Places selected for Neraval in compositions ?

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 26 Mar 2007, 06:53

Invariably, neraval is selected at charanam.

Why is this ?? Can't the neraval be attractive @ Pallavi / Anupallavi ?

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 26 Mar 2007, 08:34

Neraval can certainly be done anywhere where in the krithi. The meaning of the words should be looked at. There are many examples of this.

Neduneri Krishnamurthy sings neraval for rAma nee samanAmevaru (kharaharapriya) at the pallavi instead of the charanam and has said the meaning of the pallavi is better for neraval than the charanam "paluku paluku laku thene"

In Sri subramanyAya namaste (kAmbhoji) the popular point for neraval is at vAsavAdi (from the anupallavi) but GNB uses "tapatraya" (from the charanam). GNB also uses "sumathi thyagaraja" for neraval in nidhichala (kalyAni) instead of the usual mamathA bhandana. Both are from the charanam.

For marivere (lathAngi) Trichur Ramachandran does neraval on the pallavi line.

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 26 Mar 2007, 10:35

Smt MS sings neraval for sogasuga mridanga tALamU at the pallavi.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 26 Mar 2007, 10:41

neraval can be done anywhere in the kriti.

some famous anupallavi neravals, that i can think off right now:

nIla nIrada sarIra dhIradhara in bAlagOpAla
anupamIta kamalA vAsE dEvi in janani mAmava
srI pancanadIsvaruni rANivai in nI pAdamulanu
sannutinci srI rAma sanru talacavE manasA in ennagAnu rAma bhajana

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 26 Mar 2007, 10:43

some pallavis which can be exploited for neraval, but never done..

evarimATa vinnAvO rAvO
rAvE himgirikumAri kanci kAmAkshi
pAlincu kAmAkshi pAvani pApasamaNi

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 26 Mar 2007, 10:57

bharat, the last one ... palincu ... I have heard sung as a RTP.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 26 Mar 2007, 11:01

mohan wrote:bharat, the last one ... palincu ... I have heard sung as a RTP.

really? very possible!
personally i find the pallavi line lot more nice to do neraval than the half line 'kAntamaku' which is usually used!

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 26 Mar 2007, 13:50

Nedunuri Garu, while singing pAlinCu kAmAkshi, sings the almost-never-heard mudra charaNam and then sings niraval at 'rAjamukhi SyAmakrishNanuta kAnCIpurEshwari' which seems, to me, more appropriate and engaging than 'kAntamaku'.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 26 Mar 2007, 14:01

prashant wrote:Nedunuri Garu, while singing pAlinCu kAmAkshi, sings the almost-never-heard mudra charaNam and then sings niraval at 'rAjamukhi SyAmakrishNanuta kAnCIpurEshwari' which seems, to me, more appropriate and engaging than 'kAntamaku'.

I am told Vijay Siva did the same at some recent concert of his...

Jigyaasa · Post by **Jigyaasa** » 26 Mar 2007, 16:06

Yes... It was at the Brahma Gana Sabha during the Dec season. His accompanists were Lalgudi Vijayalakshmi and J.Vaidyanathan.

annapoorne · Post by **annapoorne** » 26 Mar 2007, 17:43

I have heard the pallavi "LokavanaChathura" of Thyagaraja in Begada being taken for neraval .

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 26 Mar 2007, 19:52

prashant wrote:Nedunuri Garu, while singing pAlinCu kAmAkshi, sings the almost-never-heard mudra charaNam and then sings niraval at 'rAjamukhi SyAmakrishNanuta kAnCIpurEshwari' which seems, to me, more appropriate and engaging than 'kAntamaku'.

Prashant, I dont think I've heard this... more than likely, I already dowloaded this concert from somewhere and haven't listened to it yet. Which one(s) does he sing this in?

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 26 Mar 2007, 23:58

prashant wrote:Nedunuri Garu, while singing pAlinCu kAmAkshi, sings the almost-never-heard mudra charaNam and then sings niraval at 'rAjamukhi SyAmakrishNanuta kAnCIpurEshwari' which seems, to me, more appropriate and engaging than 'kAntamaku'.

If you have the recodring can you share it here?

ravi2006 · Post by **ravi2006** » 27 Mar 2007, 01:26

Speaking of neraval for pallavi lines - Musiri used to do neraval for the 2nd line of the pallavi of Janani Ninnuvina in ritigoula -"Dikkevvaramma jagamulona gana".

Of course, there were also those pallavis that were so good for neraval that they were transformed into Pallavis (ie in the RTP sense) eg Ganalola (Todi,Baluswami Diksitar), Mahima teliya tarama (Sankarabharanam, Anai-Ayya).

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 27 Mar 2007, 02:44

ravi2006 wrote:Of course, there were also those pallavis that were so good for neraval that they were transformed into Pallavis (ie in the RTP sense) eg Ganalola (Todi,Baluswami Diksitar), Mahima teliya tarama (Sankarabharanam, Anai-Ayya).

For the record, these pallavis above are actually older than the kritis mentioned. These pallavi lines were so popular that some composers picked them up and used them as pallavis for their compositions.

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 27 Mar 2007, 13:41

My references indicate otherwise:

1. The tamil script edition of the Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini of Sri. Subbarama Dikshitar written by S. Ramanathan & B. Rajam Iyer under the supervision of T.L Venkatarama Iyer, Mudicondan C. Venkatarama Iyer and Dr. V. Raghavan (1961) Part - I, pp.46-47
The introduction to the kriti merely states "inda keertanam sri naarada maharishi payril Muthuswami Dikshitarudaiya sahodararum vaadyamum vaaipaattum sErnda sirinda vainikarumana Chinnaswami Dikshitaraal seiyyapattadu"
The pallavi of the kriti is given as "gaana lola karunaala vaala bhaagavata sheela maam paripaalaya"; in the pallavi (RTP) version it is truncated to "gaana lola karunaala vaala"

2. The compositions of Anai-Ayya compiled by T. Sankaran & T. Viswanathan, edited by Dr. Karikudi S. Subramaniam, published by Brhaddhvani (1990) Madras, pp.72-73
The pallavi of the kriti is given as "mahima teliya tarama nee mahini nee krupaavisesha" and extols Goddess Dharmasamvardhini; the pallavi (RTP) version is, however, rendered as "mahima teliya tarama raama"
Undoubtedly the Anai-Ayya brothers excelled in manodharma sangita. As asthana vidwans of Serfoji Maharaja of thanjavur (~1850), they were among august company of the likes of Todi Sitaaramaiyya, Sankarabharanam Narasaiyya, Rettai pallavi Sitaaramaiyyar...

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 27 Mar 2007, 22:27

another pallavi line very fitting for neraval...

bhakti bikshamiyyavE bhAvukamani sAtvIka

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 27 Mar 2007, 23:13

rbharath,
it is

bhakti biccamiyyavE bhAvukamagu sAtvIka

'biccam' is a telugu word meaning 'bhikSa'
http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/bhakti-biccamiyyave

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 29 Mar 2007, 21:41

Pachchimiriyam Adiyappiah (of Viriboni fame) who was at the court of Tulaja II (1763-1787) is credited with having systematized the art of pallavi singing. Vidwan Chennakesaviah has authored "Ragalapana paddhati tana mattu pallavi" in which (pp.10-15) he refers to other titans in the field such as Syama Sastri, Pallavi Gopalayyar and Pallavi Doreswamy Ayyar. He speculates that the kritis of Tyagaraja which portrayed varied emotions may have inspired musicians to choose pallavis of kritis for improvisation in their pallavis (RTPs).

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 30 Mar 2007, 06:47

knandago2001- You have been providing very useful info. Thanks.

The original Sangeetha Samparadaya Pradarshini in Telugu has also mentioned the same sentence reg. "gAna lOla" in Thodi.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 30 Mar 2007, 14:00

lnandago2001 and vs_manjunath,

Please see here

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/5409/pal_lyr.html

http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit08192002/musicarts1.asp

And I have certainly seen this in texts as well although I do not recall which. Possibly R.N.Srilata's book on maOdharma sangIta published by Mysore Uni (I wont bet on this)

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 30 Mar 2007, 23:52

Although I do not have access to Dr. RN Srilatha's book as of now, I'll be sure to look it up when I make my annual visit to the South.

The term pallavi likely refers to a combination of pada, padagarbha or â€œarudiâ€

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 31 Mar 2007, 00:15

vgvindan wrote:rbharath,
it is
bhakti biccamiyyavE bhAvukamagu sAtvIka
'biccam' is a telugu word meaning 'bhikSa'
http://www.rasikas.org/wiki/bhakti-biccamiyyave

thanks a lot Sri Govindan.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 31 Mar 2007, 00:38

knandago2001 wrote:Although I do not have access to Dr. RN Srilatha's book as of now, I'll be sure to look it up when I make my annual visit to the South.

Please feel free to refer any book you want. And do include Chennakesaviah's book on pallavis as well as the music encycopedia from Mysore uni.

The term pallavi likely refers to a combination of pada, padagarbha or â€œarudiâ€

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 31 Mar 2007, 02:28

I agree that the origins of the term pallavi remain obscure and mere conjecture cannot be construed as evidence. The article by Muthukumar and Ramana does not clarify why at all lyrics of a "popular RTP" should find favor in composing the pallavi of a kriti but rather suggests "plagiarism" by the composer. Given the pedigree of the Anai-Ayya brothers and Chinnaswami Dikshitar, I find this unacceptable. Furthermore, the RTP sahitya seems to be a truncated version of the kriti pallavi sahitya in each case.

With regard to sthaaya bhanjani and roopaka bhanjani of the Sangita Ratnakara, the compositions referred to are prabandhas - not kritis. I have not heard niraval singing for prabandhas. Where in a prabandha is it possible to improvise? Do we have recorded history in this regard? I am not aware. However, it is certainly possible that a given kriti may admit of niraval in more than one section or even within the same section(pallavi / anupallavi / charana) e.g: bhoosuraadi...... (Anupallavi)vaasavaadi........ (Anupallavi) taapatraya....... (Charana) of Sri Subhramanyaaya namaste. a priori roopaka bhanjani is more inclusive than sthaaya bhanjani. This description remains essentially the same even in the works of later musicologists such as Raghunatha Nayak who wrote "sangeeta sudha".

Our current understanding of RTP, niraval and even tana is largely based on developments in the post sangeet sudha period (18th century - early 20th century). Adiyappiah and others provide the reference time frame.

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 31 Mar 2007, 02:49

knandago2001 wrote:The article by Muthukumar and Ramana does not clarify why at all lyrics of a "popular RTP" should find favor in composing the pallavi of a kriti but rather suggests "plagiarism" by the composer.

I do not see it as plagiarism at all. I cant see why you should see it that way either. (This line is missing in the english version available as PDF file)

Furthermore, the RTP sahitya seems to be a truncated version of the kriti pallavi sahitya in each case.

Can you explain what you find so "truncated" about this. There is nothing truncated about gAnalOlakaruNAlavAla. mahimateliya taramA nI- certainly not an ideal pallavi in terms of construction but still not "Truncated". If you insist on seeing that as part of the kRti, then surely it will look truncated to you.

I have not heard niraval singing for prabandhas. Where in a prabandha is it possible to improvise?

Have you ever heard a prabandha being sung? Lets come to neraval after that. If the lines you quoted were referiing to prabandhas, then you should not quote it in this context. And it is beside the point to what is being discussed.

The second quote says "The whole song/composition" is improvised upon with melodic variations. There is no such thing done in CM as we know today. If pallavi is taken to mean "Whole composition" then it is rUpakabhanjani that will fit the bill of pallavi. But of course it is pointless to discuss that nit as it refers to prabandhas and not today's kRtis.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 31 Mar 2007, 02:58

knandago2001 wrote:With regard to sthaaya bhanjani and roopaka bhanjani of the Sangita Ratnakara, the compositions referred to are prabandhas - not kritis. I have not heard niraval singing for prabandhas. Where in a prabandha is it possible to improvise?

a priori roopaka bhanjani is more inclusive than sthaaya bhanjani. This description remains essentially the same even in the works of later musicologists such as Raghunatha Nayak who wrote "sangeeta sudha".

Our current understanding of RTP, niraval and even tana is largely based on developments in the post sangeet sudha period (18th century - early 20th century). Adiyappiah and others provide the reference time frame.

One question here - Is there anyone still singing prabandhas? I thought they were an extinct species

If you do have any examples of any prabandhas sung please share with us.

What is roopaka bhajane and sthya bhajane ? I am learning this terminology for the first time,. Can you please elaborate?

-Ramakriya

tmt fan · Post by **tmt fan** » 31 Mar 2007, 09:44

Neraval should be done in a place where the meaning of the words is plesant to hear repeatedly and the statement should be complete.the artist makes the statement more reposeful by eloborating musically well technically alsoso that the sahithya and sangitha mingle nicely and you get the atmost satisfaction. most of the artists sing neraval without understanding the meani ng and don,t see whether the statement is complete.For example,Iheard somebody singing ,Alanadu sowmithri padha seva,in raga vachaspathi,without completing the statement.I pity them.What else can I do?

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 01 Apr 2007, 23:03

Here are the links to Veena Dhanammalâ€™s rendition of the kriti â€“ on the veena and her own voice!!
http://www.badongo.com/file/2625433 pallavi â€“ mahima teliya taramaa nee mahini krupaa visesha; anupallavi â€“ mahishaasuruni naNachina maa dharmasamvardhani; charana â€“ vedashaastra muluchadivivi vaadamuseya nerchina khedamulu deerchu abhedamaina bhaktigalga; Following the kriti there is a brief spell of improvisation from 2â€™19â€

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 02 Apr 2007, 01:25

ramakriya wrote:Is there anyone still singing prabandhas? I thought they were an extinct species If you do have any examples of any prabandhas sung please share with us.
-Ramakriya

Sangeethapriya (TNS) links

Prabandham verse (Chediyaya valvinaigal theerkkum) - Ragamalikai
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/Downloads ... TIONAL.mp3

Cleveland - 1998
Prabandham verse (Chediyaya valvinaigal theerkkum) in Hamsanandi
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/Downloads ... adhvan.mp3

followed by,
Tirupati Venkataramana - Hamsanandi - Adi - Purandaradasar
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/Downloads ... _Hamsa.mp3

Prabandham verse (Chediyaya valvinaigal theerkkum) in Hamsanandi +
Srinivasa Tiruvenkata - Hamsanandi - Adi - Papanasam Sivan
http://www.sangeethapriya.org/Downloads ... nandhi.mp3
_____________________________________________________________

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 02 Apr 2007, 02:17

Tanjavur, Thanks for the links. But I do not think these divyaprabandhas ( I hope I am correct about the name) confirm to the prabandha lakshaNa given in musicial treatises - These look more like shlOkas or ugAbhOgas in their structure.

-Ramakriya

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 02 Apr 2007, 22:21

ramakriyaji,

Not all of these viruttams from nAlAyira divya prabhandam are viruttams.

For example tiruvAymozhi was sung in specific tALAs in the days of svAmi rAmAnujA but today only 3 families in India have the original varNameTTU, namely the arayar's of tiruvarangam, tiruvilliputtur and AzhvAr tirunagari. You can have a darSan with namperumAl, vaTapatraSAyi and Adipiran enjoying the pAsurams in the prabhanda style today also.

In my nUl (textbook) of nAlAyira divya prabhandam, I can see specific names of paNN and tALA (old tamizh) for each prabhanda at the begining of each pattu pAsuram. We also find evidence in AzhvAr pAsurams that they were being sung as songs.

I dont think we can conclude they are in the form of shlOkas or ugabhOgas alone. But, there are a 1000 pAsurams called the nAngAmAyiram or iyarpa which were handed over to us by AcAryAs without varNameTTu.

The same can be said for the tEvAram, tiruvAsagam etc of nAyanmArs as well.

Apologises for not writing in detail here. I was supposed write about the music in nAlAyira divya prabhandam a long time ago. Even RShankarji reminded me about it. I did start writing under the topic "pAvininsai pADi tirivanE". But I have to take my qualifying exams for PhD this April 9-25. So I will continue researching, writing and posting from May 2007. Sorry once again.

I wanted to know if somebody had a copy of Dr SR's 1966 PhD thesis on Silappadikaram at Wesleyan University which I could borrow or copy. I thought I would be of help to me when I research on the music available in nAlAyira divya prabhandams..

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 04 Apr 2007, 09:32

Tirumala Tirupathi Devasthanams have brought out cassettes on nalayira divyaprabhandams as sung in tirumala temple. It is sung in an unique style which is quite slow and enjoyable. At the first level of listening, we can't associate any ragam with this rendition. This is just for info. That's all.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 04 Apr 2007, 19:43

ksrimech:
Good luck with your qualifiers.
Manjunath:
I heard someone say that the OduvArs who recite the prabhandam recite it in a pentatonic scale closest to mOhana(m)...is that anywhere close to the rendering in the cd? The Bombay sisters have released a CD where they have sung many of the prabhandams...

tmt fan · Post by **tmt fan** » 05 Apr 2007, 21:17

Thirunarayana trust in bangalore is doing yeoman service to bring out the ,Nalayira Divyaprabandham in musical form (CM) by recording first and second C.D.sung by Sangitha Kalanidhi R.Vedavalli withexcellant musicthat is very appropriate and the small book that contains the notations so that any body can learn.AND theyALSO arrange music concerts where .Divyaprabandam should be sung without fail.tHIS IS A NICE WAY TO PROPAGATE THE PRABANDHAM AND THIS IS THE ONLY ONE OF THIS KIND.

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 06 Apr 2007, 08:26

rshankar wrote:Manjunath:
I heard someone say that the OduvArs who recite the prabhandam recite it in a pentatonic scale closest to mOhana(m)

Shankar- With your input & careful listening- We can conclude Yes, it's Mohanam.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 Apr 2007, 21:35

Manjunath,

Can you post the details of the cassettes from the TTD? Maybe we can order it online from Giritrading or some other place....
Thanks.
Ravi

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 06 Apr 2007, 21:47

Related topic :
Index >> Bhakti >> Divya Prabandham music
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=339

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 06 Apr 2007, 22:22

ksrimech:

Could you please post details regarding the nUl on divyaprabandham. I'd like to purchase it, if possible. Thanks,

thanjavur · Post by **thanjavur** » 07 Apr 2007, 01:06

(TTD) Audio Cassettes - Alwar Divya Prabhandams

http://www.tirumala.org/activities_reli ... raudio.htm

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 07 Apr 2007, 06:58

rshankar wrote:Manjunath,

Can you post the details of the cassettes from the TTD? Maybe we can order it online from Giritrading or some other place....
Thanks.
Ravi

NALAYIRA DIVYA PRABHANDAM Vol -38 ; KAL 000051
Vol 31 ; KAL 000044
Rendered in TIRUMALA Style
ALWAR DIVYA PRABANDHA PROJECT
SRI VENKATESHWARA RECORDING PROJECT
Tirumala Tirupathi Devastanams

Rendered in Tirumala Style
by Sri.U. Ve. T.A GOPALACHARYA SWAMY, TIRUPATI

PROGRAMME DESIGNED & DIRECTED BY KAMISETTY SRINIVASULU, Director SV REcording Project,

General Supervision: MKR VINAYAK IAS, EXECUTIVE OFFICER,TTD
(These two cassettes , I have purchased two years back , tht's in 2005- So many more cassetes might have come as of to-day as this is ALWAR DIVYA PRABHANDA PROJECT)

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 07 Apr 2007, 07:37

Thanks!

meena · Post by **meena** » 07 Apr 2007, 08:30

Rendered in TIRUMALA Style

manjunath
what is Tirumala style?

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 07 Apr 2007, 08:56

This may be an unique style followed who have rendered it. Possibly RamanujAchArya must have initiated this style, which is followed to this day.

The same prabhandams may be sung in different styles in different Sree Vaishnava Temples ?

Only Iyengars who know this thoroughly are qualified to comment on your question " What is Tirumala style ?"

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 24 Apr 2007, 03:57

knandago2001 wrote:I have not heard niraval singing for prabandhas. Where in a prabandha is it possible to improvise?

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2621

vs_manjunath · Post by **vs_manjunath** » 24 Apr 2007, 17:45

prashant wrote:Nedunuri Garu, while singing pAlinCu kAmAkshi, sings the almost-never-heard mudra charaNam and then sings niraval at 'rAjamukhi SyAmakrishNanuta kAnCIpurEshwari' which seems, to me, more appropriate and engaging than 'kAntamaku'.

The full second charanam is as follows:

rAjAdhi rAja makuta thata mani rAjabhojAla|

nijasaNidhi devi samastha janulakella varadA||

rAjamukhi shyAmakrishna nutha|

kAnchipuRishwari vikacha|

rAjeevadhalAkshi jagathsAkhiyau prasanna parAshakthi ||
(pAlinchu kAmAkshi)

knandago2001 · Post by **knandago2001** » 16 Nov 2008, 16:45

Excerpts from Smt. R. VedavalliÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s Lec-Dem on Niraval
at Rasikhapriya in Kolkata on 16-11-08

The term niraval may derive from tamil (as in the phrase "vaartai kondu nEruvadal"

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 16 Nov 2008, 20:28

Nandagopal,

Thanks for that painstaking, in-depth, and informative summarization!

Did the vidushi have anything to say about when to sing the neraval? I have noticed that Sri SSI and Smt. MSS sang niravals during the rendering of the song - i.e., when the particular line/phrase is sung - sometimes, after the neraval, and svaras, a full caraNam may be sung after that. Most of the others sing the composition in it's entirety first and then go back and take up the line/phrase for neraval - and the rationale given is that they do not want to disturb the development of the composition by interposing the neraval. Personally, I like the SSI/MSS approach so much better.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 16 Nov 2008, 21:00

Thanks Nandagopal. Incidentally the Vidushi has also broght out a CD on the subject which covers largely the same points. It is highly recommended for those not able to attend the LD in person.

I have also found Suguna Puroshottaman's lec dem on Neravals both absorbing and enlightening.

bilahari · Post by **bilahari** » 16 Nov 2008, 21:59

Nanadagopal, that was an excellent, informative writeup. Thanks a lot! But what does this mean: "niraval for the poorvanga and uttaranga should, as far a possible, be completed in the respective sections"