vocal vs Instrumental

[KNV1955]

From what I have heard almost every popular carnatic instrumentalist wants to be a singer. Why? Is it because they feel they are unable to express themselves due to limitations of the instrument. Except for T. Viswanathan (Flute) ( he sang atleat 25% of the time in most of the concerts) & TN Krishnan ( more as an accompaniment) I cannot sit thro a full length Instrumental concert. If the instrumenatlist is gynastan & gifted like Lalgudi or Ravikiran or Shashank or Srinivas then you feel bad that he doesn't have the voice to sing. Thus the preferance for Vocalists in Carnatic Music over Instrumentalist. Arasi do you agree?

[Nick H]

nitpicking, perhaps, but I think Ravikiran has an excellent voice. He sang, on stage, before the instrumental. We get occasional chances to see him sing, and does feel like seeing the foundations to his chitraveena performance.

[arasi]

KNV,
As someone who loves words in a song--yes, a long instrumental concert can seem too long.

However, as you say, there are those golden exceptions to the rule. You named them! Add Mali's name too to the list. Again, since I'm partial to words, I enjoy the songs even more when I'm familiar with the lyrics.

Then again, even in a vocal concert where the words are not sung properly and they are sung with no feeling, I would rather listen to an instrumental concert, I guess

Nick,
Yes. Ravi Kiran takes the trouble to sing the lines here and there and also spells out the pallavi line. Instantly, you are made to feel as if you are familiar with what you hear.

[KNV1955]

Nick, Ravi Kiran could have trained his voice & become a vocalist with some limitations (range). But you ask all those Golden exceptions I named plus Mali as Arasi said (I have not heard him at all) they would say they are not blessed with a voice like Bhimsen Joshi!! & so they took to playing instrument. They are in that range!! Thani vazhi

[KNV1955]

My Grandfather Viswanatha Bhagavathar was a violinist. But he didn't want his son (KVN) to be side man & trained him to be a vocalist.What a Visionary!!!

[cmlover]

Instrumental music is not less of a CM just because there are no lyrics. If the player lets go his imagination
and elaborates a raga then s/he can transport you to divine ecstasy. For example the mridangist has no lyrics but his rhythm control
moves your heart (literally!). Can we say mridangam is not CM! Too much of lyrics had been the bane of CM. It is stupid for the instrumentalist to play lyrics which only a vocalist can do better but who could never reach the heights which only the instrmentalists can. While listening to the instrumentalist we should learn to appreciate the delineation of the raga than try to guess what composition it is! The Thillanas of LGJ are sheer ecstasy ignoring any lyric lines in them. We could ill afford to ignore the beauty of CM away from just the vocal performance..

[Nick H]

Yes. Ravi Kiran takes the trouble to sing the lines here and there and also spells out the pallavi line. Instantly, you are made to feel as if you are familiar with what you hear.

Quite a few instrumentalists will do this, and it can, indeed, leave one knowing why ...they are instrumentalists. On other occasions, it can make one wonder why they don't give vocal concerts.

I remember Ravikiran's quip, in a London lecdem quite a while back that he "retired from vocal performance at the age of 5."
Thankfully, he has not done so entirely, and I've seen him sing more than one complete concert.

I continue to be haunted by the astonishing musical beauty created by TNK and his daughter a few days ago. I can't imagine that he would rather have been singing!

The instrumentalist also has an advantage over the vocalist, in that he can (acoustics permitting, which they probably often don't) be a listener as well as a performer. Whilst the vocalist hears themself too, the inside voice is never the same as the outside. Remember MSG's smile, and, even more expressive, M Chandrasekaran. Somehow, too this sort of appreciation of the music while creating it seems more acceptable from an instrumentalist. If a vocalist pauses to say "Oh, wow!" to what they just sung, it seems vane. That is probably unfair.

[nadhasudha]

From what I have heard almost every popular carnatic instrumentalist wants to be a singer. Why? Is it because they feel they are unable to express themselves due to limitations of the instrument. ?

I think this is because of the lyric centric approach of carnatic music as practiced today. So it is the vocalist that is the center of attention in addition to better remuneration. Naturally instrumentalists gravitate towards vocal music to better their prospects.

If carnatic music concerts move more towards a raga/manodharmam centric approach then it will help shine the spotlight on so many of our talented instrumentalists. Some instrumentalists are already moving in that direction as in the raaga pravahaam concept of Ganesh/Kumaresh brothers.

[rshankar]

I think this is because of the lyric centric approach of carnatic music as practiced today. So it is the vocalist that is the center of attention in addition to better remuneration.

Well, it could also be because the Am jantA or Am rasika is not so evolved to appreciate mere music, and needs words ('spoken' or sung in melody) to move them. I certainly belong to this category - while I love many of the instrumetalists I listen to, and their music fills my senses, it takes the spoken (or should I say sung) word to uplift my spirit. While truly evolved rasikas (and musicians too) may feel the divinity invoked by just the music sans words, less evolved beings like myself need words to accomplish this...I do believe that Sri TMK and Smt. BJ have gone on record to say that there's divinity in a rAga by itself, without the need for devotional content in the lyrics or lyrics themselves to make a melody divine (I am sure I am paraphrasing what they said, but you get the idea, I am sure)...

[cmlover]

...but Shankar, the Am jantA appears to be quite capable of appreciating the present day cine music where lyrics (words) play no role at all. Again if HM and WM can do it why not CM? Mali and LGJ almost showed that instrumental music can survive indpendent of vocal music...

[varsha]

The act of composing is THE ORIGINAL WORK OF ART .
Everything else is an interpretation.

[uday_shankar]

Ravi,

Interesting perspective which is (of course!) different from mine. Some thoughts...

Prior to the Ariyakudi "format" of the the Katcheri, Carnatic music thrived in Katcheris where only a few kritis were rendered and most of the emphasis was on Ragam Tanam Pallavi which went on for hours. Would CM have lost a valuable rasika if you had been born in that era ? . Also, I am curious, are you able to derive enjoyment out of the improvisational parts of Hindustani music, like alaap followed by endless improvisation on a simple line of the bandish ? How about the "deeper" forms of HM like Dhrupad ? Can you listen to Bhimsen Joshi sing Abhogi forever ? In all these cases, the lyrics are superficial and merely a vehicle to transport the music across.

The point I am making is that even without going into "instrumental vs vocal", there's a LOT of vocal music with very little emphasis on the sAhitya. What is more interesting is that Indian music is the only form where vocal music based purely on sound exists. Everyone else can only sing words in some language when they open their mouths.

[Rsachi]

Uday, Ravi, Varsha,...
We resonate with classical music in my opinion by a mental process of identification. It can be a nebulous feeling, it can be a powerful imagery of scenes and situations, it can be a mood of words and thoughts. Like they say, all things are finally word-meanings to the human mind, as they are tagged during comprehension (Sanskrit padaartha for matter is 'word-meaning'!)

Whoever started singing lyrics to music just took the level from 1D to 2D. Maatu + Dhaatu is a powerful experience. Even in an RTP, we give importance to te pallavi line of words..instrumentalists sing it!

In CM, all instrumental efforts to eschew lyrics have still not gone away from ragas, talas or refrains etc. because they are also elements of tagging.

By encouraging only vocalists, by avoiding pure instrumental concerts, we are creating a big imbalance. I have enough data to know that good instrumentalists have a profound grasp of raga swarupa, microtones, Laya, etc. In addition instruments have beautiful tonal personalities. I therefore feel giving more importance and support to instrumental music will augur well for CM. Notwithstanding the Maatu+Dhaatu bit.

However much vocalists hog the limelight, they dare not perform without accompaniment or shruti from a real or virtual tambura!
Sachi R

[arasi]

So, we need (and like) both!

And yes, yes, yes, we need to go to more instrumental concerts (on my part, I try to). I also have to admit that I generally am more choosy about the instrumental concerts (TNK, Ravi Kiran, MSG and a few others on my list).
I do enjoy listening to western classical music, but operas are more exciting (even if they happen to be tragedies). Is it because they have words, some I can understand, a lot I cannot--even if the overhead translator is missing? Because operas are visually more appealing? I really can't figure it out.

[cmlover]

IMHO the words are indeed a distraction. At any rate there is nothing profound in the sahitya of the lyrics the same old " Lord, you did this; you dis that and now save me! etc.,'. I would rather listen to a lecture by Paramatananda than listen to such sahitya!
But if the sahitya is in a language that I do not "understand' then my Right brain does not seek help from the left asking for the meaning and interpretation and I can fully enjoy the joy of pure CM which is what Instrumental music "not based on a lyric" provides...

[Nick H]

I sit there in bliss... my wife sits there, not in bliss, telling me, "But he just sang [potted translation] over and over again." She doesn't have that problem in instrumental concerts.

[arasi]

"I sit there in bliss, my wife not in bliss, telling me, "But he sang..."

Nick,
It's almost as if you are talking to me now!

Folks who know Nick can understand what I mean. This is exactly how he talks! Quite lyrical, I'd say

[cmlover]

Arasi:
"KrishNA, KrishNA. muRAyE kEL nI "
Should be the refrain....

[arasi]

Nicholas, Nicholas, I know not why they sing
The same thing over and over and over again!

What sangathi is this--you calling them sangathis?
No new words but the same old thingummys?

[Nick H]

But I can remember Vedavalli singing Paramatma at the MA in December. Maybe that's my first word in becoming a lyricphile?

Mentioning this to my wife in a discussion about yoga, she said, "Oh! Does that word come in that song? I must listen again."

Maybe there's hope for all of us!

And the signs for the loos at MFAC are written in Tamil only, much to the consternation of a family of your fellow Bangalorites, who were finding it very hard to enjoy without understanding the words.

[varsha]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/de66gabfl54r1uc/bcJfjBZL37

Wonder what all this fuss about Instrumental versus Vocal is about.
I have been listening to these two tracks again and again .

One member of my family starts humming - Iha para gathi neene - as soon as MSG begins the krithi .
And such a beautiul krithi too.
Another one begs me to play the second track given here (played long long ago) once again .To complete the mood for the occasion .
Each better than the other .
RSachis summing up post says it all. So beautifully .

[Rsachi]

Varsha,
Thank you for the tracks - they are ideal for Sunday brunch.
Sachi R

[rshankar]

OK - I realize I am different, but then so be it!
Uday - I don't know the answer to your question about the days of pre-ARI CM, but hopefully can get out it by saying that I, like many others, am a product of my times, and if I had lived in those days, my sensibilities may well have been different!
With HM singers using the same line to improvise - now that's interesting - I feel that the lyrics (simple certainly) set up my appreciation of the music that follows - may be it is just pre-conditioning.
While the words may say the same thing and mean the same thing from kRti to kRti for the most part, I have to say that every aspect of the lyrics, pronunciation and intonation of the words engage me and my sensibilities. The preservation of the musicality while presenting a wonderful word-image is what really grips me.
What I mean by intonation is tough to explain, but will give a couple of examples - Smt. MSS' enunciation of the word 'smaraNam' in the phrase 'smaraNam madhuram' (from the madhurAshTakam), or for the phrase 'nAlu puram nOki' and the word 'nADi' in the line 'nAlu puram nOki, nADi nAn, yAr ingu vandadenrEn' (from the kRti mAlai pozhudinilE).

[venkatakailasam]

There have been many classical singers who have been technically flawless...exhibiting brilliant raga bhava superlative thanam singing

and bringing vidvat in pallavi singing and kalpana swaram.....and giving due respect to lyrics also...but, in my view an artist's brilliance can be assessed

only if he brings the Bakthi Bhava in his rendition...total 'atma nivedanam' ...total devotion.....surrender to the divine through music.

I have hardly come across this kind of "atma nivedanam" in any other artist except in MS amma who has no comparison....

An example....A composition from Thayamanavar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtKLYpV2Un8

Can this Bakthi Bhavam can be brought out in instruments.. I doubt..

[rajeshnat]

human voice is always the best instrument in many peoples opinion