hindola vasantam) which starts off with a long sa (1.5 aksharas long). Of course one can do san n n tA ... (i.e. s s s p .. as opposed to s , , p ) - but it isnt mandatory

Arun

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Apr 2011, 08:39

Mrdangists if you observe don't start immediately on the first swara of first sangati itself. They usually observe 1/2 or even first line - and that gives a better idea of the flow. Just the first 4 or 6 matrais is also an awfully short time to form any base.
- So in cases where you don't have 2+4+2, that whole pattern or even the whole line should give all that is needed to sense the tempo, laya etc.

Agreed. I guess you probably need a few well defined stress points to indicate beat duration. Rest can be munge'd

( Modifed Until Not Guessed Easily )

What is the situation with those 4+4+2 deSadi songs in your list. Is the first four split into 2+2 or it is kArvai'd over the 3rd beat?

To your example on the varnam, I would not feel anything odd if that kArvai starts on a samam. Another simpler but equivalent example I thought of in one kaLai is the beginning of 'rA ra vENu gOpAla'. It is S...R for the first beat which is perfectly fine.
So, as long as the kArvais are within a beat, no issues at all if it does not mark off the sub-beats.

When it crosses the beat boundary, I do not sense anything odd if the kArvai segment ends on the first mathrai of the following beat. That happens a lot. But the one case where I feel syncopation is where it starts in the middle of the previous beat interval and ends in the middle of the next beat interval with smoothness when it crosses the beat boundary. If such a thing is there in one or two beats, I can still keep up with the laya plan but if it is there for a few beats, that is when I lose track of my thalam.. I am not sure if it is common in krithis or varnams but it probably occurs in kalpanaswarams of some laya masters.

As we saw in the music and brain thread, those unexpected and surprise variations are the ones that interests our brain. I guess after such intentional laya vishamams, the song can move into madyamakala swara passages to good effect.

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 20 Apr 2011, 21:38

arasi wrote:About madhyama kAlam: for some reason (!), my songs which have madhyama kAlam lines start with samam

Interesting observation, and I think quite true by and large. However, in the example keerthi gave, raksabeTTare, at least the DKP/J versions have a small kick in the caranam lines pushing it back by 1/4 a beat, although I'm sure it can be sung (where are you, sung?!) at samam.

keerthi, I enjoy making lists, so I will certainly put down what I know of Tyagaraja songs of the type you mentioned.

arunk and others, there is a lot which you have discussed which I have to put in my pipe and smoke.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Apr 2011, 21:54

vasanthakokilam wrote:What is the situation with those 4+4+2 deSadi songs in your list. Is the first four split into 2+2 or it is kArvai'd over the 3rd beat?

I think some one way and some other way. rAmakata isnt flat (http://sangeethamshare.org/sunil/thyaga ... dunuri.mp3 - nedunuri's version on sangeethapriya) - I think it is sn`p`,

e.g. for mAkElara, the mA is flat I think (http://sangeethamshare.org/sunil/thyaga ... i--SSI.mp3 - i.e. SSI's version on sangeethapriya)

. sItApati, the Si can be both ways I think but I remember hearing it as flat - (http://sangeethamshare.org/sunil/thyaga ... aswami.mp3 - Mani Krishnaswamy's version on sangeethapriya. Check the first 2 iterations - mostly flat, especially the second.

Check that in both SSI and Nedunuri's version mrdangist waits for a while. In Mani Krishnaswamy it is immediate but it is possible itsnt starting from the beginning (since you hear the mridangam playing some pattern before she begins).

vasanthakokilam wrote:When it crosses the beat boundary, I do not sense anything odd if the kArvai segment ends on the first mathrai of the following beat. That happens a lot. But the one case where I feel syncopation is where it starts in the middle of the previous beat interval and ends in the middle of the next beat interval with smoothness when it crosses the beat boundary. If such a thing is there in one or two beats, I can still keep up with the laya plan but if it is there for a few beats, that is when I lose track of my thalam..

This is what I was referring to "different conditioning"

- not that I am that differently conditioned - but it is possible that we sometimes draw too much into things based on our individual exposure, which does vary and can become a factor.

Anyway, if you want to consider 2-kalai - think of how cakkani-raja starts - a long steady ri - starting not at samam but at samam+1.5 tap - and thus pretty much like dEsAdi start. cakkani => 4+2+4 inner counts (4 counts per tap)

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Apr 2011, 21:58

narayan wrote: arunk and others, there is a lot which you have discussed which I have to put in my pipe and smoke.

- I wont be surprised if many look at my posts and ask "what the heck is he smoking?"

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 20 Apr 2011, 23:29

Not really

, but you both were getting deeper and deeper into stuff which was all beyond me (an old song goes like this, I think: smoke gets into my eves)? Well, all I know is that I don't belong there, your intellectual analysis (dialogue) getting more and more obscure for me. Still, I can't deny that it's all impressive

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Apr 2011, 23:59

it is curse

- to not rest easy unless we have reasonable grasp of "why things are the way they are". Vk and I are simply trying to see what is in the melody of these songs that results in a good-fit samam+1.5 eduppu, and why doing them as samam or samam+0.5 do not fit well. So this is is still very much related to the original question. Of course when two people see things differently, it takes quite a bit of chatter to reach the medium.

Arun

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 21 Apr 2011, 01:30

Arun,
Just was saying, you both were getting carried away, that's all (catch me in one (or many) of my such moments

On a serious note, we do need all the ardor that you show in your search to bring us the fruits of your labor.

sung · Post by **sung** » 21 Apr 2011, 15:58

vasanthakokilam wrote:I was thinking about that too. I know we have gone much beyond that in related directions. That is something that happens frequently in laya related discussions. They are quite fruitful.
I think Post #10 from Arun is the most direct and clear answer to what 'sung' asked about. Sung, yes do pitch in regarding if your question got answered or not.

I am very sorry. It has been so hectic the past few days for me that I couldn't even actually practice music in the mornings like I always do (except a little bit here and there). I did read the initial replies. And, I wanted to analyze the ideas put forth by you all amazing experts and check while singing, but didn't really get a chance. The semester is nearing the end and as a chemistry professor I am kind of swamped with work. Sorry. I was actually feeling guilty that I haven't got back with my reply yet, and I saw this post and the previous one, so immediately wanted to update my situation.

You are all simply phenomenal and I am really happy that I found this forum recently. The discussion has been very interesting, and I haven't had the chance to read the later posts yet or analyze and clearly understand a number of the previous posts.

In the meantime, if it is not too much, can someone please explain the term 'karvai'? (sounds kind of familiar to me, but not really sure; and I am definitely not clear about its exact meaning; tried to google it, but didn't get anywhere)

Thank you.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 21 Apr 2011, 22:57

kArvai - Elongated Swara or silence.