A Question why suddha Prefix is added to some raagas

[gobilalitha]

Gopal Sury
There are many ragas which carry a prefix "Suddha" like suddha saveri for example. I am at a loss to understand, what makes the raga "suddham". What is the cleansing agent. can some one throw some light on this.? Is it addition of some swaras or deletion of some?
A question by a friend in FB
Mr.Lakshman may please explain

[Lakshman]

Gobilalitha: I am not knowledgeable enough to post a comment on this.

[VK RAMAN]

Hindolam is S G2 M1 D1 N2 S, S N2 D1 M1 G2 S

Varamu (sudha hindolam) is S G2 M1 D2 N2 S , S N2 D2 M1 G2 S

Difference is that hindolam has a smaller D (dha).

[arunk]

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion - based on one possible theory.

Disclaimer: This (nomenclature) is somewhat of a mess. I am not sure if there is consistency across the board, since names probably were arrived at various points of time, and the swara "classifications" (what is suddha vs. what is non-suddha) may have changed over time.

Lo…ng ago (prior to mela system, and more importantly before "sa" was always the tonic) Suddha swaras meant those in sadja grama, which probably* meant R2, G2, D2. (R1, D1 were probably not part of sadja grama). Many of the raga names themselves (i.e. not necessarily the structure albeit possible) predated the mela system i.e. we had raga names which are found in older texts. Thus you had some combos like Suddha-saveri, which use R2/D2, the "Suddha" swaras of olden times, instead of R1/D1 which figures in saveri. So such distinction could have its roots in the olden day nomenclature. Of course, you also have karnataka Suddhasaveri - which is actually s r1 m1 p d1 s/s d1 p m1 r1 s - i.e. a raga with Suddha in it, that uses the Suddha swaras of today (and not olden-days). I believe this is name was assigned later when R1/D1 become suddha-swaras as they are now. How/why this change? Thats a different story

Arun

* - there is no solid unambiguous evidence in olden texts, one has to interpret and arrive at underlying math to deduce they were R2, G2, D2.

[Ashwin]

I'd just like to add to arunk's post (and also disclaim that my ideas should not be taken as authority - please verify with someone more knowledgeable). Suddha may imply the "original" version of a rAga. Regional adoptions of rAgA-s and their natural evolution over time may have resulted in similar names being applied to increasingly dissimilar rAgA-s, and at the time of documentation, one would prevail (with very few lakShaNakArA-s documenting variations or etymology). When the original rAgA-s are naturally resurrected or re-encountered, a distinction in name would have to be applied, but one that would hint at the origins of the rAga (similar to the different prefixes applied to the names of major rAgA-s handled by different tribes or in different regions). Take for example, Suddha dhanyAsi, employing G2, M1, and N2. Modern day dhanyAsi employs these same svarA-s but also D1 and R1. On a side note, I was once told that the popular gItam, "AnalEkara" in suddhasAvEri was originally rendered in KarNATaka Suddha sAvEri with R1 and D1 - would appreciate if anyone can shed further light on this.

Ashwin

[ramakriya]

Coming to Rasikas page after a long while

*Generally* the term prefix shuddha gets added when a rAga starts to deviate from the previously defined lakshaNa, and then branches off to a new rAga. Shudda prefix then gets added to the "older" version. I say *generally* because it is easy to find exceptions for this

For example - Saveri at one point of time was pentatonic, and then when Ni and Ga started to keep creeping into it , traditionalists started calling the original version as "Shuddha Saveri" and the newer version as Saveri. Ditto with Shuddha Danyasi/Dhanyasi pair as well.

Interestingly enough, then the Ri and Da of this Shuddha sAveri started changing from D1-> D2 and R1-> R2, we ended up with a situation like during 1800s where Tyagaraja composed in Shuddha Saveri as a janya of mELa 28, while MD composed in Shuddha Saveri as a raga from mELa 1, and they called the same name to different rAgas.

Sometime later in the game, people took notice of this and started adding the prefix "karnATaka" (to indicate it's more traditional-ness) to Shuddha sAveri. Similar may be the case with Karnataka Kapi and Karnataka Behag etc as well.

-Ramakriya

[Rsachi]

While scholars deal with history and etymology of Shuddha raagas, let me give my layman analogy:

Shuddha thayir saadam - a preparation of warmish, creamy, pasty curd rice served with a modicum of salt.

Thayir saadam - a preparation of creamy curd rice served with added garnish of spluttered mustard seeds, coriander leaves, green chilly, cucumber,and salt.


Karnataka Shuddha thayir saadam - a preparation of creamy curd rice with pomegranate pods, roasted cashew, grapes and salt.

[Rsachi]

The ultimate coffee table book for foodies like me, cf. Pure Vegetarian by Prema Srinivasan:

[cacm]

Dear Rsachi,
YOU R MAKING ME HOME SICK! SIX INCHES OF snow outside my window when I look outside. I can try to imagine it to be Thayir Sadham like Charlie Chaplin did in Gold Rush; The common factor is it looks white but there the comparison ends.....VKV

[Rsachi]

Sir, I am sorry.
But I do believe you have vast resources at your command to summon up a lovely dish of Thayir sadam.

By the way, as you said, having a good cookery book on the coffee table helps me to browse and conjure up lovely visions of great dishes...
Shall I order a copy of this said book for you, sir!?

[narayan]

My contribution to the suddha debate.

* Raga suddha-x where there is an x, but where these seems to be very little connection. Suddha bangala
* Raga suddha-x where x does not seem to be sung at all. Suddha seemantini

[RaviSri]

Rsachi, is it TVS's Prema Srinivasan's book? What is the cost and where is it available? Has she given recipes for bisi bELE?

[cacm]

[quote="Rsachi"]Sir, I am sorry.
But I do believe you have vast resources at your command to summon up a lovely dish of Thayir sadam....Thanks for OVERESTIMATING my powers out of your kindness.

By the way, as you said, having a good cookery book on the coffee table helps me to browse and conjure up lovely visions of great dishes...LUCKY YOU!
Shall I order a copy of this said book for you, sir!?.... I have been BANNED by my wife in 1967 itself from entering the kitchen to cook. I am an EXPERIMENTAL COOK but she sticks to her family recipes from at least six generations! Thanks anyways...VKV #-o

[Rsachi]

RaviSri,
Yes! that is the book!
For once i know something more than you:-)
Please click the link in my post. You can buy it online much cheaper now than when I ordered.
Recipe for Bisibele Huli Anna recipe is on page 80.

(However many ladies around me claim to be the best in that department.)

[RaviSri]

For once i know something more than you:-)

Of course, you might know more than me in several subjects.

Recipe for Bisibele Huli Anna recipe is on page 80. (However many ladies around me claim to be the best in that department.)

I also know how to prepare bisibELE, but I am still looking for more varieties of the same dish as for other dishes too. I know the Mangalore BB as also the Mysore BB. Of course the ladies are the best in cooking and I know a couple of ladies in Bangalore to whom I won't hesitate to go with a big begging bowl for their BB. I specifically travelled to Bangalore once in 1995 (about 200km from where I live) to practically 'eat out of the hands' of one of these ladies in JP Nagar. She was very liberal with 'tuppA' to garnish her colourful BB.

BTW, the book by my standards seems very costly in keeping with the VIP status of the author. That's why I always fall back on 'Samaithu Paar' of Meenakshi Ammal in Tamil (now translated into several languages including English.

[rshankar]

translated into several languages including English.

Translated may be a tad too generous here, given what I know of the English version - transliteration is more like it...starting with the title - samaittu pAr = Cook and See. But pearls like this are actually scattered all through:
kalceTTi = stone vessel;
injiyai talaiyil aDikkavum (crush a piece of ginger) = hit the ginger on the head

I could go on, but we discussed this in an earlier thread where Sridhar had told us how he learned to cook using the tamizh version of samaittu pAr.

[Rsachi]

I will not list all the issues with the book here. Sufffice to say, it will stay a coffee table book,
and as such it has interesting contents on several subjects including traditional utensils.

The Samaittu Paar family lived in Mylapore and I saw the house and even later the literally translated Cook and See book displayed outside.

In my limited experience as an amateur enthusiast in the kitchen, one learns by keen observation, experimentation and a keen intuition while cooking for the best results. The best ingredient for any recipe is the love for the people who will eat the cooking. And women have THAT in ample measure. That's why they excel in the kitchen!

[keerthi]

Just curious,

How would you have translated kalceTTi?

[Rsachi]

Per Prema Srinivasan:
Kal Chatti: an open mouthed soap stone vessel for making kulambu and saambhar.

[rshankar]

How would you have translated kalceTTi?

An 'Indian crock pot', or a 'soap-stone crock pot' - the purpose of a kalceTTi/ka'ceTTi as I understand it from the 'Chief Scientific Officer' who runs our kitchen was slow and even cooking, which is accomplished by crock pots. 'Stone vessel' brings up images of something made out of granite, from an archeological site in Mohenjo'daro or Harappa...

[RaviSri]

I meant to write about this 'Cook and See', but left it at that. I consult only the Tamil original, and as Sachi says, the best way to learn cooking is, as one would learn music, from a guru, in the case of cooking, from one's mother, which is what I did. For certain recipes that I didn't learn from her, I consult this book.

There is a musical connection to this 'Samaithu Paar' book. Meenakshi Ammal lost her husband early. She did not have any means of livelihood. She had to bring up her children.

One of her male cousins asked her to write down all the recipes she knew. He got them published as a book and that was 'Samaithu Paar'. The rest is, as they say, history. The male cousin was none other than the famous lawyer and the second and the longest serving President of the Music Academy, K.V. Krishnaswamy Iyer.

[Rsachi]

Really. And I heard she was THE go-to person for all newly married ladies in Mylapore, who were trying to master the intricacies of cooking.