the points to be remembered while singing
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vijesh.r.c.
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pallavi.pr
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Hi,
Ok. Nimma native Mysorea? Sari.
The main points to remember while singing Carnatic music in particular are:
1) Bhava (Feeling)
2) Shruthi
3) Laya
4) Diction
5) Pulse of the audience
6) Interaction with the accompanists by way of acknowledging their effort while performing.
Not neccesarily in the same order.
Ok. Nimma native Mysorea? Sari.
The main points to remember while singing Carnatic music in particular are:
1) Bhava (Feeling)
2) Shruthi
3) Laya
4) Diction
5) Pulse of the audience
6) Interaction with the accompanists by way of acknowledging their effort while performing.
Not neccesarily in the same order.
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coolkarni
GADYAThe main points to remember while singing Carnatic music in particular are:
1) Bhava (Feeling)
2) Shruthi
3) Laya
4) Diction
5) Pulse of the audience
6) Interaction with the accompanists by way of acknowledging their effort while performing.
http://rapidshare.com/files/19682452/12 ... I.MP3.html
THALA BEKU THAKKA MELA BEKU --TRS
PADYA
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vasanthakokilam
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That is a nice list Pallavi..
My personal preference currently is: ( this has changed over time )
1) Shruthi
2) Proper rAgA expression.
3) More emphasis on musical aesthetics than intellectual exercises. ( Sowkyam )
4) Bhava (Feeling)
5) Laya ( the complicated aspects of it )
6) Diction, if the song is in a language I understand
7) Interaction with the accompanists by way of acknowledging their effort while performing.
8) Pulse of the audience
My personal preference currently is: ( this has changed over time )
1) Shruthi
2) Proper rAgA expression.
3) More emphasis on musical aesthetics than intellectual exercises. ( Sowkyam )
4) Bhava (Feeling)
5) Laya ( the complicated aspects of it )
6) Diction, if the song is in a language I understand
7) Interaction with the accompanists by way of acknowledging their effort while performing.
8) Pulse of the audience
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rajeshnat
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Most of the critical points are already added. I would add few more
9) passion - as stated by vijay.
10)sequence of rAgas is important.Too much of successive heaviness in rAgas may dampen the overall attention of the rasikas.
12)Tukkadas should be sung where it is restricted to at most 20 to 25 minutes of the concert time .
13) Understanding of pakkavadhyam artist capabilities,no point trying complicated or rapid fire or vilambakAlam in Neraval/Swarams/Pallavi if the pakkavadhyam artist cannot match the same.
14) End up with atleast one popular tukkadA where the uninitiated to partially initiated can atleast mentally hum and go home.
15) If the concert is from 6:30 pm to 9:00pm , for some reason if a sabha patron talks and garlands for 20 minutes , the artist should stretch the concert to 9:20pm. Singers should measure concerts in absolute time , not relative time.
16) The singer should preferably criticise privately the fellow artists ,that should not be heard by the rasikA.
17) manOdharmam in plenty, no set patterns in rAgamAliga viruttam/slokham/pallavi's.
18) Enthusiasm of a singer should be fairly uniform . Few artists generally give an impression after tani , that they divide the remaining time in slots of 5 minutes and sing exactly one tukkada for every 5 minutes of their remaining time . Would be nice if they do get engrossed even there.
9) passion - as stated by vijay.
10)sequence of rAgas is important.Too much of successive heaviness in rAgas may dampen the overall attention of the rasikas.
12)Tukkadas should be sung where it is restricted to at most 20 to 25 minutes of the concert time .
13) Understanding of pakkavadhyam artist capabilities,no point trying complicated or rapid fire or vilambakAlam in Neraval/Swarams/Pallavi if the pakkavadhyam artist cannot match the same.
14) End up with atleast one popular tukkadA where the uninitiated to partially initiated can atleast mentally hum and go home.
15) If the concert is from 6:30 pm to 9:00pm , for some reason if a sabha patron talks and garlands for 20 minutes , the artist should stretch the concert to 9:20pm. Singers should measure concerts in absolute time , not relative time.
16) The singer should preferably criticise privately the fellow artists ,that should not be heard by the rasikA.
17) manOdharmam in plenty, no set patterns in rAgamAliga viruttam/slokham/pallavi's.
18) Enthusiasm of a singer should be fairly uniform . Few artists generally give an impression after tani , that they divide the remaining time in slots of 5 minutes and sing exactly one tukkada for every 5 minutes of their remaining time . Would be nice if they do get engrossed even there.
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apasruthi
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I completely agree with the list Pallavi.pr has enlisted and Vasanthakokilam has enhanced.
Regarding Vijay's comments, I believe, they are more to do as a "pre-requisites" or hygiene factors (without which, there is a huge problem, but having these do not necessarily make a great concert). If one is not passionate about one's profession, specially a fine art like CM, better don't even step on to the stage and intelligence in my opinion, if it is about "the presence of mind" in the stage to improvise / or understand the whole situation and to adapt accordingly, or to improvise, then yes it can be considered partly under "pulse of audience" and "interaction with accompanists" (this quality infact applies more for the accompanists, as they have to closely follow the main artiste and then reproduce)- if it is about "manodharmam", then in my opinion it is again a pre-requisite, rather than a point to be remembered.
I would however add a few more points as attributes for a good artiste during his "performance" at the stage.
1. Medai Nirvaagam - This goes more than "understanding the pulse" or "interaction with accompanists" - it is about a holistic management of the Stage show - more to do with how well the artiste orchestrates the whole setting and presents it as a one harmonious unit of many different / unique personalities...
2. Tempo and timing - I have clubbed these since they are interlinked. The question of when to elaborate, and when to cut short and also to adjust the kaalapramaanam to keep the interest alive. I'm not talking about the rhythm here.
3. Mannerisms(Goshtis/Cheshatais) - Though sometimes this is debatable, I believe there is a sowkhyam aspect to this, if there is a conscious effort put in. When talking about Sowkhyam aspect of the mannerism, again I am tempted to remember KVN or DKJ or even Maharajapuram Santhanam with respect to this. I would rather choose to not mention the bad examples in this, specially among the contemporaries...
Apasruthi
Regarding Vijay's comments, I believe, they are more to do as a "pre-requisites" or hygiene factors (without which, there is a huge problem, but having these do not necessarily make a great concert). If one is not passionate about one's profession, specially a fine art like CM, better don't even step on to the stage and intelligence in my opinion, if it is about "the presence of mind" in the stage to improvise / or understand the whole situation and to adapt accordingly, or to improvise, then yes it can be considered partly under "pulse of audience" and "interaction with accompanists" (this quality infact applies more for the accompanists, as they have to closely follow the main artiste and then reproduce)- if it is about "manodharmam", then in my opinion it is again a pre-requisite, rather than a point to be remembered.
I would however add a few more points as attributes for a good artiste during his "performance" at the stage.
1. Medai Nirvaagam - This goes more than "understanding the pulse" or "interaction with accompanists" - it is about a holistic management of the Stage show - more to do with how well the artiste orchestrates the whole setting and presents it as a one harmonious unit of many different / unique personalities...
2. Tempo and timing - I have clubbed these since they are interlinked. The question of when to elaborate, and when to cut short and also to adjust the kaalapramaanam to keep the interest alive. I'm not talking about the rhythm here.
3. Mannerisms(Goshtis/Cheshatais) - Though sometimes this is debatable, I believe there is a sowkhyam aspect to this, if there is a conscious effort put in. When talking about Sowkhyam aspect of the mannerism, again I am tempted to remember KVN or DKJ or even Maharajapuram Santhanam with respect to this. I would rather choose to not mention the bad examples in this, specially among the contemporaries...
Apasruthi
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pallavi.pr
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rajeshnat
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Is bhAvam a feeling of a rasikA or an expression of the musician?vasanthakokilam wrote:4) Bhava (Feeling)
I certainly get lost with the word bhAvam .When I hear Musiri singing a neraval in mukhAri , I get only an emotive feeling in me. When I hear a rapid swaram of MMI in hindOlam (sAmajavara gamana), I get only gAnakaladhara's musical depth in swaram , but never get any emotive feeling .But when MDR sings the same hindOlam swaram, i get more emotive feeling,but less of musical depth(atleast when compared to mmi) .
So to me bhAvam is only an original expression of a musician? It cannot be equated with emotive feeling, depth or melody. BhAvam is everywhere in all the parameters that we are trying to define.Somehow I feel we can atomically define shruthi,layam,diction etc , but I am finding it impossible to define bhAvam, so the closest that I think of that is expression of a musician.
I get a very muddled feeling when people tell me this keyword bhAvam in CM. I am lost .Can some one atomically define bhAvam without overlap of other parameters?
p.s apologies in advance for repeating this bhAvam definition from my another post??
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pallavi.pr
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Its indeed a tacky thing...to define bhaavam...
When I asked a well known musician of today the same query, she said bhaavam is the feeling of bhakthi that we infuse from us into the song. She also said it cannot be forced upon in the rendition. It has to be natural. Its not necessarily being happy for a happy song or sad for a sad song as such.
Its all about having total involment in the song, and not rendering a krithi like a poem. I also came across the word passion in one of the threads. Yes bhavam inlcudes passion as well.
When I asked a well known musician of today the same query, she said bhaavam is the feeling of bhakthi that we infuse from us into the song. She also said it cannot be forced upon in the rendition. It has to be natural. Its not necessarily being happy for a happy song or sad for a sad song as such.
Its all about having total involment in the song, and not rendering a krithi like a poem. I also came across the word passion in one of the threads. Yes bhavam inlcudes passion as well.
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apasruthi
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Rajeshnat:
I can understand your predicament...let me try to give my understanding of BhAvam or BhAva rasam - The best meaning I could attribute to this word in the context of CM, is the "emotive appeal" in the rendition. It is not about the "physical" expression of the artiste as in Dance forms, where we define the Bhaavam in that sense, whereas it is about the expression of the Raga BhAvam (the melody or the tune) or the Sahitya BhAvam (the lyrical beauty) or the laya BhAvam (the rhythm) or the combination of all these, which evoke the right emotion that each item in CM is to evoke, within the artiste as well as the audience, while rendering it in the right way.
Until and less it is invoked within the artiste himself / herself - or until and less he or she "experiences" (anubhavam) this feeling within, they would fail to invoke the feeling for the listener. The beauty about our Music, is even without "seeing" the artiste perform (in person or live before us), this feeling or the emotion could be invoked in a listenr, just by hearing! and that too even from a pre-recorded device like a tape or CD. That is the magic it can create for a listener, if the singer has the right BhAvam..
The best way to illustrate this point is to make one hear some renditions like "Sumasaayaka" in Hindustani Kaapi by Shri KVN or his "Intha Sowkhaya" in Kaapi or "Varugalaamo" ... or the Kamalaamba Navaavarna kruthis by Shr DKJ or Shri MDR's "Karunimpa" in Sahana... the list is endless...
Apasruthi
I can understand your predicament...let me try to give my understanding of BhAvam or BhAva rasam - The best meaning I could attribute to this word in the context of CM, is the "emotive appeal" in the rendition. It is not about the "physical" expression of the artiste as in Dance forms, where we define the Bhaavam in that sense, whereas it is about the expression of the Raga BhAvam (the melody or the tune) or the Sahitya BhAvam (the lyrical beauty) or the laya BhAvam (the rhythm) or the combination of all these, which evoke the right emotion that each item in CM is to evoke, within the artiste as well as the audience, while rendering it in the right way.
Until and less it is invoked within the artiste himself / herself - or until and less he or she "experiences" (anubhavam) this feeling within, they would fail to invoke the feeling for the listener. The beauty about our Music, is even without "seeing" the artiste perform (in person or live before us), this feeling or the emotion could be invoked in a listenr, just by hearing! and that too even from a pre-recorded device like a tape or CD. That is the magic it can create for a listener, if the singer has the right BhAvam..
The best way to illustrate this point is to make one hear some renditions like "Sumasaayaka" in Hindustani Kaapi by Shri KVN or his "Intha Sowkhaya" in Kaapi or "Varugalaamo" ... or the Kamalaamba Navaavarna kruthis by Shr DKJ or Shri MDR's "Karunimpa" in Sahana... the list is endless...
Apasruthi
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mohan
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A listener's perception of music determines the way she appreciates it, the emotions she feels, etc. I might be moved by a rendition by TM Krishna but for someone else, there can be known one but TNS. Hence, it is true that it is very difficult to define bhAvam - what is bhAvam to one person maybe thookam to the next!
There is no way we can notate it and necessarily reproduce it. It depends on the situation - the voice or nAdham, the lyric, the tune, the rhythm, the preceding segment and infinate combinations of all these.
There is no way we can notate it and necessarily reproduce it. It depends on the situation - the voice or nAdham, the lyric, the tune, the rhythm, the preceding segment and infinate combinations of all these.
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baboosh
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pallavi.pr wrote:Its indeed a tacky thing...to define bhaavam...
Bhavam can be either sangeetha bhavam or sahitya bhavam.Sangeetha bhavam is mostly evoked by the rasa the ragam evokes.Sahithya bhavam is dependant on the meaning of the song.While sangeetha bhava dies down as soon as the music is over ,sahitya bhavam lingers in the mind.Hence it is considered superior to sangeetha bhavam
When I asked a well known musician of today the same query, she said bhaavam is the feeling of bhakthi that we infuse from us into the song. She also said it cannot be forced upon in the rendition. It has to be natural. Its not necessarily being happy for a happy song or sad for a sad song as such.
Its all about having total involment in the song, and not rendering a krithi like a poem. I also came across the word passion in one of the threads. Yes bhavam inlcudes passion as well.
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arasi
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All good points, folks.
BhAvam would become pAvam (poor) if the lyrics are ignored, if the musician is not involved in what he is presenting (lack of passion?), if layA overtakes the content of the kriti, if gymnastics have an upper hand and dissolve the words and the beauty of the rAgA, if accompanists ignore the vocalist's building up of a feeling filled rAgA, if there are distractions like fussing about mikes, looking frequently at the entry to see who all arrive...
Rajesh,
As difficult as it is to describe bhAvA, passion (deep involvement) and a zeal to please oneself as well as the rasikas, invariably produces bhAvA filled music. It is as it is in any profession--a commitment to work and to produce results--taking pride in it, and happily sharing it with the audience--giving a solid prformance.
Then it will happen: a positive and pleasant interaction between the performer and the listener...
BhAvam would become pAvam (poor) if the lyrics are ignored, if the musician is not involved in what he is presenting (lack of passion?), if layA overtakes the content of the kriti, if gymnastics have an upper hand and dissolve the words and the beauty of the rAgA, if accompanists ignore the vocalist's building up of a feeling filled rAgA, if there are distractions like fussing about mikes, looking frequently at the entry to see who all arrive...
Rajesh,
As difficult as it is to describe bhAvA, passion (deep involvement) and a zeal to please oneself as well as the rasikas, invariably produces bhAvA filled music. It is as it is in any profession--a commitment to work and to produce results--taking pride in it, and happily sharing it with the audience--giving a solid prformance.
Then it will happen: a positive and pleasant interaction between the performer and the listener...
Last edited by arasi on 07 Mar 2007, 21:53, edited 1 time in total.
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jayaram
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I once attended a kutcheri of a senior vocalist. The quality of the music was simply incredible, and I was literally dissolved in it. However, at one stage I felt something amiss, as if the music level had gone down a notch. I looked up, and noticed the artiste had been distracted, and was looking at his watch.
This (the heightened state) is what a zen master may call being in 'satori'. When a musician is in that state where he/she and the music have merged to become one, then the sensitive rasika also experiences that 'aha!' feeling. To me this is bhavam of the highest order.
By the way, something similar can be experienced with some people's cooking - the food that's prepared is full of bhavam. But then, I suppose that's another topic...
This (the heightened state) is what a zen master may call being in 'satori'. When a musician is in that state where he/she and the music have merged to become one, then the sensitive rasika also experiences that 'aha!' feeling. To me this is bhavam of the highest order.
By the way, something similar can be experienced with some people's cooking - the food that's prepared is full of bhavam. But then, I suppose that's another topic...
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arunk
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I fully agree with mohan.
IMO, the way we use the word bhAvam is not really the artist's expression but actually our perception/impression/evaluation of it. Many of the other factors mentioned here can also be treated like it, but perhaps bhAvam is most influenced by our perceptions. As mohan said, a friend may rave about a certain rendition as "soulful", and you/I may find it just pedestrian. Both are true - that it moved your friend and that it didnt move you an inch - but both are just perceptions. Can we then always attribute the determining factor for bhAva to the same source (i.e. musician's expression), even if it has contradictory effects?
To me, it seems that judging bhAvam is sort of like judging how an actor played a certain (emotive) role in a movie. It is subjective - in some cases there would be better general agreement (good or bad), but even there i would dare wager it would not be universal.
I am not of course saying that everyone's music legend to beginner is at same level etc. and it is all really our doing. I am saying just that music is mostly our experience and so it doesnt always follow logical rules. For example, in more than one case, I have found a particular rendition (CD/tape) absolutely soulful when i heard it some time, but then some other day the same one didnt have any deep effect on me!
Arun
IMO, the way we use the word bhAvam is not really the artist's expression but actually our perception/impression/evaluation of it. Many of the other factors mentioned here can also be treated like it, but perhaps bhAvam is most influenced by our perceptions. As mohan said, a friend may rave about a certain rendition as "soulful", and you/I may find it just pedestrian. Both are true - that it moved your friend and that it didnt move you an inch - but both are just perceptions. Can we then always attribute the determining factor for bhAva to the same source (i.e. musician's expression), even if it has contradictory effects?
To me, it seems that judging bhAvam is sort of like judging how an actor played a certain (emotive) role in a movie. It is subjective - in some cases there would be better general agreement (good or bad), but even there i would dare wager it would not be universal.
I am not of course saying that everyone's music legend to beginner is at same level etc. and it is all really our doing
. I am saying just that music is mostly our experience and so it doesnt always follow logical rules. For example, in more than one case, I have found a particular rendition (CD/tape) absolutely soulful when i heard it some time, but then some other day the same one didnt have any deep effect on me! Arun
Last edited by arunk on 07 Mar 2007, 22:14, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
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Yes, Arun, there isn't much logic about it all. Yes, our perception also colors our opinions. However, 'pedestrian fare ' is another thing (unless we are blind folded fans of a certain performer, or parents of 'child prodigies'!). Pedestrian fare is easily recognized among rasikAs. It is among the good ones that we seem to differ in our opinions--our perception coloring our views...
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arunk
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I do agree arasi but what is good vs not good isnt always clearcut either - even for the cases where you/I may think it must be clearcut. How many times have we seen/read ready dismissals of very popular, and top artists' music as "pedestrian"? How many times have that dismissals also included dismissals of the sections of appreciative crowd at that artists' concert? Isnt this sort of an established tradition in CM reviews ? (not pointing at rasikas.org reviews here!)
Take any professional artist (say a bit seasoned as opposed to a true beginner in the profession) whose music you really do not like, and think "how could any love this?". It is of course not uncommon, and a given that many many people love that artist's music. Now of course all of us will then have the tendency to conclude that such people really dont have good taste or really dont know what "real music" is etc. etc. But IMHO, it is just example of us finding justifications to bolster the usually unshakable presumption that our instinct (and hence our conclusions based on it) must be right. In fact, i will wager that many of those people whose tastes also we may tend to think of it in bad light would also love the music of our favorite soulful musicians.
Arun
? (not pointing at rasikas.org reviews here!)Take any professional artist (say a bit seasoned as opposed to a true beginner in the profession) whose music you really do not like, and think "how could any love this?". It is of course not uncommon, and a given that many many people love that artist's music. Now of course all of us will then have the tendency to conclude that such people really dont have good taste or really dont know what "real music" is etc. etc. But IMHO, it is just example of us finding justifications to bolster the usually unshakable presumption that our instinct (and hence our conclusions based on it) must be right. In fact, i will wager that many of those people whose tastes also we may tend to think of it in bad light would also love the music of our favorite soulful musicians.
Arun
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apasruthi
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Arun:
A small correction to your earlier post on agreeing with Mohan's views. BhAvam is not the listener's perception/or impression of the music as you have mentioned. It is the expression of an emotion that item or rendition can generate in the listener's mind. Better put, it is the "experiencing" of that emotion - which is a true feeling the listener has and not a perception or an impression.
If you read Mohan's wordings clearly, it says "the listener's perception may determine the BhAvam", which maybe true - as in the case of die-hard fans or dogmatic opposers in some cases, but the perception itself is not the BhAvam. BhAvam is the true expression of the music.
Arasi - I totally agree with your statement - "However, 'pedestrian fare ' is another thing (unless we are blind folded fans of a certain performer, or parents of 'child prodigies'!). Pedestrian fare is easily recognized among rasikAs. It is among the good ones that we seem to differ in our opinions--our perception coloring our views..." Well said...
Jayaram - Again a very important point you mentioned taking a cue from the Zen philosophy. What an artiste does on the stage which breaks the satori. This is part of the "Medai Nirvaagam" (Stage Management) which I mentioned earlier.
Finally, one good illustration I can bring from the movies about the importance of BhAvam v/s Vidwat is the episode in "Thiruvilayadal" (of the 60's not now with Sivaji Ganesan) where T R Mahalingam (Banapathirar) - who had the BhAvam in his "Isai Thamizh nee seytha" v/s the Vidwat of Balayya - the visiting Vidwan's "Oru Naal Podumaa" and finally Lord Shiva coming to the rescue of Baanapathirar thru " Paattum naaney, BhAvamum naaney"....
Disclaimer: This is in no way to prove that BhAvam is more important than Vidwat or vice-versa. Let us not start a debate on that. I just mentioned this to illustrate the point of BhAvam through an example from a movie which atleast some of us can relate to.
Apasruthi
A small correction to your earlier post on agreeing with Mohan's views. BhAvam is not the listener's perception/or impression of the music as you have mentioned. It is the expression of an emotion that item or rendition can generate in the listener's mind. Better put, it is the "experiencing" of that emotion - which is a true feeling the listener has and not a perception or an impression.
If you read Mohan's wordings clearly, it says "the listener's perception may determine the BhAvam", which maybe true - as in the case of die-hard fans or dogmatic opposers in some cases, but the perception itself is not the BhAvam. BhAvam is the true expression of the music.
Arasi - I totally agree with your statement - "However, 'pedestrian fare ' is another thing (unless we are blind folded fans of a certain performer, or parents of 'child prodigies'!). Pedestrian fare is easily recognized among rasikAs. It is among the good ones that we seem to differ in our opinions--our perception coloring our views..." Well said...
Jayaram - Again a very important point you mentioned taking a cue from the Zen philosophy. What an artiste does on the stage which breaks the satori. This is part of the "Medai Nirvaagam" (Stage Management) which I mentioned earlier.
Finally, one good illustration I can bring from the movies about the importance of BhAvam v/s Vidwat is the episode in "Thiruvilayadal" (of the 60's not now with Sivaji Ganesan) where T R Mahalingam (Banapathirar) - who had the BhAvam in his "Isai Thamizh nee seytha" v/s the Vidwat of Balayya - the visiting Vidwan's "Oru Naal Podumaa" and finally Lord Shiva coming to the rescue of Baanapathirar thru " Paattum naaney, BhAvamum naaney"....
Disclaimer: This is in no way to prove that BhAvam is more important than Vidwat or vice-versa. Let us not start a debate on that. I just mentioned this to illustrate the point of BhAvam through an example from a movie which atleast some of us can relate to.
Apasruthi
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arunk
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Wouldnt/shouldnt this apply more to the person who is singing with bhAvam as opposed to the person who is listening and judging whether that someone is singing with bhAvam?apasruthi wrote:A small correction to your earlier post on agreeing with Mohan's views. BhAvam is not the listener's perception/or impression of the music as you have mentioned. It is the expression of an emotion that item or rendition can generate in the listener's mind. Better put, it is the "experiencing" of that emotion - which is a true feeling the listener has and not a perception or an impression.
When you sing with bhAvam - it is of course a feeling/experience. But when you say someone is singing with bhAvam or not, arent you making a conclusion based on your perception of that persons expression - is it not? Of course if as a listener you also feel that bhAvam and get more deeply involved in the music, it is no longer just purely perceptive and maybe you mean that.
Arun
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jayaram
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Bhavam is truly an 'experiencing', as apasruthi puts it. It happens in the moment, which is why if you go back and listen to a recording of a concert you attended, you may not get the same feeling. The artiste and rasika really need to be in a state of union for this to happen. Which again is why different people come away with different experiences of the same concert. (Imagine a tone deaf person sitting thru a lovely rendition of a Todi by a GNB - he would be stiff bored!)
And words by themselves are not required for bhavam to happen - an MDR caressing a note can be bhavam-laden. But the listener needs to be ready to receive the gift...
Don't cast pearls infront of pigs, as the wise ones tell us...
And words by themselves are not required for bhavam to happen - an MDR caressing a note can be bhavam-laden. But the listener needs to be ready to receive the gift...
Don't cast pearls infront of pigs, as the wise ones tell us...
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arunk
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Good points jayaram. Perception is indeed feeling - not cold logic as i implied.jayaram wrote:The artiste and rasika really need to be in a state of union for this to happen.
...
And words by themselves are not required for bhavam to happen - an MDR caressing a note can be bhavam-laden. But the listener needs to be ready to receive the gift...
But about this reverse example - you get zero bhAva from an artist you deem as pedestrian, but the rasika in the next row is in a trance?
So my point is we think - nay presume, we are usually ever-ready to receive this gift, and we know a good gift from a bad one. Hence, when we do not receive it, we presume that the artist is not offering anything worthwhile
. Also, when we think we got a marvelous gift, but someone else does not think so for that same music, we tend to think they do not know what a true gift it. To give an example, as much as i adore MDR for the precise reasons discussed here, i know many folks who do not think his music is that special, and but they get this wonderful feeling from others' music. But some of those I think can be made to agree that MDR sings with bhAva (in spite of "feeling" none/much of it themselves).Arun
Last edited by arunk on 08 Mar 2007, 23:07, edited 1 time in total.
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apasruthi
- Posts: 68
- Joined: 08 Jan 2007, 14:12
arun / jayaram:
You both are right in a way. The main subject here was the points to be remembered while singing, where a particular point called BhAvam got discussed more intently, due to its subtletly. Unlike the other parameters, BhAvam is the most difficult to comprehend or explain, but easy to experience, when it happens....Its like a mirage, you can see it is there, yet if you try to get closer and comprehend more, it vanishes! You have to stay still, wherever you are if you want to keep seeing it.. It is so momentary, at times as Jayaram mentioned...
And, as Mohan put it, the perception of the listener can determine the BhAvam.
For example, if I'm pre-determined in my mind or prejudiced about an artiste, it can to certain extent affect the experiencing, either way. However, when a singer sings with the right BhAvam, an appreciative listener of CM can recognise it, if he or she has an open mind, because it touches the listeners' soul as well...
Another interesting feature about BhAvam is, even a musical illeterate can experience it, unlike Vidwat or Manodharmam, which require some amount of evolving even for a listener, before appreciating it.
So to simply put it, BhAvam has got more to do with the Heart, than with the Head.., hence more difficult to explain by cognisance...
As the famous scientist Pascal said- "Heart has its reason, that reason knows not"
Apasruthi
You both are right in a way. The main subject here was the points to be remembered while singing, where a particular point called BhAvam got discussed more intently, due to its subtletly. Unlike the other parameters, BhAvam is the most difficult to comprehend or explain, but easy to experience, when it happens....Its like a mirage, you can see it is there, yet if you try to get closer and comprehend more, it vanishes! You have to stay still, wherever you are if you want to keep seeing it.. It is so momentary, at times as Jayaram mentioned...
And, as Mohan put it, the perception of the listener can determine the BhAvam.
For example, if I'm pre-determined in my mind or prejudiced about an artiste, it can to certain extent affect the experiencing, either way. However, when a singer sings with the right BhAvam, an appreciative listener of CM can recognise it, if he or she has an open mind, because it touches the listeners' soul as well...
Another interesting feature about BhAvam is, even a musical illeterate can experience it, unlike Vidwat or Manodharmam, which require some amount of evolving even for a listener, before appreciating it.
So to simply put it, BhAvam has got more to do with the Heart, than with the Head.., hence more difficult to explain by cognisance...
As the famous scientist Pascal said- "Heart has its reason, that reason knows not"
Apasruthi
Last edited by apasruthi on 09 Mar 2007, 10:08, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Apasruthi,
You said, "bhAvam is the most difficult thing to comprehend or explain, but easy to experience when it happens."
"when a singer sings with the right bhAvam, an appreciative listener can recocnize it, if he or she has an open mind, because it touches the listener's soul."
I totally agree. Yes, bhAvam cannot be easily discussed like the other aspects of music. Yes, beautiful rAga playing can bring out bhavA, but words make it more meaningful. For those who think words are not that necessary, I ask them about the ways in which they play with a child, express their love for someone and so on. Won't they resort to words to express themselves better than with mere gestures?
You said, "bhAvam is the most difficult thing to comprehend or explain, but easy to experience when it happens."
"when a singer sings with the right bhAvam, an appreciative listener can recocnize it, if he or she has an open mind, because it touches the listener's soul."
I totally agree. Yes, bhAvam cannot be easily discussed like the other aspects of music. Yes, beautiful rAga playing can bring out bhavA, but words make it more meaningful. For those who think words are not that necessary, I ask them about the ways in which they play with a child, express their love for someone and so on. Won't they resort to words to express themselves better than with mere gestures?
Last edited by arasi on 09 Mar 2007, 11:46, edited 1 time in total.
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apasruthi
- Posts: 68
- Joined: 08 Jan 2007, 14:12
Arasi, I agree with you on the point of words to enhance BhAvam. This is why I explained in my earlier post about the three BhAvams - the raaga BhAvam (the melody or tune), the Saahity BhAvam (the lyrical beuty) and the laya BhAvam. The combination definitely enhances the total BhAvam of the piece than just any one of them. It is synergistic - the whole is more than the sum of the parts!
I think what Jayaram's point on words were that, they are not necessarily required to bring the BhAvam, and that is true only with respect to the rAga BhAvam, where each rAga is elaborated through its AlApana...Ofcourse melody or rAga BhAvam is necessary, but it may not be sufficient, to bring the complete BhAvam till the lyrics and the layam catch up with it in the following rendition of the kruthi, to make it more enjoyable. Then we get to feel the complete BhAvam..
Apasruthi
Apasruthi
I think what Jayaram's point on words were that, they are not necessarily required to bring the BhAvam, and that is true only with respect to the rAga BhAvam, where each rAga is elaborated through its AlApana...Ofcourse melody or rAga BhAvam is necessary, but it may not be sufficient, to bring the complete BhAvam till the lyrics and the layam catch up with it in the following rendition of the kruthi, to make it more enjoyable. Then we get to feel the complete BhAvam..
Apasruthi
Apasruthi