Manohari.

Rāga related discussions
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Nandy
Posts: 191
Joined: 25 Jun 2006, 02:01

#1

Post by Nandy » 20 Feb 2007, 04:12

Hi everyone,

Ragam Manohari-

The ragam being the Janya of 22nd Melakartha- Kharaharapriya.
The aarohanam avarohanam being SGRGMPDS - SDPMGRS - Sadharna Gandharam, Chatusruthi rishabham, Suddha Madhyamam, Chatusruthi Dhaivatham, being a Ni varjya ragam.


One such song I do know is Paritapamu ganiyadina by thyagaraja, rupakam talam.

Incidently I came to know of quite a few aarohana and avarohana's for this ragam being :

Also as a 'r'i varjya ragam - S G M P D N S - S N D P M G S from Dr. Bhagyalakshmi's book Raagas in Carnatic music.

manOhari S G2 R2 G2 M1 P D2 S-S D2 D2 P M1 G2 R2 G2 S
manOhari S G2 R2 G2 M1 P D2 S-S D2 P M1 G2 R2 S
manOhari S G2 R2 G2 M1 P D2 S-S D2 P M1 G2 R2 S
manOhari S G2 R2 G2 M1 P D2 S-S N2 D2 M1 G2 R2 G2 S
manOhari S G2 R2 M1 P N2 S-S D2 P M1 G2 R2 S
manOhari S R2 G2 M1 P D2 S-S D2 P M1 G2 R2 S from karnatik.com

Can anyone throw light on the aarohanam avarohanams, raga bhava, dattu prayogas, raga sancharas and songs in this ragam.

Thanks.

Nandy.
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rganesh
Posts: 18
Joined: 06 Jan 2007, 23:56

#2

Post by rganesh » 24 Feb 2007, 19:31

The post prompted me to rummage through my collection and I heard the krithi (DKJ's rendition, with TR & Ramesh dated as 3/82) after a long time.

yAm petra Inbam....
http://file.uploadr.com/cd45

I remember in the early 70s I heard a AIR concert of BVR/BVL featuring ragas that ended with "Manohari" and my dad and I had a lively discussion thereafter on all the Manoharis. I recently came across a quiz in one of the web sites listing 11 Manoharis.
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vasanthakokilam
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#3

Post by vasanthakokilam » 25 Feb 2007, 04:31

I do not know the raga lakshana of manOhari, but when I first listened to the clip, Arabhi was the first thing that came to my mind.:rolleyes: :( Later on there were flashes of Karaharapriya on downward winding phrases.
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Nandy
Posts: 191
Joined: 25 Jun 2006, 02:01

#4

Post by Nandy » 25 Feb 2007, 07:22

Vasanthakokilam,

Yes Manohari is a rare ragam, it is something new, that is why it will be nice if somebody can give us a clue about this ragam.

Nandy.
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Nandy
Posts: 191
Joined: 25 Jun 2006, 02:01

#5

Post by Nandy » 26 Feb 2007, 02:16

rganesh,

Thank you for posting Paritapamu by DKJ. The same song by O.S. Thyagarajan :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHmIbxSJhZo

Can you type in the different 11 Manohari's. We can discuss them one by one in this thread.
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ramakriya
Posts: 1833
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#6

Post by ramakriya » 26 Feb 2007, 02:47

Well, this is what I can remember now

manohari
kamalA manOhari
mAdhava manOhari
guhamanOhari
gouri manOhari
ISa manOhari
saraswatI manOhari
jayamnOhari
ramAmanOhari

Falls short of the given number (11) -but may be good to start off`:)
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Suji Ram
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#7

Post by Suji Ram » 26 Feb 2007, 02:55

dEva manOhari
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Lakshman
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#8

Post by Lakshman » 26 Feb 2007, 03:05

The list has more than 11 items. Apart from what has been listed here are the others:
ambamanOhari, bhAvamanOhari, bhUpALamanOhari, budhamanOhari, dEshyamanOhari, dEvamanOhari, dharaNimanOhari, dhAtumanOhari, enAnkamanOhari, gandharvamanOhari, haramanOhari, jaganmanOhari, kandarpamanOhari, lalitamanOhari, mEcamanOhari, mukundamanOhari, nArAyaNamanOhari, nATyamanOhari, navamanOhari, puSpamanOhari, rAgamanOhari, rAjamanOhari, rangamanOhari, saumyamanOhari, sEnAmanOhari, shivAlayamanOhari, shivanamOhari, shrImAdhavamanOhari, shrImanOhari, shuddhamanOhari, sudhAmanOhari and vasntamanOhari.

Of course a mjority of these are not in current usage.
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vasanthakokilam
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#9

Post by vasanthakokilam » 26 Feb 2007, 03:09

ambamanOhari seems to be in vogue in HM ...

The quiz here http://www.carnatica.net/brainform1.htm states that there are 12 manOharis.
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Suji Ram
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#10

Post by Suji Ram » 26 Feb 2007, 03:30

vasanthakokilam wrote:ambamanOhari seems to be in vogue in HM ...

The quiz here http://www.carnatica.net/brainform1.htm states that there are 12 manOharis.
Thanks for the quiz site !
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rganesh
Posts: 18
Joined: 06 Jan 2007, 23:56

#11

Post by rganesh » 26 Feb 2007, 08:56

Some Manoharis…..

Dr S.Ramanathan’s rendition (MSG & TKM) of MD’s Krithi in Ishamanohari:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wpbszj

SSI’s rendition of MD’s Krithi – Madhava Manohari
http://www.sendspace.com/file/wvxtg0

TRS-MC-TVG Yagnadulu - Jayamanohari
http://www.sendspace.com/file/761k2c
Last edited by rganesh on 27 Feb 2007, 03:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Ashwin
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#12

Post by Ashwin » 26 Feb 2007, 21:04

tyAgarAjA's manOhari (paritApamu) and dIkShitar's manOhari (akin to kamalamanOhari - see SaNkaram abhirAmi) are entirely different - these dont seem to be two interpretations of one original rAga; rather, it seems that two different rAgA lineages coincidentally produced rAgAs of the same name. Corrections welcomed from the more knowledgeable members of the forum.

Ashwin
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Nandy
Posts: 191
Joined: 25 Jun 2006, 02:01

#13

Post by Nandy » 26 Feb 2007, 21:39

Ashwin,

As far as I know, Manohari by St. Thyagaraja is derived from Kharaharapriya mela. The different aarohanas and avarohanas being :

manOhari S G2 R2 G2 M1 P D2 S-S D2 D2 P M1 G2 R2 G2 S
manOhari S G2 R2 G2 M1 P D2 S-S D2 P M1 G2 R2 S
manOhari S G2 R2 G2 M1 P D2 S-S D2 P M1 G2 R2 S
manOhari S G2 R2 G2 M1 P D2 S-S N2 D2 M1 G2 R2 G2 S
manOhari S G2 R2 M1 P N2 S-S D2 P M1 G2 R2 S
manOhari S R2 G2 M1 P D2 S-S D2 P M1 G2 R2 S from karnatik.com

Although I seem to hear more of the S R2 G2 M1 P D2 S - S D2 P M1 G2 R2 S in DKJ's and OS. Thyagarajan's version of Paritaapamu posted here. Correct me if I am wrong.

Manohari by M. Dikshitar also called Kamalamanohari is derived from 33rd Mela Gangeyabhushani.

Aarohanam and avarohanam : S G3 M1 P N3 S - S N3 D1 P M1 G3 S.

Here is a flute recital by BN Suresh - Kanjadalaayadaakshi in Kamalamanohari.
http://www.sangeethapriya.org//Download ... resh2.html
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Nandy
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#14

Post by Nandy » 26 Feb 2007, 21:41

Thanks ramakriya :) and Lakshman for the list.
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knrh05
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#15

Post by knrh05 » 27 Feb 2007, 02:21

rganesh,
The MDR rendition is the Kedara kriti Samayamide nannu brova, not the Budha manohari kriti.

knrh05
rganesh wrote:Some Manoharis…..

Budha Manohari is attributed to HMB ; MDR’s rendition -
http://www.sendspace.com/file/6khpw3
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rganesh
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#16

Post by rganesh » 27 Feb 2007, 02:36

Knrh05,
Thanks for the clarification. My indexing is apparently wrong. Sorry I should have checked before posting it.
Ganesh
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ramakriya
Posts: 1833
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

#17

Post by ramakriya » 27 Feb 2007, 02:39

Ashwin wrote:tyAgarAjA's manOhari (paritApamu) and dIkShitar's manOhari (akin to kamalamanOhari - see SaNkaram abhirAmi) are entirely different - these dont seem to be two interpretations of one original rAga; rather, it seems that two different rAgA lineages coincidentally produced rAgAs of the same name. Corrections welcomed from the more knowledgeable members of the forum.

Ashwin
Given that Tyagaraja composed paritApamu on the last day of his life, (or somewhere around that time), the other (kamalA) manOahri might be the older rAga. Also MD has at several places indicated the rAga name from the other school when possible (eg: haimavatIm hariyuvatIm) - So he may have intentionally introduced the word kamalA in kanjadaLAyatAkShi.

-Ramakriya
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rganesh
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Joined: 06 Jan 2007, 23:56

#18

Post by rganesh » 27 Feb 2007, 03:12

Ashwin,

I remember in mid 90's , I attended a Lec-dem by Prof Visweswaran in Singapore on ragas of dual identity. He has released a CD on the same subject.

http://www.musicplusvideo.com/carninst9.html

I was not able to comprehend the intricacies then ( not sure if I will be able to do so now also) but I do remember and cherish a lovely Kanchadalaya Dakshi by the Vinika.
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Ashwin
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#19

Post by Ashwin » 27 Feb 2007, 04:28

Given that Tyagaraja composed paritApamu on the last day of his life, (or somewhere around that time), the other (kamalA) manOahri might be the older rAga. Also MD has at several places indicated the rAga name from the other school when possible (eg: haimavatIm hariyuvatIm) - So he may have intentionally introduced the word kamalA in kanjadaLAyatAkShi.

-Ramakriya
What is intriguing is that MD used the rAga mudra "kamalamanOhari" in kanjadaLAyatAkShi, but "manOharam" in SankaramabhirAmi. Does this suggest that there may be technical differences between MDs own interpretation of the two rAgAs?

Ashwin
Last edited by Ashwin on 27 Feb 2007, 04:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Ashwin
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#20

Post by Ashwin » 27 Feb 2007, 04:30

rganesh wrote:Ashwin,

I remember in mid 90's , I attended a Lec-dem by Prof Visweswaran in Singapore on ragas of dual identity. He has released a CD on the same subject.

http://www.musicplusvideo.com/carninst9.html

I was not able to comprehend the intricacies then ( not sure if I will be able to do so now also) but I do remember and cherish a lovely Kanchadalaya Dakshi by the Vinika.
Thanks rganesh, Im looking forward to getting my hands on this recording!

Ashwin
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ramakriya
Posts: 1833
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

#21

Post by ramakriya » 27 Feb 2007, 04:52

Ashwin wrote:
Given that Tyagaraja composed paritApamu on the last day of his life, (or somewhere around that time), the other (kamalA) manOahri might be the older rAga. Also MD has at several places indicated the rAga name from the other school when possible (eg: haimavatIm hariyuvatIm) - So he may have intentionally introduced the word kamalA in kanjadaLAyatAkShi.

-Ramakriya
What is intriguing is that MD used the rAga mudra "kamalamanOhari" in kanjadaLAyatAkShi, but "manOharam" in SankaramabhirAmi. Does this suggest that there may be technical differences between MDs own interpretation of the two rAgAs?

Ashwin
I dont think there was any difference between kamalAmanOhari of Tyagaraja and manOhari of MD (except that the latter is said to be a janya of gangAtarangiNi, while the first is normally described as a janya of mAyAmALavagouLa).

As per MD, the rAga name is only manOhari. He *may* have used the phrase kamalAmanOhari, because he was aware of Tyagaraja's school which called it kamalAmanOhari. Even here the mudre is tobe taken only as manOhari. The case is similar to the phrase sudhAtarngiNi in mAyE tvam yAhi, where the real mudre is only tarngiNi.

MD has not composed in Tyagaraja's manOhari.

-Ramakriya
Last edited by ramakriya on 27 Feb 2007, 04:53, edited 1 time in total.
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rganesh
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#22

Post by rganesh » 27 Feb 2007, 05:24

DKJ-TR-KM - Samyamidhe-Budhamanohari - HMB

http://www.sendspace.com/file/d47v3u
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Nandy
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#23

Post by Nandy » 28 Feb 2007, 22:41

Thanks rganesh for all the recordings posted.
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Nandy
Posts: 191
Joined: 25 Jun 2006, 02:01

#24

Post by Nandy » 28 Feb 2007, 22:45

The other songs in Manohari :

Varnams:
Sri kamalamba sada- adi- ramaswamy diskshithar
Samiga natho - adi - Ponayya Pillai

Krithi

Sathyame-adi-Periyaswami Thooran
Sankaramabhirami - M. Diskshithar
Kanjadalaayadakshi - M. Dikshithar

If anyone can get hold of any other songs in Manohari apart from the songs already posted here, it'll be great to get more knowlege of Manohari - Dikshithar school and Thyagaraja school as well.

Thanks,

Nandy.
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Nandy
Posts: 191
Joined: 25 Jun 2006, 02:01

#25

Post by Nandy » 28 Feb 2007, 22:50

Thanks rganesh for all the cliipings of different Manoharis.

Nandy.
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