Historic Concert by Sangita Kalanidhi Smt Sudha Ragunathan at the UN

shankarabharanam · Post by **shankarabharanam** » 01 Oct 2016, 18:43

Dear Rasikas,

https://postimg.org/image/5uz1yrjlt/
As we all know, after fifty years the UN is going to reverberate with sound of carnatic music. To commemorate the 100 year birth anniversary of the legend Bharat Ratna Smt MS Subbulakshmi, received this email from Smt Sudha.

I just saw that the event will be webcast tomorrow at 10 AM EST (East Coast time) which is 7.30 PM (IST). It is indeed a proud moment for all the rasikas of music. Here is the link where the event can be watched live

http://webtv.un.org/live-now/watch/inte ... 9801949001

All the best to Smt Sudha Ragunnathan and her team.

vilomachapu · Post by **vilomachapu** » 02 Oct 2016, 18:11

This is the greatest insult to MS on her centenary year. But the UN itself is now a toothless body not able to do anything against roguish Pakistan and the IS, etc. So, I think it is now appropriate for UN to host light musicians like Sudha. Next who at UN? Rama Verma, Nityasri, Kunnakusi BMK? Great.

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 02 Oct 2016, 18:41

Can you spend some time explaining how MS is "classical" or whatever ? There are many unsure about that too!

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 02 Oct 2016, 19:45

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 02 Oct 2016, 19:51

Concert will continue later after a few formalities.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 02 Oct 2016, 20:00

vilomachapu wrote: Next who at UN?

A R Rahman, actually.

And you don't see any improvement now, with Sudha?

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 02 Oct 2016, 21:14

She changed her saree during the break!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 Oct 2016, 21:24

Sachi! LOL

Invocation - SAnti nilava vENDum
and a few verses on ahimsa

Sobhillu sapta svara
vINA bhEri
Currently sarOjadala nEtri starting from the AP (parAku sEyaka varadAyaki...)

Sri RKSK is sublime....

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 Oct 2016, 21:46

Neveral at the time-tested sAma gAna vinOdini
Several rounds of svaras - I felt the phrases were made to align with the 'major scale' than with SanakarAbharaNam, strictly
Very nice, energetic, and short tani
jagadOddhAraNa now

Smt. Sudha's voice is giving her problems, IMO.....

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 02 Oct 2016, 22:04

I listened to the sublime concert of Smt. Gaayathri Venkataraghavan on Paalam.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 Oct 2016, 22:10

mahAkavi's nenjukku nIdiyum
dhanO dhAnyo pushpO bharO (will definitely be understood by the Bangaldeshi delegation!)

Ends with
kuRai onRum illai
maitrIm bhajata
rAm dhun (raghupati rAghava rAjA rAm)

If the voice issues are from GERD, I do hope she's been offered fundoplication as an option.....

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 02 Oct 2016, 22:17

The best part was what Smt. Sudha said (as an extension of the tamizh pronunciation thread, I have to say that she was very articulate, and had no problems differentiating her 'v's from her 'w's unlike many Indians!)

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 02 Oct 2016, 22:17

I just joined after KApi break and heard the thukkada tail.

vaazhga nee enmaan - nAdanAmakriya + sindhubhairavi- subramania bharathi on Gandhiji
nenjekku neediyum - sindhbhairavi

Bengali song with sankrit lyrics at the end -Dhono dhanno pushpe bhora - dwijendra lal Rai

kurai onrum illai - shivaranjani - Rajaji

maithreem bhajatha - ragamaliga - HH chandrasekara saraswati

raghupathi raghava rAjaram

Certainly she had voice problems and shruthi lapse(especially in kurai onrum illai and raghupathi rAja ram with JAlrA ) .
On a jovial note the announcer finally said Miss Sudha Raghunathan and her mesemerizing voice when she and her accompanist team received bouquet

kudos to team - could have been better.

pvs · Post by **pvs** » 03 Oct 2016, 00:12

With all due respect, it appears this concert at the UN is much ado about nothing. The UN is not a musically erudite forum and it's just a free ticket to the connected. SR is way past her best singing days and lacks the one thing people look for in music around the world - perfect pitch. Her glancing at notes for every song is best left unmentioned... The concert appears like a long long tail of thukkadas from MS's book. The accompanists are top class (especially RKSK) but they always are expected to play second fiddle, if you pardon the pun.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 03 Oct 2016, 08:43

My take on this concert, and even the MSS concert in the UNGA 1966, and largely all overseas concerts of Indian music to eclectic audiences, is that it is largely symbolic of our culture reaching out and embracing new audiences.

There is a universality to all music in terms of the basic effects of melody and rhythm on humans. Then there is a strong culture quotient in a genre like Carnatic music.

Perhaps every educated and aware human today wants to try and connect across cultures. The epitome of such an exercise is that a leading artiste like MSS from CM presents a neat concert with good accompaniment as an offering from our culture at the UNGA. It is first and foremost symbolic. Second it makes every CM rasika feel proud and good to see and hear our best artistes go and perform with elan in such forums.

The Sudha concert is a kind of tribute to this global outreach phenomenon. I wouldn't give 'too much' importance to the quality of her voice or standard of CM delivered on such an occasion. (it is not a defining moment like a season concert at MA). Also the significance of the occasion, the scale of the audience, the impact this tribute concert would make, is not to be compared with the historic magnitude of the MSS concert at UN.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Oct 2016, 08:50

With all due regard for symbolism, the ARR show followed by this has been an anticlimax.

shankarabharanam · Post by **shankarabharanam** » 03 Oct 2016, 09:04

Ok my report is first hand. I was there to witness this historic moment. Let's accept the fact that a Carnatic musician got an opportunity to perform at this venue after 50 years.

There were issues with webcast and I had people who told that her voice was breaking but in reality it wasn't. What more can you expect in a one hour concert. She paid tribute to the trinities, included a dasa krithi and then a tribute to MS. Being a peace mission concert she had to include the last set of krithis.

Also please don't underestimate the audience who came there. There were many who literally sang the bharatiyar songs with her. Our music has reached a larger audience. You had to be there to feel the ambience. Every word that the artists even murmured was heard and if at all she had some voice issues it wasn't earth shattering.

As a rasikas who grew up listening to MS UN tapes this was an opportunity that I couldn't miss. For all those who criticized try to respect the artist who has achieved so much and was really a cultural ambassador today at the UN.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 03 Oct 2016, 09:16

Please enlighten me. Is this the same hall in which MSS had performed, and ARR performed recently? Somehow the MSS concert seemed to have been staged on a much larger scale in a bigger auditorium.

shankarabharanam · Post by **shankarabharanam** » 03 Oct 2016, 09:23

No this wasn't the general assembly I think.. We weren't told which hall it was. Once the security check was done we were just guided to the auditorium by the security guys. And after the concert we stayed for few mins before we guided back in to the lobby

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 03 Oct 2016, 14:57

Rsachi wrote:My take on this concert, and even the MSS concert in the UNGA 1966, and largely all overseas concerts of Indian music to eclectic audiences, is that it is largely symbolic of our culture reaching out and embracing new audiences.

Absolutely. God forbid that it should be [more] filmy or fusion rubbish --- but there is also no reason to expect that it should be a December-season Music-Academy 9.00am performance.

In the ARR-debacle debate I had suggested Aruna Sairam as an ideal ambassador; I am very happy that Sudha gave this concert.

shankarabharanam wrote:Ok my report is first hand. I was there to witness this historic moment. Let's accept the fact that a Carnatic musician got an opportunity to perform at this venue after 50 years.

Wonderful to know that you were actually there!

vilomachapu · Post by **vilomachapu** » 03 Oct 2016, 18:02

A R Rahman, actually. And you don't see any improvement now, with Sudha?

What improvement? Both are the same.

True, MS's music cannot also be called strictly classical. That was not because she could not sing pure classical. She was made to sing popular music by..... everyone knows who. But till the last MS maintained her sruti perfection and her voice control and voice production were amazing. Also, she could sing in perfect classical mould the swarajtis of Shyama Sastri and kritis like 'srI mUlAdhAra chakra', 'mahAlakshmi karunarasa lahari' etc. Wonder how Sadasivan allowed her to sing such masterpieces, though only very rarely. Sudha can't even dream of even looking up at MS in such things.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 03 Oct 2016, 18:43

vilomachapu wrote: True, MS's music cannot also be called strictly classical.

What is then? If MSS is not then I am a hip hop fan. There is a LOT of information on this forum discussing the same issue, from people who have been very close and attached to MS / Sadasivam family to people who've never heard her live but have re-lived her music via recordings.

If you are still burying your head in the sand and spouting the same rubbish, then all we can do is pity, point fingers at you and laugh cos you are a biased idiot.

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 03 Oct 2016, 19:07

I got hold of MSS's melaragamalika CD. I think she recorded this long after she became very popular. This very tough composition has been rendered by her with all its gravitas and complexity.

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 03 Oct 2016, 19:27

MaheshS wrote:
vilomachapu wrote: True, MS's music cannot also be called strictly classical.
What is then? If MSS is not then I am a hip hop fan. There is a LOT of information on this forum discussing the same issue, from people who have been very close and attached to MS / Sadasivam family to people who've never heard her live but have re-lived her music via recordings.

If you are still burying your head in the sand and spouting the same rubbish, then all we can do is pity, point fingers at you and laugh cos you are a biased idiot.

MaheshS, did you jump the gun there. The second and subsequent sentences by vilomachapu provide much needed context on that particular assertion.

I for one don't consider mira bhajans and the bengali/oriya/hindi/whatev songs that MS sang as CM; it is not because I understand other south indian languages either and appreciate the nuances, except tamil. They might be in carnatic ragams preserving the gamakams but to me they aren't in "carnatic idiom", call it conditioning. I wouldn't hesitate to walk out of a concert where she started to sing the bhajans/thumris/khayals etc.

MaheshS · Post by **MaheshS** » 03 Oct 2016, 19:31

sankark wrote:
MaheshS wrote:
vilomachapu wrote: True, MS's music cannot also be called strictly classical.
What is then? If MSS is not then I am a hip hop fan. There is a LOT of information on this forum discussing the same issue, from people who have been very close and attached to MS / Sadasivam family to people who've never heard her live but have re-lived her music via recordings.

If you are still burying your head in the sand and spouting the same rubbish, then all we can do is pity, point fingers at you and laugh cos you are a biased idiot.
MaheshS, did you jump the gun there. The second and subsequent sentences by vilomachapu provide much needed context on that particular assertion.

I for one don't consider mira bhajans and the bengali/oriya/hindi/whatev songs that MS sang as CM; it is not because I understand other south indian languages either and appreciate the nuances, except tamil. They might be in carnatic ragams preserving the gamakams but to me they aren't in "carnatic idiom", call it conditioning. I wouldn't hesitate to walk out of a concert where she started to sing the bhajans/thumris/khayals etc.

No. For one, you should see his other posts to see where he is coming from. Two, he said classical, not Carnatic classical. And I agree with you on "I for one don't consider mira bhajans and the bengali/oriya/hindi/whatev songs that MS sang as CM" , it may be my lack of understanding the lyrics / language / music structure, but I am not a big fan either.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Oct 2016, 20:29

The last concert i heard was in 1994 in Sree Ram Seva Mandali and it was a fully classical one, with O Ranga Sayee as the main piece.

kvchellappa · Post by **kvchellappa** » 03 Oct 2016, 20:35

A concert is in commercial space and a package. The artist does take care of diverse listener choices. In any case many people walk as the tani starts. I do not understand why a hindustani raga adapted and sung as a main piece is on par with CM, but a later piece sung in hindustani raga is not on par with javaali, kavadi chindu, etc.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 03 Oct 2016, 23:20

shankarank wrote:Can you spend some time explaining how MS is "classical" or whatever ? There are many unsure about that too!

vilomachapu wrote:True, MS's music cannot also be called strictly classical.

I think viloma chapu missed the rhetorical satire of shankarank

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 04 Oct 2016, 00:43

We don't wear our yet-to-made badges (Kokilam, I know!). Still, how empowered we feel--to speak glibly even about a legend born a century ago, let alone a highly successful popular chanteuse

As if we are not used to music which is strictly just that--that is, a classical CM concert (as Nick said, a morning concert in the season at MA).

NavarAtri time. Amateurs at home and pros in sabhAs are singing away! Let the spirit of the festival prevail

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 04 Oct 2016, 10:21

vilomachapu wrote:True, MS's .... kritis like 'srI mUlAdhAra chakra', 'mahAlakshmi karunarasa lahari' etc.

Pointers to MS rendering the above songs most welcome. I have heard this by Vijay Siva in a CD album. IIRC, that also featured a fantastic mAyUranAtham & srI sundararAjam

hnbhagavan · Post by **hnbhagavan** » 05 Oct 2016, 10:07

Post#2 Vilomachapu,
I wonder whom you are considering as good Carnatic Musicians.The way you lam blast musicians,are there any musicians at all worth these days?
i would like to know your list.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 05 Oct 2016, 16:49

Vilomachapu,

It is really very painful to read your posting on your opinion on MSSAmma -'music can not be called strictly classical' and 'wonder how Sadasivan allowed her to sing such master pieces'.
Music which is based on lakshya and lakshana of art form; practitioner's sense of mind making higher demand imagination, ideation and creativity (manodharma); practitioner's sense of mind experiences pleasure of outcome of creativity and partakes experienced pleasure in delivery to the rasikas; practitioner and rasikas experiencing the pleasure in recall of pleasure in experience, are given the identity of classical (shastriya). MSSAmma's music is not only classical, it is exceptional and extraordinary. MSSAmma achieved the ideal of rare accomplishment of 'Pandita Ranjakatvam' with the stamp and seal of 'Sangita Kalanidhi' title and honor of Music Academy.

MSSAmma's rise was 'to fame' and 'to vidwath'. TS Mama consciously played major role in rise 'to fame' and fully supportive role in rise 'to vidwath'; MSSAmma consciously played a minor role in rise 'to fame' and major role in rise 'to vidwath'-in all modes of manodharma. This is factual, rest speculation or hearsay or ignorance.

I urge you to realize and act.

HarishankarK · Post by **HarishankarK** » 05 Oct 2016, 17:21

Sudha RAGHUNATHAN is most definitely a true exponent of carnatic classical music.
Congratulations to her on this achievement.
She may not be MSS but she is also great in her own right.

vilomachapu · Post by **vilomachapu** » 05 Oct 2016, 18:29

Pointers to MS rendering the above songs most welcome

Mahalakshmi Karunarasalahari-Madhava Manohari
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5QrKHAUzDc

Sri Mooladhara-Sri
http://kartheeksharma.blogspot.in/2016/ ... -3-mb.html

Both by MS and strictly classical without the kurai onrum illai or dhano dhanya touches, excepting the unwanted sangati in the anupallavi of the Sri ragam song.

I dont want to reply to people who have weak stomachs and to someone who has called me an idiot in another post and to those who rae aghast that I should have criticised the 'Goddess' of Music. And Mr Munirao, I stand by my conviction. Sadasivam should have, at least later in MS's career allowed her to sing major masterpieces of the Trinity instead of the usual bhajanai songs in umpteen languages. I am prepared to elaborate on this if anyone is interested. The lady was capable of much greater music as testified by the above two recordings and the yadukulakambhoji and todi swarajatis..

shankarank · Post by **shankarank** » 06 Oct 2016, 09:37

vilomachapu, those kind of questions are tenuous questions to ask when we know how much difficulty Dikshitar/Shyama Sastri compositions faced in getting into prevalence in the hard core musical milieu - let alone in popular space.

You are underestimating the amount of receptiveness required in warming up to viSrAnti filled music. There were people who learnt music under somebody like kiTTAmaNi iyer of MVI school, who started out as SSI fans , became GNB fans and still continued to call out any slow renditions as "ennatu idu izhuttu izhuttu pAdaratu" (what is this stretch and pull singing) . Brinda-Mukta kutcheri - we cannot listen for more than an hour they would say - even as they were well aware of the depth of the gamakams. If learned people were such - you can imagine the plight of general listeners.

I think MSS in the right sadas continued to render the ones you are saying she should have.

Doing full justice to Renditions of demanding kritis is harder as people age - we don't know the personal reasons and limitations in this regard. As you can see she is well recorded - and we don't miss anything.

There are many other Vidushis in 80s /90s/ the Bhakti era of MSS , who were capable of doing this - given that the weight of the music will carry itself and you don't need an MS - and it was up to the music community to have supported them.

In an age when the very samskriti of music is under seige - to begrudge the singing of Bhajans is unfair.

People who held the type of information that you hold about MSS' classical forays even some 10/15 years back were very few. They were the avid collectors of music - you would hear things like how MSS sang mEla rAga varNA mAlika in 6 continuous years at MA 2 per year etc - even as you hear the SRJ Lecdem on it ( hot out of the oven from Los Alamos - thank you VKV Sir!) and the very existence of such a thing for the first time in your life.

Her GuruguhavAni recording in the bicentennial year of MD is another treat - I cannot forget hearing for the first time Sri MUladahara , Angarakam and tyAgaraja yOga vaibhavam etc.

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 06 Oct 2016, 11:42

Vilomachapu Sir,

No one can disagree with you on fact of MSSAmma's Vidwath should have received well deserved higher appreciation, acceptance and support. Upanishads identified three critical factors for a shrouti/performer's delivery, expressions. They are aangika, body language; vaachika, word (s) stress in expression; maanasika, inner self expression (inner consciousness to outer consciousness, outer consciousness to universal consciousness). Aangika and Vaachika are sthoolatmika, gross and maanasika, sookshmatmika, subtle. Sthoolatmika has instant attraction, appeal demanding only minimal attention for receptivity and judgment and sookshmatmika demands sense of mind in attention, seeking unity with the performer's sthoolatma for receptivity,appreciation and judgment.

Pandita, with vidwath does not need sthoolatmika and seeks sookshmatika. Paamara, uninitiated seeks sthoolatmika and does not will to seek sookshmatmika.

TSMama, great legendary Gurus and performer's maarga darshana resulted in MSSAmma to realize and achieve very high qualities, values. Semmengudi mama's bani shaped, formed the delivery in performances. Gurus teaching and saadhana resulted in sookshmatika; Image established in the universal appeal of paamara, resulted in sthoolatmika, in her planning, presentation, delivery in performances. Devotional music was the chosen medium and MSSAmma achieved great success. With the chosen ideal of Pandita-Pamara ranjakatva, performer has to succeed in judicious sense of proportion and balance in performances. MSSAmma is the role model for other practitioners. Paamara desires more of devotional and Pandita desires more of classicism. Visualization and perceptions seeking desire fulfillment results in happiness or unhappiness. It requires extra efforts to visualize and perceive the quality and values. Rasikas communication reflects the level of their success in their efforts in their determination. Opinion makers and other practitioners with heir own bias create challenges in confusion and conflicts. Truth of beliefs, faith and following power subdues the power of truth of facts, reality.

munirao2001

vineyan · Post by **vineyan** » 06 Oct 2016, 18:02

MS certainly had the capacity to deliver any tough Krithi with aplomb.But as Vilomachapu pointed out she preferred to be guided by TS in what she had to render in any concert. Any rendition of her like Viriboni or SriMuladhara or Melaragamalika bore her stamp of classicism beyond doubt. People who have listened to her for years together can see her evolvment and also the shift she made in later years after 1970s

munirao2001 · Post by **munirao2001** » 06 Oct 2016, 18:52

Vineyan,

TS mama by nature, was a perfectionist. TS mama was a mentor to MSSAmma. An issue of understanding between TS mama and MSSAmma is no issue for any other, not in personal relationship.

munirao2001

sankark · Post by **sankark** » 06 Oct 2016, 18:58

shankarank wrote:vilomachapu, those kind of questions are tenuous questions to ask when we know how much difficulty Dikshitar/Shyama Sastri compositions faced in getting into prevalence in the hard core musical milieu - let alone in popular space.

If MD/SS, and OVK, compositions faced difficulty in getting into prevalence in the musical milieu, it hardly would have been a "hard core" musical milieu.

Tangential: this morning program in Chennai 720 AM featured mahAlakshmi karunA. Believe it was sumitra vasudev. If TVG had recorded, should be available in sp.org. Featured a superb sAveri and begada item of mazhavai chidambara bharathi, similar mettu to kadaikkan vaithennai

Rsachi · Post by **Rsachi** » 06 Oct 2016, 20:43

MODERATORS,
SORRY for the caps.

I feel a thread like this one,

which set out to celebrate the fact that a vidushi of no mean stature like Sangita Kalanidhi Sudha Raghunathan, in the company of accompanists who had performed several times with the one and only "Bharata Ratna" "MSS" at the UN, on Gandhi Jayanti,

is deteriorating into a discussion of these musicians' capabilities, follies, and failures etc.

Do we want to paint ourselves, self-congratulaotory rasikas, in such colours? Today you can google a phrase like
"Sangita Kalanidhi Smt Sudha Ragunathan at the UN" and land directly at the rasikas.org page - this thread. A casual outsider trying to understand our dynamics will wonder about what we want to say, and when, and how.

If anyone is offended by what I have written, my apologies.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 06 Oct 2016, 20:47

Sachi - couldn't agree more. My apologies if my comment on her voice problems derailed any of these discussions, but I think that the diversion of the topic occurred well before that.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 07 Oct 2016, 00:32

Discussions veering off into other directions is unfortunately too common and sometimes through prodding by others (like Sachi has done here ), it gets back on track. Here the derailment happened with vilomachapu answering seriously what I thought was shankarank's rhetorical question. But the underlying theme is about certain rasikas' opinion that certain artists are not classical enough whatever may be the reason and others taking exception to that point of view...for the umpteenth time. To look at the positive side, we got some references to some rarely heard MSS renditions.

I will move the MSS related discussion somewhere else.(don't know where yet )

Let us get back to Sudha's concert, if there is anything remaining to be discussed there,