National anthem

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 29 Jun 2011, 19:39

Just now got the happy news from a facebook friend
Congrats!!!!!!!!! our national anthem "Jana Gana Mana........" is declared as "THE BEST ANTHEM OF THE WORLD" by UNESCO...... Kindly everyone re-post this as your status atleast for an hour. Let's show the world we rock ! .feel great!!

squims · Post by **squims** » 30 Jun 2011, 00:35

Gobilalitha sir, I'm sorry to say that this seems to be a hoax!
http://www.hoax-slayer.com/best-nationa ... esco.shtml

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 30 Jun 2011, 03:23

I saw similar post a year ago in one of the Facebook posts. It is a hoax. One should go to UNESCO website and verify authenticity instead of depending on viral hoax

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 30 Jun 2011, 06:26

I am sorry that this is a hoax.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Jun 2011, 13:08

It has to be a hoax.

In any race there is only one winner, and the rest are losers. An international organisation such as this would never, I hope, declare the other countries' anthems to be losers!

Be proud of your anthem.

(as far as mine is concerned, I'm surprised that the "gracious queen" that it names doesn't cry out, "Please! Stop that dreadful dirge !" Well... perhaps she likes it

)

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 30 Jun 2011, 18:06

Nick,
Well, She's 'brought up' to put up with countless nonsensical things which are not her cup of tea at all, even that song in praise of her and of several of her ancestors. She's a veteran at being graceful when things are in shambles...

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 30 Jun 2011, 19:59

This so-called national anthem of India is not a national anthem at all. It was written in praise of King George V and does not praise the country neither does it fully celebrate the cultural richness of this country. Ganga and Yamuna find a place but not the Cauvery. South India is dismissed off in one word 'drAviDa', whereas Gujarat, Maharashtra, Bengal and smaller states like Punjab are mentioned.

There were better songs, 'Jayati Jayati Bharata Mata' for example, which were rejected in favour of this janagana mana which is not a good example of an anthem. It is time to change the national anthem.

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 30 Jun 2011, 22:05

RaviSri wrote:smaller states like Punjab are mentioned

And not to mention non-existent "states" like Sindh! Much as I would have loved Sindh, the cradle of the Indo-Aryan/Dravidian civilization, to have been part of India and the Indian anthem, I don't think jana gana mana was meant to be an exhaustive list of all the states or even the most populous states or even regions. That said, I agree that there are more meaningful songs that could have been our national anthem. Can we change it by popular vote ?

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 30 Jun 2011, 22:24

Well, the composer of "Sare Jahan se accha", Mohammad Iqbal is from Pakistan. He went on to disavow his own song. His birthday is a national holiday in Pakistan!

And the national anthem of Bangladesh, Amar Sonar Bangla was written by Tagore.

As someone I know from Ottawa said, isn't it Ironic...don't you think?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Jul 2011, 01:03

uday_shankar wrote:I agree that there are more meaningful songs that could have been our national anthem. Can we change it by popular vote ?

I was under the impression that the lovely vandE mAtaram was in very close contention

smala · Post by **smala** » 01 Jul 2011, 01:24

vandE mAtaram was and is loved by many, esp south Indians who rallied along with Subramania Bharathi - even my home-maker paatti, now long gone, loved it. There were perceived objections, on its "non-secular" nature...

smala · Post by **smala** » 01 Jul 2011, 01:34

vandE mAtaram..."...by Bankimchandra Chattopadhyay. It is written in a mixture of Bengali and Sanskrit... It is a hymn to the goddess Durga, identified as the national personification of India. It came to be considered the "National Song of India",.. and it played a part in the Indian independence movement, first sung in a political context by Rabindranath Tagore at the 1896 session of the Indian National Congress. In 1950, its first two verses were given the official status of "national song" of the Republic of India,.. distinct from the national anthem of India Jana Gana Mana. Many Muslim organizations in India have declared fatwas against singing Vande Mataram, due to the song giving a notion of worshipping Mother India, which they consider to be shirk (idolatry)...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vande_Mataram

sruthi · Post by **sruthi** » 01 Jul 2011, 01:48

This wiki page has audio clips of the national anthems of most nations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_anthems

These anthems sound especially nice: Israel, Japan, Nepal.
The Sri Lankan anthem has the hint of a raga.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Jul 2011, 07:56

Bharathi did not stop with vAzhiya Sentamizh and vAzhga naTRamizhar--he went on to sing vAzhiya bhArata maNit tiru nADu and added vande mAtaram to it at the end! That's not all. He had to translate Bankimchandra's song too: iniya nIr perukkinai...
jana gana mana gave us goose bumps when we sang it as children because of the national fervor that flooded the country at that time and because of Tagore's fame as a poet. Let alone the words--in today's context, the tune is 'so so' too.

keerthi · Post by **keerthi** » 01 Jul 2011, 15:58

Let alone the words--in today's context, the tune is 'so so' too.

arasi is being her usual gracious self.

I am bitter, only because the music of our anthem seems like a deliberate slap in the face of India's musical legacy.

The tune is a musically barren, unimaginative colourless one, and clearly has been composed keeping in mind the 'band' orchestration patterns. It is a ludicrous, yet ingenious act that the tunesmith has managed to compose an anthem for a country with several systems of classical music, several streams of popular devotional and secular music, and an abundance of 'folk' and 'tribal' music, an anthem which has neatly excluded every single element of all these different systems.

srilanka's anthem, as pointed out, has appreciably more musical content

I do not ask for a gamaka-varika musical masterpiece, but something of the Indian musical traditions could have been incorporated - a germ of a sphuritam, a kernel of a meend...

sruthi · Post by **sruthi** » 01 Jul 2011, 18:30

keerthi wrote:It is a ludicrous, yet ingenious act that the tunesmith has managed to compose an anthem for a country with several systems of classical music, several streams of popular devotional and secular music, and an abundance of 'folk' and 'tribal' music, an anthem which has neatly excluded every single element of all these different systems.

"Tagore wrote down the English translation of the song and along with Margaret Cousins (an expert in European music and wife of Irish poet James Cousins), set down the notation"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jana_Gana_Mana

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Jul 2011, 21:27

Keerthi,
Righteous indignation on your part is just right! Becomes your age! One thing many on Rasikas.org do not know is how young you are because of your scholarly posts

We were ignited by Bharathi's inspired songs and embraced everything else which spoke of freedom.
Musically, strictly from a CM point of view, Tagore's creation is much inferior to the 'English Note' even! MMI alone had the right ingredients in his musical expression to pull it off, in my view.
Tagore meant well, but I read what Sruthi has posted and reading about the circumstances, I see it differently now!
Another factor is Rabindra Sangeet itself (minimalism with a mix of the East and the West is how I understand it). No room to reflect the nuances of HM or CM there.
I cannot somehow imagine Bharathi singing jana gana mana in gay abandon as he walked along the seashore every day!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Jul 2011, 21:53

I think 'nIrArum kadaludutha..' ( http://www.raaga.com/play/?id=59575 ) has the characteristics that Keerthi is talking about and is also amenable to the 'band' orchestral arrangements expected of typical national anthems. The tune has that majestic quality to it. It is interesting to imagine how the tune can be played by an orchestra in settings where national anthem is played. The lyrics are also good as a praise of the land, instead of listing the various regions etc. Some tweaks are needed to make it Pan Indian and set it in some common language ( that can be a thorny issue ).

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 01 Jul 2011, 22:14

nIrArum kadaludutha..

VK, You mean it is not the national anthem?

Kidding aside, this is the only song that is played in any DMK sponsored event. It is sad the the Dravidian movement co-opted this wonderful tamizh song as their anthem!

When I was about six, I was elected to sing "vAzhiya senthamizh" at a school valedictory event with Karunanidhi as chief guest. He was apparently really fuming that this song was chosen without his permission. Of course, he pretended to be nice to me as I was just a child. I even got a copy of the kuraL personally signed by him. But the minute I left the stage, he had his party hacks stand up and close the proceedings with "nIrArum".

On a different note, VK, you are right. "nirArum" has all the musical characteristics of a good anthem. A nice metric structure, pentatonic scale (mohanam and silappadikAram paN mix) and a crescendo that leads to a dramatic finish that would make any nationalist proud.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 01 Jul 2011, 22:24

Today is Canada Day as Canadians celeberate their day of National Identity. They sing the National anthem in both the national languages (English and French) consistent with the binational nature of the country.
Time to think of Official National anthems in regional languages in India that will promote regional and national identity! As Arasi suggests Bharathy's 'vaazhiya chenthamizh ...' is appropriate for TN. I would like to hear similar ones that have the national appeal for other SI languages...

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Jul 2011, 23:25

Mahavishnu, yes, that DMK co-opting that song is very unfortunate. When I was in high school, that used to be the song for all occasions. Not sure if that changed with the change in government.

The tune did make a special impression in me given that age. I was not tuned in to the political ramifications associated with it then, though there was some buzz about it as it was perceived as a replacement of the national anthem.

Wow, you are so lucky to get that autograph

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 01 Jul 2011, 23:41

CML,
A good idea. When we put up with so many tedious speeches, why not hear the regional anthem too (in each state) in gatherings where a national anthem is sung?

Mahavishnu,
vAzhiya Sendamizh!--and vAzhiya you who sang it as a child in an assembly!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Jul 2011, 23:47

vasanthakokilam wrote:DMK co-opting that song is very unfortunate.

When the phrase 'drAviDar nam tirunADu' appears in it, the co-option may've be unfortunate, but was inevitable.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Jul 2011, 23:57

And talking about vandE mAtaram, I prefer this utterly short, simple yet amazingly moving version to all the others infinitely.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Jul 2011, 02:18

Ravi,
Agreed! Short and melodious. It's all about Desh!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Jul 2011, 02:42

rshankar wrote:When the phrase 'drAviDar nam tirunADu' appears in it, the co-option may've be unfortunate, but was inevitable.

Yes, right.

But the song's noble history goes much further back (1891) before any of these 'co-opting characters' were even born.

I have a very pleasant association with this song. BTW, if I remember right, the phrase is 'drAviDa nal tirunAdum' and the context is Tamil, the language. Prof. Sundaram Pillai is setting the stage for it in the first few lines by paying homage to Earth, Bharath, South and the blessed Dravidian land using excellent metaphors. But for many in my friends' circle it is hard to see past the political association. While that is understandable, it is also unfortunate. After 30+ years, I see a few of them coming around to loving the song, both the music and the sentiments expressed in the song.

Does it still have the official status in TN today?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Jul 2011, 04:20

VK,
I've a confession to make. My visits to India were far and few in those years and I have no clue about this song being TN's anthem during that period. Kindly post the words of Sundaram Pillai's verses.

smala · Post by **smala** » 02 Jul 2011, 04:40

rshankar wrote:And talking about vandE mAtaram, I prefer this utterly short, simple yet amazingly moving version to all the others infinitely.

Thought that was how it is sung - on some occasions this way from my own recall.. your statement suggests there may be variations?

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Jul 2011, 04:47

arasi wrote:VK,I've a confession to make. My visits to India were far and few in those years and I have no clue about this song being TN's anthem during that period. Kindly post the words of Sundaram Pillai's verses.

'nIrArum' is the invocation piece( tamizh deiva vaNakkam ) of the drama manOnMaNIyam by Prof. Sundaram Pillai ( 1855-1891 ). Here is the link to the full drama. http://projectmadurai.org/pm_etexts/utf8/pmuni0105.html

தமிழ்த் தெய்வ வணக்கம் (பஃறாழிசைக் கொச்சகக்கலிப்பா)

நீராருங் கடலுடுத்த நிலமடந்தைக் கெழிலொழுகும்
சீராரும் வதனமெனத் திகழ்பரத கண்டமிதில்
தெக்கணமும் அதிற்சிறந்த திராவிடநல் திருநாடும்
தக்கசிறு பிறைநுதலும் தரித்தநறுந் திலகமுமே
அத்திலக வாசனைபோல் அனைத்துலகும் இன்பமுற
எத்திசையும் புகழ் மணக்க இருந்தபெருந் தமிழணங்கே.
உன் சீரிளமைத் திறம்வியந்து செயல்மறந்து
வாழ்த்துதுமே! வாழ்த்துதுமே!! வாழ்த்துதுமே!!!

Transliteration ( Using Arun's trasliteraton tool. Much better than what is found in wikipedia... )

nIrAru#n kaDaluDutta nilamaDandaik kezhilozhugum
sIrArum vadanamenat tigazhbarada kaNDamidil
tekkaNamum adiRsiRanda tirAviDanal tirunADum
takkasiRu piRainudalum tarittanaRun tilagamumE
attilaga vAsanaipOl anaittulagum inbamuRa
ettisaiyum pugazh maNakka irundaberun tamizhaNa#ngE
un sIriLamait tiRamviyandu seyalmaRandu
vAzhttudumE! vAzhttudumE!! vAzhttudumE!!!

Translation from wikipedia

"Bharat is like the face beauteous of Earth clad in wavy seas; Deccan is her brow crescent-like
on which the fragrant 'Tilak' is the blessed Dravidian land.
Like the fragrance of that 'Tilak' plunging the world in joy supreme reigns
Goddess Tamil with renown spread far and wide. Praise unto You, Goddess Tamil,
whose majestic youthfulness, inspires awe and ecstasy."

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 02 Jul 2011, 06:13

VK, yes those are beautiful lines. manOnMaNIyam is the original "period" epic-novel. I think it inspired so many later works.

The other point I wanted to make was the outright rejection of BhArathi by the same people that embraced the above. BhArathidAsan on the other hand was their revolutionary hero. Ironically, dAsan was indeed inspired by bhArathi himself!

Arasi, it was good thing that you escaped some of the politics surrounding this.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 Jul 2011, 07:50

Arasi - dES it is, simple, yet elegant!

smala wrote:Thought that was how it is sung - on some occasions this way from my own recall.. your statement suggests there may be variations?

Check youtube for more techno versions which fill me with despair for some reason...to me, this is a contemplative song, to savor the beauties of the motherland - her manifest charms - her beautiful smile, her sweet speech etc...and not one to be sung with verve and zest.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 Jul 2011, 08:24

VK - I am going to break your heart, but the link you posted for 'nIrArum kaDal' did nothing for me...nothing like how I feel when I hear sArE jahAn se acchA, or E mErE vatan kE lOgOn, or Sentamizh nADEnum pOdinilE (the version by Smt. MSS) or bhArata dESam enru peyar SolluvAr (Smt. MSS), or even this version of sindhu nadiyin miSai....

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Jul 2011, 09:01

Yes, all of them and--endaiyum tAyum magizhndu kulAvi irundadum innADE.
Let's not forget other songs about the dES! Mayuram Viswanatha Shastry's samarasa bhAvana and bhArata sAmrAjya sukhi. Both are available on youtube (GNB and Sanjay).

VK,
Thank you! I agree that the translation of Sundaram Pillais song isn't that appealing. The transliteration? Very different from what we use here!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Jul 2011, 09:49

Ravi: No issues there, I will recover

I am very much used to people around me not liking the song, for various reasons. I myself had not listened to it in a very long time. I think that Mohanam gamakam was the hook for me, at an early age.

The songs you mention are indeed different and I do like them. Since the context here is anthems, those MSS classics do have that anthem zest.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 02 Jul 2011, 12:44

smala wrote: Thought that was how it is sung - on some occasions this way from my own recall.. your statement suggests there may be variations?

Here is one such variation, though not in Desh Raga.

MS and Dilip Kumar Roy sing Vande Mataram - Recording must be in early 1940's - my guess.
http://www.mediafire.com/?5lux233zt6ya5kh

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 02 Jul 2011, 15:21

I remember to have read somewhere that the jana gana mana as we hear it was tuned by a foreigner Alain Danielou and he was close to Nehru who though appreciative of MSS music was responsible for banning harmonium from AIR till he was alive.
Of all the indian poets of the last century None had the breath of vision of the prestige of the Entire country as a whole like Bharathi had.But his greatest misfortune was that he was born as a tamilian brahmin in the epoch of EVR. The dravidian movement was forced to recognize him very late and very reluctantly as a poet because it wanted to prop up one who called himself as his disciple.
Was jayathi jayathi bharatha matha ( G N B ) also by mayuram visvanatha sastri?
I think that in TN even Sundaram pillai's song has been replaced by one by Bharathidasan.
rajagopalan.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 02 Jul 2011, 16:16

Ponbhairavi wrote: Was jayathi jayathi bharatha matha ( G N B ) also by mayuram visvanatha sastri?

Yes indeed

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 02 Jul 2011, 20:10

Yes, Ponbhairavi!
It slipped my mind. Of course, jayati jayati bhArata mAtA is another one.

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 02 Jul 2011, 21:09

jayati jayati was Mayuram Viswanatha Sastri's and it was one of the songs that was officially considered for the National Anthem. Unfortunately this song was rejected and the mediocre, dEsha drOha song ofTagore was chosen. This janaganamana is totally repugnant to the concept of patriotism, notwithstanding Tagore's lame excuses about it being in praise of the so called Lord of Destiny. And this lame excuse comes in 1937, 26 years after he wrote that rubbish only after there were criticisms that he had praised the King of England. The song, sahitya-wise and musically too, as pointed out by Keerthi is a blot on this country, a national shame and must be rejected and replaced.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 02 Jul 2011, 21:42

Vande maataram was rejected because of Muslim opposition, just to placate them though there is no reference to Hindu deities in the song. Actually they should have requested a composition/music at the time of independance and selected one among them since there were competent poets and musicians alive. Of course the composition had to be in Hindi/urdu/Sanskrit/. Regional anthems is the way to go and it is not too late yet.

In my younger days at the youth congress meets we used to sing 'Thaayin maNikkoDi pAreer..' (bharathi) so movingly rendered by DKP originally. That is also fit for a TN anthem since it is secular...

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 02 Jul 2011, 22:24

Ppanasam Sivan used to render this song along with others in the beginning of Satyamurthi's oratory talk & the audience was AROUSED to the highest level of fervour..................VKV

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 02 Jul 2011, 23:00

RaviSri and keerthi have the sense of righteous indignation exhibited by Bharathi ( Nenju porukkudhillaye indha nilai ketta manidharai.....) but the sad truth is that our great country is still suffering many other national shames and has still not got enough national sense to reject non national dominence/ influences.
Tagore who was a very wealthy person used to travel to England and on his way stopped to spend a few days with Romain Rolland on the fontiers of France and both discussed Poetry and music and this is how his poems reached the western world and got him the Nobel award( both in successive years). Poor Bharathi!!. He had no protector ,let alone sponsors and he had to wait for so many years for due recognition in his homeland itself.
rajagopalan

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Jul 2011, 01:45

Ponbhairavi,
In this connection, though this is about the ever- popular KavidaigaL thread in General Discussions, let me say it here.
I read several of your translations of french poems and they are so good. You should put them up on a regular basis there--one every ten days or so. Sridharang, Ganeshkanth and others as well. PBala is good in that he shares his poems often.
Back to the anthems: yes, bhArati's bhUlOka kumAri is another one (in sanskrit).

smala · Post by **smala** » 03 Jul 2011, 12:28

Found this on youtube yet another version of vandE mAtaram - quite patriotic in its fervor together with the scene.. don't miss the uploader's blurb in the dropdown below the video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Os_8BN2qmw

RaviSri · Post by **RaviSri** » 03 Jul 2011, 17:34

About Ponbhairavi's observations on Tagore and Bharati, they are 100% true. Bharati had his opposition right here in Tamilnadu and his critic was none other than Kalki himself. Kalki was a self-appointed scholar and critic. He knew very lttle of music or poetry, yet he had the temerity to comment on these two arts.

When it was suggested in The Hindu by a prominent reader that Bharati was the greatest poet this country had produced, Kalki, ever the cynic pooh poohed it and said Bharati was not a true poet whereas Tagore was and that Bharati could not hold a candle to Tagore. When many readers of The Hindu protested and put the truth in perspective with examples Kalki had to beat a hasty retreat from the debate. Such was Bharati's 'great fortune'. It is because of AShADAbhUties, pretenders and hypocrites like Kalki amongst us that South India did not get its due.

sruthi · Post by **sruthi** » 03 Jul 2011, 18:41

There is no need to put down Tagore in order to praise Bharati.
Tagore was a great poet. So was Bharati.

As has been pointed out, his own fellow Tamilians may have worked against Bharati getting his due recognition.
While Bengalis were (and are) proud of Tagore, and supported him fully.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Jul 2011, 19:41

Just add to that Bharathy was a patriotic freedom fighter whereas Tagore had reconciled to british rule.
Bharathy in no small measure inspired the freedom struggle whereas there is no such claims from Bengalis who venerate Subash Bose as the all-time freedom fighter. Even Rajaji underestimated Bharathi's potential in the freedom fight. The dravida parties (erstwhile justice party) were actually 'traitors' and so justifiably ignore Bharathi's contributions!

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 04 Jul 2011, 15:21

Rajaji is another great tamilian who was denied his due by History. somehow whenever i listen to his Kurai Onrum Illai I only hear his communion with God his inner moaning and his stoic effort to reconcile couched in a outer diction of "enga appa gudhirukku ulle illai " type. ( incidentally has he composed any other song ?)
rajagopalan

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 04 Jul 2011, 15:27

Arasi,
your post 43. thanks.I thought my translations are too long. However i will try to extract some and put it up in deference to your request.
rajagopalan.