GNB's renderings of various kritis lasted the same time to within seconds

[satishsatish]

One indicator of the performer's skills at improvising (to me) is that their renditions of the same kriti are different (mostly) and reflected in the fact that the renditions vary in their duration. That aspect of creativity and improvising (for me) as practiced in Indian traditional music, including Carnatic, is a huge draw.

GNB's reputation, creativity, and standing in the pantheon was justly earned and deserved. I don't mean to dispute any of that.
My questions below were prompted by what CACM wrote in the thread concerning TMK's article on MS:

CACM wrote:
>...
>Sanjay Subramanian- a VERY SERIOUS, SMART AND OBJECTIVE MUSICIAN DESERVEDLY OUR S.K. THIS YEAR- told me
>that he had timed GNB'S RENDERINGS OF VARIOUS KRITIS & found they lasted the same time to within seconds EXCEPT
>RTP where he rendered RAGAS at a HEAVENLY LEVEL (so time varied).

I presume CACM meant renderings of the same kritis at different times in GNB's career.
[If all of GNB's renditions of kritis lasted the same time to within seconds the questions I ask below are even more pertinent]

Trying to understand the above left me with serious cognitive dissonance. To clarify:

Renditions of kritis are expected to demonstrate a good (not insignificant) degree of the performer's skills at improvising.
Less improvising than say RTP but still significant and not negligible.

Assume a less renowned/accomplished performer (than say GNB) was found to render kritis (over their career) "to the same time within seconds". Would they not be judged as weak at creativity, lacking at skills in improvising, unable to produce new variations that still engage the audience in new ways, coming off rehearsed and cookie-cutter producing the same old same old?
Would that not be seen as a serious drawback and disqualify them from consideration as a serious, accomplished, talented performer?

And if we do that to a less renowned performer why do/should we laud it if it comes from someone more renowned (in this situation, GNB)?
If GNB's kriti renditions were consistently of the same duration but his RTP varied why would not someone say his kriti renditions were unimaginative and his RTP were (to use CACM's words) "heavenly""?

What have I misunderstood and what misconception do I need to root out?

[varsha]

What have I misunderstood

1. Person quoting must have had the same concert under different labels
2. cacm might have heard him wrongly
3.Stock of Available concert recordings of GNB Is an incomplete picture of the man.

and what misconception do I need to root out?

Nothing .
1.GNB's Subrahmanyaya Namasthe is available with timings of
51.27,43.57,37.16,36.57,36.28,35.29,33.57,32.29,31.31,31.30,24.24,21.48,17.0,13.47,6.41
2.Point 3 above is compensated by the data available of MLV and SK

[hnbhagavan]

I heard Sri MDR concert for several years.He used to sing SAMAJAVARA GAMANA -Hindolam from say 10 minutes and also elaborately lasting 40 mts.
There are many concerts in which ENDARO MAHANUBAVULU has been rendered in say 7-8 minutes to nearly 45 minutes.There may be many more such examples.

[cacm]

Dear Varsha,
I APOLOGISE FOR STIRRING HORNET'S NEST. First I APOLOGISE for mentioning Sanjay's name. Second I had spent close to 5 years sorting out GNB CONCERTS BEC.: He has sung at various Kattais & one of the by products is what I wrote bout. I will decsribe theseefforts as they DO HAVE SOME RELEVENCE TO WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN. I am a POOR COMMINICATOR & KNOWIT. But my remarks were to the BEST of my abilities & indersatanding. So again I REQUESY EVERY ONE TO EXCUSE ME FOR MISLEADING PERSONS. I am briefly answering the GOOD POINTS YOU HAVE RAISED. I am speaking for myself ONLY tho' about 10 others were involved in the ANALYSIS being written about. VKV
quote="varsha"]

What have I misunderstood
1. Person quoting must have had the same concert under different labels......THERE IS LOT OF TRUTH IN WHAT YOU HAVE OBSERVED. I rerecorded many concerts at what the "PANEL" voted to be the correct Kattai & ASLO edited the available material- in case of GNB is is SCANT- based on consensus as some of them the panel members had been present at the concerts & their "FAULTY" memories were put to use!
2. cacm might have heard him wrongly. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. The thrust had to do with THE ACTUAL TIME TAKEN BY THE INDIVIDUAL ARTISTS. MMI for example TOTALLY PURSUED SUGGESTIONS AS PLAYED BY CHOWDIAH, PMI etc who influenced things by their playing & even juniors like LGJ, MSG, TNK he got excoted.
What I referred to was the STUDY I MADE-INCOMPLETE OF COURSE- ACTUALLY TIMING EACH ARTIST IN THE CONCERT- & IT SEEMED TO BEAR WHAT I WROTE PREVIOUSLY. I LEARNT THE LESSON I WAS FOOLISH TO WRITE ON A SUBJECT I HAD NOT SCIENTIFICALLY STUDIED IN DETAIL.
3.Stock of Available concert recordings of GNB Is an incomplete picture of the man....I AGREE TOTALLY.

and what misconception do I need to root out?

Nothing ........AGREE.
1.GNB's Subrahmanyaya Namasthe is available with timings of
51.27,43.57,37.16,36.57,36.28,35.29,33.57,32.29,31.31,31.30,24.24,21.48,17.0,13.47,6.41....AT LEAST PART OF THIS IS DEPENDENT ON WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN ABOVE HERE.,
2.Point 3 above is compensated by the data available of MLV and SK

...AGREE.
SORRY I OPENED A PANDORA'S BOX & APOLOGISE TO EVERY ONE. VKV

[varsha]

SORRY

No need for that Sir. Your views are respected .I was only trying to present a picture I had.

[cacm]

Dear Varsha, Thanks for being kind. YOU have opened my eyes to at least try & improve what I intended to write! VKV

[munirao2001]

Satishsatish Sir

Renditions of kritis are expected to demonstrate a good (not insignificant) degree of the performer's skills at improvising.
Less improvising than say RTP but still significant and not negligible.

Rendition of kruthees and Keertanams must conform to the sampradaya-karna parampara or notations. Niraval gives the freedom for improvisation of the original line. Performer re creates the values of original creativity-rasa/aesthetic and soundarya/beauty. Creativity is in ideation and imagination of the sense or state of the mind of the vaggeyakara and offer of pleasure or bliss of the original. Talents and skills resulting in re creativity delivers variations in pleasure and values.

Performers realizing the condition of their performing technical restrictions, do make their choice on kalapramanam-ati vilambam to vilambam; vilambam to madhyama; madhyama to turita. Performers also desiring to create tendencies and habits for easy appreciation and support of rasikas, adopt the style of rendition-delivery aspect. Style of rendition also compels them to make choice on variations and ornamentation. Their ideals, with few exceptions, are for pamara ranjakatvam and their offer value of pleasure to the rasikas. Exceptions are of performers whose ideal is pandita-pamara ranjakatvam and their offer of pleasure to both discerning rasikas and uninitiated rasikas. Very few are of performers whose ideal is pandita ranjakatvam and their offer of pleasure with moments of bliss, uplifting, uncompromisingly.

In performing arts, the state of popularity only attracts the patronage. Patronage establishes the identity and image of authority. Authority getting established very rarely questioned and challenged. With sense of fulfillment arisen out of such state, practitioners do get urge, introspect, realize and externalize the internalized values or renewed values unmindful of the risk of change, for popularity in continuum. Performers seeking to attain popularity and patronage cannot afford to take risk and must meet the expectations of the patrons-event managers, opinion makers and rasikas. Performers seeking to attain popularity and cannot understand the expectations of the patrons, struggle and remain confused, dissatisfied, unfulfilled. Performers not seeking to attain popularity but NRF-name recognition factor, stick to their chosen ideal(s) and get sense of fulfillment, partly, if not fully.

munirao2001