CREATIVITY, VALUES and THE ULTIMATE, in the experience of Karnataka Music.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 23 Feb 2015, 13:37

CREATIVITY, VALUES and THE ULTIMATE, in the experience of Karnataka Music.

Posting of Sri K.V.Chellapa Sir and Sri VKV Sir, set me into thinking. I am posting the results of the thinking, perception and realization, the truth.
Creativity is of three kinds:
1. Highest State: Efforts to perceive, realize, practice in the existing; deliver re creative pleasure; utilization of existing creative tools to achieve the ultimate rasaanubhuti or aesthetic of Naada and being Naada Brahman.
2. Middle State: Efforts to perceive, realize, practice in the new variants and extensions of the existing; deliver re creative pleasure in the original creativity of using the values of the creative tools.
3. First State: Efforts to perceive, realize, practice in the existing; deliver re creative pleasure; reposed values on the creative tools itself as means and ends.
To establish clarity and understanding, let us consider relationship of ethical values and moral behaviors:
1. Highest State: Yogi realizing the very inner self as most sacred; exploring and seeking; being rest in inner self beyond ethical values and moral behavior; self attaining temporal pleasure of nirvana; being in search of truth; relentlessly pursuing very being nirvana state, selflessly, the truth.
Practitioners and rasikas with belief and practice of making best use of sampradaya as an instrument to attain the highest value of excellence, verily as ends.
2. Middle state: Yogi living in sacred places or regions; rest in ethical values and moral behavior; exploring and seeking; worship of outer self with lightening flashes of inner self radiance; being with the set belief of nirvana in the anew, afresh, animated pleasure.

Practitioners and rasikas, set with belief and practice of inheriting sampradaya and creatively enhancing, belief of very creativity, as ends in itself.
3. First state: Yogi living in sacred places or regions doing penance; content with ethical values; worship of outer self; deriving pleasure in animated state of awaiting nirvana; unmindful of immoral behavior.

Practitioners and rasikas set with belief and practice of safe keeping the inherited sampradaya as ends in itself.

To the question, is there a worst state? Clearly and firmly, yes.
4. Worst state: Belief of success equated with popular and mass appeal; its derivative pleasure; using creative tools to kindle sensuous pleasure in excitement and wonderment as means and ends; in self gratification, nirvana; permissiveness in unethical values and immoral behavior.

Yogi, being rest in rituals, resorting to magic, reveling in effects of occult worship; resultant fame, popularity and physical wealth as nirvana.

Practitioners and rasikas, seeking and indulging in acts of invoking excitement and sensuous pleasure in the modulated, enhanced tones and sounds.

munirao2001

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 23 Feb 2015, 21:41

Dear Sri. Muni Rao,
Your explanation is interesting. BUT if one wants to really discuss these things in a fundamental & scientific fashion( as understood by Science today) one has to get into what we know about the brain (fairly well understood)& what we call mind which is still a matter of speculation. NOT JUST INDIA the whole world from days of ADAM& EVE has wondered, studied & speculated; Many of the things cxlaimed in India have been DISPROVED simply studying blood flow to the brain etc. So we have to first classify "TRUTH" into "SUBJECTIVE" & "OBJECTIVE TRUTH" to even understand for example WHY IS A PICASSO PICASSO?.....Study of ANTHROPLOGY, RELATIVITY OF LANGUAGES, + AT LEAST A POOR MAN'S STUDIES OF BRAIN & MIND ARE NECESSARY NOT TO MENTION RESEARCH AT MAHAVISHNU LEVEL!.....VKV

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 24 Feb 2015, 12:46

VKV Sir,
My submission is based on the perceptions and realizations, with the identity of four states of sense of mind and not based on the way the brain works, physically but metaphysically, Mind:Chitta-Intellect; Budhi-analytic and discursive;Ahamkara-individuation;Manas-sensitive,imaginative and creative.
Perceptions and realizations identified are:"to attain the highest value of excellence, verily as ends."; "belief of very creativity, as ends in itself.";"belief and practice of safe keeping the inherited sampradaya as ends in itself.";"seeking and indulging in acts of invoking excitement and sensuous pleasure". Perceptions-Realizations-Values-Actions/Behavior in relationship and results are given the identity for clarity and understanding. The objective is for value judgment and actions.

munirao2001

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 24 Feb 2015, 22:16

munirao2001 wrote:VKV Sir,
My submission is based on the perceptions and realizations, with the identity of four states of sense of mind and not based on the way the brain works, physically but metaphysically, Mind:Chitta-Intellect; Budhi-analytic and discursive;Ahamkara-individuation;Manas-sensitive,imaginative and creative.
Perceptions and realizations identified are:"to attain the highest value of excellence, verily as ends."; "belief of very creativity, as ends in itself.";"belief and practice of safe keeping the inherited sampradaya as ends in itself.";"seeking and indulging in acts of invoking excitement and sensuous pleasure". Perceptions-Realizations-Values-Actions/Behavior in relationship and results are given the identity for clarity and understanding. The objective is for value judgment and actions.
munirao2001

MY RESPONSE: Dear Sri.Muni Rao, What you have written is JARGON relevent in India. THERE ARE SIMILAR THINGS FROM EVERY CULTURE, CIVILIZATION & COUNTRY. BUT I AM INTERESTED IN "PROVABLE" THINGS" BEYOND THESE. ALL these explanations to me are SPECULATIONS. I am not questioning ANYONE'S beliefs & statements as there is NO agreement or proof....VKV

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 25 Feb 2015, 01:06

Jargon relevance Vs Science relevance.

cacm · Post by **cacm** » 25 Feb 2015, 03:16

VK RAMAN wrote:Jargon relevance Vs Science relevance.

I like your SPINX OR COFUSIUS OR TIRUVALLUVAR LIKE BREVITY levels of PROFOUND Truths? Pray elaborate for the sake of lesser mortals! VKV

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 25 Feb 2015, 16:02

VKV Sir,
"Jargon" and 'relevant only to India' No Sir. Perceptions and experiences are universal. I did explain each perception and experience, briefly, with identity sensing no need for detailed explanation of the obvious. If you have questions, you are most welcome and I will make sincere attempt in giving the answers.
The very goal of this thread is for establishing the understanding and objective is for enriching experience, free from Pride and Prejudice.

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 25 Feb 2015, 17:14

VKV Sir,

Let me discuss the two main issues, 1.Metaphysical divisions and identity of the mind. 2. Proof on perceptions and experiences given the identity.

1.Metaphysical divisions and identity of the mind: First, with my very limited knowledge, research on the brain and its works-mind based on the metaphysical phenomena is being done and already papers have been published. A change from earlier history of science rejecting this phenomena. Fact is that many scientific inquiries had begun for unknown elements in the physical matters. Brain as a physical organ and matter is beyond doubt and proven. But, mind as a work of the brain or independent of the work of the brain is being investigated with research. Metaphysics assumes, mind as independent of the works of the brain. Brain, the matter and the mind, the substance. Power of the mind is enormous and human history has proven. Thought origin is explained scientifically but, intelligence and its various facets and aspects are in the realm of the research. Through observation and experience, the thinking and their stream have been given the identity only for the ease of the understanding, metaphysically. 'Intelligence/Intellect'; 'discursive and analytic'; 'individuation or ego'; 'imagination and creativity', all the works of the mind are all well established and proven facts.

2. Proof on perceptions and experiences given the identity:
2.1. State or attempt to attain 'the Excellence, as very end': Artists who create the works of excellence, for their own pleasure and such works also giving pleasure to the seeker, impersonally, seeking no other material pleasure with sacred 'intent'.
2.2. State of sense of mind with the 'belief that very creativity, as end': Artists who are constantly attempting creation, unmindful of the value creation, creativity resulting in self gratification with 'content' focus and also universal gratification, of a group or number of rasikas.
2.3. State of sense of mind with the belief and practice of safe keeping the inherited sampradaya as ends in itself: Artists who think their inherited and acquired knowledge and its practices of great values will result in one's own pleasure and universal pleasure with the ideal of conformism and their dharma is for giving the recall pleasure, also with focus on 'content' unmindful of the enrichment continuously happening.
2.4. Sate of sense of mind seeking and indulging in acts of invoking excitement and sensuous pleasure: Artists with attachment of highest value for the success and its resultant material benefits and pleasure, entertaining the rasikas as a means for success, unmindful of the effect on the values of the great art they are practicing with 'delivery' in focus. Justifying their actions as they serve and meet the demand of the rasikas for such pleasure and it is not their concern on any other issues or matters of art and its right practices.

I will stop with these explanations and will not name the artists, even if it is requested or demanded. I am aware that rasikas can make their own judgment with out pride and prejudice affectations.

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 05 Mar 2015, 12:07

I desired and sought a good discussion on this vital aspect of Classical Music. Why with the exception of VKR and VKV, none have shown interest? I am curious and also disappointed. Can I expect discussions to follow ?

munirao2001

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 06 Mar 2015, 16:09

A simplistic reaction from me about lo..ong posts in general (not with Munirao's posts alone):

They are put aside 'for reading later' in active fora like these. If more such long posts follow, they also go into the pending pile. If the posts are full of deliberations, then we postpone further, in our reading them. I have read many of Munirao's such posts, but simply cannot keep up with them!

We live in a 'rapid everything' age. Younger rasikAs are geared to short and crisp messages. If they are to be included in sharing any interesting thoughts, the posts need to be a little brief.

Even older rasikAs, however important these thoughts may be, hesitate to take part because of the cycles of thought which seem to occur one after the other--one or two do jump in, and still, we don't see much
progress...

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 06 Mar 2015, 17:33

arasi
When I start a new topic thread, I desire to share my knowledge. The goal and objective is always for enriching experience for discerning rasikas of one of the greatest art forms in human history, Karnatka Sangeetha. To establish the clarity and understanding, I try to post the necessary information to substantiate or explain. It makes a demand of serious engagement. I am seriously worried with myths and misconceptions affecting the practice and also the ultimate pleasure this great art form bestows. I sincerely believe, it will be helpful. I always check on the number of words, as a habit, as I write articles for publishing in music magazines.
Can I expect questions or valuable inputs from all those who are seriously minded and purposefully engage in discussions?

munirao2001

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 06 Mar 2015, 19:31

One small suggestion - make simple sentences so mortals like us can easily understand IMHO.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 07 Mar 2015, 11:17

VKRaman,
I appreciate your sincere suggestion. All of us here, discerning rasikas, are equal. But the problem is that I consciously try to keep it as simple as it is possible, believe me. Let me understand and take corrective action. Please select the sentence(s) which you have considered as complex or not simple and bring it to my attention for review and future construction of sentences.

munirao2001

Pratyaksham Bala · Post by **Pratyaksham Bala** » 07 Mar 2015, 15:41

Précis writing of the above post!
"Thanks. I do try to keep the sentences simple. But, help me to learn; please point out a few sentences that you consider complex."

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Mar 2015, 15:43

Munirao,
I'm puzzled. You say we are all equal, and it does not seem to be so. Otherwise, why VKR, me and several others feel that your posts are not easy to discern? As you have mentioned yourself, they perhaps belong in music journals.

I do agree there are a number of brilliant minds on the fora. May be, they are not the sort who go for this kind of intellectual procession of ideas (that's why perhaps it makes you complain that there are no takers for your expositions).

In the majority, we are fairly intelligent folks but very few of us can call ourselves intellectuals. Then, not all intellectuals that we find here may have a taste for the sort of topics which interest you or, your line of thought--just as not all scientists are interested in the same topics.

I am neither an intellectual nor a scientist. So, what VKR says resonates very well with me...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 07 Mar 2015, 15:46

PB,
Our posts crossed.
Will make a conscious effort myself

I see that some of my posts are long too

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 07 Mar 2015, 17:30

arasi/VKR/Prathyaksham Bala

* Don't believe in 'image' and 'identity', they misrepresent or mislead.
* My choice, the issues affecting quality or enrichment, needing attention, action.
* What complexity in my posting.
* Posting here, article for magazine, differ.
* Good judgment is relation, success of thought and meaning.

munirao2001

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 07 Mar 2015, 21:31

Muniraoji,
Kindly pardon me. I have read and re-read your (first) post and could not make out as to what you want to convey.
These are my questions.
1. The heading 'Karnataka music' is jarring. Karnataka is not Carnatic.
2. 'Ultimate' 'being nAda brahman', 'nirvana' etc are esoteric and better not discussed at intellectual level.
3. What is 'deliver re creative pleasure'?
4. What are the creative tools you have in mind?
5. What is new variants? What are the extensions?
6. What is original creativity?
7. What are the 'values of creative tools'?
8. What is meant by' 'reposed values'
9. How moral behaviour forms part of discussions by rasikas - unless these values are impinging on delivery of music.
10. Are we trying to classify musicians according to moral behaviour?
11. What is the relevance of 'yogi' here? And then you go on to add that you have some names in mind and that you would not disclose. If so, the whole topic seems to revolve around laying down ground rules for Higher - Middle - First and Worst stages. If so, what is the aim of the exercise - to classify artists?
12. What is meant by 'being rest in inner self'?
13. What is the temporal pleasure - in terms of music?
14. What is meant by 'highest values of excellence'?
15. What is meant by 'living in sacred places or regions'?
16. Exploring and seeking what?
17. What is meant by 'worship of outer self'?
18. What is meant by 'lightning (hopefully not lighetening) flashes of inner self radiance?
19. What is meant by 'deriving pleasure in animated state of nirvana'?
20. What is meant by 'belief of success'? What is the derivative pleasure?
21. What is meant by 'sensuous pleasure' in relation of music?
22. What is the relevance of practicing magic, rest in rituals, occult worship?
23. What is the relevance of popularity in regard to nirvana?

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 07 Mar 2015, 21:53

Dear Sri Munirao,

The postings are not very easy to understand-It is very abstract and difficult to appreciate.No doubt the sentences send us for deeper introspection.In case there is no response,it means that readers have found it difficult to immediately react.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 09 Mar 2015, 10:40

hnbhagvan Sir,
V.Govindan Sir has by raising the questions, has shown the right way for a discussion. I am posting the replies to all the 23 questions. One can judge based on my answers.
munirao2001.

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 09 Mar 2015, 12:01

hnbhagvan Sir,
V.Govindan Sir has by raising the questions, has shown the right way for a discussion. I am posting the replies to all the 23 questions. One can judge based on my answers.
munirao2001.

OMG!

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 09 Mar 2015, 17:20

Dear Sri V. Govindan Sir,
I am grateful for the value time given. I am giving the answers to all the questions, as given below:

1. The heading 'Karnataka music' is jarring. Karnataka is not Carnatic:
Karnataka regions in the rule of Nayak’s, became Carnatic, in the British rule times. Nayak rulers supported the ‘Bhakthi’ music movement based on the Dasa Sahithya, with elements of nascent ‘art’ form. Tanjore ruler’s patronage to Maha Vidwans to develop the ’art’ form for teaching and practice, based on the works of Purandara Dasa and other great musicologists, resulted in the identity of ‘art’ form, different from the pre existing Pann and Arayar Isai in the tamilzh regions, identity of Karnataka Sangeetha.

2. 'Ultimate' 'being nAda brahman', 'nirvana' etc are esoteric and better not discussed at intellectual level:
Vedanta taught the ultimate in truth is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA. Karnataka Music goals are 1. Attainment of SAT-CHIT-ANANDA, Brahmatva, the idealism and metaphysical. 2. Pleasure of Mano Ranjakatvam, the materialism and physical. State of Nada Brahmatva is attainment and rest in Pure conscious with sense of fulfillment of pristine and pure moment(s) of Self abnegation, silence arisen out of Nadanubhavam, realized in awareness.

3. What is 'deliver re creative pleasure’? :
First experience of original in creativity resulting in pleasure is memorized. Memory, creates urge and yearning for the repetitive or more experiences. Artist, in creativity of such pleasure of the original creativity, only re creates. With success, delivers re creative pleasure.

4. What are the creative tools you have in mind? :
Manodharma Sangeetham of Karanataka Sangeetha has created the tools-1. Alaapana-Raaga. 2. Tana. 3. Keertana and Kruthi. 4. Niraval. 5. Pallavi. 6. Svara prastara/kalpana.

5. What are new variants? What are the extensions? :
Sangati ornamentations and change in the kaalapramana-Madhyama;Turita;Vilamba;Ati Vilamba.

6. What is original creativity?
Artist creating, afresh, anew-not in existence, using the established manodharma and its tools. Also, creating a new tool itself, which is yet to happen in Karnataka Sangeetha.

7. What are the 'values of creative tools'? :
1. Aalaapna-Raaga- Rasa or aesthetic of svara-Grha, Nyasa and moorchana/ their combinations, raaga bhaavam- delineation restricted to the composition of choice, exposition not restricted to the chosen composition; 2. Tana- Harmony in relationship between inherent bio rhythm/laya and created expressions of rhythm/laya, outer. 3. Keertana and Kruthi- Beauty and aesthetic of composition based on the patanthara, its potentialities and possibilities for sangati ornamentation. 4. Niraval- Vidwath and skills in delivery of sahithya and sangeetha bhavam and laya. 5. Pallavi- Vidwat and skills in delivery. 6. Svaraprastara/Kalpana – proportion and combination of kalpita and kalpana.

8. What is meant by' 'reposed values'? :
Artist’s set belief on the method or manner of using the creative tool and its result on the delivery of pleasure.

9. How moral behavior forms part of discussions by rasikas - unless these values are impinging on delivery of music? :
In relationship, between the artist and the rasikas - in delivery and its receptivity; attainment of pleasure and its partaking with other(s)

10. Are we trying to classify musicians according to moral behavior? :
Action and outcome, results of set beliefs and its practices based on the ethics and morality related to the chosen art and its practice.

11. What is the relevance of 'yogi' here? And then you go on to add that you have some names in mind and that you would not disclose. If so, the whole topic seems to revolve around laying down ground rules for Higher - Middle - First and Worst stages. If so, what is the aim of the exercise - to classify artists? :
Karnataka Sangeetha as an art form and its practice is also yoga on its own, unity of self with universal self, in partaking the pleasure and also in relationship with Religion/Mata and Philosophy/Vedanta, metaphysically. I have stated that every rasika, in freedom, can make the judgment and do not intend to condition with my choice. The goal is attainment of sense of self fulfillment and the objective is envisioning and enrichment; defining states for judgment; will for desiring and supporting excellence.

12. What is meant by 'being rest in inner self'? :
Metaphysically, three states of consciousness are pure, inner and outer, its influences. State of inner is lower to the pure, but higher to the outer in relationship to the attainment of the mind-stillness; minimal swaying and better control; higher swaying and lose control.

13. What is the temporal pleasure - in terms of music? :
Experience of momentary pleasure arising out of either sahithya bhavam or sangeetha bhaavam, but not seeking to treasure the experience in memory for its recall pleasure, later, is temporal pleasure in music.

14. What is meant by 'highest values of excellence'?
Highest values of excellence are achievement and realization; standards; its potential for pleasure, in continuum.

15. What is meant by 'living in sacred places or regions'?
Being in the locations with the images and identity of sacredness attributed or attached to it and also resultant attainment or realization.

16. Exploring and seeking what? :
Ananda, the bliss.

17. What is meant by 'worship of outer self'?
The sense of mind ever focused on external factor, influences, images, authority, seeking end of the problem or pleasure, in prayer.

18. What is meant by 'lightning (hopefully not lighetening) flashes of inner self radiance? :
The state of mind in realization of the sense of inner self without the premeditated thought caused by the pure conscious of intuition or instinct- a kind of enlightenment.

19. What is meant by 'deriving pleasure in animated state of nirvana'? :
Meaning the state of selflessness, in metaphysical but with attachment to the physical.

20. What is meant by 'belief of success'? What is the derivative pleasure?
Meaning, being with the sense of mind having achieved or obtained internally; the sense of mind with belief of achievement or securing in the saying or declaration of the other(s), externally. The happiness or the pleasure arisen out of such states of mind, in influence of internal and external factors.
21. What is meant by 'sensuous pleasure' in relation of music?
Meaning, that senses in perception and determination of the pleasure, emotionally without the self controller determining the intrinsic quality of music.
22. What is the relevance of practicing magic, rest in rituals, occult worship? :
Relevance is in its relationship with make belief; happiness derived in unquestioning and routine acts; belief or imagining a supernatural power or phenomena, normal changing into supreme, in an individual.

23. What is the relevance of popularity in regard to nirvana?
Nirvana, in the sense of relief, end of strife with the new status sensed or achieved.

VG Sir, if unconvincing, please question until such time you have got the answer.

munirao2001

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 09 Mar 2015, 18:46

munirao2001 wrote: 2. 'Ultimate' 'being nAda brahman', 'nirvana' etc are esoteric and better not discussed at intellectual level:
Vedanta taught the ultimate in truth is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA. Karnataka Music goals are 1. Attainment of SAT-CHIT-ANANDA, Brahmatva, the idealism and metaphysical. 2. Pleasure of Mano Ranjakatvam, the materialism and physical. State of Nada Brahmatva is attainment and rest in Pure conscious with sense of fulfillment of pristine and pure moment(s) of Self abnegation, silence arisen out of Nadanubhavam, realized in awareness.

munirao2001

Let us deal with one at a time. I have already raised a new topic on your definition of 'Karnataka Sangeetham'.

I had suggested that esoteric subjects like 'brahman' etc may not be discussed. However, you have given definitions. Who can vouch for or reject these by simple arguments? Great thinkers like Adi Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhvacharya have deliberated on the subject and their different opinions are there to see.

Even as regards, nAda brahmatva, my humble question is - is there any person who can claim to be in that state? Even if such a claim is made, is there any method of verification? Therefore, I am at loss to understand as to why we are even entering into the subject. My only submission is that this is called 'vAcAmagOcara'. Why bring it to the level of vAk and begin squabbling?

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Mar 2015, 18:55

Govindan,

I thought I had done a good graphic here, but when I posted it, it was all a jumble, taking away the whole sense of it. So, I stop...

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Mar 2015, 19:07

So, from the box (yes, that was what it was), I will move on to a story: Bala, I will be brief.

Plumber came. Replaced old faucet (tap). Thanks, I said, and out of habit, asked if I could keep the sheet of instructions in the package. He says, opening out the sheet with illustration of hundreds of parts. "Sure, if you are going to dissemble it and assemble it again after the warranty runs out!"

The water flows freely. What do I care!

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 09 Mar 2015, 20:12

Lovely poetry.

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 09 Mar 2015, 20:47

Arasi,
And you say you are not intellectual!
Well - 'Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
I have rushed in; let me see how I can retrieve myself.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Mar 2015, 21:35

You have rushed in? No way!
Well, if I were an intellectual, I'd have rushed in earlier, instead of trying to fashion a box or write prose (poetry? Thanks, Chellappa

).

Now that we are hearing the word 'tools' a lot, I'm afraid my mind conjures up a factory where parts are made to fit in to make a whole--of what?

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 09 Mar 2015, 22:01

Sewage charge will increase if we allow water to flow freely without control!!!!!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Mar 2015, 22:03

VKR,

What I meant was--let music flow without any encumbrance...

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 10 Mar 2015, 04:18

100% with you. I was just reminded of our city water charges and my forgetting to turn off, more of making fun of my forgetfulness.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 10 Mar 2015, 17:25

Arasi,
Your story for illustration-faucet, sheet of instructions, hundreds of parts, warranty expiry, very aptly conveys the very critical problem of myth making in KM practice, even though unintentional.

munirao2001

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 10 Mar 2015, 18:46

MKR, if I remember right, was working at his publishing house when Joseph Campbell came out with his book on myths. He may want to say something in this thread, if not in the other

Munirao,
My old brain was not very sharp even in my youth to indulge in high brow discussions. I should keep quite now, I guess. My only concern is music, if anything, in this context.
Listening to it and making some will suffice...

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 11 Mar 2015, 10:21

munirao2001 wrote: 9. How moral behavior forms part of discussions by rasikas - unless these values are impinging on delivery of music? :
In relationship, between the artist and the rasikas - in delivery and its receptivity; attainment of pleasure and its partaking with other(s)

10. Are we trying to classify musicians according to moral behavior? :
Action and outcome, results of set beliefs and its practices based on the ethics and morality related to the chosen art and its practice.

munirao2001

It is normally accepted that private lives of individuals - in whichever profession - is not to be discussed publicly unless that behaviour militates against the very fundamentals of the society or it seriously impinges on the practice of the profession. We cannot accept an inebriated physician to perform a surgery - no matter what kind of control he has over his person. Similarly drunken driving which results in accidents.

That being the case, how come we raise such topics as rasikas - pertaining to performing arts - with particular reference to Music?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 11 Mar 2015, 11:02

VGovindan Sir

Rasikas, give scarce resources of time and money-directly or indirectly to the practitioners of art. Their actions are in support of art and its practitioners. They earn the right to partake the pleasure the art and the practitioners gives them. Art is for upliftment and enrichment of lives. This makes the demand on the character and conduct. Character and conduct creates or enhances the values.

Art practitioner desiring and aspiring the patronage and support for their living and well being, making the demand of the resources, has responsibility for upholding the values and also its delivery. Rasikas also have the responsibility of quality in listening, visualizing and expressions of critical appreciation. Primary role and responsibility lies with the practitioner and secondary role and responsibility lies with the rasika.

Art practitioner, going public-to rasika, while deriving its own pleasure of patronage and support, can not wish away the public-rasika's interest in the private life of the practitioner, as they are in relationship. When any one of them in relationship cause loss in avowed value, the break is inevitable.
Art practitioner, not going public-to rasika, is rest in his own search and actions in pursuit of the pleasure. Public-Rasikas should not interfere in any manner with such practitioner's private life.

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 11 Mar 2015, 11:31

Arasi
You are a poet and naturally sensitive. Poet has licence to imagine, communicate and even exaggerate for the sake of emotional expression. Pl continue to participate in the discussion with your insights. I seized an opportunity to express. Your withdrawal will prevent the benefit, knowledge sharing, young and enthusiastic members of our forum, the goal and objective of this discussion.

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 12 Mar 2015, 12:52

‘ESOTERIC’ and its relation to ART and Experience.
V.Govindan Sir,
Shall we inquire and understand ’esoteric’ first, before understanding its relation to art, its experience, ultimately its values.
The term and meaning, emanates from the foundation of belief, one’s own or seamlessly, in universal. Believing is based only on truth, not on rare of the rarest, in fact. Believing the truth, one becomes a being in confusion and conflict, in every moment of awareness. Awareness is freedom from the past and fear of the future, perception of the present. Result of belief, a religious, is unity and also difference, termed as unique. Reality in conflict, it is the result of will. Will, is determination. Determination is out of choice. Choice is result of desire and confusion. Desire and comfort, of fulfillment or non-fulfillment, creates and fuels fear. Fear is in heat and flame. Heat of thought in the conditioned mind is with the flame of passion and action of violence-oral or written.
Thought resulting in harmony; not contradictory; harmony of oneness of one’s own and universal conscious; is religion. Living with this harmony of the mind, is religious life. Leading religious life, one gets the insight. Insight destroys illusion of image, authority, fear of non conformism. Insight comes in to being with end to conformism and their patterns. In perception, with insight. Rest in perception, is awareness. Being in awareness is intelligence. Being with intelligence is intellect. Intellect results in extra-sensory experience. Experience result in being with maturity, sensitivity, attention, envisioning. Envisioning is awakening. Awakening destroys the belief, illusion and fear of the unknown-image and authority. Extra sensory experience of being not conscious-outer and inner or aware but insight of pure conscious moments is self abnegation or without the awareness of the self, self of ‘I’ consciousness or ego. Extra ordinary moment(s) of insight of pure conscious, is supreme. Supreme is Brahman. Being supreme is Brahmatva. Experience arisen out of naada is Naada Brahmatva. Experienced human is Naada Brahman. This insight, destroying the belief, image, identity gives the meaning and realization. Realization ends the belief of ‘esoteric’, its elusiveness and results in inclusiveness. Inclusiveness is of equality. Equality is in omnipresence and omnipotence.
Let us take one belief for the clarity and understanding. Belief of image and authority of ARI- a personification of tradition and its practice; a system of practice; a practice of a pattern; a pattern of an order and quality of ARI’s music as supreme. This belief promoted and cultivated becomes authority. Authority establishes sense of security. Rest in, deep attachment and possessiveness to sense of security. Attachment and possessiveness promotes and demands conformism. Any action, in non conformism is rejected to remain firmly with sense of security. Rejection is defended with violence-oral or written text. What is amiss is – sensitive perception of beauty, its quality in the happening moments; non conformism to the sampradaya (misunderstood as also tradition); creation of change from the past; inherent order in manodharma distinct from order of an established pattern; insight on intent, content and delivery in a performance.

Vedavyasa opens Brahmasutra with the declaration that Brahman is sabdavachya. Concept and state of Brahman, Brahmatva, Naada Brahma are not 'vachama gochara' but Thyagaraja wonders ' mahima, varnimpa tarama ?

This very important observation needed a detailed reply, reply containing 550 words.

munirao2001

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 12 Mar 2015, 16:59

Concept and state of Brahman, Brahmatva, Naada Brahma are not 'vachama gochara'....

Muniraoji,
When I said 'vAcAmagOcara', I meant the proof. I asked as to why should we bring it to vAk and start squabbling. We are doing exactly the same - squabbling. Suffice it to say that 'naishA tarkENa matirApanEyA'.

Who can vouch for or reject these by simple arguments? Great thinkers like Adi Sankara, Ramanuja and Madhvacharya have deliberated on the subject and their different opinions are there to see.

Even as regards, nAda brahmatva, my humble question is - is there any person who can claim to be in that state? Even if such a claim is made, is there any method of verification? Therefore, I am at loss to understand as to why we are even entering into the subject. My only submission is that this is called 'vAcAmagOcara'. Why bring it to the level of vAk and begin squabbling?

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 12 Mar 2015, 17:48

VGovindan Sir,

Brahmananda, is moment of loss of awareness of the self and its affectations. In the context of Indian Classical Music, in particular Karnataka Sangeetha, the power of the naada resulting in self abnegation moment(s), 'AH' moment. This experience is rare of the rarest in occurrence. Mind with ease of comfort and convenience, recognizes 'Aha' moment itself as ananda, the bliss. But it is only pleasure. For evidence, one has to recall such moments in one's own experience or authentic version of the other(s) about such experience. The need to communicate is to share. With the knowledge and awareness, the listener's attention span enhances. Listener experiencing high quality of classicism, in expectation, will not miss out such moments. This enriching experience will also be shared. A larger population of rasikas will experience.

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 13 Mar 2015, 12:15

VGovindan Sir,

I wanted to discuss about my observation. Your deep study of Thyagaraja compositions, its sahithya bhavam, set belief of an authority resulting in your conditioning of the mind that discussion on a subject beyond the mind, matter and its expressions through 'vak', rejection of experiences of others, lead to questioning the need. I am interested to check the veracity of my observation.

munirao2001

vgovindan · Post by **vgovindan** » 14 Mar 2015, 00:26

Muniraoji,
To use the metaphor of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, I am like a salt doll standing at the beach fearing to enter into the sea, because I have been warned that I will no more be there to cognise myself and therefore, not be able to express myself. I do not want to 'lose' myself as yet. I also have come to understand that - what you term as - Brahmananda is known only to a doll which has entered into the sea - if it still remains a doll. I am positive that it surely is not the 'AH' moments because AH is nothing more than a titillation of mind, if not the nerves.

yatra hi dvaitamiva bhavati
taditara itaraM jighrati,
taditara itaraM paSyati,
taditara itaraM SruNoti,
taditara itaramabhivadati,
taditara itaraM manutE,
taditara itaraM vijnAnAti;

yatra vA asya sarvam-AtmaivAbhUt-
tat-kEna kaM jighrEt?
tat-kEna kaM paSyEt?
tat-kEna kaM SruNuyAt?
tat-kEna kamabhivadEt?
tat-kEna kaM manvIt?
tat-kEna kaM vijAnIyAt?

yEnaiva sarvaM vijAnAti taM kEna vijAnIyAt?
vijnAtAramarE kEna vijAnIyAditi || 14 || bRhadAraNyaka Upanishad II.iv.

Because when there is duality, as it were, then one smells something, one sees something, one hears something, one speaks something, one thinks something, one knows something. (But) when to the knower of brahman everything has become the Self, what should one see and through what, what should one hear and through what, what should one speak and through what, what should one speak and through what, what should one know and through what? Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known - through what, O Maitreyi, should one know the knower?
(Translation by Swami Madhavananda - Advaita Ashrama Publication.)

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 14 Mar 2015, 04:09

I understand brahmananda as the opposite, total awareness of the self to the exclusion of any second.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 14 Mar 2015, 04:51

Many of the rasikas here are neither PHds/Scientists nor Engineers/Pundits. Ivy League Vs High school intellectuals. Where are we going with topic. Good luck to everyone who can digest this.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 14 Mar 2015, 19:43

VGovindan Sir,

I have already answered. But for clarity, the state when the mind is in stillness, stillness is of total absence of thought. In absence of thought and its works of the Self. It is selfless moment(s) and blissful on awakening and realization. When you witness immense beauty striking, you are lost in such vision, it is described as 'AH' moment. 'AH' moment is rare of the rarest, but happens and are experienced both by the Performer and the rasika. Performer and rasika with the ideal of 'Ananda', yearn for such moment(s). This ideal and its fulfillment being possible only in the music influencing on one's Chitta /intellect, is given the identity of 'Kala Ratnam', 'Classical'. Ananda in realization, energizes, enables 'sattva' guna changing the perspective of living and quality of life with contentment. When one achieves the state of selfless moment, in continuum individual transformation takes place. Such transformed individuals lead by example and usher in collective transformation.

munirao2001

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 14 Mar 2015, 19:49

VKRaman Sir,

The quality time given in discussions is to achieve clarity and understanding. In realization, enriching experience of Karnataka Sangeetham listening. Individuals in attainment of pleasure, working for the upliftment of others, uninitiated. With outreach successful, well serving the cause of continued growth and development of an art form-Karnataka Sangeetham.

munirao 2001

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 14 Mar 2015, 20:14

I don't know if at this rate, karnataka sangeetha will soon be called by some (at least by those who do not know it) as a 'kult'--the way we keep on insisting on its being this or that, or more, which all the time gets to be more beyond my reach intellectually and spiritually.

Munirao,
Poet or not, I don't think I'm a sensitive plant

Ponbhairavi · Post by **Ponbhairavi** » 15 Mar 2015, 16:24

I tried my best to follow the discussion but I have given up as it is steadily soaring to higher levels. But somehow it reminded me of a french play "the rhinoceros " by IONESCO . an extract of a part of dialog in tamil is given in another thread :critics and rasikas.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 16 Mar 2015, 11:22

ponbhairavi,

Sri Govindan Sir has followed the right way in a discussion by raising questions and seeking answers. Seeker has to reject the conditioning of the mind, conditioning of sense of mind-lower and higher levels. Reject images, reputations and authority, without disrespect. In freedom, seek the information and establish the clarity and understanding. Your own perception of insights will shatter the beliefs and will result in achieving sense of fulfillment, the ultimate in reality.

munirao2001

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 20 Mar 2015, 17:43

Raoji,

I fully understand what you say. To substantiate the point I quote the following:

“The only difference between image and idea is thus that in the one case, the expression of the object is confused, and in the other, it is clear. The confusion comes from this: every movement envelops in itself the infinity of the movements of the universe; and the brain receives an infinity of modifications to which only a confused thought can correspond, enveloping the infinity of clear ideas that would correspond to each detail. Clear ideas are therefore contained in the confused ideas. They are unconscious; they are perceived without being apperceived. Only their sum total is apperceived; this appears simple to us because of our ignorance of its components.”
― Jean-Paul Sartre, The Imagination

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 24 Mar 2015, 11:44

Chalanata Sir
In confusion, sense of mind is loaded with information, choices, struggling with doubts. Freedom is lost. Desire to break free for the clarity, choice, determination and action arises. Dissatisfaction or rejection of the existing knowledge leads to imagination. Imagination results in idea(s) either from the existing knowledge or a new thought or knowledge. Relationship becomes known. Discursive and analytic mind checks the idea and with its acceptance, expression, communication is resorted. Established clarity, understanding and appreciation overcomes the confusion and conviction sets on the idea. Conviction, not challenged or challenge met with thinking results in the determination. Determination gains in strength with the will. Freedom is secured. With gained freedom, idea is pursued and taken to the logical end of result and resultant benefit, to oneself and universal self.

Clear ideas are not contained in the confused ideas. Clear ideas emerge only by ending the confusion. Higher sensitivity, observation, inference, introspection and total attention results in perception. Perception of reality. Sense of mind being in reality, only ends the confusion.

Image conditions the mind. Conditioned mind finds sense of security in the image. Idea with the strength of insight, unconditions the mind. Unconditioned mind gaining the freedom rejects the image and belief(s), in relationship. Mind set free, perceives the reality. In reality, the truth.

munirao2001