English Lyrics for Indian Classical Music...

[arasi]

Our Gautam Tejas Ganesan in California sings CM music with english lyrics, we know. Now, an India-based HM singer does the same. 'O naughty Krishna, tell me!' he sings. Sanjay has twittered this...

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-0jHhOkk_M

"A karaoke music video for an Indian classical bandish in English. As a third generation Indian classical musician, Kiran Phatak never really got the lure of musical genres like Rap, Rock, and Pop. Around 5-6 years back realisation dawned upon him and he concluded that it is the English language that these mostly western musical styles are sung in, that stops him from fully appreciating the music. By way of extrapolation, he also inferred that in order for Indian classical music to become relevant and popular amongst the youth of the world, he would need to sing his Bandishes in their language of choice – English. He promptly penned down around 20-25 Bandishes in English; some of them direct translations of traditional ones and a few originals that tackled modern themes such as smartphones running out of battery and putting an end to the nightly conversations between two lovers.

"His first rendition of these English Bandishes was a huge hit and the hall where he performed was houseful. Still, there are lot in the music world who oppose his experiment. They believe that he is destroying their centuries old traditions and want him to put an end to this musical Frankenstein. But Mr. Phatak believes that music is a dynamic art and it needs to continually evolve in order to stay relevant. In his words, ‘If we stop new ideas from flowing into the ocean of sounds then it would slowly dry into a puddle of static, muddy water’. ..."

Check this too !
https://www.101india.com/people/what-co ... sh-bandish

[rshankar]

Concept is interesting, but am I the only one who is flinching at the 'poetry'?

[arasi]

Hello PB

Yes, this is the guy...

Ravi,
They may sing like nightingale and finch, yet you flinch (me too!).

[kvchellappa]

I feel 'uzhaippu' which must consist of both listening and sadhakam show up in rendering. The reason Thyagaraja dominated may be because of this factor. When a new piece is sung, it often does not bring the same effect. It has to be sung again and again to make an impact, but many exit after a guest appearance. TMK sang CM with HM lyrics in one Margazhi utsavam, it did not click, I think. He does not seem to offer it in his non-concerts.
Long back, I saw a book in Higginbothams, with lyrics on Jesus Christ set to ragas. While Vedanayakam Pillai's songs have been sung by some, nothing else seems to have caught on.
Tamizh isai movement had the mighty support of several stalwarts. MS gave it the required momentum. Still, in one Margazhi event, a question was put to Sanjay whether the trinity songs will fade out when Tamizh songs are sung more. He said emphatically that they would not.
Any change is a swim against the tide and requires the sort of energy of TMK. Whether such things will succeed time only will tell.
As a one-off they generate interest to peep and see.

[GautamTejasGaneshan]

...am I the only one who is flinching at the 'poetry'?

Nope.

Our Gautam Tejas Ganesan in California sings CM music with english lyrics, we know. Now, an India-based HM singer does the same.

I dunno about "does the same..."

You be the judge: 50+ concerts of CM in English:

https://vimeo.com/channels/gautamtejasganeshan

(sorry guys, I haven't been checking rasikas.org lately & may not respond promptly...)

- G

[ramamatya]

You be the judge: 50+ concerts of CM in English:

(sorry guys, I haven't been checking rasikas.org lately & may not respond promptly...)

- G

Really hard on the ears !

Btw, who's bothered abt your responding 'promptly' and all...

[sureshvv]

Good stuff. Hard to make out the lyrics though. Any site with that? Any way to display next to video?

[GautamTejasGaneshan]

Really hard on the ears!

Thanks for the feedback.

Btw, who's bothered abt your responding 'promptly' and all...

Not you, I guess.
But I've been in some back and forth discussions on here before.

Good stuff. Hard to make out the lyrics though. Any site with that?

Thanks, & yes, here:
http://gautamtejasganeshan.com/songbook.html

Any way to display next to video?

Unf. not yet. This would be good though, and gets suggested periodically. Maybe someday.

- G

[shankarank]

Gautam .. I do remember listening to the Gurleka tune - the way you took "Continue to be worthy" still haunts my ears. I suppose some Italian conversion will help somewhat but that was good nevertheless. No did not listen to it again - so I may have the words wrong.

[narayan]

Gautam,

Here are my impressions and a question from listening to a little of your music from afar.

I heard a couple of your songs set to English lyrics. Some of the softness of the music is lost in perhaps over-stressing the words, in an attempt to communicate that part as clearly and forcefully as you are trying to. The effort is to reach out to a different listener, and that is quite difficult to do. So much of CM is to an audience that is already in touch with the form without really knowing much about it! The way I see it is that you are trying to project raga based music, while providing a link through some familiar sounding lyrics - in many cases it does not really matter what they are, as long as they are familiar - and see where that takes you.

Today things may be a bit different, but when I learned music, most of my generation would have no clue (or even much interest) in the fact that palukavemina daivama is a song in a despondent mood while telisirama is quite a different mood, with Tyagaraja pointing out technical differences and hypocrisy to others and to himself. Most people sing ragam and kalpana swarams in quite a jaunty way for both the songs, and at least I find it difficult to relate to the original meaning most of the time. So in a sense, even if I can't make out the words too well in some of your renderings, it does not matter too much.

I also wanted to know whether the posture and other physical aspects of the singing affect the way you finally deliver - i.e. whether you are happy with it.

In any case, all the best to you.

[rajeshnat]

Gautam Tejas
I am in austin -short term visit , Longing to hear a concert if you are planning to perform here in Austin(will come) or Dallas/Houston(May come) Post it here in rasikas or mail me in a private mail thru the forum. On that day get the mrudangam and violin for the concert.

[GautamTejasGaneshan]

...the way you took "Continue to be worthy" still haunts my ears.

Thanks...I think?
Haunting is good, right?

I suppose some Italian conversion will help somewhat but that was good nevertheless.

Curious what you mean by Italian conversion.

Some of the softness of the music is lost in perhaps over-stressing the words, in an attempt to communicate that part as clearly and forcefully as you are trying to.

A lot of this is also that I strictly eschew amplification.
Ariyakudi sounds harsh too, to our modern "mellinam" ears.
But I certainly acknowledge that melodiousness comes and goes in my music.
It ought to just come and stay - I gotta be a better host, I guess.

some familiar sounding lyrics - in many cases it does not really matter what they are...

Mmm...no, it does matter what they are.
I'm very particular about this - I mean what I say.

And to clarify, my intent is not to "reach out" (as you say) per se,
but rather to deliver songs whose every element I intend fully.

...I find it difficult to relate to the original meaning most of the time.

Well, it shouldn't be surprising that we find it difficult to relate to statements from a saint in a village in 1790.

Are you a saint?
Are you in a village?
Is it 1790?

I also wanted to know whether the posture and other physical aspects of the singing affect the way you finally deliver - i.e. whether you are happy with it.

Work in progress. I am incapable of sitting cross-legged, to my GREAT consternation. That's one for the next janmam.

In any case, all the best to you.

Thank you.

Longing to hear a concert if you are planning to perform here...

Houston is my "ur". But I don't travel much to perform. I bet I'll end up singing in Austin sometime though.

- G

[thenpaanan]

A lot of this is also that I strictly eschew amplification.

This is a key point. I notice that in many of your performance videos the mic is somewhere far away. In my mind this is something Carnatic singers of all stripes should at least attempt to do. But you are the only one I know of who is doing this. Artificial amplification may be enabling bad habits in singers as also spoiling the overall effect for the listener. So if we must have amplifiers, we must at least try to minimize their need.

Ariyakudi sounds harsh too, to our modern "mellinam" ears.

Some of it may have to do with listener training. Just like singers have to train their voices, listeners have to train their ears. Generations have come and gone for whom Ariyakudi was the touchstone for everything Carnatic. He was undoubtedly a great singer but we as listeners have our work cut out to learn to appreciate different approaches.

But I certainly acknowledge that melodiousness comes and goes in my music.
It ought to just come and stay - I gotta be a better host, I guess.

My voice coach often counsels volume/quality control. Not that I have actually gained that control but his point is simply that I need to strive for a near constant voice quality across the range (so no growling and no crooning). But I find that due to my inability to get adequate head voice mixed into my chest voice, I end up screaming at the higher registers. What are your criteria for good vocalization? What are the things that you purposefully strive for and what are the things that you hope will come on their own?

-Thenpaanan

[shankarank]

GautamTejasGaneshan wrote:
Ariyakudi sounds harsh too, to our modern "mellinam" ears.

Some of it may have to do with listener training. Just like singers have to train their voices, listeners have to train their ears. Generations have come and gone for whom Ariyakudi was the touchstone for everything Carnatic. He was undoubtedly a great singer but we as listeners have our work cut out to learn to appreciate different approaches.

Ariyakudi Shishya sings with a harsh voice too at this age! Skip about an hour into this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S49QXgI847w. But he was sensible enough to have one of his disciples sing behind. The girl filled the rough road patch with a nice Bitumen to smoothen it here and there.

So Gautam that is a pointer for you

I will post some comments on it in the KR&R forum.

[GautamTejasGaneshan]

...But he was sensible enough to have one of his disciples sing behind.
The girl filled the rough road patch with a nice Bitumen to smoothen it here and there.
So Gautam that is a pointer for you

LOL. You're right! Poke around my concert videos and you'll find some other "bituminous" voices joining me for some songs here and there...

A lot of this is also that I strictly eschew amplification.

This is a key point. I notice that in many of your performance videos the mic is somewhere far away. In my mind this is something Carnatic singers of all stripes should at least attempt to do. But you are the only one I know of who is doing this.

Agreed. The worst sufferer from close-micing is the thoppi. I think today's audience mostly doesn't have a clue what a healthy mridangam really sounds like.

What are your criteria for good vocalization? What are the things that you purposefully strive for and what are the things that you hope will come on their own?

These questions are too good. I think the main thing I strive for is not sounding like I strive too much! So, a fool's errand. Certain things do come on their own though, but it is a LONG process, in my experience. Keeping it up is the main thing, I think - figuring out how to *care* enough to keep giving it everything.

In this, community helps. So, thanks!

- G

[sureshvv]

Hope you can visit Chennai & present some of these at the Vidwat Samajam. Thyagarajar would get a kick out of it

[GautamTejasGaneshan]

Hope you can visit Cheenai & present some of these at the Vidwat Samajam. Thyagarajar would get a kick out of it

I agree, & I often wonder if T would show up at the Music Academy and say "Well guys, good work on all the additional chiselled sangatis, but how 'bout some songs depicting this generation's honest adoration for Rama - or any ishta deivam of your choosing!" I think the music fraternity & sorority would be embarrassed by such a statement, if they took it seriously.

Incidentally, I have performed at the Vidwat Samajam,
although accompanying on violin my father's traditional concert.

I've also sung a couple of times in Chennai -
once at Arkay (opening for Abhishek - pic below),
and another time at the Musiri house on Luz.



- G

[thenpaanan]

I agree, & I often wonder if T would show up at the Music Academy and say "Well guys, good work on all the additional chiselled sangatis, but how 'bout some songs depicting this generation's honest adoration for Rama - or any ishta deivam of your choosing!"

That ship, as the saying goes, sailed away a long time ago.

-Thenpaanan

[rajeshnat]

I heard a couple of your songs set to English lyrics. Some of the softness of the music is lost in perhaps over-stressing the words, in an attempt to communicate that part as clearly and forcefully as you are trying to. The effort is to reach out to a different listener, and that is quite difficult to do. So much of CM is to an audience that is already in touch with the form without really knowing much about it! The way I see it is that you are trying to project raga based music, while providing a link through some familiar sounding lyrics - in many cases it does not really matter what they are, as long as they are familiar - and see where that takes you.

Narayan
Lovely point . It looks Gautam belongs to the genre of musicians like say a DKP or a DKJ where that extra over stressing to bring sAhitya anubhavam is preferred than to tradeoff like a MMI SSI to bring more musical anubhuvam .


Gautam
Apart from your family, known friends/accquintances has anyone ever come to you on stage after the concert and said those English lyrics indeed moved me ?

By the way have you sung english lyrics as viruththam /slokham in ragamaliga. If yes please point to the specific recording with the start ?

[nanosadagopan]

English lyrics for carnatic - unsahikyable...

[narayan]

Just wanted to clarify that I tried to understand the words (as English is the only language I know well), and although I did not really succeed in the few songs that I listened to, it did not matter too much. The music was still enjoyable. Somewhat the same as with regular CM.

[varsha]

English lyrics for carnatic - unsahikyable...

Two goats wandered into an alley behind a cinema. There they found a can of film, which one of them devoured.How was it ? the companion asked .
“Oh ! alright “ he said .”But the book was better “

counterpoint

Yes. I am a dreamer. For a dreamer is one who can find his way by moonlight.And his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world….Oscar Wilde in The Critic as an artist

[shankarank]

narayan wrote:
I heard a couple of your songs set to English lyrics. Some of the softness of the music is lost in perhaps over-stressing the words, in an attempt to communicate that part as clearly and forcefully as you are trying to. The effort is to reach out to a different listener, and that is quite difficult to do. So much of CM is to an audience that is already in touch with the form without really knowing much about it! The way I see it is that you are trying to project raga based music, while providing a link through some familiar sounding lyrics - in many cases it does not really matter what they are, as long as they are familiar - and see where that takes you.


Narayan
Lovely point . It looks Gautam belongs to the genre of musicians like say a DKP or a DKJ where that extra over stressing to bring sAhitya anubhavam is preferred than to tradeoff like a MMI SSI to bring more musical anubhuvam .

There is something called Sanskriti - the connection to things - so even if lyrical meaning is not known to somebody the rest of them, the vallina / mellina balance, the sanskriti in construction - long short balance - if a long vowel gets a certain time - it consistently gets proportional time in that line ( e.g. koluvai yunnADe kondandapAni - Bhairavi ) - the feeling that this has descended from not some trivial past etc., makes a lot of difference.

That is why the Non-Brahmin community slowly lost it - as soon they lost reverence to it - instead were deliberately made averse to it - not just Sanskrit - tamizh, tEvAram everything!

You can listen to Kandar Anubhuti in the classical style and later in light style with paraphernalia from Soolamangalam Sisters!

That is one reason why there is so much effort to degrade the past to create a feeling of atrocity about it.. so that the music can be then taken away - instead of just being copied elsewhere but leaving it alone where it is.

As regards DKP/DKJ and their stresses - they still moved around kriyAs well - asaindArkal. With the result their conviction in layam has been tested under perturbations as well - a Ruchi still remained. Would we be able to say that about Vijay Siva? And the Sanskriti I talked about in the compositions backed up any loss of music due to stress.

Coming back to Ganesh - there is not too much time given for "too much" in kamala manohari but the "has" has too much time allocated to it disproportionately.

I guess Samskrit ( by influence all descendant or loaner languages within the Indian land ) is named Sams - krit for a reason.

That is why I was conjecturing if Italian will help.

As I noted sometime somewhere in the forum - I realized the profundity of some of the Vedic verses only after observing things half way around the world. So if I didn't understand the "lyrics" as we call them when they were sung - not a big deal !. To understand Ancients back in time - you look back half way around into U.S - just like Astronomers do - to understand back in time they try to look half way around the universe.

Arasi might call it Gastronomy as she did in her 10 year poem of the site - but there is some truth to it!

[Nick H]

Don't they call Italian the Telugu of Europe?

[shankarank]

Yeah.. Harold Powers does mention that.. in his papers..

[GautamTejasGaneshan]

...has anyone ever come to you on stage after the concert and said those English lyrics indeed moved me?

Yes, certainly - it happens often.
People also say "Now I finally understand Carnatic music!"

Keep in mind we're talking about people whose native language is American English
(like me, and probably unlike a majority of rasikas.org.)

And also people for whom CM is just another interesting thing happening in the world,
rather than people who have a frame of reference & comparison,
as well as a built-up body of opinion about it.

Incidentally, a few other things - I'm pretty much the first one to do this,
and you can't compare a Ford Model T to a Tesla Model S a century later!

And, it wasn't my decision to speak American English excellently,
and Tamil only with a struggle. That's fate. "Thalai Ezhutthu."

By the way have you sung english lyrics as viruththam /slokham in ragamaliga. If yes please point to the specific recording with the start?

Yes, I used to take quotes for these and for pallavis. Recently I've got my own. Maybe I'll circle back & give you specifics, but meanwhile feel free to poke around my videos. (You'd also thereby witness my learning curve, by extrapolation of which I oughta be something special when I'm 60!)

English lyrics for carnatic - unsahikyable...

A fair response. In English.

Just wanted to clarify that I tried to understand the words (as English is the only language I know well), and although I did not really succeed in the few songs that I listened to, it did not matter too much. The music was still enjoyable. Somewhat the same as with regular CM.

I can do a better job enunciating. And keep listening - just wait until you DO understand the words, in the moment!

Taken as a whole, what I'm singing, lyrically speaking, is certainly a big part of what I'm offering aesthetically.
They're songs, not only music, and in this they conform to the best of CM.
I've tried voice-as-instrument concerts - i.e. no songs.
More than a dozen of them are available for you to listen.
They're "aight".

Your comment illustrates that there may be a need for what I'm doing -
to re-establish literary value, and song value (which is its own special thing - not exactly poetry),
among people for whom "English is the only language I know well."

...there is not too much time given for "too much" in kamala manohari but the "has" has too much time allocated to it disproportionately.

Bhesh.

I guess Samskrit ( by influence all descendant or loaner languages within the Indian land ) is named Sams - krit for a reason.

Samskrit is pretty good, yes. I dunno if Telugu is a "descendant or loaner," but maybe your point is at least half true.

The thing is, writing in English instead of "languages within the Indian land"
(where English has been for 400 years - longer than "koluvai yunnADe kondandapAni") -

Anyway, writing in English certainly results in something lost, something gained.
You can't deny that I'm serious about it, and that in my work are realized some interesting things.

As I noted sometime somewhere in the forum - I realized the profundity of some of the Vedic verses only after observing things half way around the world.

That's you. Original rishis probably didn't travel that much. (Well, maybe astral travel or something.)

- G

[shankarank]

shankarank wrote:
As I noted sometime somewhere in the forum - I realized the profundity of some of the Vedic verses only after observing things half way around the world.

That's you. Original rishis probably didn't travel that much. (Well, maybe astral travel or something.)

Well since you used the word original - I would have to comment - that sounds like the Originalist intepretation of the constitutions - something that is taken as fixed at the time of enactment. Something informed by Biblical doctrines.

Vedic verses are apaurusheya ( origin not known) and have been interpreted in different ways in the scholarly realm at various times.

When I said I realized - certain meanings are reflected within my realm of experience - which is normally dismissed with "it's you" subjectivity play. It may not qualify for dissemination as a valid one - as that involves study / debate and acknowledgement by scholars. But still it is an experiential truth that is knowledge to me.

To digress a bit, my pet peeve has always been while I live amidst the evangelists in a US Suburb at peace, that american value ( of freedom/coexistence) has not informed their theology as much as their theology ( the much cited Judaeo-Christian values) has informed American values. They may head to Sunday Sermons and hear my ilk called Pagans/Idolaters!

The latter I would view it as originalist - not the vedic tradition. The scholars add new interpretation to it based on new experiential truths shared by the community and acknowledged by the peers but there is no purging in the sense there is no radical departure or contradiction from the original sense of it.

[shankarank]

Anyway, writing in English certainly results in something lost, something gained.
You can't deny that I'm serious about it, and that in my work are realized some interesting things.

Yes.. it is always good if a set of words set to great music also reflect something more than mundane truths.. That spirit is in in conformance with Samskriti in particular - but also all of classic literature, if not art. That may be a requirement in the long run although it may not seem to matter in a specific concert.

Nevertheless a critique can be offered from some specific position anyways!

[Nick H]

Yeah.. Harold Powers does mention that.. in his papers..

I don't know if the quote I was making a parody of its his. I suspect he would have said it the way I am used to hearing it

[Pratyaksham Bala]

.
wikipedia :-
"The 16th-century Venetian explorer Niccolò de' Conti, who visited the Vijayanagara Empire, found that the words in Telugu language end with vowels, just like those in Italian, and hence referred it as "The Italian of the East"; a saying that has been widely repeated."

[Nick H]

Thank you!

I guess that shankarank sees it as a Western-centric view, and I can see that point of view. It is useful to describe an Indian language is western terms to westerners. Definition in Western terms is another matter.

But we digress...

[sureshvv]

I agree, & I often wonder if T would show up at the Music Academy and say "Well guys, good work on all the additional chiselled sangatis, but how 'bout some songs depicting this generation's honest adoration for Rama - or any ishta deivam of your choosing!" I think the music fraternity & sorority would be embarrassed by such a statement, if they took it seriously.

Actually there are quite a few contemporary composers. But their compositions start out as post main "thukkadas". As they gain traction and more adventurous vidwans/vidhushis present them, they get pushed up to the pre submain section of the concert (or as a filler, depending on how fast it could be sung).

It may be a long time before they are sung as main though.