ET: A Quick Corporate Case Study of Carnatic Music

[Rsachi]

Read ET on Carnatic Music and India Inc

Great that Economic Times, generally busy with Stock Index, RIL and scams, has written a full centre-page on CM! Thanks to honchos with money and mind focused on CM. Some bits that caught my eye:
1. Indra Nooyi is the niece of Aruna Sayeeram.
2. Thyagarajan started a company to help his whole and sole Carnatic idol Lalgudi Jayaraman.
3. Sridhar, his protege, describes his boss as a musical terrorist and himself wants to share for a fee 10000 concerts online.
4. Sheshashayee wants more fusion to attract the young.
5. They say corporates cover 70% of MA spend via sponsorships.
6. There was no dip in Corporate spend on CM even during 2008-2009 bad times.
7. Why don't North Indians take as much interest in CM as we do in Jasraj?
8. There will be 3000 or so concerts this season in 120 sabhas.
9. Shankar Ramani, VP, Cognizant, NJ, will give 13 concerts this season!
10. People queued up at 2 AM at MA for tickets.

[varsha]

Flippant post removed . Apologies to the original poster .

[Rsachi]

Dear Moderators, I blame Varsha-Ji entirely for introducing flippancy into this serious discussion.

[Nick H]

Varsha's points are good ones, and, although I haven't read the whole article yet, here is something that worries me:

But there's an even bigger concern than who pays: who attends? N Murali, president of The Music Academy, presents this as a paradox, "We find that the younger generation of musicians is very, very accomplished. But the average age of the audience hasn't come down."

At a festival of young musicians recently, it was good to see them on stage, but the audience was just the same oldie regulars.

[vasanthakokilam]

That seems to be even more true in the afternoon concerts especially at Non music academy venues. My prediction is that they will be the first casualty of the natural demographic changes.

[Rsachi]

Nick,
I have heard this for many years now. But really, I estimate that there are several thousands of middle aged and old people who want and will pay for good classical entertainment. So no need to compare CM to mass entertainment unfavourably, in my opinion. The only cause for worry will be when youngsters don't want to learn classical music or dance, and this is not the issue we are facing I think.
The issue is when we host 100 concerts per day. Even rajni movies will fail if they run in 100 theatres every day in a town.

[vasanthakokilam]

Rsachi, I did not want to sound too macabre, but imagine what happens when the middle aged and old people are not replaced in sufficient quantities as time passes. This problem is an odd one in that there is a resurgent interest in youngsters learning the classical music and dance but not in the audience. Granted there will always be people interested in classical music. And It is not an immediate problem but if what Murali observes is indeed true and consistent over the years, then it is time to ring the alarm bell at lower dBs. It can definitely be turned around given enough time, commitment and resources.

[Rsachi]

VK,
I attended some 20 programs over the last year in Blr. I found 10% <30 yr olds in programs like MSS tribute etc., 20-30% in current day artiste programs, and 40%+ in big name star attractions.
I don't think it was EVER better than this. Even when TV, cineplex, malls, hang-out places didn't exist.
Remember that incomes, cultural interests and leisure levels of 50+ segment are all going up. and there will be lots of such people in every town.
I may be unduly optimistic, but I think sponsorships, intelligent programming, due publicity, avoiding program overloads, interaction with artistes etc., will go to maintain this level easily. Further, things like SPIC-MACAY will help in avoiding cultural alienation of youngsters.

[Nick H]

Wow, maybe Bangalore is the future Chennai!

I am not comparing CM to mass entertainment, nor am I saying that there are no youngsters at Chennai concerts. Even some of our rasikas.org membership is not exactly old, and, hearteningly, among the younger members are some of our scholars and authors. Well, they are not exactly teenagers, of course, and it would be nice to see a few more of those in the audiences.

[vasanthakokilam]

I hope you are right, Rsachi. Activities like interaction with artists have some chance of being successful in getting more people interested.

One thing that is interesting to watch in a young CM student is this. From treating CM as something that their parents made them do, they actually start liking it. They listen to CM on their own, start having favorite songs and ragas and look forward to going to concerts. It may not happen to all the students but when it happens you can see a palpable change in how they relate to CM and a change in some intrinsic quality of their singing or playing. This is the commonly observed phenomenon of a student becoming a rasika and how it reflexively affects their artistry.

I think such a shift happens to a lay man rasika too. I am thinking in this direction to explore what the entrenched rasikas can do to increase the chances of that happening. But I wonder if the intimidation factor we discussed in another thread plays a role here. How does a layman, that 25% percentile person, feel in the midst of the 50%-75% percentile people who are too proud at their ability to keeping talams whether it is correct or not, start talking of ragas at the drop off a hat and have a wide repertoire of terminology whether relevant or not, in general be snooty and critical of things at a nit picky level and look down upon them for liking the popular thukkads and complain of the same thukkadas being played again and again. You know, us here.

So the fellow rasikas have a role to play in cultivating the ground so outsiders do not feel intimidated to get on the field.

[Nick H]

So far as the students are concerned, the one you see are the success stories.

Whilst the ones that fall away may not even take any future interest, there is a middle group, and I suspect it may be quite large, that puzzles me: the ones that go to class, may even dream of sitting up there on the stage, but do not, regularly, go to concerts. Am I right in thinking that such a group of youngsters exists? Do they become artists who don't go to any other concerts except the ones they are performing at? I'm stabbing in the dark here, tell me am I right or wrong...

[Rsachi]

Nick,
I have seen that many amongst us who spent some years learning Indian music or dance sustain a level of (nostalgic?) interest that comes up later to make them raiskas. Some will also encourage youngsters in their family to take up the arts.

[Nick H]

Great that Economic Times, generally busy with Stock Index, RIL and scams, has written a full centre-page on CM! Thanks to honchos with money and mind focused on CM.

Thank goodness for the sponsors. And thanks too, in the case of public companies, that shareholders are not hounding them about spending money on something with no apparent "ROI".

[sureshvv]

Rsachi, I did not want to sound too macabre, but imagine what happens when the middle aged and old people are not replaced in sufficient quantities as time passes. This problem is an odd one in that there is a resurgent interest in youngsters learning the classical music and dance but not in the audience. Granted there will always be people interested in classical music. And It is not an immediate problem but if what Murali observes is indeed true and consistent over the years, then it is time to ring the alarm bell at lower dBs. It can definitely be turned around given enough time, commitment and resources.

uday! where are you?

[anonymityatlast]

I guess seeing the beliefs on how demanding it is to be a rasika of CM, most youngsters that are into are students (often good ones), and going on and off stage. As they grow older, perhaps they decide one way or another. This could explain the distribution of youngsters on the two sides of the stage well.

[bilahari]

The lack of students evolving into rasikas is the problem afflicting (at least NRI) youth, methinks. I have often been surprised by how eager young people are to mount the stage and perform, but significantly less enthused about actually attending concerts and listening to music. And with the number of concert opportunities available, it seems almost anyone no matter their dedication and talent - as long as they have the resources and the "pull" - is able to perform. I do not want to be judgemental, but cannot help doubting the sincerity of a large portion of youth pursuing CM.

On the other hand, I do assure you that there are at least a few of us out there who do not dream about being performers, nor even want to, and are perfectly content listening to good music. And we will do whatever we can to keep this art going! As a lowly paid soldier and then lab assistant for four years, my primary expenses were buying music and annual season trips to Chennai...

[PUNARVASU]

Bilahari, as long as youngsters like you are there , we need not worry about ' young audience' May your tribe increase! '

[Nick H]

Sincerity is an overused word*, but I think that bilahari is right.

I also think that the age group that concerns us here is quite a few years younger than bilahari. What we need (for the future) is teens in the audience ...and not just when their guru is singing.


*But I appreciate it's use in the CM context, when I see a subset of artists regularly attending other people's performances. The subset is not as big as it might be. The non-attending students probably go on to being non-attending artists.

[sruthi]

This may be relevant here:
AIR cuts down on Carnatic music
http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/air- ... 164802.ece

[Rsachi]

Sruthi,
While listening to our government bemoaning the impending death of CM, let me also list what they say about other things:
1. Indians don't know how to grow, transport or sell groceries, so let's get in Walmart.
2. It's difficult to run telephones and airlines in our vast country, so let's privatize.
3. It's difficult to provide basic education, healthcare or drinking water, so let's take charity and private help.

[srikant1987]

With telephones and airlines, I think it has been the right thing to do. I actually would like it if Air India closed down too -- I remember once remarking "when Air India's pilots strike, won't that reduce its losses?"

But indeed, one of the reasons we have governments in addition to the market is to "go against the current" to promote and demote somethings, and that Indian classical and folk music should be promoted, even against the current, is a sentiment I share too!

[sureshvv]

Sruthi,
While listening to our government bemoaning the impending death of CM, let me also list what they say about other things:
1. Indians don't know how to grow, transport or sell groceries, so let's get in Walmart.
2. It's difficult to run telephones and airlines in our vast country, so let's privatize.
3. It's difficult to provide basic education, healthcare or drinking water, so let's take charity and private help.

I don't think they say any of these things. Can you provide a reference?

[Rsachi]

Sureshvv,
Good challenge!
Remember, one may not say something in so many words, but actions are a good indicator of thoughts.

Some points now:
1. What is the rationale to open retail to FDI? Read this white paper.
2. How do you explain the growth of telephone reach and usage as well as air travel in the past 15 years? Why did they open up these two sectors? Telecom white paper do you remember Pramod Mahajan rooting for Reliance against the interests of BSNL, MTNL, VSNL? Air travel sector is much in the news so I won't need to give you data.
3. Why are several government hospitals and primary healthcare activities being opened up to PPP? I know this sector well. Mumbai alone is a good case study. Most states now reimburse private hospital treatments rather than provide care, whereas majority of medical colleges are run by government!
4. Who arranged drinking water supply to large parts of south India? Read this
5. What is the role of Akshayapatra in primary education? Has it helped enrollment in schools? Read this

There is a clear pattern in all this. It is a cop-out by the government.

Actually this is a good debate, but perhaps this forum is not amenable for it. We can take this up at length, offline, or in a separate forum of your choice, if you like.

Sachi R

[venkatakailasam]

Certain things cannot be proved..in black and white.we have go by the intentions..and how things are moving.....

I cannot agree that a teens can ever BE brought to CM stream..unless they have a CM background..

Their interests lie else where....they like more of Hindi or language film music..they find it easy to listen with out the complexities of CM..

We cannot take the participants at balabrahmam or Air tel program or carnatic music idol as representative sample...

The fact that AIR has scaled down their CM program is forewarn-er of the ensuing gloom over the future of CM...

On a lighter side best thing appears to be handing over CM to wall mart who can open outlets for CM..

[Nick H]

I cannot agree that a teens can ever BE brought to CM stream..unless they have a CM background..

Just the ones that are music students will do for now. I am not suggesting that it is practical suggestion to drag them out of the cinemas. In UK, cost is a valid reason for not having a whole family, however sincere in the classroom, attend every available performance, but here it is no excuse.

I've seen Veena J&J almost begging their students to go and listen to music, and awarding a prize to one small boy for the number of season programs he had seen. Why should there be such a problem? There's a percentage of students who are not there just because of parental pressure. To what extent are teachers still actually discouraging students from listening to other performers?

[srikant1987]

I am not suggesting that it is practical suggestion to drag them out of the cinemas.

Part of the problem, Nick, unfortunately, is that the teens these days DON'T EVEN HAVE "TIME" FOR CINEMA. Perhaps Varsha would like to elaborate a little bit here!

Besides, I feel movies these days -- at least Hindi ones -- are VERY OFTEN U/A or A certified and most teens wouldn't be allowed to sit in cinemas by staff themselves, let alone their parents.

[venkatakailasam]

The problems facing CM...

The problem of plenty
Palghat R. Ramprasad....

read at the Hindu..

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/the- ... 170622.ece

[venkatakailasam]

Some relevant views expressed by SSI...

" Largely because music is now spread very wide and, therefore, very thin. Also because music in those days was learnt directly as an oral tradition from guru to sishya, where the sishya stayed in the guru's house and learnt as much as he could from the guru. It fostered an all-round training - when the guru sang, when he composed a new song and interacted with other musicians. That enrichment is denied to our youth in this mechanical age.

Also, today's youth do not have role models the way we had in those days. For example, one could listen to Ramanuja Iyengar sing for hours. He not only gave us the concert format that we follow now, but also popularised many ragas and a variety of kritis. Listening to his rendering of ragas and swaras, one would think that he had memorised them all. It would be so precise and perfect. His presentation was excellent. Even his guru Poochi Iyengar could not match Ramanuja Iyengar's presentation, I am told..."

" I was greatly influenced by Ramanuja Iyengar. I do not want another life. But if there is one, I want to be able to sing like Ramanuja Iyengar...."

"The young artists should listen to these great musicians as much as possible. It will certainly inspire them and will help instil some life into their music. "....

"In those days there were only a handful of sabhas in Madras - in Egmore, Triplicane and Mylapore. I, for instance, used to give only five or six concerts a month. Once I gave 22 performances in a month, but that was very rare. Today, there is a proliferation of music. It is in a way good for musicians. They gain greater exposure and visibility. But such easy accessibility and over-exposure has desensitised the audience. In the past you had to seek music and savour it. So every concert was an unforgettable experience.

The audience then had patience and discipline. They used to listen with rapt attention to concerts even if they extended to over four hours. If anyone was found talking, he would be literally thrown out. Artists also commanded that kind of respect. Sakharama Rao and Dhakshinamurti Pillai have been known to walk out from concerts if they were disturbed by the audience. Similar were the attitudes of stalwarts such as Tiger Varadachariar and my uncle, Krishna Iyer. They could not tolerate disrespect to the art. Today's performers not only tolerate indiscipline, they also rely more on fast and virtuosic music which do not permit much depth. Youngsters now render swara-based ragas. Swara should merge with raga. It should not be the basis on which you sing a raga.

This is because people come to concerts today not the way they would go to a temple, as it was in the past, but as they would go to the theatre - for entertainment. Our artists are compelled to please them. Many in the audience keep discussing politics and "pattu" (silk) saris. That should not be tolerated.

The other regrettable modern practice is the audience bursting into applause in the middle of a song. This creates an illusion that the success of a concert is to be gauged by the volume and frequency of applause. I think we should have a thumb rule that there should be no clapping in the middle of a song. Many artists go on a swara race, taking them to a pitch, as if to imitate drumbeats, to get an applause. "

"Microphones were introduced in the 1940s. It ushered in a revolution. The singer no longer had to develop full-throated resonance. Before the 1930s we used to sing without mikes and fans. The auditorium would be full. Amplification would be achieved by tonal clarity, depth, weight and vocal power. The mridangam is a victim too. Restraint robs music of natural force and lucidity. It can be pleasing to the ear, but cannot haunt the mind. "


" Some people have advocated learning music by standing neck-deep in cold water and so on. All that is nonsense. My advice to youngsters, especially male vocalists, is that you should come out and sing only after your voice matures. These days young children are brought to the stage even before their voice breaks. It may be nice to hear children sing, but it is best to wait till the voice matures.

There is today a lack of devotion. Musicians should be charged with devotion. There should be bhakti towards music. That would liven music and ensure that it endures. "


Above are extracts from an interview by Chitra veena Ravikiran and Asha Krishnakumar.

Appeared in Front line Oct. 24 - Nov. 06, 1998 ...

For full interview ...http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1522/15220650.htm

[Nick H]

The audience then had patience and discipline. They used to listen with rapt attention to concerts even if they extended to over four hours. If anyone was found talking, he would be literally thrown out. Artists also commanded that kind of respect. Sakharama Rao and Dhakshinamurti Pillai have been known to walk out from concerts if they were disturbed by the audience. Similar were the attitudes of stalwarts such as Tiger Varadachariar and my uncle, Krishna Iyer. They could not tolerate disrespect to the art. Today's performers not only tolerate indiscipline, they also...

...practice it themselves. Not only should the discipline spoken of exist (respect for music; respect for artists; respect for other audience) but the front row should not think it doesn't apply to them.

[harimau]

Here is what K. N. Shashikiran, an artist as well as an organizer as he is part of the Carnatica team, has to say about the business side of music.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/121208/n ... -tough-job