Popular Music to Classical Music Crossover

[vasanthakokilam]

( thread split from http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=21273 )

One issue has been occupying my mind of late which can be quite productive if we can crack it. I do not want to go too much in detail in setting up the context or establish the relevance, hopefully it is clear from the discussion.

I have noticed a curious thing and I am sure many of you have too. Light/Film music concerts attract a wide cross section of people, some of whom can be "potential" classical music concert goers. At a recent fund raiser concert, people genuinely had a good time for 3 plus hours of film music in Hindi/Tamil/Telugu/Kannada/Malayalam. Of course, they all like some really fast paced and noisy songs since the excitement value is high but, the crux of my point, they enjoy classically based songs as well. For this purpose, I want to take two songs in particular.

1. Every instance 'Kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya' is played, the free wheeling traversal up and down the scale of Hamsanandi truly electrifies people and they go in to raptures when the singer accurately reproduces the song. See, that is a truly heartfelt appreciation of a raga sung more or less in a classical fashion. Majority of the people in the light music audience who love that song somehow do not translate that appreciation to a more classical context when a Hamsanandi based song is sung extremely well.

2. In a recent concert, a similar incident happened with a SPB song from a Telugu movie. I now forget the song ( it is not from Shankarabharanam but from a movie few decades back I think and supposedly quite famous ) but it was also one of those things where the sangathis ( if I can use that word for this ) are very classical and the traversal up and down the scale in a more or less classical fashion creates goosebumps for that audience. People went nuts when the singer accurately reproduced the song. Again, the same raga in a more classical concert, majority of these people would not be able to sit through.

The normal reaction among classical types is that this audience is the so called 'mass', may be a higher quality 'mass' if we want to be charitable. But that will be quite a constrained and restricted view. Talking of respect, it may even mean not truly respecting their appreciation of finer things since they do enjoy these classically based songs. But we also know they do not show up for classical concerts, they just can not sit through a full concert. It is too much for them. That aspect always was a curious thing for me. A good subset of these people do like classical raga based songs, they have a taste for it, they seek it out if offered in the right bottle, but they do not show up for classical concerts.

What is going on? There is a little ( sociological ) code to be cracked here.

[Nick H]

Keeping it simple, I think that Pop[ular] Music is popular, and that is actually all there is to it. You don't have to explore Western pop very far before you come across melodies stolen from great classical composers.

On the subject of respect, I remember getting into trouble with a friend in London for summing up my reaction to a certain musician as "wouldn't cross the road to see him again, even if it was free." That was disrespectful, apparently, if not to the guy himself, then to the truly great musical family which he had the misfortune to belong to. In reverse of the usual situation, he might have wanted to be an engineer, but the family business was music. Anyway, was I justified? i.) I didn't enjoy it. ii) a carnatic teacher told me he got his calculations all wrong. iii) a musician of African drums told me that his instruments were not tuned properly and he didn't play them well --- so, I had some expert confirmation that my reaction was correct, not just personal. And I'd paid for my ticket. I was a dissatisfied customer. And no, I still wouldn't cross the road to see him again. I have some human sympathy for someone who seemed to be a square peg in a round hole, but I keep the respect for musicians that play music, musically.

VK... the review of poor Sudha (whom I certainly respect) stands as a fact. It has led to a positive conversation on what fusion could actually accomplish, and artists who have accomplished it in the past. Reason to split the thread?

[vasanthakokilam]

Nick, not sure if your first paragraph addresses what I am talking about. If so, that is not quite it. I will elaborate more if needed.

>Reason to split the thread?
What are you referring to? The thread that Mahavishnu created? I think his reasoning is, he did not want that info to be buried in this thread.

[Rsachi]

VKM,
Why do people love Kuhoo Kuhoo and not classical Hamsanandi pieces?
Why do people like raga-based peppy film songs and not the same ragas in classical concerts?

It is not sociological but musical to my mind.

Film music appeal lies in five factors:
1. Madhyama or fast tempo with a clear rhythmic driver from the word go (established within a few sec)
2. melodious and obvious Sruti alignment and cooordinated, textured sound-no one distracts from another voice/instrument.
3. Pleasant voice
4. lyrics and context you immediately relate to...mostly also about romance and love with strong visual memories from the movie.
5. NO BORING BITS. Also no song exceeds the attention span of 5 minutes.

In classical music the raga section has no clear rhythm. It builds up slowly. MOST CLASSICAL musical voices will fail a movie audition test. No lyrical or emotional context or imagery that one can readily relate to. Many boring bits as the musicians build up. That they closely adhere to raga definitions doesn't score with listeners.

Bombay Jayashri's film song Zara Zara is sometimes mentioned as the BEST film song ever. Please listen to it and tell me if my analysis is correct!

[Rsachi]

Another link: http://www.hummaa.com/music/song/zara-zara/70265

[varsha]

Strange things happen to purists when they stray into fusion land , some times .
The Krishna nee begane baro by Rajesh Vaidya-veena / Sivaramakrishnan-sitar in an album called silver strings or something similar is one of the best interpretations of that song . Immaculate , very tasteful and has the spirit of the modern times . Beats most other versions to clichéd categories . Must be available on you tube or some other sites .
vk' s question needs an answer too .
Classical music was never about the masses , never about quickly hitting the bull's eye. Except for prodigies . I am fond of repeating my view that while one finds performers who are prodigies in every generations , One never gets to see a listener who is a prodigy at listening / appreciating at 4 or 5 years of age . It is this characteristic with the deeper end of the pool . Sudha R's performance and similar ones have to be seen in the light of sensitising new listeners . Very few artists appeal to the whole spectrum of listeners . The maestro , whose passing away we mourn now , was one such genius . Elsewhere in HM for instance , there has been a more gradual loss of purity . I know some elders who complain about the liberties taken by Bhimsen Joshi in particular and Kirana Gharana in general . That is the way the world moves . Forward

[Nick H]

Nick, not sure if your first paragraph addresses what I am talking about. If so, that is not quite it. I will elaborate more if needed.

I think it is the core of the matter: pop music is popular. Rsachi has elaborated that point of view with reasons why the fast-food musical diet is popular.

Somebody (Arasi?) said, on another thread, that there is actually no such thing as a tukkada, but it is all in the way that a song is presented. These words echoed in my mind while attending a concert that seemed to consist of nothing but tukkadas from beginning to end. Never mind who's concert, for now: suffice it to say that I was doing research inspired by Harimau ].

The music publishers of old had a test: if they could not hear a song just once and then hum or whistle the tune it meant instant rejection (I think this was the origin of "The Old Grey Whistle Test."). Take a recognisable and catchy melody, pep up the rhythm, add the horrible mass-produced sounds of keyboard, drum pad (electronic, not acoustic drum kit, of course!) and tabla played in a populist style, and, I suggest, almost any classical song can be turned into pop. Although it may be easier to start with one of the more "major-key" ragas, at that point I think there is no relevance in the fact that the music is actually raga based. One thing composers have to be good at is writing melodies: whether it be Mozart, Beethoven, Lennon or Tyagaraja, there is plenty of raw material for those who can't come up with their own.

Of course, yes, I am a music snob. But I suspect that I am far from the only one of those here But there have been superb "popular" arrangements of classical pieces and there will probably be more. Where this comes back to our genre and musical culture is in a point that I made earlier: an artist may be superb at composition in the sense of classical-concert manodharma, or they may be able to twist the calculations of any of the world's rhythms around (and with) their little fingers, but this does not necessarily mean they have the aptitude, knowledge or experience to compose or arrange in other genres.

>Reason to split the thread?
What are you referring to? The thread that Mahavishnu created? I think his reasoning is, he did not want that info to be buried in this thread.

No: I think Mahavishnu created a thread to spread awareness and discuss the better creations of "fusion" music. I was thinking in these terms: Not many people will come to a review thread unless they feel a reason to be interested in the artist/event under review. The conversation moved on considerably from that one event, but probably largely unseen by many members who might have contributions to make. Just my thought.

[mahavishnu]

The conversation moved on considerably from that one event, but probably largely unseen by many members who might have contributions to make. Just my thought.

Perhaps we could move #43 onwards to a new thread in "General Discussions" on what makes popular music popular?
I think there might be several approaches to that question as indicated by Varsha, Sachi and Nick.

[vasanthakokilam]

OK, split.

Nick, It is funny, I misunderstood 180 degrees 'Reason to split?', I thought you were against the split

I understand what you are saying. As I wrote, my point is slightly different, but all the points you made apply as well.

The title 'Popular Music to Classical Music Crossover' captures my intention better since it is not directly about why popular music is popular. but given the title that topic is fair game too. I agree these are all very related issues but I am trying to very narrowly focus on a particular audience sub-type.

I will profile this audience shortly as a way of defining them. We all know many such people, they are not strangers. It is just difficult to describe them in words.

I wrote this first in the Fusion thread, because I was thinking fusion, if done in a particular fashion, can peel off the subset of the audiences I am talking about. So fusion can be part of the discussion as well though the title does not explicitly mention 'Fusion'.

Sachi, that is a good list of things to think about for this audience sub-type, though I have to reinterpret them slightly. More on this later. That Bombay Jayasree song sounded great. I guess there is some 'studio production' laid on top of her voice, she sounded a bit different than her usual voice. Quite a catchy song.

I am still mulling over what Varsha wrote.

[vasanthakokilam]

Here is the profile of the type of audience I have in mind.

"Light/Film music concerts attract a wide cross section of people, some of whom can be "potential" classical music concert goers"

Without loss of generality, we will call this audience sub-type the 'Kuhukuhu bole koyaliya' people. KBK for short, so that we can say things like 'the KBKs are possibly fickle as well'

I wanted to keep the definition short and simple. I have edited my first post to include this definition as well since that intro was quite rough.

[mahavishnu]

VK: I like how you have situated and posed this question.

There are simpler mechanistic explanations such as stronger beat accents, more "groove", simpler melodic structure, less complexity in the sequences etc., but most of these don't hold water when it comes to a majority of Indian popular music.

My guess is that at least some part of the answer has to do with sociological factors, nostalgia/novelty and autobiographical saliency.

P.S: It is also interesting that you picked the hamsAnandi example. In a recent interview with Mano, TNS talked about how the compositional styles in hamsAnandi were so similar even between very different composers be it Ilayaraja or Muthiah bhagavatar.

[arasi]

That's why hamsAnandi has mostly been sung in the tulkkaDA part of concerts, though I must say, I've heard it as an RTP too!

Nick,
Perhaps it was me who said what you mention about thukkaDAs. Yes, take any royally treated main. The composer might have sung more verses--still, not more than eight lines (sometimes seven, the pallavi line being one!) are dealt with in detail for it to attain the status of a serious and long piece. Depends on the musician too--and his/her approach.
Of course, it's the emotional content of the line(s), the bhAvam (feelings) the lines (or neraval line) can evoke and the bhAvam the singer can communicate. In a movie song, they have the added advantage of the visual creating the mood. Even in a light music concert where the catchy movie songs are sung, the audience has the memory of the scenes from the movie.
So, the hook is emotional--of the moment and of memory (recent and of nostalgia).
In a concert where a singer tries to convey the feelings in a line by building it up with his own efforts (and feeling into it, of course), sometimes aided by able accompanists, in the popular field, it's much easier. With sweet sounding voices, a load of instruments at the ready, and with someone who can orchestrate it all. It's like the difference between a lone tiller of the land and the one who has the machinery to cultivate the land in a jiffy? I wonder...

[Nick H]

There is no reason why good music should not happen in any genre, and also, very serious music can be played on, for instance, electronic instruments. The whole progressive rock thing was about that --- and progressive rock was hated by most of the people who would have been buying top-ten pop. If it comes to that, top-ten pop can be good too.

Not dumbing down, not trying to prove anything, and high musical and asthetic values, as commented by CACM are key, and anything that fails in any of those departments fails as good music, whether it is trying to be pop, film, classical or whatever.

I misunderstood 180 degrees 'Reason to split?', I thought you were against the split

you misunderstood, like the barber today misunderstood "very short," and left me with a little pool of hair on the top of my head like a teenage monk. I'm available to be laughed at until it grows again ]

ps... even Sushi can't help me with 'Kuhukuhu bole koyaliya'

[vasanthakokilam]

Nick, that is funny. We want pictures!!

>ps... even Sushi can't help me with 'Kuhukuhu bole koyaliya'

Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t3YNCyNm6o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5fhgQxNi1M ( original telugu version )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHa71KRLXqY ( tamil version )

This is just our prototype song to characterize this audience sub-type, there are tons of other film songs that can be used to characterize this audience as well.

Which brings me to point out that this is about this audience sub-type and not necessarily playing classical songs in light music concerts, or singing lighter songs in classical concerts.

Hamsanandi may not be the first raga that a music director chooses for an immediately
attractive song that is based on a classical raga. That distinction probably goes to sivaranjani and darbari kanada.
So in a way Hamsanandi is a slight out-lier and in that sense an appropriate candidate to label this audience for our current purposes.

A sivaranjani varnam, a Hamsanandi Vinayaka song and a darbari kanada sub-main,
we got them Hook Line & Sinker for a lengthly Bhairavi Main and a Kambhoji RTP before letting them back in their thukkaDa comfort zone