MS Understood: essay in Caravan magazine by TM Krishna.

[Ananth]

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/reportage ... bbulakshmi

I couldn't figure out whether to put this under MS sub group or under TM Krishna subgroup.

Very thought provoking, even scholarly article.
And whether it dispels summer myths and misconceptions about MS or not, as it promises to, it surely changes my opinion of Krishna as a writer, which used to be, an attention-mongering snob.

[kvchellappa]

TMK has that power of expression which is appealing. His piece on MS in Krishna uvacha said clearly that MS music is classic. Here he seems to be prevaricating. I belong to the janata and have no second thoughts about it. TMK does not say here, nice of him that he is once thoughtful(?), what he thinks as a (only?) master of aeathetics.

[SrinathK]

You can put this in the MS group. It's a very well written article content wise. @MKR We have your one of a kind anecdoates that will never be found or heard elsewhere.

[Rsachi]

Masterly writing:

Just a decade after Meera, MS’s aesthetic transition was clearly visible. By the late 1950s and early 1960s, her concert tours across India had become processional, like Dasara in Mysore. They were great events, replete with social celebration and musical rejoicing. Here, the striking changes in her music are first discerned in the texture of her voice. It starts sounding heavier, even a little suppressed, as though forced into containment. Musically, the carefree abandon disappears. She still does sing those beautiful “runs,” but they sound more structured. All of a sudden, the kite is tied down by a heavy boulder.

Some may argue that this was the result of Subbulakshmi’s maturing, but I beg to differ. In the maturing of a musician, the spirit behind her music is not manipulated. With MS, there seems to have been a kind of reverse engineering: the core was dislocated in order to accommodate the realignment of mind and voice. After Meera, and her becoming a quasi-saint across India, her music had to reflect her new status.

We cannot pass judgement on matters of personal faith. But the change unquestionably affected MS’s music. She did not stop at Meera bhajans; encouraged by her husband, she acquired and recorded a wider repertoire of religious music, including the work of Tulsidas, Kabir, Nanak, Surdas and Tukaram. She also learned Rabindrasangeet. She acquired many identities in her music. When in Kolkata, she was Tagore. In Pune, she brought Tukaram to life. In Delhi, Tulsidas was reincarnated. On her home turf, in Madras, Tyagaraja sang through her.

Being all these characters was not just about surrendering personally to a godhead or philosophy. It also meant that she was reorienting the aesthetics of her art. It is one thing to learn an assortment of compositions, completely another to have to perpetually juggle musical approaches. MS was intensely involved in every work she rendered, which meant giving up something of herself to its composer, form and intent.

She was also simultaneously updating her Carnatic repertoire and expression. She learned from many greats, including the renowned musicians KS Narayanaswamy, Musiri Subramania Iyer, and Semmangudi Srinivasaier. It is said that a leading musician from Madurai, a member of the Isai Vellalar community, once remarked that MS used to sing beautifully until she came under the tutelage of two Iyers. The story is unsubstantiated, but even concocted tales can reveal something of the inner workings of the environment that produced them. It points to the underlying friction between communities in the Carnatic world. As a musician, I can only interpret it to mean that the musician felt sparkle and spirit had given way to predictability.

MS loved to sing, and to learn more and more music, whether it was Carnatic, Hindustani or even—unfortunately—English. In 1966, she was given ‘Here Under This Uniting Roof’ to sing at the United Nations on the occasion of UN Day. The song was written by C Rajagopalachari and tuned by the respected Chennai-based Western classical musician Handel Manuel. But whatever the value in their contributions, the song was musically hollow, and aesthetically limp. Did these frequent shifts cause any internal conflict? Did MS view all these roles as one and the same, or was she painting and peeling identities constantly? We cannot know how she reconciled the contradictions within herself.

Still, her expanded repertoire demands recognition for one astounding quality. Even as MS was singing songs of great diversity, she had the capacity to prevent each from being marred by the aesthetic dimensions of the other. Never was her rendition of a Muthuswami Dikshitar composition, muddled by the musicality of Rabindrasangeet; nor her offering of a Meera bhajan by lapses into the heaviness of the Carnatic accent.

- See more at: http://www.caravanmagazine.in/reportage ... p58pN.dpuf

TMK has excelled himself here. Of course I don't think he understands reverse engineering but i feel he doesn't plan to criticise the Android mimic of iOS etc.

[vgovindan]

There seems to be some fixation about the origins of MS - as if her lineage is something to be despised. I may point out that in Indian tradition music is called 'gandharva vidya' and devadasis who belong to this category (gandharva) are the true - authoritative? - exponents (and preservers) of music - CM in our case. All others who do not belong to this category, are really outsiders. nArada who is the exponent of bhakti tradition of music and tumburu - chief of gandharvas are considered at par in regard to music.

It is a pity that we have allowed this community to be decimated in the name social reform - something akin to throwing out baby with bath water.

[shankarank]

>> In the maturing of a musician, the spirit behind her music is not manipulated. With MS, there seems to have been a kind of reverse engineering: the core was dislocated in order to accommodate the realignment of mind and voice.

All familiar theme of how religiousity stifles free flow of music continuing from his book! We should ask him - Is music some God and musicality some Religion in order not to be tampered with??!! . Depending on which set of premises are used ( i.e. whether religion and god have translation and meaning in the Indian context) - this can go back and forth - question makes sense only to TMK and the answer he is forced to give, makes sense only to us or vice-versa - another kind of loop

[varsha]

There seems to be some fixation about

About TMK .
And that is a pity . When so many better things to do on a forum like this.

[SrinathK]

I don't think religion or God has anything to do with restraining your musical spirit or the manodharma. The thing was that everyone who guided MS did not want her to be aggressive with the manodharma -- the music was then geared for variety and being more composition oriented, which would appeal more easily to various audiences all over the world, many of whom would have no idea about the technicalities of music. It would also make it easier to have that world class presentation standards so admired in international circles. If you wanted to see what happens when you barged in fearlessly into manodharma, just admire the great MLV (big MLV fan here).

I have heard criticism about the so called lack of complicated laya in MS's music. But seriously, what are you going to do with lots of laya oriented "mathematics"? After many years of listening I can tell you that all of it is rehearsed stuff and it is meant to extract applause, some part of it is also attributed to searching for a landing point across several cycles in vain . Also one has to be a little careful because all those staccato phrases don't help the voice when your vocal technique is poor.

In later years, longevity, strength and stamina become factors. No one can risk throwing their voice around in their 70s as they could do in their 20s so you have to stay in your limits -- it also doesn't help that a lot of MS amma's recordings are actually from her later days. Frankly the early MS records I have show astonishing levels of manueverability.

Also one point that is not mentioned by TMK is that among MS's critics there are always going to be some conservatives who could never get used to a woman being that successful -- TMK does point out that no male musician was ever criticized for using repetitive phrases in their alapanas and swaras (and I can tell you that each musician has their own standard phrases). He makes a very good point about how vocal refinement is actually not taken so highly in Carnatic circles. I had a musician neighbour who always insisted on MLV, then DKP, then T Brinda and then MS, in that order as far as her favourites were concerned.

Plus, there is the audience and their limitations. Frankly that exercise I am doing to make my composition list was a revelation because I realized it is mentally very challenging to move beyond into unknown territory. Even after 20 years of listening, I was not familiar with more than 350 or so compositions (in fact when I came to college I was familiar with at the most 80-90 compositions only, the last 900 or so have come so only in the last 8 years, over HALF of that familiarity came only in the last 10 months ... after I got more proactive and started to listen in a more planned manner) -- you have to be really proactive as a rasika if you want to expand your musical horizons and most people will not do that. You give the audience too much of room and they will never be able to take one step beyond their usual tail ending numbers. I do not know if the the casual CM audience member is familiar with more than even 100 CM compositions on average (even there I sometimes think I am asking for too much). I don't blame them, it's a lot of effort.

That was when I realized what a monumental undertaking it is to have such a huge body of musical knowledge in one lifetime to juggle so many different genres without mixing and mashing them up. The world of Indian music is too big to cover even in multiple lifetimes, you can specialize only in so much.

@varsha, You can thank those who appear only in threads with noise and hate potential. You will not find many of them when it's time to dissect an RTP or discuss sruthi bhedam

[harimau]

Switching genres! Singing in various Indian languages for the cause of National Integration! One of the first abhang singers! Catering to regional prejudices by singing compositions of Mysore Sadasiva Rao or Jayachamaraja Wodeyar in Bangalore and Mysore!

Come on, TMK, add to your litany of complaints!

[kvchellappa]

Two comments on the article from a member of the last class in Srinathk's post:
There is reference to sadness in the post (also made by Gopal G in his speech, the two are close by the way and know MS better than I do). Maybe there was sadness. Even Gowri R mentions how MS missed her 'poranthaathu manusha'. There could be reasons for sadness, but whether that should be touched upon, I do not know. Incidentally, happiness may not be a legitimate purpose of human life (this of course is philosophical and opinions will diverge). I always felt so and found good authority to support it.
"Leo Rosten:
I cannot believe that the purpose of life is to be happy. I think the purpose of life is to be useful, to be responsible, to be compassionate. It is, above all, to matter, to count, to stand for something, to have made some difference that you have lived at all."
MS comes through shining in glory by this definition.
If she was indeed sad, her greatness looms pretty large as it never showed up in her relationship, reaction or music.
The second point is the conclusion that she is remembered, and it was so manipulated, for lighter pieces. I wonder whether this is a justifiable conclusion. I enjoy her singing all compositions. Even in UN, where her music must have been exotic as CVN mentions, she sang predominantly the heavier pieces. The number of her albums on traditional CM must be more than merely devotional. I do not know about the sales.
As for her classicism, MLV herself has written an article, and the contemporary greats have praised her truly.

[harimau]

.........
The second point is the conclusion that she is remembered, and it was so manipulated, for lighter pieces. I wonder whether this is a justifiable conclusion. I enjoy her singing all compositions. Even in UN, where her music must have been exotic as CVN mentions, she sang predominantly the heavier pieces. The number of her albums on traditional CM must be more than merely devotional. I do not know about the sales.
As for her classicism, MLV herself has written an article, and the contemporary greats have praised her truly.

Many of the recordings of MS at the Music Academy are not available even in their library or archives.

So how are we to judge the contents/quality of her music in her prime?

As she herself became immersed in religion -- and recorded the various Suprabhathams, Sahasranamams, Balaji Panchrathnamala, etc., -- it may well have been her own inclination to sing more of the bhajan type of tukkadas, though Sri Sadasivam may have played a role in that. To blame it all on her husband, when one wasn't old enough to have seen them interact with each other, is just bad conjecture.

History as written by a poor historian is the kindest way to describe this article.

[kvchellappa]

It is more about TMK's mental churnings of the world he is creating in his mind with numerous questions and no answers. MS is topical to provide an opportunity to continue his theme.

[pattamaa]

I have lot of issues with this article - right from title, content and pictures.. There is no need for the author to get into her early days, whatever said has been said and documented. This is unwarranted while her birth centenary celebration is in progress. There is no mention about huge repertoire she has in tamil compositions, trinity and other composers.. no mention about cause she supported, her philanthropic activities etc.. This article is definitely an insult to her devotees and hard core rasikas...

[girish_a]

Here's some background about Caravan magazine itself. Not suggesting that this article has to do anything with their editorial biases, but it is good to know the mentality they pander to.

http://indiafacts.co.in/hinduphobia-of-the-caravan/

[prashant]

But seriously, what are you going to do with lots of laya oriented "mathematics"? After many years of listening I can tell you that all of it is rehearsed stuff and it is meant to extract applause, some part of it is also attributed to searching for a landing point across several cycles in vain . Also one has to be a little careful because all those staccato phrases don't help the voice when your vocal technique is poor.

This statement is a little condescending to the likes of Alathur, TRS, LGJ, isn't it? A seamless marriage of arithmetic and aesthetics can be very powerful, and has it's place, along with other techniques, in every artiste's arsenal.

Are you a vocalist? Could you please expand a little bit on your definition of "poor vocal technique"(especially in the Carnatic idiom), it's link to "staccato phrasing" and consequential vocal issues? Thanks!

[prashant]

But seriously, what are you going to do with lots of laya oriented "mathematics"? After many years of listening I can tell you that all of it is rehearsed stuff and it is meant to extract applause, some part of it is also attributed to searching for a landing point across several cycles in vain . Also one has to be a little careful because all those staccato phrases don't help the voice when your vocal technique is poor.

This statement is a little condescending to the likes of Alathur, TRS, LGJ, isn't it? A seamless marriage of arithmetic and aesthetics can be very powerful, and has it's place, along with other techniques, in every artiste's arsenal.

Are you a vocalist? Could you please expand a little bit on your definition of "poor vocal technique"(especially in the Carnatic idiom), it's link to "staccato phrasing" and consequential vocal issues? Thanks!

Edit: @SrinathK: perhaps my phrasing of the above question is a bit aggressive. Sorry. The question is genuine and not meant to be a flame.

[sureshvv]

After many years of listening I can tell you that all of it is rehearsed stuff

Too bad you have heard all the wrong people, it seems.

and it is meant to extract applause,

Now you are beginning to sound like TMK himself.

The article itself is a hatchet job, with the air of confidence that the subject is not around to defend/clarify the facts.

[munirao2001]

It was refreshing and interesting to read the postings.
TMK
QUOTE ‘Musically, the carefree abandon disappears’UNQUOTE It is not only with one immensely talented young artist, but it is with all the artists the change happens and is natural, not excluding TMK. In the young and impressionistic age also ‘care and concern’ is for 'to meet the expectations of parents, guru and influential ‘opinion maker(s)’
QUOTE‘MS was intensely involved in every work she rendered’UNQUOTE Yes, absolutely.
QUOTE ‘giving up something of herself to its composer, form and intent’ UNQUOTE This is the ideal of patantara sudhatvam and its value in re creativity of the original creativity of the composer.
QUOTE ‘sparkle and spirit had given way to predictability’UNQUOTE Yes this is the challenge for all the popular artists to continue to offer recall pleasure of the compositions which pulls the rasikas to offer their support and patronage, continuum. Only few dare to be different, after gaining the popularity and being supremely confidence of their popularity.
QUOTE ‘how she reconciled the contradictions within herself’UNQUOTE MS, a great maestro, did not observe contradictions within herself but was of firm belief that ‘internalization’ was her higher aspiration over ‘externalizing’ with the responsibility of a performer offering ‘ranjakatvam’ to the rasikas. MS truly believed in the ideal of ‘Pandita and Pamara ranjakatvam’ resulting in no contradictions.

VGovindan Sir
‘Gandharva’ and ‘Gana’ are two form of music in all the works with clear identity of ‘art form’ of music and ‘other forms’ of music, respectively. Majority of devadasis were performers and only few of them were ‘true, authoritative, exponents (preservers)’. Gandharva music was being practiced not exclusively by Devadasis. In fact they were students of many great maestros, who were not from Devadasi family lineage.
QUOTE‘decimated in the name of social reform’UNQUOTE No Sir. Their total exploitation by few powerful gentry was fact and their sufferance also was fact. Reform was to restore them their human dignity and living. Their 'art' form practice suffered with shift to ‘Sabha’ from ‘sadas’ of temple and private premises, in the cities and district head quarters. Only those who could not shift due to other compulsions have suffered ignominy. Many talented artists did make a successful living as art practitioners.

KVChellappa Sir,
Legitimate purpose of life are ‘very living’ and living with sense of being in self fulfillment and striving for universal sense of fulfillment, Self in unity with pure/righteousness conscious and self in unity with universal.
MSS Amma had belief and faith in Vedanta teaching 'being with Dharma, Daya and Dana', following Sri Chandrasekara Sarawathi, Kanchi Maha Periava
advise and guidance.
Srinath Sir,
QUOTE ‘barged in fearlessly in to manodharma’ and ‘lack of complicated laya’UNQUOTE Manodharma is ‘‘Manodharma is unity of manas, sense of mind in conscious engulfed in ideation, imagination and creation and dharma, sense of mind in pure conscious or righteousness for the lakshya and lakshana and ideals of classical music’. To support manodharma art form takes resort to create and build tools-methods and systems. In the art of Karnataka Sangeetham they are Raga Alapana; Composition-Keertana/Kruthi; Tana; Niraval/Pallavi and Svara kalpana. Manodharma in practice is based on the sadhana of the kalpita, ending fear but retaining the anxiety, enabling rarest of rare moments in Kalpana. MS is also a great maestro of manodharma. Higher skills in laya exhibition/exposition, graham and sruti bhedam are personal belief and choice.
QUOTE‘voice modulation’UNQUOTE shift was perceptible in the era of ‘open throat’ singing of ‘mikeless’ cuttcheries to audio amplification assisted concerts and was the necessity of the times for all the performers, vocal and instrumentalists.

General
Opinion makers and rasikas establish ‘identity’ and ‘image’ to artists for their ease and comfort. This proves to be both advantageous and disadvantageous and both make demands and create challenges. Only few make a fine balancing.

munirao2001

[ganesh_mourthy]

ic.

As for her classicism, MLV herself has written an article, and the contemporary greats have praised her truly.

I would be happy to read such articles. It is very possible that a fellow musician will not write anything negative that he or she holds, but if they are praising a particular attribute it worth reading,coming from an educated assessment.

[kvchellappa]

Tributes to MS site has most of it.

[MaheshS]

There is no need for the author to get into her early days, whatever said has been said and documented. This is unwarranted while her birth centenary celebration is in progress.

Why? You yourself say it has been documented. I didn't know a couple of facts mentioned in the article. One, Sadasivam was still married and his wife was alive when he patronised MS. Two, regarding GNB. Not that it's going to reduce my respect for her in any way.

There is no mention about huge repertoire she has in tamil compositions, trinity and other composers.. no mention about cause she supported, her philanthropic activities etc..

What she presented in concert platform to what she knew are never going to equal itself. How many students did / does MS have to propagte her knowledge of krithis that she couldn't perform on stage? She was a performer and she performed to the audience. She performed for a lot, philonthropic activities being one of them. Maybe in the end she only did it for philonthropy. But please, lets not go over the top and refuse to acknowledge the reality.

This article is definitely an insult to her devotees and hard core rasikas...

You can take as much insult as you want, it's upto you

[kvchellappa]

Much of what TMK has written is dovetailed to his newfound sense of social and musical propriety, not as much to reality. I do not think TMK has brought any new facet of MS's life per se as analyse it angularly. No doubt it is well written. That is about its merit. Clever articulation should not be confused with purity of content or correctness of perspective.

[MaheshS]

No doubt it is well written. That is about its merit. Clever articulation should not be confused with purity of content or correctness of perspective.

So it's well written but the content is rubbish? Is that what you are trying to say?

[kvchellappa]

The content is not rubbish. It cannot be taken to be 'reality' at face value; much of it is extrapolation, guess and opinion from a perspective dear to TMK. Your like or dislike of it will depend on your bias. But, to say whatever he writes is 'reality' is an unfounded claim. He takes certain published incidents and theorises. The incidents have an element of reality, but not necessarily in the light in which it is argued.
How far will TMK lend credence to Modi's oratory? The same apples to him.

[shankarank]

Switching genres! Singing in various Indian languages for the cause of National Integration! One of the first abhang singers! Catering to regional prejudices by singing compositions of Mysore Sadasiva Rao or Jayachamaraja Wodeyar in Bangalore and Mysore!

Given the intolerance to nArayaNa nAma , a narasimha avatAr would be a good one to have .. narasimhudu...

[SrinathK]

@prashant, You forgot the first line -- context is everything :

Srinathk I have heard criticism about the so called lack of complicated laya in MS's music.

It is in the context of the criticisms and the critics that I should have responded like that. Ok, I agree with you. I think I really should have worded this much better that it didn't allow for a generalized interpretation.

I'll share my experience. See the lay audience and the melody first and bhakti first rasikas all love MS Amma's music. But when I was in some other circles, I have been privy to quite a few of all those oft-repeated criticisms in person. One thing you should know is that a person who has that level of talent to present music like MS Amma, there is frankly nothing they couldn't have done if they had tried to excel at it, it was never a lack of ability. And most critics know that. So they wonder "why not?". Of course there are some others also who in my opinion are affected with a "vyaadi" like the critics in the Pattinatthar story. At the end of the day if you don't change your music they'll call you narrow minded and when you change to suit their taste they'll say you have no musical sense of your own, never mind that some of them couldn't sing a note straight if their life depended on it.

While my TRS collections are still just a wee more than zero at the moment, it's next on the download list -- I have purchased his manodharma DVD and his javali disc as well. I have a lot of LGJ, MLV and the Alathoor brothers. Although a lot of people would say manodharma is spontaneous, it is closer to a skill like learning a language. The greater your vocabulary and ability to research, the greater your manodharma will become. In this the ability of TRS, LGJ, MMI (yes) and MLV to use their laya skill to discover new dimensions is something in a class of it's own. I do not know how many people think all that just came out of nowhere by just raw talent, but that's not all of it. Laya is also a skill, and it can be developed very systematically.

So I tell the critics, what more do you want? Much much more kannaku? Then you'll probably say, "Melodically so beautiful. Pity it sometimes devolves into just maths?" -- sometimes that happens, I have seen it, you build a magnificent edifice and then you get carried away by technical virtuosity or calculations and undo it all. (I call it maths when it tends to sacrifice the raga and bhava and well, sounds like a math recitation) So called "elite rasikas" as I have already shown elsewhere are actually a very small part of the Indian population....

Also in a lot of kanakku swaras, any extended note is usually truncated with a sharp percussive staccato (overdoing this is what causes the loss of raga bhava as the staccato cuts out any of the other gamakas and kaarvais, sometimes there is not enough note to even generate resonance or settle into pitch). When you look at musicians who preserved their voice for the longest periods, one common thing that they never did was to abuse the staccato or sing to the very limits of their range (ARI, MMI, MS, Brinda, Santhanam). You see the same thing in many other fields too -- correct form, relaxed playing, no wasted energy or tension, no abuse. Roger Federer comes to mind -- it's why he's still up there. Dakshinamurthy Pillai himself has said of MS that how would singers expect to maintain their voice for a lifetime if they use it over aggressively. I think the statement was -- "Keep doing this and your voice will go." The staccato notes of kanakkus when badly handled have been the place where many a vocalist's technique can fall of the rails. It needs good technique just like all the other aspects of singing.

To other critics who would carp about rehearsed singing, I should ask them how they get all those korvais and porutthams and kanakkus -- specifically what they would do if it was THEIR turn to do the singing? It takes a very good vocabulary and elimination of the mind and body barrier before your intuition is sufficient enough to come up with something remarkable on the spot -- speaking of TRS mama, he was quite forthright about what he thought the old generation of pallavi terrorists did to get to where they were -- he thought they rehearsed for months even. Ok, I can't be so blunt and I wouldn't say it like that, to me it's almost irreverent, but then TRS mama was well... you know, never one to hold back.

Side note : I know that korvais also have many dimensions, LGJ's uniquely innovative ones as an example. But all said and done, a complex korvai is probably the easiest way to get the adrenaline pumping in an audience, keep them guessing on the edge, finish with a high decibel fortissmo ta-di-gi-na-thom-BOOM and then listen to the shower of claps. It works every time. Even brighas don't do that these days.

All said and done, my take on calculations is this -- when you do it, do it right, please don't undo everything you've achieved before it.

Every musician changes a lot over time. It could be exposure to more music, experience in handling various genres, or a greater sensitivity to microscopic nuances, one's own definition of what they want their music to be, or what is expected out of them, or adjusting for an aging body and longevity. Ironically (or maybe it isn't ironic at all), I'd say TMK himself is doing the very same thing (re-engineering) to his own music, that he observes in MS Amma's evolution, only that he is trying to become freer. Ah how the rasikas forum just comes alive when TMK's name crops up, it seems to me that whenever I mention TMK, I must add a kind reminder for the reader to please stay calm.

PS : @kvchellappa sir, putting yourself in the last category of whatever ... in my post -- YOU said that. I did not count you among them.

[shankar vaidyanathan]

I read the article in full. I continue to think that TMK needs an editor. There is no new scholarship in that long form essay except for the paragraphs where he discusses the young MSS's prowess and the concluding paragraphs where he analyzes as a musician the transformation in her later year music to may be some sadness in living within a self chosen golden cage. He varies from his well articulated hatred of Mylapore to hearsay to unattributed "some say" type rumors to straw man arguments to puff up and destroy....bad penmanship all around. Publishing it in a place like Caravan only adds to the the questionable scholarship of intent, original research, analysis, and conclusions. Seems like an arm chair historian's attempt to selectively furnish half truths reinforced with a shrink's ability to get inside long gone people's head to reimagine. I continue to like TMK's music though!

[ganesh_mourthy]

Yes , I agree that to me it seemed like an extenion of his new found interest to write, where it glaringly sounded more verbose than a substantial article.

He is a great artiste.

Of course he has the right to write. But ...

'In writing, you must kill all your darlings.'

Meh , TMK nurtures his darlings.

[kvchellappa]

Srinathk, I love your writings even when I don't understand just as I love CM though I do not understand. I do belong to that category of musically ignorant persons and there is no modesty in it.

[shankarank]

Srinathk - Ironically (or maybe it isn't ironic at all), I'd say TMK himself is doing the very same thing (re-engineering) to his own music, that he observes in MS Amma's evolution, only that he is trying to become freer.

Some 10 to 15 years back - when TMK performed at the temple in Dayton, Ohio, in the sanniti - TMK inquired the audience - "padam pADalAmA??" There was no one who said no and many yes's - AhA paDalamE? He has always been free. He has the stage on a platter to himself long back - even if he did some acrobatics instead of music, people will flock to his concert.

Talking of padams : With their long winding telugu words, they have quite a rhythmic structure to themselves - and you should see sometimes percussionists launch into a mEl kAlam. maximum lucidity - viSrAnti and bliss. Even if we don't understand the SRngAra bhAva in this age - just their musical value is immense.

There is no need to unleash a Marxist redux on a hapless community of past musicians and generation to explain his changes. There will always be a traditional somebody who will raise issues - no matter what you do.

Marxists will find an oppressor and the oppressed in any culture/society and they have become something like universal saints armed with an universal language that has a ring of truth to it - they pose themselves as the sole arbiters of truth. Only the cultures have to take the beating baffled as they are by the introduction of new terms like Secular etc. Pitting people one against the other is uncalled for.

This usually comes from people who are uppity up - from filthy rich back ground - funding the most liberal foundations and think tanks for example in the U.S. Unaccountable to society - typically the middle class who are the keepers of culture/values.

If he wants to celebrate the forgotten styles - he can do with equal respect to both ( the one in vogue and the other) and point out the diversity of thought and approach.

[arasi]

sankark,
The last two lines of your post echo the thoughts of many of us.

A fine musician like TMK can add to the wealth of his music by spending more time with it both on and off stage.The imaginative trance-like moments which he says give him goose bumps will be all the more his bounty--and how much he can share them with his audience too!

Politics and things which take him away from music can wait until he is older, I think. As for social reforms which his heart seems to long for, they also can be taken up by him in a less turbulent way later in his life.

I recently listened to him on the youtube. Though I am taking it out of context, to say something like this: what difference does it make if I sing about Rama or my shoes? It somehow makes one wonder if he's aware of how it sounds. Supposing he had said RAmA's 'shoes', of course I understand, and LakshmaNA would have been thrilled...

[kvchellappa]

Or, Bharatha?

[satishsatish]

Shankarank's posting had little to do with MS and everything about TMK. Would you then blame me for responding to it (with nary a comment about MS, whose music I revere, personality and life I respect, and yet find myself in agreement largely with TMK's points well expressed in the article)?

>This usually comes from people who are uppity up - from filthy rich back ground - funding the most liberal foundations and think tanks for example in >the U.S. Unaccountable to society - typically the middle class who are the keepers of culture/values.

First, why do you have to associate "filthy" with "rich"? From the perspective of another lower in the economic ranks than you--and there are may out there--aren't you one of those "filthy rich" and "uppity up"?

>>typically the middle class who are the keepers of culture/values.

I'll agree with you on that. If you had said the middle class have been the "kultur barers" for long I'd agree with that too.
That however comes with a need we acknowledge they are equally responsible then for many of the evils that plague the cultures of those very societies whose "values and cultures these middle class serve as keepers." With that responsibility also comes accountability (the very word Shankarank uses in context of the middle class) for those problems and evils. You can't claim to be the "keeper of culture/values" and seek escape from/blame others for the problems that are intertwined with the very same culture/values.

Arasi, with much respect for you (justly earned by you from your other posts over the years):

>Politics and things which take him away from music can wait until he is older, I think.
Why does political or social activism have to "wait until one is older"? Makes no sense to me at all.

>As for social reforms which his heart seems to long for, they also can be taken up by him in a less turbulent way later in his life.
Why "later in life" and "in a less turbulent manner"? Again, makes no sense to me at all...less turbulent for whom? later in life as determined by who?
[If I were to turn this around, Arasi, I'd recommend you revert to your thoughts and comments on matters musical, with your characteristic sense of light humor and wit, that I find very valuable and informative. Perhaps you ought to consider things that take you away from them when you are older...and I say this, mindful of our ages as we are not that far apart

TMK and his family have done a lot to promote cultural awareness of (S) Indian traditions, the worthy ones that merit spread and preservation, in sections of society ill served: the poor, the ill-served, etc. Instead of praising, endorsing and promoting their efforts I find it distasteful to find some hypocritical self-nominated "kultur barers" lashing out, projecting, and revealing their own limitations. It is the latter I find "filthy".

[satishsatish]

On reading Shankarank's posting again I noted he, in conclusion, prescribed how TMK should conduct himself.
>If he wants to celebrate the forgotten styles - he can do with equal respect to both ( the one in vogue and the other) and
>point out the diversity of thought and approach.

Shankarank, some Qs for you:
What if TMK doesn't follow your prescription? Do you have other prescriptions?
What makes you qualified to prescribe to TMK? to anyone, for that matter

Are you aware you presented yourself, in that posting, as the very "sole arbiter of truth" that you projected TMK to be?

Have you considered that TMK may have already done (in the eyes of others) what you prescribe? It may not be exactly to your particular taste...but, as far as I can tell, he has demonstrated diversity of thought and approach and respected different styles...and it is you that is intolerant of the diversity and disrespectful of who he is and what he is doing.

To put it bluntly, you'd do well to have a qualified professional perform a check up from your neck up.

[SrinathK]

It's fast going away from MS to TMK. Face it, the fact his, he remains a base breaker, so even if he does make a point everyone is going to react as they are habituated to react. I say don't make such a big fuss over all this - we are all guilty of blowing a huge balloon labelled TMK on this forum whether the balloon is venting out air on the forum or just growing bigger, it doesn't serve any purpose or make any difference -- he will go on, and we also move on. Ultimately a balloon exists because of all the air that's feeding it, in this case, our excessive attention to hype it up. Stop making it such a big deal, and the balloon deflates.

But I bet my money, all of us all be back here the next time he writes something else in the paper, some of us trying to see a point, some of us trying to keep tempers calm and balanced and some of us consigning it to memory and nothing more ... (I think we need more of the 3rd option). It has become our tradition.

"...Two monks were strolling by a stream on their way home to the monastery. They were startled by the sound of a young woman in a bridal gown, sitting by the stream, crying softly. Tears rolled down her cheeks as she gazed across the water. She needed to cross to get to her wedding, but she was fearful that doing so might ruin her beautiful handmade gown.

In this particular sect, monks were prohibited from touching women. But one monk was filled with compassion for the bride. Ignoring the sanction, he hoisted the woman on his shoulders and carried her across the stream—assisting her journey and saving her gown. She smiled and bowed with gratitude as he noisily splashed his way back across the stream to rejoin his companion.

The second monk was livid. "How could you do that?" he scolded. "You know we are forbidden even to touch a woman, much less pick one up and carry her around!"

The offending monk listened in silence to a stern lecture that lasted all the way back to the monastery. His mind wandered as he felt the warm sunshine and listened to the singing birds. After returning to the monastery, he fell asleep for a few hours. He was jostled and awakened in the middle of the night by his fellow monk. "How could you carry that woman?" his agitated friend cried out. "Someone else could have helped her across the stream. You were a bad monk!"

"What woman?" the tired monk inquired groggily.

"Don't you even remember? That woman you carried across the stream," his colleague snapped.

"Oh, her," laughed the sleepy monk. "I only carried her across the stream. You carried her all the way back to the monastery."

The learning point is simple: Leave it at the stream..."

And here's a navaratri treat for you all : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH_p0tkPyNw -- If you all want to there are plenty of MS recordings out there from her 1st concert to her last, we can share it all on the MS thread and see the evolution of her music for ourselves.

[kvchellappa]

The article by TMK is more about TMK and so the comments veer toward him. He sees MS in what to him is music and imagery, not what it was to MS. They are two different things.
No matter how high and mighty, how honest and candid, it never serves to further a cause to hurt others, esp. in matters of faith and art. It is transgression of this principle by TMK that rankles. To dwell on the theme that meaning has no place in music seems overdone and not all that faultless.
Neither TMK, nor those who seem to be more hurt pause for a moment to apply what they say to themselves.
As for TMK, if ARI format is not musical in his view, his way of offering may not be so to many. If the popularity of ARI format has nothing to do with any intrinsic merit, the fact that TMK offerings attract crowd may not vindicate by itself any musical merit in the randomness of his offering.
The trouble with TMK is his vitriolic expression and an air of arrogance as though he has all sense and intelligence perfected in him. It is the childish belief that in our today's state of knowledge, our yesterday's belief was wrong, or that someone else's belief is wrong. Maturity is in recognising that there always exists a gap in what we understand and what may be 'true'; (I read in a book, Siddharth: the opposite of every truth is just as true) and that differences are bound to crop up. I did not find in TMK this maturity.
As for TMK's other interests, the meaning I read In Arasi's writing is that it would be to the glory of music if he spent more time on his musical genius.
(As for me I will never reach Srinathk's maturity).

[arasi]

Chellappa,
Thanks. First, I call BharathA LakshmaNA Then I get into trouble again

satishsatish,
Agreed, agreed, agreed. What has age got to do with social reforms?

Only,we see that in politics, the older ones seem to thrive, that's all.

I should have clarified my thoughts about Krishna in my posts. They all spring from a 'narrow minded' wish of mine that this creative artiste better focus on his music now (in the prime of his life) rather than engage himself in other arenas. That's all there is to my wish. Now, it's his turn to get mad at me How dare she make it her business to tell me what to do? And so many others too ??

Srinath,
One of my favorite zen stories!

AND, TMK also has that thing about him which makes people want to keep him in focus, even when the subject in this piece of his writing is the most fascinating phenomenon called MS

Time for me now to keep quiet...

[shankarank]

To put it bluntly, you'd do well to have a qualified professional perform a check up from your neck up.

Does that absolve me of any obligation to respond? You could have said that at the beginning instead of belaboring point by point. Since you did the latter - I will reciprocate with due respect.

Shankarank, some Qs for you:
What if TMK doesn't follow your prescription? Do you have other prescriptions?

If postings in this forum have a possibility of translating into prescriptions that artistes will actually follow - more power to us. I feel really empowered.

What makes you qualified to prescribe to TMK? to anyone, for that matter

Member of this forum?! Would that suffice? I did not actually mean to prescribe - but rather share a thought in this forum. When an artist with a twitter account and access to publishing space can put a dent on things that we have cherished - why not somebody who has listened to music say something in counter?

Are you aware you presented yourself, in that posting, as the very "sole arbiter of truth" that you projected TMK to be?

Me? Sole arbiter of truth ? This statement was generally made about a certain ideology and the way it plays into public debate. Not specifically TMK. Concern for the poor can be used to trump everything and everybody can be demonized. So there is no debate possible.

First, why do you have to associate "filthy" with "rich"? From the perspective of another lower in the economic ranks than you--and there are may out there--aren't you one of those "filthy rich" and "uppity up"?

Yes there are many out there that can say that about me. But I did not mess with their habitat. So they did not get an opportunity to say it.

Have you considered that TMK may have already done (in the eyes of others) what you prescribe? It may not be exactly to your particular taste...but, as far as I can tell, he has demonstrated diversity of thought and approach and respected different styles...and it is you that is intolerant of the diversity and disrespectful of who he is and what he is doing.

Whatever good things that may have happened have been marred by other things that have been said and projected - bringing in media and others with no particular interest or positive stake in the heritage other than the romantic fascination with challenging some established powers.

[satishsatish]

Shankarank: your response, well intended as it is, falls far short of satisfying me for reasons below

Listeners outnumber artistes by far. Their opinions and demands and prescriptions are multiples of the population, guaranteed to not be self-consistent and guaranteed to be contradictory. Do you really expect artistes to follow listeners' prescriptions? That by itself summarizes the problem I have with your expectations and the content of your previous posting.

>I did not actually mean to prescribe - but rather share a thought in this forum

What you meant was not what you said. You prescribed: if TMK is to do this then he has to do that...
You seem a reasonable and articulate person so perhaps you can see how your message came across and how, to someone like me, it has overtones of fatwas and mandates...the last thing I feel we need...and I felt compelled to call you on them as I'm afraid of what it portends.
By way of example read Arasi's response to your posting where she made it clear she was sharing her thought...clearly different in tone and content from what you said.

Listeners and artistes are not in the same league, as far as I am concerned. Your equating them seems to me as very transparently for self-serving reasons: just so you have grounds to prescribe to them!

Yes, there are many that use "concern for the poor" for their own self-serving reasons.
I do not see TMK doing that. I see him engaging in a serious (and much desired, in my opinion) effort to bring this wonderful tradition of Carnatic music to a larger audience that has long been under-served. Their engagement would only do good for what you and I and other members of this audience enjoy and respect. And, in return, just as we now accept abhangs we'd also get the opportunity to listen to, accept and enjoy the music that we do today and also what is rooted in that neck of the woods but outside the current Carnatic system.

If those that disagree with TMK's efforts agree that Carnatic music would benefit in the long run from the engagement of that larger audience...then the reactions and disagreement with TMK is specific to the approach he has adopted. Well, step up and propose other ways to produce the result that's good for Carnatic music: the engagement of that larger audience, the opportunity to listen to music outside the current system. I'm all ears (and I'd like to think TMK would be too) and it would serve us all well, far better than prescriptions and diktats and personal attacks.

At a time when prescriptions and mandates are imposed upon others, and failure to comply results in attacks (calumnies, egg and ink and knife and worse), it is important we (the "filthy rich", "uppity up", "Marxist", gosh, what else!) be cognizant of what we say and do and understand it has implications beyond us.

The obligatory comment about MS: I found TMK's article on her well written, informative, and even consistent with what was discussed by those that know more about CM than I ever would. And every word of what I read in the article only deepened my respect and regard for for her and what she accomplished in her life.

[arasi]

satishsatish,
I did not want to say anything more on this thread, but you make me by mentioning me
I did respond to sankark's post (only to the last two lines in it). The rest of my post was in response to you.

I wasn't happy about your advise to him in visiting a shrink (who are we to decide?). I kept mum about it thinking he would respond to that, and how decently he has responded, with maturity!

If you think folks are getting carried away (in some instances they do), aren't you doing the same, rebutting others (including those who have their voices--not shouts--to express their reactions?).

Your new post has some lines in it which make me feel uneasy, but as I had said, I will not comment on them.

[kvchellappa]

No matter how beautifully, articulately, logically we argue, I do not get to understand how anyone can expect how MS should have lived and conducted herself professionally? Was it not up to her and those who were dear to her? If she took to devotional side more prominently, it was her desire and innumerable people derive happiness, nay, bliss listening to it. Her value system was different and we cannot comment on her life from our value system.

[satishsatish]

>I do not get to understand how anyone can expect how MS should have lived and conducted herself professionally?

Chellapa: I did not pick up any expectation by TMK on how MS SHOULD have lived and conducted herself professionally. Could you point to specific instances where you picked that up that I might have missed?

Arasi: the reference I made to your posting and your including "I think" (see below) in my response to Shankarank was:
>Politics and things which take him away from music can wait until he is older, I think.
>As for social reforms which his heart seems to long for, they also can be taken up by him in a less turbulent way later in his life.
I did not agree with what you said. However I challenged it differently than I did Shankarank as your tone was a lot milder, your did not bring up baseless irrelevancies ("Marxist", "filthy rich", etc.) and the respect and regard I have for you is well earned and deserved.

>I wasn't happy about your advise to him in visiting a shrink (who are we to decide?)
Not for me to decide...which is why I said "you'd do well..."

I find it telling you pick this out but had nothing to say about "filthy rich" and "uppity up" and "Marxist" and so on. I guess it tells me where your biases and sympathies lie and that's ok with me.

In any case this is getting far away from TMK or MS...and if I have failed to register my point by now I'm unlikely to succeed at it...and I have homework, lots of it, to do on krithis tuned to different ragams so off I go!

[Sundara Rajan]

It appears TMK has succeeded in getting his desired publicity and exposure to the forumites and readers without trying ! May be this topic deserves to be closed.

[ramamantra]

If TMK really respected MS, he'd never have seeded the very idea of this controversial article. MS understood?

Who is he to even write about that great goddess? And where are any 'myths' and 'misconceptions'? Horrible chap !

[pattamaa]

I would like to write an article "Krishna (mis)understood" to clear all (mis)conceptions, on very same lines... will hindu publish it ? We have enough information about the subject in this forum...

[rshankar]

Why Hindu? Why not Caravan?

[pattamaa]

caravan is cheap ! would like to write in Hindu to get more credibility for the crap writing !

[shankar vaidyanathan]

The Hindu in our memory layers is not the The Hindu of this day and age. Actually, தமிழ் இந்து paper in Tamil is a better edited newspaper. The Hindu has turned in to the mouthpiece of the same philosophy that Caravan puts forth. I have stopped my subscription to The Hindu long time ago. Now I sometimes selectively read only their Friday Arts section on the web...CM concert reviews...depending on who the reviewer and artist is.

[harimau]

TMK's complaint that Sri Sadasivam restrained the exercise of unrestrained musical freedom by MS is based on the fact that, in not a single concert did MS sing a varnam in the middle or a major raga such as Kharaharapriya after singing mangalam!

[kvchellappa]

Is it the story of MS that she was converted from a devadasi to a Brahmin? Is it that she relinquished the abandon of a devadasi singer that would have made her a true artist? Is it that she was caught in the cocoon of Brahminical conservatism from the cracks in the walls of which her musical genius could only gleam through, but not shine forth? Is it that by singing lighter pieces and giving a large number of devotional lyrics her true Carnatic music forte was blunted? Is it true that being made to sing Sankarabharanam repeatedly, her music was stifled? Did she not sing other ragas with as much mastery and fairly often? If Semmangudi was identified with KHP, does it mean that his musical genius was confined to it? Is it that the ignoramuses adulated her slavishly while the aesthetes had a poor view of her credential as a classical musician? Is it that the praise of Chembai, Sambasiva Iyer, Palghat Mani Iyer, and so many other greats was all stage managed or said merely for public consumption? If SSI said that her tanam singing was the best among women singers, or Musiri and SSI congratulated her after a varnam in Begada, is it all fictitious, and no one really acknowledged her in this area? Is it that Brahminism is a spoiler of the creative environment to music and that without that environment CM would have occupied the world stage? Is it that MS was totally dominated upon (which wife does not have a complaint) and that she was a reluctant victim? Then, why did she advocate a similar role to women in her interview? Was it also said in duress? Was it universal that her singing would be disrupted to sing a thukkada to satisfy a bigwig?
Those who lap up all these arguments pay a rich tribute to the oratory of TMK. His ideology of opposition to the ARI format (tukkadas being given prominence), Brahminism and the CM being a prisoner of Brahmins, runs right through the article cleverly and infectiously like space invades the universe.
It is well written, cleverly written, drawing effortlessly on his command of language, brilliance of mind and mastery of music, but the stance from which it is written does justice neither to MS nor to truth.
I would have appreciated if he had written an honest piece on the merits of her music and where it fell short.