Music/Dance institutions outside India - sizes?

[ramarama]

Just out of curiosity, I would like to hear from rasikas on this forum about the biggest Indian music and dance institutions outside of India, in terms of numbers of teachers and students.

In Singapore, there are a handful of institutions, SIFAS, Nrityalaya, Temple of Fine Arts, Syama, alapana which teach multiple disciplines (carnatic vocal, violin, mridangam, Bharatanatyam and many others) which each have quite a few students, running into hundreds. SIFAS's student count runs over 1800 I think and they have some 25+ teachers (usually of top pedigree e.g. dance teachers who are Kalakshetra graduates, music teachers from top colleges of music or with top notch gurus - artistes of the calibre of Padmavathy Ananthagopalan, Tiruvarur Vaidyanathan, Karaikudi Subramaniam for example have been teachers here).

Would love to hear about how large other institutions might be in the diaspora. Not saying that quantity is quality lah! Just curious. Singapore is unique, in its age-old diaspora population (some of the Indian temples here were constructed in the mid 1800s), in Tamil being an official language (and Deepavali being a national holiday), and in its proximity to Chennai. But the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan in London or NY might perhaps be comparable in size, to some Singapore institutions? Does anyone know the sizes of these institutions, or of those in places elsewhere - in Australia, on the US west coast ....

Tangentially, completing an 8 year course at SIFAS (meeting just once a week for an hour, but having to clear exams each year), is recognized by Madras University to be equivalent to a bachelor's degree, allowing you direct entry into a Masters program at Madras University. So that's some evidence of the quality of the teaching programs here too.

[mohan]

In Sydney we don't have any big institutions that teach music / dance but rather this is done by individual teachers. There are a few dance teachers that have in excess of 100 students each. In music, most teachers don't take on as many students as it is harder to teach to large groups. Nonetheless there are some music teachers who have around 50 students.

[Nick H]

BVB in London is fairly big, but I have no idea of numbers, or how things have changed in the decade during which I have merely popped in every few years. There is a small core group of teachers of carnatic and hindustani music. The largest group of students would be carnatic, with the majority vocal and dance. As well as that, there are other schools, like the London Tamil School which might also be quite big. There are many teachers. Some teach only independently, some teach independently as well as holding classes at the one of the schools.

Well, I'd better stop there, in case I give the impression that I know what I'm talking about! Maybe I did once, but I am a decade out of touch.

[MaheshS]

BVB in London is fairly big, but I have no idea of numbers, or how things have changed in the decade during which I have merely popped in every few years. There is a small core group of teachers of carnatic and hindustani music. The largest group of students would be carnatic, with the majority vocal and dance. As well as that, there are other schools, like the London Tamil School which might also be quite big. There are many teachers. Some teach only independently, some teach independently as well as holding classes at the one of the schools.

Well, I'd better stop there, in case I give the impression that I know what I'm talking about! Maybe I did once, but I am a decade out of touch.

/ rant

The UK scene, learn for a few years going through a set of songs again and again and again, do an arengtram spending 30K pounds+ in a big hall with big names from India [all paid for], put it on your CV so you can get into a decent university and then carry on with life listening to R&B In the 18 years I've lived in the UK, NONE I know have progressed beyond getting their names on their CV [for doing arengetram - classical Indian dance exponent - praised by XYZ ]. And barring one or two they do not even know what they have learnt. It's part of the status symbol - nothing more nothing less, part of their portfolio. Parents and kids alike.

/ rant over

[Nick H]

Decent university? Decent job? It's a meaningless word to anybody who is not Tamil and/or part of that community.

But I know what you mean. In the years during and after my days in mridangam class, I know of only one who took up music full-time, although there are others who still play part-time alongside another, main, profession. As that profession is often a very demanding one (medicine), that is quite an accomplishment in itself.

Many others, perhaps the majority of carnatic music and dance students do, indeed, despite what is always said in the speeches, regard that expensive social event as an end, and not the beginning of a career.

But... with variations of flavour, decor, cost, etc... what's different in the other countries? I ask that question innocently, because I only know London and Chennai. Regardless of the big-social-event, rehearsed performance, most people in the worlds of art, music and performance fall by the wayside, or are forced to to something else by economic need.

There is a lot else you could rightly rant about the UK arrangetram scene, but, if we focus on the one place, and get into that, it is not answering ramarama's question

[MaheshS]

But... with variations of flavour, decor, cost, etc... what's different in the other countries? I ask that question innocently, because I only know London and Chennai. Regardless of the big-social-event, rehearsed performance, most people in the worlds of art, music and performance fall by the wayside, or are forced to to something else by economic need.

There is a lot else you could rightly rant about the UK arrangetram scene, but, if we focus on the one place, and get into that, it is not answering ramarama's question

Apologies and agreed that this is not going to answer Ramarama's question or provide anything new, regardles of whether London / Chennai / New York or Sydney ... this was just a mini-rant, and as you say there are a few more things I could go on about the farce that is called arangetram in the UK Weirdly, I have never been to an arengretram in India.

There is one difference between Chennai and the rest of the places though, the abundance of oppurtunity to listen / see performances ...

[shankarank]

Outside of ticket sales/sponsorship/endowments - if you consider what has been a significant grass root community support for CM - it is either parents marrying off their daughter ( Kalyana Kutcheris) traditionally or parents preparing their children for College (diaspora - skype and teaching by visiting artistes).

It is heartening to note that there are some institutions accredited now outside of India.

But more can be done - if the music institutions in India gain legitimacy to recognize volunteer work from trained students (pre-college) from the diaspora to come and volunteer to teach young kids in India and do exchange programs with peer students in India. It allows children of the diaspora to discover their roots by more human interaction and motivates Indian students to aspire more. There could be an inspiring Harvard essay or two from that too.

May be this is happening already?

That could be a free source of human resources for something that has been brought up in this forum as what more can be done to spread the music!

It would also help to remove elitist tag from NRIs who show up during season/summers for their own ends.

As regards arangetrams - lets face it - we should simply see this as rolling student/rasika base. Many a parent who would not have stepped into a Sabha or Kutcheri have lent their ear to this music - first ever in their life time because of their children's pursuit. Yeah! I have heard up to how Kalpagam Mami's Vina was so sweet in Cleveland ( I was elated and somewhat sad at the same time) from one such parent! And parents and children disappear after that - we cannot see them in concerts.

As regards Kalyana Kutcheris - even as I viewed that as insulting to the artistes in later times ( 80s / 90s) , today the reality is, if the music can ever fall on the ear of an unusual rasika ( of as diverse a community you can think of) that is indeed a channel - hope artistes and would be engagers come to a respectable arrangement that keeps the environment conducive.

[Nick H]

So far as connection to roots is concerned, let me just add a word in favour of the London scene. Leaving aside the arrangetram scene's pros and cons, and many of the youngsters will never do it anyway, there is a huge connection-to-roots factor, and I think it has to be recognised that the youngsters, while their classmates are having freedom, are spending whole weekends and some evenings, not only in music, but also in Tamil language classes. If we leave out any expectation that they will become musicians then what they are doing is, I think, really great.

Of course, the roots, in that case, are Sri-Lankan Tamil. The Indian British diaspora, Brahmin or not, does not seem to have much interest in carnatic music. Hindustani music attracts Indians (and more non-Indians than Carnatic, but that is partly because of lack of advertising) but also includes more of the want-to-be-seen-by-the-VIPs crowd.

[msakella]

In this thread the information about the biggest Indian music & dance institutions outside of India in terms of numbers of teachers and students is asked. (In 1998 I have visited SIFAS as examiner)

Let them be outside or inside India, I ask for the high standards of the students but not in the useless terms of numbers (or Degrees) of the teachers and students.

In our music-institute, Swarabhangima at Secunderabad, our teachers very efficiently initiate each and every student of 60+ students sing all the Alankaras both in Chaturashra & Trisra-gatis within the first two months. The students who cannot rise to the level of managing with both Chaturashra and Trisra-gatis will certainly be removed from roles. Later all these students very efficiently sing all the Varnas in full @ 4-6-8 notes per beat within only one year. These kinds of standards only are needed to achieve.

In respect of my personal students I, without singing myself even for 1% in any of the weekly-twice classes, initiate my personal students (kids only) sing all the Alankaras both in Chaturashra & Trisra-gatis within the first two months and the first Varna in Natakuranji-Adi in full @ 4-6-8 notes per beat within the next four months along with creative Swarakalpana. I shall be very happy to know about such institutions. amsharma