Where are the giants?

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 26 Dec 2012, 17:27

Sad, but true. Came across this in today's Hindu. At-least now it should serve as an eye opener.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... 238698.ece

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 26 Dec 2012, 18:03

Most of the "what-ails-carnatic-music" articles can be taken with a pinch of salt, but this one seems more serious. Part two to follow, with mridangist interviews.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 27 Dec 2012, 00:46

semmu86 wrote:Sad, but true. Came across this in today's Hindu. At-least now it should serve as an eye opener.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... 238698.ece

INTERESTING Article and raises some very relevant points. Artists like M.M.I., GNB, MALI etc used to openly APPRECIATE & ENCOURAGE ACCOMPANISTS and even expand on the nuances the accompanists came up with. Ego was singularly lacking in many of them & the whole effort appeared to be to making the WHOLE CONCERT reach higher creative levels. It is a fact that many accompanists like Akkarai Subbulaksmi, Dr.M.Narmadha, and almost all the percussionists are WELL Disciplined and are not only highly creative but at a TECHNICAL LEVEL- Sruti & Laya Suddham not to speak Swarasthanasuddham- far superior to the main artists....The article by late Sri. B.V.K.Sastry-nov 22, Illustrated Weelky of India, 1962- pointed this out by saying that Madurai Mani Iyer's ability to do the three things mentioned above alone PROPELLED him to the TOP. His observations still hold true and I still do not play recordings of Carnatic Music to Music Students here(North America) & North Indians other than those of M.M.I., M.S.S., MALI and Ravi Kiran for these reasons. If my provocative observations result in a critical discussion on these subjects I think Carnatic Music will be well served. PL DON'T ATTACK THE MESSENGER but pay heed to the message... .......VKV

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 30 Dec 2012, 05:53

Part 2: http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/cast ... epage=true

At least there is a note of optimism from upapakkavAdyam artistes.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 30 Dec 2012, 08:13

Bilahari: Like your sense of humor! Unfortunately in this case it is Reality too...Rarely rubber meets the road & things are not different! VKV

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 30 Dec 2012, 08:26

Mr. VKV,
Great topic and very important observations from you. It is difficult for God to come up with another MMI!

The dynamics of main and accompanying artistes is perhaps the perfect context to state 'dharmO rakshati rakshitaH'
My respect for current-day musicians goes up a few notches when I see a positive, mutually respectful chemistry amongst them.
I have commented to friends how I have sensed a kind of contempt of a few GREAT mridanga vidwans towards ghatam/khanjira players on stage, it betrays their character.
Sachi R

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 30 Dec 2012, 09:01

--- Perhaps we should say "What a shame of a review this is," every timt the mridangist gets a three-word mention at the end of six column inches.

--- The situation for ghatam artists has improved. Morsing artists no longer exist.

By-the-ways...

--- Hands up all those artists who get 40,000 for a concert.

--- a non-English word either has a non-English plural, according to the rules of its own language, or in an English-language context it gets an 's' tacked on the end, or has -ies forms etc. -s never has been an English plural form and never will be. I guess this author writes for Shruti magazine who invented this ugly deformation.

The article quotes a few well-established percussion players. It does not cover the full range. I wonder what the responses from the up-and-comings (who might well have "preferred not to have their names mentioned") might have been?

Rsachi wrote:The dynamics of main and accompanying artistes is perhaps the perfect context to state 'dharmO rakshati rakshitaH'
My respect for current-day musicians goes up a few notches when I see a positive, mutually respectful chemistry amongst them.

These are the really great concerts. In fact, I don't think a concert can be great at all without this. I simply stopped attended one artist's concerts after I saw his violinist either denied returns or cut off after a few notes. It's an extreme case, perhaps it might not have been his usual habit, but it offended me.

I have commented to friends how I have sensed a kind of contempt of a few GREAT mridanga vidwans towards ghatam/khanjira players on stage, it betrays their character.

Same thing applies. Sometimes it seems hardly worth those other artists being there. There is a concept that the mridangist is "in charge" of all percussion: sometimes this works, sometimes it detracts from the team work that makes a concert, rather than an individual, great.

My mridanagam guruji has always taught, "You are there to make the main artist, not yourself, look great: if you do this, you will look great too." That is true, but it does not absolve the main artist of the responsibility of team leading and team sharing. In my view, a manager is there to make his team look great, and if he does that then he will look great too.

Perhaps I'm lucky in the concerts I attend and the artists that I regularly hear. I see plenty of great, heart- and ear-warming interaction on the stage --- but there are exceptions.

jagan · Post by **jagan** » 30 Dec 2012, 09:47

I think the article seems to more oriented to voicing the views of violinists with high opinions of themselves and their prowess (nothing wrong in that) but forgetting the point that they are there as pakka vadhyams with a duty to heighten the overall musical effort and not to show themselves off. All the Great Violinists of yesteryears have followed this dictum and in the process covered themselves with glory. Have you ever heard of Lalgudi or TN K trying to overstep the vistas set by the Vocalist?
The only heartening thing is that this Pakka Vadhya Dharma has been articulated by another great violinist of the present generation Sri. R.K. Sriramkumar

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 30 Dec 2012, 13:13

Have you ever heard of Lalgudi or TN K trying to overstep the vistas set by the Vocalist?
The only heartening thing is that this Pakka Vadhya Dharma has been articulated by another great violinist of the present generation Sri. R.K. Sriramkumar

It should be noted that Prof TN Krishnan himself, too, has voiced concerns over whether the accompanying violinists of today receive the same challenge, appreciation and growth he got from accompanying past masters.

msakella · Post by **msakella** » 30 Dec 2012, 13:52

If we want to know the quality of a gent we must rely upon the statement of either his wife or his disciple or his office-peon but not others.

Even though every lady always expects a very good husband only, ultimately, she will be compelled to adjust herself to the available husband keeping the feelings for herself only all along her life. The same is the thing with the main artists too.

In the same manner, the accompanists only know what happens upon the dais with the main artists and nobody else can even imagine them. As a professional Violin-accompanist for more than 50 years I have a lot of bitter experiences in my life. I have also seen such incidents which can be recognised by a professional accompanist only but not by others at all. A great Violinist or Mridangist may externally look like accompanying the main artist very amicably. But, the actual internal feelings of the participants on the dais will entirely be different which they never reveal. Some people may not agree with me if I write that Shri M.S.Gopalakrishnan is the true accompanist to the core.

Even this, now, I can write as I have already given up accompanying profession 15 years back. amsharma

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 30 Dec 2012, 18:03

I agree with RKSK that the only real objective of an accompanist is to enhance the main artiste's music, and if that means changing one's style to suit the main artiste, and in so doing not feeling that one is playing to one's full potential, then so be it. Accompaniment, as it has been discussed before, requires a different set of skills than playing solo, and it takes great humility and also great sensitivity to adhere to the main artiste's music and put him or her before oneself. I have occasionally found accompanists overstaying their welcome in a concert (excessively long violin returns; unnecessary tIrmAnams and neverending tanis). It reminds me of a TNK interview where he says that it is not necessary for a violinist to entirely reconstruct a ragam after an elaborate alapanai by the vocalist - it is sufficient to complete the picture of the ragam by playing the important phrases missed by the vocalist and highlighting the major phrases. For instance, if a vocalist largely sings in the lower and middle octaves, one can find a violinist briskly working his/her way up to the upper octave and covering the major phrases there before finishing the alapanai. I am sometimes bored when a violinist chooses to entirely rebuild the ragam taking almost the same time as the vocalist and often offering nothing particularly new.

That, however, does not give the main artiste a reason to severely underpay the accompanists (and it is a complaint I have heard from many travelling accompanists too) because it is a fact that each member of the team contributes to a concert's success and the main artiste alone rarely carries the day despite the accompanists, but usually does so because of them. MMI is a great example of a musician who used to genuinely appreciate his accompanists, expand on the violinists' phrases, inspire them to produce their best, and also revel in the sarvalaghu of a mrudangam artiste like VR, with all of them on stage ultimately feeding off each other and creating a true concert! Of course, the main artiste also should have an open mind and humility to accept inspiration from his or her accompanists, and it appears that some contemporary accompanists find this quality lacking. It would be interesting to hear from contemporary vocalists of varying seniority about this matter - both of the artistic and financial woes of an accompanist.

It is also an important point that accompanists should play with a variety of vocalists and that one should not largely restrict oneself to a set team - I think it is important to the evolution of each artiste concerned and the variety of music on offer too. As has been mentioned in this forum before (by annamalai?), MMI's music would be different with Chowdiah/TNK/LGJ and PMI/Pazhani/VR. And there is something refreshingly different in each of these concerts!

That said, I do not think all hope is lost presently. As a rasika with little knowledge of the backstage politics, I find artistes like NSG and TMK to be very encouraging of accompanists (TMK-RKSK concerts are very often a vocal-violin jugalbandi of the kind Ganesh demands!), and can see great camaraderie in such teams (Sanjay-Varadarajan-Neyveli Venkatesh; TMK-RKSK-KAP; Vijay Siva-RKSK-JV). I think violinists like RKSK will go down in history as a 'giant' too, but of course only posterity will judge him and the others. I am also encouraged by the skills of so many violinists today, and I think sometimes that a large challenge to their becoming legends is that the ones before them, like TNK, LGJ, MSG, VVS, and MC, have taken the instrument so far both technically and musically that it has become far more difficult to innovate beyond what they have done, and in the span of a few generations too. After all, the violin greats came about three quarters of a century after the violin was (re)introduced to Indian music! Of course, there is also the question of what kind of a revolution, a truly legendary revolution, remains to be accomplished in a field like violin accompaniment. I am curious to hear others' views on this.

Sorry for the rambling, and please feel free to yell at me if I've misunderstood anything.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 30 Dec 2012, 19:49

I cannot prevent myself from narrating this: A young violinist, who used to accompany KVN quite a bit in '80s told me about a kingly vocalist, endowed with a powerful voice, with a mass following in those days, (and also mentioned by some sabha-secretary later to me for his money-mindedness). He once took this violinist on a several-week-long tour all over India.
At the end of the tour, he gave him a pricely sum of Rs.40/- as his total emolument. When the violinist narrated this, he could not hold back his tears.

I have heard from a senior mridanga vidwan in Blr about how organisers lavished remuneration on Madrasi stars but hesitated to pay even auto-fare to him. They asked him to travel home by bus!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 30 Dec 2012, 20:33

Bilahari - when you say 'travelling accompanists' do you mean the ones that tour the US? In my (limitted) experience, for the most part, local CM associations do not pay the artists directly, but, they pay the organization that brings/sponsors the trip of the team. Except for a few performers who organize their own trips, it is usually these organizations like Bhairavi or IACRF that makes the payement to all artists, typically at the end of the trip. The organization also takes care of travel between concerts(*) and finding hosts for the artists.
I guess it is these organizations that need to come up with some sort of formula that will allow for parity and prevent underpaying of travelling accompanists then.
(*) A story for another time!!!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 30 Dec 2012, 20:39

Sarmaji:
That husband/wife/family analogy is Telling! The family will break-up if any of them misbehaves. Invariably the husband becomes the head of the family who brings the Turkey home to be shared by all. If he consumes the whole , then tough luck, the Family is dissolved. Divorces are becoming too common these days and we are accepting the existence of solitary partners. Is that good for the health of CM is a different question! Genetically CM may evolve and prosper in that milieu as well! But we Rasikas have to adjust ourselves for that eventuality. If with foresight we want to stall that evolution the action must come at the Rasika level. Or else there is the potential danger of some species going extinct!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 30 Dec 2012, 20:47

I do mean the touring ones, Ravi, but not just in the U.S. And their complaints were not specifically about the tours but more general laments.

I do not understand the remuneration of touring artistes, but an accompanist once praised the vocalist he was travelling with for being magnanimous enough to evenly divide the sum into three parts and give the violinist and mrudangist a third each. So I just came to assume that these central organisations pay the main artiste who in turn decides the remuneration of his team. I am mistaken, apparently? I tried to stay away from non-musical matters because what little I heard was horrifying enough to risk my respecting musicians and hence their music less.

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 30 Dec 2012, 20:54

"It reminds me of a TNK interview where he says that it is not necessary for a violinist to entirely reconstruct a ragam after an elaborate alapanai by the vocalist - it is sufficient to complete the picture of the ragam by playing the important phrases missed by the vocalist and highlighting the major phrases."

Wonderful. But only TNK can do that Bilahari with his honeyed bowing. I remember a Sangeeth sammelan Concert where TNK palyed for KVN. KVN sang Virutham in Valaji raga for about 3 min. TNK played just 11/2 min & Appa just blushed said BESH. Audience were transported to some other world. Memorable events.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 30 Dec 2012, 21:57

Sorry if am being a bit candid. This is all from first hand information i gathered and saw/ seeing over the years.

If i understand correct, the article is trying to say about the impact that pakkavAdhyams used to have in the concerts, which is coming down drastically. It is rather alarmingly disturbing (Maybe we are yet to come to terms with its enormity) when the article says that the accompanists are playing only for acceptance and not aspiring for greatness. As a matter of fact i was told by certain senior sabha secretaries and some senior musicians themselves that there were times when concerts used to attract people just on the merit of the accompanying artists too. A senior musician told me that people used to ask( This is what he said to me) "Lalgudi is accompanying which musician today? (Rather than telling so & so is accompanied by Lalgudi), Pazhani Subramania Pillai is playing for whom? etc etc..

Am sure that is not the case today, no matter however we glorify the so-called chemistry between artists. Not that am equating their merits or anything as such. The underlying fact is that when we go to the root of the problem, it is all to do with the ATTITUDE of the main artists towards the accompanists. Classic example is Bharati Ramasubban's concert this season at the MA. In what was otherwise a very good concert, the thani was given with hardly 3 mins left for the concert to end (He played so well. A 90 min concert definitely deserves a 5-6 mintute thani). Cannot help feeling so bad for the poor guy. He had to just play an avarthanam of pharans and round off with the mOhrA kOrvai, so as to enable the vocalist to sing a concluding piece. The reason Why someone like Nagai Sriram/ S.Varadharajan (Two of the BEST violinists we have today) is not preferred by leading vocalists of the day is something left to be answered.

Finally the truth :: If the accompanists try to carry themselves even with an iota of self respect and gowravam they will never have concerts to play (To say it in musical parlance "avALukku kutchEri naDakkAdhu"). Am not faulting the accompanists here at all. They have to give up on certain things (Which unfortunately includes their talent too), underplay themselves and crow catch the "Important" ones to keep themselves going. Not many will agree to it in public though.

If you guys can swallow this then fine. Else we have to just keep arguing and keep wasting bandwidth.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 30 Dec 2012, 22:00

Semmu, well summarized. I think you have captured the essence of the problem very succinctly.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 30 Dec 2012, 22:22

In fact, Sikkil Bhaskaran told in his lec-dem today (30.12.2012) @ the MA, that the accompanists of those years had stamped their individuality to such an extent, that for example in a recording, a sharp ear can identify them without even waiting for the names to be announced.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said today. Reason could be either that they are not competent enough to do so or that they were not allowed the freedom to do so.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 30 Dec 2012, 23:02

Bilahari - As I understand it (and this may be peculiar to the orchestral teams that support arangETRams and other dance programs), each of the artists in the group is paid by the organization.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 30 Dec 2012, 23:22

semmu86 wrote:The reason Why someone like Nagai Sriram/ S.Varadharajan (Two of the BEST violinists we have today) is not preferred by leading vocalists of the day is something left to be answered.

These two are indeed preferred by top vocalists, most of the time they are blocked. Not sure how you came to the conclusion that they are not preferred.
I agree with your last post .

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 30 Dec 2012, 23:33

I some how find these articles just adding more negativity . Pay is definitely a problem for accompanists yes. I think in general if a quality violinist not errs on proportion, keeps high shruthi suddham and not intrudes - three top qualities they will be always preferred by top artists. With respect to mrudangist one thing I notice after a stage , the senior accompanying artists take up their career and also start playing tAla vadhya concerts (nothing wrong with that), but what worries me they lose many a times pakkavadhya dharmam and when they continue to accompany main artists - their sensitivity becomes non elastic.

On a side note , is it just me who thinks - that the no of high quality accompanists(mrudangam and violin) is not proportionate to the count of high quality main artists. I dont think such a thing with ghatam or kanjira , quite frankly I am not able to observe that antakalathu vs intakalathu difference in these ghatam or kanjira artists(leave out few exceptions like Harishankar). OF course morsing has to survive too .

MY prayer is that there needs to be more quality violinists/mrudangam artists in line with the count of quality vocalists .

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 31 Dec 2012, 00:01

I'm not sure how objectively we can make these anda kAla-inda kAla comparisons based largely on anecdotes. So accompanists are being paid poorly now. They were then too. Some artistes then gave them a lot of space to play; some artistes now do as well. The milieu has changed too: there were fewer sabhas and concerts then, and many more now. There are many more musicians as a result too, and it is hard to make quantitative comparisons of the talent. If there were people then who attended concerts based on the accompanists, there are such people now too (e.g., yours truly, and there is a fair bit of evidence on the Kutcheris threads suggesting others do as well). How can we definitively say that accompanists are now less respected by main artistes, or that they are of poorer quality?

With the uniqueness issue, my contention is again: how can an accompanist now be unique? We always have our history behind us. The likes of LGJ and TNK and MSG innovated on pre-existing techniques and in so doing covered a large range of possibilities in articulating CM on the violin (The Parur school emphasises gliding between notes; Narayana Iyer prefers finger stops to mimic vINa gamakas; MC brought about viralaDi based on nAdaswaram; LGJ used a lot of variations in bowing azhuttam to mimic vocal vallinam-mellinam). Mysore brothers merged LGJ and MSG techniques to make a style that, while unique, does not strike me as an improvement on the originals. So if you're a violinist now in search of creating your own style, what do you do? It is not that they are incompetent today, but possibly that their task has become much harder because of the accomplishments of those who came before them. Do you see what I'm getting at?

And what is the impetus for such innovation today? TNK/LGJ/MSG innovated to keep up with the vocalists they accompanied, which from the recordings I've heard, their predecessors did not. Change was necessary, and they made it happen. Is there a vocalist or main artiste today who is not adequately accompanied? Is there then a need for a new technique? Evolution of vocal music necessitates the evolution of accompanying music.

With vocalists, there are myriad ways of distinguishing oneself - the types of ragas you take up, the compositions, even the paddathi, and unlike a violinist who acquires a technique, a vocalist is often born with a voice with unique and identifiable timber. At least on the surface, one can distinguish oneself better as a vocalist. But when you exhaust these options, you once again face the same struggle as every other musician in search of a real, defining identity. And how a musician manages that will largely determine whether he or she will leave footprints in the sands of time.

squims · Post by **squims** » 31 Dec 2012, 01:15

I definitely don't think that accompanying artistes have stopped drawing in crowds. I have myself attended several concerts just because of the accompanying artistes (even when I've had not fondness for the main artiste), or a particular team of artistes on the whole. For example, I would try my best to not miss a concert for which Mannargudi Easwaran mama (to name just one off the top of my head) is playing.
Remuneration for the accompanying artiste isn't something that I totally understand. On the occasions I've performed (vocal), I've been given the entire amount, which I've split 3 ways and paid the accompanying artistes. A friend recently performed at a venue though, where the organisers decided the pay for each of the artistes and he had no clue how much the other artistes got.
I feel we do have many 'giants' in the making. Wouldn't the accompanying of the likes of S Varadharajan, RKSK, Embar Kannan, Charulatha Ramanujam, H S Sudheendhra, Patri Satishkumar etc. be something we speak of for many years to come? I'm sure it will be.

P.S. I just remembered a case where a very close associate's mridangam guru was asked to play at a concert. The amount that was in the envelope turned out to be considerably lesser than the amount promised. But he is of a very mellow nature, and didn't argue with them. The money part of the carnatic music scene definitely baffles me.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 31 Dec 2012, 03:10

The amount that was in the envelope turned out to be considerably lesser than the amount promised

That is just simple dishonesty.

I have heard of different ways of finance being handled. At one end, it is like a business arrangement conducted by the main artist, including the sponsorship. More often than not, I observe individual envelopes being distributed to those on the stage: that is what I see, but I can't say I have ever really thought about it. On the few occasions that I have come to know how much the total expenses of putting on a concert were, I have thought it a rather small amount. This is why I took notice of one of the articles talking about 40,000 as payment for the main artist, because I think I know people who could present at least two whole concerts for that. Is it that the accompanists get paid the same amount whether the main artist is paid 5,000, 10,000 or 40,000? Is that fair?

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 31 Dec 2012, 06:15

Bilahari - sent you an email - did you get it?

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 31 Dec 2012, 07:31

squims wrote: I definitely don't think that accompanying artistes have stopped drawing in crowds. I have myself attended several concerts just because of the accompanying artistes (even when I've had not fondness for the main artiste), or a particular team of artistes on the whole.

I take the opposite tack.

I generally don't attend concerts where the accompanists have demonstrated through past behavior that they don't care about musical aesthetics, or pakkavadhya dharma of playing less than the main artiste.

Anybody who bangs his mridangam hard loses me forever. He can hold a talavadhya cutcheri and see how many people want to listen to him.

Same thing goes for violinists who go on and on in an alapana. They should hold a violin solo concert in the off-season just to learn how little they are valued by the audience. I said off-season so that they don't think that their audience was drawn away by other concerts.

I don't see why the audience have to put up with arrogant musicians who don't care for the audience.

I don't.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 31 Dec 2012, 07:51

it is sufficient to complete the picture of the ragam by playing the important phrases missed by the vocalist and highlighting the major phrases."

It is sufficient to do lesser than that even ....
http://www.mediafire.com/?41utk5zdhoua7g8

Ramasubramanian M.K · Post by **Ramasubramanian M.K** » 31 Dec 2012, 09:12

I agree with Harimau on the blasting of the mridangam--even the great PMI has always said it is only a Pakka Vadyam not a Pakkaaa Vadyam. Great violinists like TNK,Lalgudi,MSG, VVS orMC made their names as excellent,restrained accompanists and their brief alapana or swarams that followed the Vocalist was succinct and demonstrated their Vidwath even in the concise form. Each one of them also made their imaginations fly when they performed solo.

I like amongst the mridangists--Mannargudi Eswaran,J.Vaidyanathan,Arun Prakash but have difficulty with Bhakthavatsalam or Raja Rao--talented no doubt but seem to be eager to establish their credentials at every opportunity!! Amongst the violinists, RKSriramkumar,Varadarajan,Embar Kannan can be cited for their subdued and yet pleasant accompaniment.

squims · Post by **squims** » 31 Dec 2012, 11:43

I take the opposite tack.

I generally don't attend concerts where the accompanists have demonstrated through past behavior that they don't care about musical aesthetics, or pakkavadhya dharma of playing less than the main artiste.

Oh, that happens too. I avoid some accompanying artistes entirely, no matter who the main artiste is. But the point I'm trying to make is that, as rasikas, most of us are still able to appreciate/not appreciate the accompanists as separate entities, which is why we avoid some and go to the others.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 31 Dec 2012, 11:55

rajeshnat wrote:These two are indeed preferred by top vocalists, most of the time they are blocked. Not sure how you came to the conclusion that they are not preferred.

Maybe i can substantiate this to you in person. Not here.

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 31 Dec 2012, 11:55

bilahari wrote:I'm not sure how objectively we can make these anda kAla-inda kAla comparisons based largely on anecdotes

You can make out for yourself based on recordings too, if not on anectodes.

bilahari wrote: How can we definitively say that accompanists are now less respected by main artistes,

I have already cited couple of examples and there are tons of them, which i can say in person.

bilahari wrote: or that they are of poorer quality?

The question is not about "poor quality" or neither did i say that. Everyone plays to a "concert level standard", which is of playing to the point of what is correct and what is required. The underlying point of the original article is to highlight the absence of a "value addition" that the concert would have got/ lost because of certain accompanists' presence/ absence and also, whether the main artist is magnanimous enough to accept accompanists doing that.

Pls note that there is a very thin line of difference between "value addition" and being "adhiga prasangi".. ("adhiga prasangi" roughly translates to "over smartness").

Just for an example, i can just think about Lalgudi's playing for Alathur Bros' Sangeetha Kalanidhi concert ":: Their sankEErna naDai pallavi. The fact that is being spoken in awe by so many connoisseurs & artists alike, even after some 5 decades, is testimony to the kind of impact accompanists had.

I should also give a mrudangam example, failing which i will not be forgiven ]

Pls listen to TS' playing in the Lalgudi-Ramani duet concert held in the US (Perhaps VKV can tell us more on the venue/ date etc.. ) .The concert which had Ramnad Raghavan on the double mrudangam. If you listen to TS playing for "chakkanirAjA" esp in the pallavi and anupallavi, you can get a sense of what "value-addition" the whole article revolves about. And the kind of value-addition without disturbing/ dominating the main artiste. It would seem as if his mrudangam literally sang each and every swaram/ anu swaram and sangathi.

bilahari wrote: So if you're a violinist now in search of creating your own style, what do you do? It is not that they are incompetent today, but possibly that their task has become much harder because of the accomplishments of those who came before them. Do you see what I'm getting at?

And what is the impetus for such innovation today? TNK/LGJ/MSG innovated to keep up with the vocalists they accompanied, which from the recordings I've heard, their predecessors did not. Change was necessary, and they made it happen. Is there a vocalist or main artiste today who is not adequately accompanied? Is there then a need for a new technique? Evolution of vocal music necessitates the evolution of accompanying music.

The TNK-LGJ-MSG trio took the scene by storm even when the previous trio of Chowdiah-Papa-Rajamanickam Pillai was ruling the scene. Of course they could NOT have come up without a strong backing from the seniors, not to mention about the kind of pedigree that they posessed. A very senior respected Mrudangam vidwan/ critic/ guru once told me that the friendship between GNB & Rajamanickam Pillai got strained because of GNB's strong patronage towards LGJ. Quite a lot of times, the coverage the accompanists get also needs a mention. They sometimes shamelessly advertise as concert by SO-SO & party.

Today's violinists dont have the luxury of accompanying a wide spectrum of artists, which the trio of TNK-LGJ-MSG got to do, which in turn enhanced their techniques and gave room for evolution of their own music. But today's Violinists plays 8 out of their 10 concerts for certain artists alone.

Again it is highly imperative for us to understand that, the article stresses not on the quality/ neither did that question on the concert playing capabilities of the accompanists, but rather what we stand to lose/ gain as a result of their absence/ presence from the concert circuit. Every one is adequately accompanied, but the need of the hour is to ask the question that if today's accompanists are able to stamp and establish their own identity and that of their instrument without disturbing the main artist, an art which MOST of today's accompanists seem to lack.

PS Request assume honorifics before all the names.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 31 Dec 2012, 12:29

Quite a lot of times, the coverage the accompanists get also needs a mention. They sometimes shamelessly advertise as concert by SO-SO & party.

This point cannot be exaggerated, indeed! This is one of the important reasons why "who is Lalgudi accompanying today?" kind of things don't happen. If RKSK and Mannargudi Easwaran become "and party" for a concert, how will Squims even know that Easwaran mama is playing in town?

semmu86 · Post by **semmu86** » 31 Dec 2012, 12:45

srikant1987 wrote: This point cannot be exaggerated, indeed!

You missed my point. I told "sometimes" and not "everytime". And i found out that "sometimes" was some occasions, when some talented up-coming youngsters were the accompanists.

srikant1987 wrote:This is one of the important reasons why "who is Lalgudi accompanying today?" kind of things don't happen.

Again you misunderstood the whole point. This was to emphasize the "rasikatvam" people had towards the accompanists to such an extent that the accompanists got mentioned over the vocalists. The names i took up was just arbitrary. Am sure this was the case for other violinists too.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 31 Dec 2012, 13:29

semmu86 wrote: Quite a lot of times, the coverage the accompanists get also needs a mention. They sometimes shamelessly advertise as concert by SO-SO & party.

Barring say PMI and may be LGJ , I have seen lot of old cuttings where it was advertised main artist &party, where there are quality accepted accompanists playing.I think Many a times they put party , for the reason that only at the last hour the accompanists are fixed .or maybe there is a general real estate problem in the boards where it is difficult to name all of them . I think in the last few decades there is more people mentioning in detail about all artists then few decades before(which I have witnessed) or 50 years before.

semmu86 wrote:
Today's violinists donot have the luxury of accompanying a wide spectrum of artists, which the trio of TNK-LGJ-MSG got to do, which in turn enhanced their techniques and gave room for evolution of their own music. But today's Violinists plays 8 out of their 10 concerts for certain artists alone.

I think bottom line is every accompanists also looks for popular acceptance . When they latch a particular main artist who is drawing great crowd they stick to them, especially during season . Period . In particular in 1950's to 1968 you see MMI-LGJ combo and SSI-TNK combo.You trace wide spectrum of artists after you have collected a wider range of antakalathu mp3 records and extrapolate their 40+ years of career and gives a feel that artists have played a wide range of artists. That is some extent true nowadays too , even now wide range of accompanist- vocalist is happening if you take other than season, say the rest of the year and extrapolate over a period of atleast say 10 years .

There are exceptions to both of my points too..

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 31 Dec 2012, 15:26

Barring say PMI and may be LGJ , I have seen lot of old cuttings where it was advertised main artist &party, where there are quality accepted accompanists playing.

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cacm · Post by **cacm** » 31 Dec 2012, 20:23

VARSHA,
Irrespective lot this topic your above three notices are invaluable & precious. If others can send too I will be happy to put them in a CD in one place....VKV

balakk · Post by **balakk** » 31 Dec 2012, 21:16

Sorry for the OT digression, but just curious:
What was CM like under british rule? Did the british just look the other way, or did they support or discourage it in any form?
Did any of the CM artists sing/play patriotic songs? If yes, were they threatened?

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 31 Dec 2012, 22:01

Semmu, you are on a roll here. I fully agree and great examples to make your point as well.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Dec 2012, 22:09

The tone of the writings here looks like "some" Rasikas are ready to accept Pakka Vaadyams as second class citizens of CM. This is very unfortunate. A CM-Concert is a cooperative affair and each has a role to play for a happy consummation. Since the vocalist takes the lead, does not mean he/she is the Leader! While the Head is a vital organ the importance of Legs will be realized only when you get maimed. It is our duty to provide the highest appreciation to all the participants in a CM concert as otherwise CM wil be the Victim! Let us not play the game of "Giant and the Dwarf' to the detriment of future progress of CM!

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 31 Dec 2012, 22:36

I have often appreciated the 'value addition' of contemporary accompanists. I can immediately recall Mysore Nagaraj's accompaniment to Sanjay in a cArukEsi RTP at Vani Mahal some years ago, RKSK and JV accompanying Vijay Siva during a spectacular jambUpatE in San Diego, MA Sundaresan and Mannargudi Easwaran accompanying NSG at Parthasarathy Sabha two years ago... If we're quibbling about "most" and "many" and qualitative-bordering-on-arbitrary sweeping judgements of contemporary artistes based on hearsay and own listening experience, then it is an argument without any practical solution or middle ground.

Mind you, I'm not disagreeing with either the article or you because I really do not know firsthand the attitude of each contemporary vocalist to be able to cast them off wholesale as miserly, but I think we should be careful enough to acknowledge our own limitations and in judging others.

Unfortunately, the last five years I've spent in labs have both made me a slave to methodical rigour and filled me with a perennial paralysing sense of my gross ignorance about the world around me (and within me!).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 01 Jan 2013, 00:02

Varsha, those pictures are amazing. This way of documenting the history of CM can indeed go longer way back given printing is much older than photo and audio recording technology. Awesome! How far can we go back for such printed concert announcements and other such CM related timestamped snapshots.

balakk: Sorry for the OT digression, but just curious:
What was CM like under british rule? Did the british just look the other way, or did they support or discourage it in any form?

That is probably worth a separate thread, balakk. Start one and we will pick it up there. I am sure there are lots of material available given that the kingdoms of Mysore, Tanjore and Travancore were were under some kind of British protectorate. There are some references to (most probably) nadaswaram based CM in 1832 in Macaulay's memoirs ( though he is quite contemptuous of it, but that is a different matter ). We will pick all this up in a separate thread.

bilahari wrote: Unfortunately, the last five years I've spent in labs have both made me a slave to methodical rigour and filled me with a perennial paralyzing sense of my gross ignorance about the world around me (and within me!).

Hear, hear! A lot of times, it takes a while to get past the 'arguing the semantics' which is a necessary thing to see if the premise is correct and to what extent. In these matters several different points of views need to be hashed out to get a glimpse what was and what is, which is what is happening in this thread. Fascinating. Though those two newspaper articles started this conversation, a better feel for the truth can be found in this thread.

I am with you that it is a tough thing to maintain the illusion of high regard we automatically have for CM artists when one is involved in the turf level non-musical aspects ( human aspects ), especially when it comes to money, politics, favoritism, honesty etc. Time heals or hides all those things and hence I automatically assume that the past indeed looks prettier than what it actually was.

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 02 Jan 2013, 08:27

Helen Keller said
“I believe in the immortality of the soul because I have within me immortal longings”
http://www.mediafire.com/?cekb3np0zgbrbtm
One cannot disagree after listening to such giants .....And the longings need not be complicated too.
The power of the Indian note ... What would life be , without this scheme of music !!!!

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 02 Jan 2013, 10:04

What facility, what calm, what clarity! He was before my time, but his music is forever.
TNK/VR?

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 02 Jan 2013, 10:23

Varsha
In future when u make clippings please also put the name of the artist in that post itself?

varsha · Post by **varsha** » 02 Jan 2013, 12:25

In future when u make clippings please also put the name of the artist in that post itself?

While I still suffer such exotic earworms which haunt me for decades without a name.
How I wish I knew the name of this singer who brings to life ,a HMB Masterpiece
http://www.mediafire.com/?17raixbqbqznfs0

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Jan 2013, 21:54

VK,
I'm wondering. Don't we already have a thread where vkailasam has posted old notices like this? Is it the vintage photographs thread?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Jan 2013, 21:57

Oh, and as for the question "Where are the giants?", the answer is--they're still with us with the music they left behind.
And some of today's musicians? They are giants in the making

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 15 Jan 2013, 01:00

arasi wrote:VK,
I'm wondering. Don't we already have a thread where vkailasam has posted old notices like this? Is it the vintage photographs thread?

I looked for it but could not find it. I thought I can create a link from there to this picture post.
There is a thread of photographs of young musicians of the 1950s but that is not it.
If v'kailasam or someone else can find that thread, I will do that.

s_sriram72 · Post by **s_sriram72** » 15 Jan 2013, 11:22

It is a very sad part that the accompanists are under-paid. Accompanists, if they are genuinely considered as co-artists, will be remunerated appropriately. Going by the change in life, everyone goes for "contract" for everything. As such, concerts are booked with the main artist and the distribution amongst the artists is not known. It is the onerous responsibility of the main artist to do justice to his co-artists. Have also heard few instances of main artists handing over empty covers just before the start of the concert. Have also seen accompanists opting for marriage concerts, as they are more remunerating, though may not give them the satisfaction of performance.