The Future of CM

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Jan 2014, 08:24

I like to speculate on how CM will survive in the Future and the changes that may take place. Call it my dream or even wishful thinking though I may not live to hear some of them. I invite you all to join in my quest. Let your imagination fly wild, mount your hobby horses and gallop! First let there be no rancour in these discussions! We all have the freedom to think and dream our own way and if there is any difference of opinion let those be expressed in a dignified way! Enough introduction!

First about CM Ragas. Mathematically the number of ragas even under the conventional framework is very large indeed. Manambuchavadi Venkatasubbier (the relative and sishya) of Thyagaraja once stated that T had completely exhausted all the melodies in conventional ragas and there is nothing new to be discovered. This is onlya partial truth. Even among the conventional ragas the veterans (Alathur/GNB/MMI/LGJ/Mali...)have discovered hidden melodies and brought it out from time to time. For just an example TNR the nadaswara chakravarthy who elaborated Todi non stop for eight hours showed new prayogams not visualized by T. I am sure our accomplished youngsters like Abhishek/bharat/sriranjaniNSG ... could bring to light new melodic phrase we have never heard of! I envisage the support of computers which can churn out millions of phrases and some artificial intelligence (to be developed by our IT geniuses) in future (and our vaggeyakaras devloping appropriate lyrics...) that will enrich our known ragas beyond our current level of imagination! I just pause...

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 25 Jan 2014, 11:10

CM will influence Hindustani music so their vocal music will guide pakkavadyam; CM impact will be seen in Western music and many of the ragams will find its impact on western music.

satyabalu · Post by **satyabalu** » 25 Jan 2014, 18:51

Nice thought.

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 25 Jan 2014, 19:32

CM lover said "I envisage the support of computers which can churn out millions of phrases and some artificial intelligence (to be developed by our IT geniuses) in future (and our vaggeyakaras developing appropriate lyrics...) that will enrich our known ragas beyond our current level of imagination! "No sir I hope it will not happen. Already CM is suffering with excesses & uncontrolled imagination. [-x

KNV

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 25 Jan 2014, 20:25

If humans can do it why not machines. It is hardly 60 years in their evolutionary history! Already APP developers are looking for ideas. None of them are CM versatile. But a healthy cooperation from accomplished CM performer with a wizard Indian IT guy can create wonders. Generating phrase is no problem. Building in Gamakas require ingenuity. The bottleneck in the MIDI instruments is solvable. Just wait for some time. If there was money in it , it would have been done yesterday!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Jan 2014, 06:46

VKR is quite right! The cross-pollination is needed both-wise.
HM has got "misra' ragas where phrases from other ragas are introduced melodically into another major raga. This would be a violation according to CM grammar. But there is no valid reason why it should be so. In genetics we talk about "hybrid vigour" which is equally true in other areas. The popularity of the old Hindi movie songs were primarily due to such hybridization! It is of course like walking on the knife edge; but the old veteran playback singers did it with poise. Many of those cine-tunes also found their way in Tamil/Telugu movies as well, which were immensely popular then, as well as now (among us seniors!).

Breaking a law is good if it will enhance the quality of the original product!
(We would never have gotten Steel were it not for the experimental cross contamination (alloying) in the first place...)

ARI was the first one to experiment humorously with "Sankarabharananai azhaithodi vaadi kalyani Darbarukku" (catur raga maalikai) but there were little follow-up among the other veterans who were still quite conservative. The (late) Santanam was a master of such plays which endeared him to the public. There are sporadic attempts even now but Rasikas are not showing much support because the quality is not great. It should be attempted by only those who have a perfect "raga control" and the lyric is enticing...

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 26 Jan 2014, 07:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE39Z15 ... ture=share - here is a Rabindranath Tagore song which he wrote after listening to Muttuswamy Dikishitar song: Meenakshi Mudam Dehi in Poorvi Kalyani. This Bengali song is tuned in Poorvi Kalyani raagam.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Jan 2014, 07:32

Thanks VKR. Very nice melodious rendition. The purvikalyani (MD's meenaakshi..) is quite evident.
But this is not pure "purvikalyani" by CM standards! Both the madhymams (M1 and M2) are used and also
the nishadam does appear in the arohaNam. My point is exactly that such renditions should be tolerated and
embraced by CM to enrich our music. We have a lot to learn from Rabindra sangeetham...

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 26 Jan 2014, 10:25

M lover I appreciate your liberal thinking. But there is a problem when it comes to aping or mixing or alloying (whatever you may like to call) other styles by the practitioners of CM. To give an example Dhanammal school of singing is a lot different from Ariyakudi . But when used in right measure in a concert it enhances the quality of the concert. I heard a vocal jugalbandhi of HM & CM couple of years back The CM artist was only trying to prove that he can also vocalise the way HM artist was doing. Thankfully HM did not reciprocate & was his own self. Infact I almost felt like going on stage & sing some of those beautiful typical phrases of the raga. Graha Bhedam or Sruti Bhedam or swara Bhedam requires extreme care in handling. Quite frequently it becomes a messy off key singing affair.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Jan 2014, 05:04

Let us see how far we can stretch this and see how many of you will go that far.

Consider this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDLKLLKJowY

My contention is, those people who have adverse negative reaction to this piece by Late Sri. KV may do that mainly because of its cine origin. But imagine, prior to that, someone like Mali played this as an Indian folk song in the thukkada section. I do not see why it would not have been accepted. Mali had played such songs regularly in his concerts, sometimes kavadi chindhu and sometimes in 100% folk manner. This song in Darmavathi could have been an item like that with only small modifications.

I wonder if it would be acceptable today

To soul search on this, set aside what you know about this movie song and listen to it on its own merits. It sounds like a perfectly fine folk song to me. One does not have to play it with that much ebullience ( only KV can pull that off

). For vocal singing, I want to see if someone can put alternate lyrics and change the melody bare minimum so it will be readily accepted at Mylapore sabhas with enthusiastic applause.

OK, that is probably way too much baggage to ask people to put aside.

But instead, compose a song in a much slower place, in a different raga ( for some reason mangalakaisiki comes to my mind ) but to exactly the same internal laya. would that work? ( the rhythmic structure of the song is quite attractive ).

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Jan 2014, 08:36

Beautiful response VK!
KV was a master of such innovations. His Vishnu sahasranamam was a masterpiece.
Of course there were folks who adored him and those who hated him intensely.
His knowledge and skill in CM was unquestionable however.
The public loved him in the same way they adored Santhanam.
In the 30's of the last century CM was just "Trinity Music".
We have come a long way. When GNB introduced Swara Bhedam there was resistance from the establishment but it is
common place today. According to strict CM grammar the AdhAra swaram should never be changed!
When SSI sang fast swaras (Electric SSI in those days) the establishment laughed though the public loved it.
Same was thecase when MS started singing in Tamil. Even ARI was resistant until he finally accepted it.
His own concert paddhati still rules the roost though some attemts are made to shake the roots!
HMB was a laughing-stock according to ARI but now he is a highly venerated Vaggeyakar as was indeed PS.
Even KVN was never a clone of ARI in spite of his Guru bhakti.
CM is changing and we have to accept it. We can compromise if the word CM is copyright to call the later developments MCM
(modfied CM).
But here we are talking about the Future...
If Newtonian Physics was immutable we would have rejected Einstein and thrown the baby with the bath water.
Even Einstenian Physics is now being challenged.
Shouldn't we change with times and face the Brave New Future?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 27 Jan 2014, 08:54

R & G sisters by singing abhangs as part of CM concert are helping the future cause of CM. We all should pleasantly accept abhangs as part of CM.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 27 Jan 2014, 11:14

And don't forget MS who introduced Bhajans very early in CM which won her national recognition.
Actually T himself was only a Bhajans leader.....

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 27 Jan 2014, 20:48

Trichur Brothers are now introducing Ashtapadhi as part of their concerts. Trichur brothers exposure to Sampradaya Bhajans influences them to bring innovation in CM Concerts IMHO. They also seem to break the untold rule of 2 hours concert.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Feb 2014, 02:51

computers still long way, but ...

http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/human_insp ... erated.mp3

This was human inspired but 100% computer generated albeit the base sample is a flat note (D), played presumably by a human on a guitar.

So computer there is trying to ape the human. The question is - is this style gayaki enough

?

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 03 Feb 2014, 06:56

One small step for a CMCS (CM (knowing) computer specialist) a giant leap for CCM (computerized CM) !!!
Bravo!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Feb 2014, 08:06

Incredible how much you have achieved on the gamakam front, especially with a difficult piece like this one. This is taking the bull by the horn indeed. Great effort. The synthesis brings out the signature raga bhava quite well.
There is that ease and flow in the charanam refrain which is quite indistinguishable to my ears from how a CM musician/professional would play.

Congratulations.

( To surface this outside of this topic, I have linked to your post from the kAnaDA thread of the Raga section )

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 03 Feb 2014, 09:07

Arun,
My morning started with your super work. Thanks! It's ushering in a day to look forward to. Have to play it to my grandsons...

AmAm, not once did you pause for Sruti kUTTudal. Wonder why

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 03 Feb 2014, 10:59

KNV1955 wrote:
"No sir I hope it will not happen. Already CM is suffering with excesses & uncontrolled imagination. [-x

KNV

"No sir I hope it will not happen. Already CM is suffering with Abhishek Raghuram. [-x

FTFY.

)

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 03 Feb 2014, 17:38

thanks cml, vk and arasi.

arasi -

Arun

KNV1955 · Post by **KNV1955** » 03 Feb 2014, 18:18

Harmau

I know who you are & my identity is known to everyone. Why this Narada work? [-x

KNV

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Feb 2014, 07:54

The contribution of Arun (post# 3308) is epoch making and should be appreciated and encouraged by all CM enthusiasts interested in the Future of CM. It is the Gateway for the realistic interaction of Humans with the Computer. There is still a lot of work to be done which requires many heads. All computer savvy CM Lovers should collaborate with Arun to complete the project.
Call this the Manhatton Project for the glory of CM. There may not be great financial rewards here as is common in any intellectual CM ventures. But then there is the heart-felt blessings of us (Rasikas).

I am sure CM Future will gratefully acknowledge the efforts of Arun and his Team.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Feb 2014, 08:19

I was thinking about a few other benefits of Arun's program as well. One conclusion I came to was a bit counter intuitive but i think it is right. While perfect synthesis is a great achievement, not so perfect ones afford a learning experience for musicians, musicologits. students and interested rasikas.

Let us say, a good quorum of rasikas feel that a particular phrase sequence is not quite right in spite of the swara sequence being right along with the implemented gamakas. A careful investigation of those few things can shed light into all those amorphous discussions about a note being a bit sharp and a bit flat in such a raga etc. and they can be given a better form and definition. It can also tell us how micro tonal our music system actually is ( in flat note prayogas ) or it is all mostly about contours of swara execution in transition and oscillation.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 04 Feb 2014, 10:50

Gamakam is the life of CM. Kudos to Arun for capturing and modelling its essence!
It is a commendable achievement. Now one can experiment with new Gamaka prayogams...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Feb 2014, 17:49

thanks vk and cml. So far I can think of value mainly in instructional field but that also means that the standard of synthesis/reproduction must be close to flawless. There are a few factors involved that can make such an effort fall short:

(a) the phrase itself isn't modeled 100% correctly - this perhaps would be the biggest culprit a it would stick out like a sore thumb. There are places in the above sample - where I know more tweaking is needed in places.

(b) while it is programmed right, the synthesis introduces digital artifacts that make it sound odd/artificial as well as deficient. This also can be common and this also is there in above sample. In fact in general with the current technique I am using, there is too much extraneous "noise" although most of that component is masked because tampura sort of drowns it. It is not as bad for low-pitch instruments like the case above, but it is worse for higher pitch (violin and flute). I have to find a way to improve this.

(c) Even without digital artifacts, the synthesis still falls short because it does not fully capture the dynamics of the underlying instrument. There are many reasons for this but I think in general it is more subtle to be discernible to layman but would be obvious to a practitioner of the real instrument - but there would be places it might be obvious to most.

A little bit later, I will post samples of the same melody being played by a "Radel veena" (the above was really guitar whose sound was processed to sound a bit like radel veena - this one is based on a real radel veena sample), "flute" and a "violin". A heads up: as hinted in #b above, "flute" I think is the worst because the factor in #b is most magnified for it - but a practitioner of the veena/flute may not be as charitable to the respective instrument versions!

I do not know the dynamics of either flute of violin (so my perspective is layman) but e.g for the violin, there are places where it sounds quite real, and there are many places where it sounds artificial to me.

But I would think most people here would not care a rat's behind about all this, and understandably since even if a computer can create an authentic melody, on its own it doesn't offer any tangible value to most people. The task then is to see how something like this can be built upon to offer value.

But perhaps there is also a unwarranted FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) factor that somehow if a computer can create carnatic music (i.e. on its own - NOT like the above sample where I had to give it specific instructions to create a very specific melody that was rendered by a human), the music becomes "less special", "less mystical". After all how many times have we heard someone (btw, i have said this too albeit not recently

) boast to others: [-x Unlike your western, xyz and abc genres music, there is no way you can play/create carnatic music on THAT instrument/thing - it is way too special and subtle for that

"

Arun

uday_shankar · Post by **uday_shankar** » 04 Feb 2014, 19:18

Superb work Arun. The modeling is excellent. Don't look back ! This is pioneering effort at computer modeling of Carnatic music.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Feb 2014, 21:49

Thanks Uday!

The same melody by different "instruments":

http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/kanada_var ... eena_E.mp3 (Veena - E Sruthi )
http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/kanada_varnam_radel_E.mp3 (Radel Veena - E sruthi)
http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/kanada_varnam_violin_E.mp3 (Violin - E sruthi)
http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/kanada_varnam_flute_D.mp3 (Flute - D sruthi)

Thanks
Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 04 Feb 2014, 21:53

And perhaps to get some blood boiling, here is one played by Carlos Santanamuni

http://arunk.freepgs.com/tmp/kanada_hyde.mp3

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 05 Feb 2014, 01:40

The regular veena is quite good. The algorithm is perfect at all places except at the "pluck" where it is a bit sharp. Perhaps a good filter (or averaging) can
smoothen it. The Radel is almost good but has more bass undertones. The gamakams are coming off nicely in both cases.
The violin is below par and the artificiality is patent. It has however a failing grade.
The flute is terrible (sahikkalai

There is a quiver that destroys the music.
Better hide the Hyde

Perhaps all these problems are solvable with some effort. You are on the right track.
Try human voice. I suggest Janaki's "singara vElanE.." crooning...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 05 Feb 2014, 20:58

yep - best results are with guitar or guitar-like string instruments (like veena). The acoustic veena base sample was a quickly concocted one (where i used a guitar-pick to strike

) - a better one (where attack isnt strong) may yield some improvement. The radel has many tone settings - this was recorded long ago on someone else's. Again a more balanced base sample may yield improvement. But unless some randomization is done w.r.t attack, all strokes would be identical leading to a robotic and thus artificial feel. This is point (3) in my earlier post.

I thought violin was fair

- there were portions where I thought it sounded like a real violin (the base sample here also wasnt perfect because it was a short sample and I had to use some digital techniques to stretch it), but there are places (particularly very beginning itself) where it sounds very artificial. But I think violin is a complicated beast with different bowing techniques all affecting timbre (particularly attack).

Flute has been (somewhat surprisingly) a struggle. The fact it is high pitch exposes faults in gamaka modelling + synthesis a lot I think. Also for the limits of tara stayi ( near p'), you see sound is very distorted compared to original.

Vocal I would bet would be horrendous.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 06 Feb 2014, 01:34

I am sure "monophonic" voices like S Janaki will do fine.
Post an experimental one. Let us see...
Is it a logic problem or programming problem.
Can we brainstorm?

Try also chitrravenu piece in collaboration with Uday..

rasikas.org

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