About composer of Kurai Onrum Illai

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Feb 2015, 22:01

http://swarajyamag.com/magazine/a-true- ... -of-india/

shankar vaidyanathan · Post by **shankar vaidyanathan** » 10 Feb 2015, 08:35

Thank you, kvchellappa, for sharing the link. Do we know for sure that Rajaji was the "composer?" I have read that Rajaji was the lyricist while Kadayanallur Venkataraman, working with MSS, may have set music and tuned the song. I could be of course wrong in my recollection.

I have participated in group singing of this song. While the lyrics seem to evoke reasonably positive feelings in declaring "Kurai Ondrum Illai" (குறை ஒன்றும் இல்லை), the Shivaranjani opening always made me deeply reflective and to some extent sad (that raga could do that - for e.g., Jaane Kahan Gaye Woh Din.) I become very aware that there is probably no ordinary human being that doesn't have at least some deficiency. However, the song is a great creation of a brilliant mind (Rajaji.)

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 10 Feb 2015, 08:55

Dear S.V., You have raised the interesting point about how one defines a composer & for lack of better word "Tunesmith". For example many of Swathi tirunal's compositions were "set to tune" by SEMMANGUDI SRINIVASA IYER. So in that sense I am fairly sure Kadayanallur Venkataraman was the one who set the words of Rajaji to the actual tune. Incidentally K.V. was a TRUE GENIUS who has received VERY LITTLE RECOGNITION FOR HIS INGENIOUS CONTRIBUTIONS TO SO MANY SONGS M.S. RENDERED. Another "wrinkle" could be Vaggeayakara" who generally both wrote the composition & set it to tune& rendered it too! It is a nice topic for discussion! VKV

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 10 Feb 2015, 09:35

I stand corrected in my use of composer. I knew of course that KV set it to music.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 10 Feb 2015, 10:53

Check this thread detailing out different tunesmiths of different compositions.
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13399

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 10 Feb 2015, 12:38

Yes, It was by the Maestro K.V. Sir. Which became one of the most immensely liked composition by MSS Amma and also by the Rasikas.

VKV Sir, Great Maestro Muthia Bhagavathar, as Asthana Vidwan of Thiruvananthapuram Samasthanam, had also set to tune many lyrics of Swathi Tirunal. Later Great Maestro SSI had set to tune also many lyrics of Swathi Tirunal, while being the Principal of Music College. I am not sure, but I have the information that Great Maestro Prof. K.S.Narayana Swamy Iyyer and few more maestros had set the lyrics to tunes of ever lasting beauty.

munirao2001

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 10 Feb 2015, 13:51

SSI has himself said that KSN has done for many, and also that his own contribution was only a part.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 10 Feb 2015, 23:03

munirao2001 wrote:Yes, It was by the Maestro K.V. Sir. Which became one of the most immensely liked composition by MSS Amma and also by the Rasikas.
VKV Sir, Great Maestro Muthia Bhagavathar, as Asthana Vidwan of Thiruvananthapuram Samasthanam, had also set to tune many lyrics of Swathi Tirunal. Later Great Maestro SSI had set to tune also many lyrics of Swathi Tirunal, while being the Principal of Music College. I am not sure, but I have the information that Great Maestro Prof. K.S.Narayana Swamy Iyyer and few more maestros had set the lyrics to tunes of ever lasting beauty.
munirao2001

YOU ARE RIGHT. I just meant it as a quick example. BUT THE MAJOR ISSUE is because of LACK OF proper documentation we are still arguing whether the LAST TWO of the Navagraha Kritis were actually composed by Dhikhshithar, whether some of Thyagaraja's kritis are his own & even if Swathi Tirunal is the author of his own kritis.
ACTUALLY a great Veena Virtuoso cheapened himself in dealing in areas in which he was NO EXPERT by not only doing some third from arithmetic & threatening to sue SEM like many Scientists starting with DR.Raja Ramanna the"famous" Atomic Energy Dept "Scientist" who wrote a BOOK FULL OF ERRORS pretending to be an expert on carnatic music- being followed by a famous musician himself whose book is currently uncritically being praised- & ALL OF THEM BEING ALLOWED TO EXHIBIT THEIR IGNORANCE from the stage of the hallowed Music Academy itself. Another GLARING& TERRIBLE EXAMPLE was LGJ being sued as not being the author of the compositions in Jaya Jaya Devi-at least 500 persons can testify to his creation- by the organiser. Fortunately the JUDGE RULED IN LGJ'S FAVOUR......It would be great if some knowledgeable persons address this kind if issue.....VKV

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 11 Feb 2015, 13:21

VKV Sir
Historical information with facts need to be in public-practitioners, students and the rasikas of CM.
1. Fact is a majority of the lyrical works of Swati Tirunal, Jayachamaraja Wodeyar- Mysuru Vasudevacharya- were set to tune by the Great Maestros. Their class is evident with the signature and stamp of either their bani or style. Guru-Shishya parampara adhering to the patanthara suddhatvam also are evidence of setting them to the tunes and its original creator. It is also a fact that except few hundreds of compositions of Dasa Sahaithya, which were in the karna parampara of Haridasas, majority of them were set to tunes by the many Great Maestros with the inspiration of Trinity classicism. Similarly for Annamacharya's pada kavita.

2. Great Genius and Great Maestro Veena Virtuoso Sri SB took up the issue with the conviction that Sangeet Natak Academy, New Delhi should not publish the Book,with the wrong claim of Vaggeyakara status to Swati Tirunal. I was witness and listened to the discussions on this topic between SB Sir and SSRao, a very close friend of SB Sir and my Guru/Father at our residence. There was also written letters campaign by SB Sir. When experts committee was convened, SSRao took the stand that with the clear evidence available, Swati Tirunal is a vaggeyakara for select compositions and for a majority of the compositions, lyricist only. But when the Great Maestros have set them to tunes and the compositions are exceptionally beautiful and Great Maestros themselves have dedicated their tunes to Swati Tirunal, the objections to be ruled out, since they have stood the test of time. The controversy and the issue ended thus. SB Sir ended his campaign gracefully, agreeing to disagree. SB Sir took up as a cause but not with any other intentions or motivations.

3. With regard to the Great Maestro LGJ's composition, the litigation done with motive of gaining publicity only.

4. The Sadas Sessions of Madras Music Academy did discuss these issues with the contributions of Shishyas in the Karna parampara; scholars; musicologists. The Journals of MMA must be having the deliberations records published as articles. The determination and establishment was based on the grammar, style of poetry, issues close to the heart of the vaggeyakara as evident in their other compositions, composition signatures including mudhra/ankita.

Sir, my intention was to share my little knowledge on this issue. We have many Great Maestros/Maestros -Sri AMS;Sri CRK;SriNSG to mention only few of them to give us and share their knowledge on this issue of importance.

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 11 Feb 2015, 13:43

VKV Sir,
On TMK's 'Southern Music, Karnatik Music Story', just want to know whether you have read it and your critical views are in general or a particular topic like 'KM in North America', if you have read it. If you inform me that you have not read it, I will send you the select excerpts of great insights and observations in TMK's book for your perusal. On "KM in N.A." I have no direct knowledge and you are the best judge as one of the main architect of this great development in the CM history.
munirao2001

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 11 Feb 2015, 15:23

I admire the great affection for TMK and the great tenacity to recommend his book at every opportunity. Sri VKV has his own reasons for his views as many others. In belittling the contribution of the greats of yesterday (he said in one forum, 'what have they done for CM? They were eating and sleeping) and ridiculing fellow artists (he said that to sing varnam in the beginning is idiotic), and so on, he has crossed his bounds. Kindly tell us if there is any rational explanation for such childish outbursts in his magnum opus. Otherwise it is pointless to waste one's time there. Those who find the book engaging and scholarly would love it and the benefit is theirs. There may be others who get a similar experience elsewhere. I find it hardly plausible that the great number of artists of ARI's own time and since have all been sheep and only TMK is a maestro gifted with immaculate thinking. Yesterday I heard a concert of Nedunuri start wih a varnam and it set the tempo for the concert exquisitely. TMK is entitled to his views, but not to the arrogance to let it appear that others are ignoramuses.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 11 Feb 2015, 16:08

KVChellappa Sir,
TMK and myself know each other and the relationship and mutual respect is for pristine and pure form of CM and its practices, nothing beyond. Yes, I recommend this one of the rare and excellent book in the history of CM, after I have read it and also critically studied it. I too have disagreements, based on the history, information and the logic. I have no knowledge on his criticisms you have cited. I will not comment. One must question TMK and get his reply to make the judgment and understanding. I have not read any 'childish outbursts' in this book. If you have, please quote and bring them to my knowledge. If the issue is to be discussed, we can do it in public or in private (emails). I am of the firm opinion that his book and his contribution is historically significant in CM. TMK has not declared other performers as 'ignoramuses'. I am also not saying 'Kurai Onrum Illai'. Sir in absence of a discourse amongst the music fraternity on his book, his thoughts and ideas, this problem is existing. In literature, great literary criticisms happen and knowledge is enhanced. My attempts are to kindle this process amongst the music fraternity.

munirao2001

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 11 Feb 2015, 21:53

shankar vaidyanathan wrote: Do we know for sure that Rajaji was the "composer?" I have read that Rajaji was the lyricist while Kadayanallur Venkataraman, working with MSS, may have set music and tuned the song. .....However, the song is a great creation of a brilliant mind (Rajaji.)

Actually, this song was published in the Tamil weekly magazine Kalki ( 1967) with the words " Rajaji ( with help from : mee.pa.sOmu ) ( உதவி: மீ.ப.சோமு) .

M.P.Somu was a Tamil scholar who had collaborated with Rajaji in several projects.

I have been curious about when M.S. sang this song first in a public concert..I asked this question in another thread ...
http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic. ... 25#p272549

but I did not get any response. Does anyone reading this thread know the answer?
Thanks for any info.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 11 Feb 2015, 21:55

I always felt that this much cliched song was over rated for its poetic and literary value, thanks to MSS and Kalki (brand ambassador of CR). CR knew only rules and his short stories were nothing short of sermons.
VKV, I think you are referring to Veena Balachander. It was accepted by many privately that all of Swati's compositions seemed not only his own but a mix up of compositions by one of Thanjai quartet Vadivelu, Rayimman Thambi and Ullur Parameswara Iyer. This version of mix up without specifying the other names was also accepted by Dr.Sathyanarayana who was appointed by NBT to probe into the matter. It so happened that they were collated and notated by Harikesanallur and Semmangudi who seemed to have done the job genuinely believing that they were Swati's only. Neither of them nor Swati need to be blamed for this. Balachander probably blew the issue out of proportions but there were commoners, at the height of the controversy, who felt that the defenders also played it dirty (more discreetly).
With passage of time this kind of mix up is unavoidable; as rasikas we can only say that 'rose will smell as sweet even it is called by a different name!'

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 11 Feb 2015, 21:57

Should we call some one "arrogant" if he/she breaks the normally accepted paddhathi for CM. Freedom of speech without using filthy language is the backbone of any discussion

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 11 Feb 2015, 23:28

Dear VK RAMAN, CHALANATA, MUNIRAO2001, KV CHELLAPPA & OTHERS I MIGHT HAVE MISSED:
VKR: I TOTALLY AGREE WITH WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN. CHALANATA: YOUR description of what CR did or did not know only shows YOUR IGNORANCE.
KV CHELLAPPA: OBVIOUSLY I KNOW A LOT MORE THAN WHAT I AM WRITING HERE.I DO NOT WISH TO FALL INTO THE TRAP OF GIVING PUBLICITY & ELEVATING TMK TO A GREATER STATUS THAN HE DESERVES.FOR EXAMPLE IN MY VIEW HE IS QUITE SHALLOW AS FAR AS HISTORY & KNOWLEDGE OF CARNATIC MUSIC. HIS VIEWS CAN ONLY BE CALLED ILL INFORMED AT BEST FOR EXAMPLE REG. BRAHMINS VS NON-BRAHMINS. SIMILARLY IF HE IS A SERIOUS SCHOLAR WHEN TALKING ABOUT ARIYAKUDI RAMANJUA IYENGAR he should have first started with the article by "THE HERO AS A MUSICIAN " BY G.N..BALASUBRAMANIAM & discussed it as a minimum. Actually I have decided to START A SECTION ON ARIYAKUDI so we can DISCUSS WHAT HE DID OR DID NOT DO BECAUSE SEMI-KNOWLEDGEABLEABLE AUTHORS ONLY DISTORT THE TRUTH.In the same fashion I have started a section on the history of carnatic music in rasikas to describe WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. I invite others with personal knowledge to share their knowledge. REG SWATHI TIRUNAL I was at SEM'S HOUSE FOR LUNCH on the day he was appearing on S.B'S TV PROGRAM & HE WAS CALLED BY almost every major musician esp. Sri. Sivanandam (Veena) a descendent of the Tanjore Quartet & follower of Ponnaiah Pillai; TO THE CREDIT of SEM HE DISCUSSED what he shd say as well as what Sivanandam knew for 1.5 hours. Those who actually saw the program would have realised S.B. suffered a T.K.O. at the level of MUHAMAD ALI IN HIS HEY DAYS. The only part he made an interesting point was when he started calculating how long it would take to write down all the compositions Swati Tirunal wrote & questioned its authenticity on that basis like questioning if THYAGABRAHMAM had enough time to say a million times the name of Rama etc. . EVEN IF ONE COMPOSITION LIKE PANKAJA LOCHANA- KALYANI ESP AS RENDERED BY SEM-LGJ-T.S.- THAT CONTRIBUTION WAS MORE THAN ENOUGH TO CEMENT HIM AS A MAJOR COMPOSER. In short S.B. got nowhere with SEM!REG. MUNI RAO: YES. I HAVE READ THE BOOK. As a matter of fact HE interviewed V.V.S. ABOUT N.A. stuff- even about me- & WROTE SOMETHING which contained FALSE things;Several Relatives of the musicians have called me & requested me to correct the omissions etc. That is one of the reasons I have started a section on History of Carnatic Music in N.A. in Rasikas so those who know things can contribute..
Finally let me say I have known & followed TMK FROM day one & he is a friend also. BUT as a Scientist I have to call a SPADE A SPADE. I will conclude by saying I AM NOT WILLING TO WASTE MY TIME ON THE RUMINATIONS WHICH ARE AT BEST expressed to gain publicity thru' expressing incorrect things. I feel this forum has enough experts as well as non-experts who can make the RIGHT JUDGEMENT given the FACTS. just one example to conclude:
When TMK& BOMBAY JAYASHREE published another well acclaimed Coffee Table Book in the section on great musicians he OMITTED MENTION OF MMI. ONE of the followers of MMI WROTE HIM & ASKED WHY? After lot of prodding he replied that it was because MMI WAS NOT A GREAT MUSICIAN WITHOUT GIVING ANY REASON. Of course his answer spread like wildfire & many of them are still more mad & concluded he was an opportuinist with callous regard for either the truth or facts. THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT even today people sit in VANI MAHAL WITH JUST MMI'S PIC. ON STAGE & LISTEN TO S CONCERT IN BOMBAY FOR 3.5 HOURS & REGULARLY MEET EVERY MONTH TO LISTEN TO HIS RECORDINGS after close to half a century. Whatever non-sense or sense he writes or says I URGE THE RASIKAS TO INVESTIGATE THE TRUTH OF WHAT ANY ONE WRITES INCLUDING ME. VKV

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 12 Feb 2015, 08:27

VKV, sir, thanks for your detailed response.
As regards Rajaji, who is dear to my heart and whom I read avidly in teens when my contemporaries were busy with Marx (which introduces a bias), I must say he wrote with a didactic purpose, not to please and not as a commercial venture. Even his translation of Ramayana and Mahabharata has the same passion that people should imbibe ethics. If his stories are like sermons, he meant them to be so. They have not become a hit because of lack of intrinsic literary value in themselves and people have disdain for ethics, esp. those who feel money-making is the sole pursuit of life. If Rajai's writing did not inspire lovers of literature, he would not have considered his job ill done as he never pretended to be a literary artist. His writing, his activism in politics, his life, his song that has become popular all have had this passion that people should be well anchored in life, believing in virtue, love and devotion. He says that he never hated. That is true. He was a Vaishnavite of conviction, but saw in all faiths a dignity, and Christians and Muslims never considered him a pagan or an enemy. His life was noble and deserves to be remembered in context. The song 'Kurai onrum illai' certainly is prosaic and has no merit compared to thousands of other compositions. But, its meaning is profound and coming from a man whose life saw troubles, toil, fight, opposition, (full of complaints to an ordinary experiencer), it touched a chord in the hearts of men and women. It summarises the crux of Indian metaphysics and tries to instill faith and devotion in the people who appeared to abandon it and who had complaints galore. The audience expects the song to be rendered and likes it. Its merit is in its appeal and the authentic feeling it conveys.

devan · Post by **devan** » 12 Feb 2015, 11:15

VKV SIR kindly write more about this more this immatured writer.iam more amazed about the followers of this upstart.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 12 Feb 2015, 12:01

TMK is arrogant not because he sets aside ARI format or because he thinks independently. He is arrogant when he reacts childishly, which he often does, when he says, 'You can never know,' when he utters categorically that singing varnam first is idiotic, when he feels that the previous generation did nothing to further CM (he did say it in a panel discussion where Ganesh Rajagopalan also participated, when he tells the audience peremptorily, 'Do not clap.' when he says, 'If I hurt your belief system, I am not apologetic about it,' and I can list many more examples. As a musician it is up to him to present what he thinks is music and the audience will take it if it likes it. There is no issue there. He is one of the musicians in a large galaxy, not the only star among planets.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Feb 2015, 19:29

'Do not clap.' when he says, 'If I hurt your belief system, I am not apologetic about it - I do see anything wrong with these statements

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 12 Feb 2015, 20:08

"Swati Tirunal is a vaggeyakara for select compositions and for a majority of the compositions, lyricist only set to tunes by the many Great Maestros with the inspiration of Trinity classicism" - I wish Rama Verma is available in this discussion. I always thought that Swathi Thirunal himself set the tune and that the tunes are very sacred not to be changed. What does "Trinity Classicism" mean

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 12 Feb 2015, 20:24

VK RAMAN wrote:I always thought that Swathi Thirunal himself set the tune and that the tunes are very sacred not to be changed.

If that is true, how do explain the rAga changes made to bhAvayAmi raghurAmam, and the dhanaSrI tillAnA for instance?

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 12 Feb 2015, 22:00

devan wrote:VKV SIR kindly write more about this more this immatured writer.i am more amazed about the followers of this upstart.

SORRY! I DONT WANT TO WASTE MY TIME ON HIM OR HIS SO CALLED GREAT REVOLUTIONARY NEW INSIGHTS. I am starting a section on ARI so at least a few persons would come to know about the proper history & direction OF CM in twentieth century C.M.. VKV

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 12 Feb 2015, 23:54

As far as Bhavayami is concerned, it is known that Semmangudi obtained the permission of the Maharani of Travancore to set it in Ragamalika.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Feb 2015, 14:23

VKRaman Sir,
Trinity-Shyama Shastri, Thyagaraja and Mudduswami Deekshita - have composed covering the excellence of quintessential music of lakshana and lakshya sangitam, establishing very clearly the chosen Govindamathya or Venkatamakhi raga lakshanas. Their original creativity of developing KM as one of the greatest art music, change from the Bhagavatha Sangita and prabhanda sangita prevalent till then with compositions setting standards for the manodharma-creative tools of raaga conception and development - based on both rich gamakas and scalar approach; exceptional quality of lyrics for the neraval; strong foundations for the svara kalpana; intricacies of tala or rhythm; compositions which can not be mastered in one's own life term, only with few exceptions. They have also created new ragas. Their compositions with sahithya and raaga bhavam, with the optimum utilization of the core strength of KM-gamaka pushti or strength in vilamba-madhyama and turita laya created the edifice for all the practitioners to follow them in their 'intent, content and delivery', with both first time listening pleasure and also its recall pleasure. Trinity Classicism stands testimony to the highest ideal of Pandita and Pamara Ranjkatvam. This is capsuled as 'Trinity Classicism'. Other vaggeyakaras before them based only on specific aspect of manodharama sangitam and achieved excellence, but with limited success and following.

munirao2001

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 12 Mar 2015, 14:50

Pasupathy Sir,

regarding your question as to when "kuRai onRum illai" was first sung by MSS-Amma, it was at least as early as the late 70s when her recording of this song was issued as the last piece on LP # 2 of the Venkateshwara Pancharatnamala. The first 2 LPs only had Annamacharya kirtanas excepting for this song. I remember that the sleevenotes for the LPs were done up extremely well, and in multiple scripts, so it was easy for my mother to copy the words for the various kritis like "enta mAtramuna" in Tamil script !

Your point about the kriti appearing in the 1967 issue of Kalki with the note about assistance from M.P.Somu is very interesting. I conjecture that Rajaji would have recalled a phrase from TiruppAvai as he went about this song. I am sure that he either used it as a creative point of departure or he ruminated over it post-facto !

While discussing both "kuRai onRum illai" and "enta mAtramuna" with my Srivaishnava friend... I brought up the phrase "nIvalana koratE lEdu" in the caraNam of this Annamacharya samkirtana, whereupon he immediately recalled the phrase "kuRai onRum illAda gOvindA" from the 28th TiruppAvai starting with "karavaikaL". Annamacharya's phrase is almost a transcreation, while Rajaji's phrase is a twist !

-Srini.

ps: Aside -- Not only understanding many of the words in Annamacharya's kirtanas is difficult (only very recently a reasonably accurate niganTu of words from his kritis has been published according to VAKRanga Rao and others), but for understanding the correct import of some of the phrases like "nIru kolaDi tAmaravu", a deep understanding of Srivaishnavite or other traditional teaching is essential.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 12 Mar 2015, 20:12

srini_pichumani wrote:Pasupathy Sir

-Srini.

ps: Aside -- Not only understanding many of the words in Annamacharya's kirtanas is difficult (only very recently a reasonably accurate niganTu of words from his kritis has been published according to VAKRanga Rao and others), but for understanding the correct import of some of the phrases like "nIru kolaDi tAmaravu", a deep understanding of Srivaishnavite or other traditional teaching is essential.

Annamacharya's TELUGU is somewhat different than what prevails today as well as his adherence to Srivaishnavite teachings etc which as with anything Indian HAS various versions. VKV

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 12 Mar 2015, 21:27

srini_pichumani wrote:Pasupathy Sir,

regarding your question as to when "kuRai onRum illai" was first sung by MSS-Amma, it was at least as early as the late 70s when her recording of this song was issued as the last piece on LP # 2 of the Venkateshwara Pancharatnamala. . . . //
Your point about the kriti appearing in the 1967 issue of Kalki with the note about assistance from M.P.Somu is very interesting. I conjecture that Rajaji would have recalled a phrase from TiruppAvai as he went about this song..

Thanks, Srini. Nice to hear from you.

Yes, I have that LP record ( says : 1979 as well as 1980 in 2 different places in back) . My questions arose due to some qns from someone else! ( the usual state of affairs...) The Wiki has some incorrect info about this song (again pretty usual...) Before correcting some of those Wiki entries, I wanted to know if MSS had sung it in public before the LP record release ( I doubt it , but I don't have any proof). Since Rajaji passed away in 72, I don't think he would have heard this.. But again I don't have any proof nor do I know when the music was composed ..just before the record or much earlier? My best guess is still: the first audio appearance is in the LP record .

Yes, I think Rajaji was inspired by the line from Thiruupavai. Gopal Gandhi has something more to say :
http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mag/20 ... 220100.htm

Yes, the sleeve notes in those LP records were excellent. ( all prepared by Dr. N.Ramesan ).

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 12 Mar 2015, 21:47

Pasupathy wrote:Before correcting some of those Wiki entries, I wanted to know if MSS had sung it in public before the LP record release ( I doubt it , but I don't have any proof). Since Rajaji passed away in 72, I don't think he would have heard this.. But again I don't have any proof nor do I know when the music was composed ..just before the record or much earlier? My best guess is still: the first audio appearance is in the LP record .

1. This was sung for the 1st time as part of the Balaji Pancharatnamala.(1979/80)
2.Yes. Rajaji never did hear this song sung when he was alive.
3.The.music for this was composed in the year 1979/80 by Kadayanallur Venkataraman.

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 12 Mar 2015, 22:53

cienu wrote: 1. This was sung for the 1st time as part of the Balaji Pancharatnamala.(1979/80)
2.Yes. Rajaji never did hear this song sung when he was alive.
3.The.music for this was composed in the year 1979/80 by Kadayanallur Venkataraman.

Thanks. This is the confirmation I was looking for.

srini_pichumani · Post by **srini_pichumani** » 13 Mar 2015, 11:47

Pasupathy Sir,

yes, PVRK Prasad as the EO of TTD supported by Shri.N.Ramesan as TTD Chairman were key to this recording project -- PVRK Prasad has narrated the story of how they got MSS/Sadasivam to agree to these recordings, in his autobiography that is available in part, on Google Books.

-Srini.

ps: Ramesan's son, Jayendra, was my hostel mate from 1980-1983, so I got to know a little bit about the scholar and this project too.

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 15 Mar 2015, 04:03

Thanks, Srini, for the ref to book by PVRK Prasad. "Annamayya comes to MS's Rescue" looks like an interesting chapter.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 15 Mar 2015, 08:13

Dr VKV and Sri MKR do not credit it as authentic.

Sivaramakrishnan · Post by **Sivaramakrishnan** » 28 Mar 2015, 06:28

An unsung hero. That was Sri. Kadayanallur Venkataraman.
*****
I think it was during 1983. I, in my twenties, was at Tiruvaiyar for the Aaraadhana for the first time. MS's concert was to be broadcast live by AIR in the national programme (9.30 p.m.)from the venue. Earlier in the afternoon I came to know that MS was rehearsing(!) for the concert at a house in the agraharam. I located the venue from where scintillating music (sobhillu sapthaswara) was flowing out. Luckily only a handful of people were around. Trying to look 'as native and natural' as possible, I walked into the house only to be 'stopped by an iron hand' that was KV's! Though he could guess my noble intention, he said: "Ulley practice nadanthittirukku, yaarum varavendaam" (practice is going on, do not disturb). I felt as if the sapthswaras lost shine for a moment! But that was KV's commitment to discipline and standards, not to say of MS's dedication! (Will an artist of her stature do a dress rehearsal these days? Thiruparkadal Veeraraghavan, TK Murthy and Vinayakram were for pakkamelam that day)

And I made a hasty exit the moment I saw Sri Sadasivam emerging out to find out who the intruder was!!
I listened to the concert from outside. An unforgettable experience etched in my memory!
******
During his last years Kadayanallur was assisting his son who was manning a telephone booth at the Isabella hospital, Alwarpet, Chennai. He didn't appear to have any KURAI (kurai onrum illai!). Perhaps all the 'kurai' is on our part.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 Mar 2015, 10:03

Re: About composer of Kurai Onrum Illai
Unread postby Sivaramakrishnan » 27 Mar 2015 17:58
An unsung hero. That was Sri. Kadayanallur Venkataraman.

I AGREE. ITS A PITY HE DID NOT GET THE RECOGNITION HE SO RICHLY DESERVED & DESERVES.
The CLEVELAND ARADHANA NEXT YEAR IS HOPING TO DO PROPER JUSTICE BY HIGHLIGHTING HIS UNIQUE ROLE IN NEXT YEAR'S M.S.CENTENARY CELEBRATIONS. VKV

Pasupathy · Post by **Pasupathy** » 28 Mar 2015, 19:11

cacm wrote:Re: About composer of Kurai Onrum Illai
.I AGREE. ITS A PITY HE DID NOT GET THE RECOGNITION HE SO RICHLY DESERVED & DESERVES.

This is due to the regrettable practice of not mentioning great 'tune-smiths' of many songs that we hear and enjoy today.

One example: Was 'Meera' music director S.V. Venkataraman ever mentioned generally in broadcasts as the music composer of "vadavaraiyai" of SilappathikAram , "baja govindam" , "mudiyonRi" , "mannum imayamalaiye", "oLipadaiththa kaNNinaay" during most the years we heard M.S. sing it? ( one exception was an old record ad I had ; I've mentioned it in
http://s-pasupathy.blogspot.com/2014/01/29.html
So with countless others . The success of many songs owes a lot to these unrecognized great musicians who set the tunes of these popular songs.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Mar 2015, 19:46

Pasupathy,
Yes, indeed. Another example: Ambujam Krishna's many beautiful songs which have become popular, have been set to tune by several vidvAns and a vidUshi (SK Vedavalli). I wonder how many rasikAs can name them...

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 Mar 2015, 19:58

I REQUEST ARASI who is herself a good composer to CONDUCT A SPECIAL SESSION at CLEVELAND & CHENNAI in connection with M.S.S.Anniversary starting next spring on this subject. Instead of half baked persons like me expounding on this subject it will be REFRESHING to have a creative EXPERT talk & educate us on this subject. I am VERY IMPRESSED today's chronologically younger persons who are FAR SUPERIOR to those of my generation are interested, involved & knowlegeable CAN ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTE....I certainly will be proposing ( as a member of committes etc) this as one activity that ALL OF US CAN BENEFIT FROM....VKV

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Mar 2015, 20:26

VKV,
If I think I get carried away with my enthusiasm at times, you are even more that way

However, a composer I may be, but when it comes to expertise, in knowledge about such things, I'm still very much a learner. My experiencing a song as it is born is merely an instinctive thing. I have no proper eduacational background in CM to elaborate on it. As I have stated before, I am perhaps a bit more conscious of what is happening about the process when I write prose but when it comes to verse and songs, I'm a zero in educating others (a big thing) about what I know (or, do not know?).

Your abhimAnam (friendship and great good will) makes you say this. That's you. Thanks, but how many worthy scholars to lead us into this!

Your words are appreciated of course, and the one I can think of who really can do a very good job of it is my cousin Sujatha Vijayaraghavan, seasoned as she is in all requisites!

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 28 Mar 2015, 20:46

Dear Arasi,
I feel that at least both of us are "ABOVE" inhibitions & in my case at least reached a stage where its time to express ourselves in a true fashion! I would love to attend a session chaired by PASUPATHY WITH YOU AS MAIN SPEAKER & OTHERS who are equally knowledgeable in this forum. Actually when I came to USA in1959 I was an advanced student & was allowed to take any course I wanted to fulfil the requirements for financial aid. I took a course at Eastman School of MUSIC taught by the legendary Hoard Hanson on "ARRANGING" which analsyed how the same line in a composition like the Tenessee waltz would have been composed by DIFFERENT Composers. I could do the "technical" part well but the "instinctive " part was ANOTHER story where the composers like you are a special breed. GIVEN THE SAME INFORMATION LIKE "Adikara Nandi" procession in Kapaleeswarar Temple which I have witnessed so many times WHAT SIVAN saw in that is worlds apart from what I could even imagine....VKV

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 28 Mar 2015, 20:48

Thanks again for your faith in me

Yes, indeed, Pasupathy!