Format and creativity

[kvchellappa]

Sanjay made a point that the format of CM cannot be viewed as limiting creativity. He compared how a painter has to limit his picture wihin the canvas and can be creative within that limitation.
Today I came across this quotation in TOI puzzles section:
“A great artist can paint a great picture on a small canvas.” Charles Dudley Warner.

[KSJaishankar]

The implied conclusion (that only an artist who can paint a great picture on a small canvas is actually great) is a syllogism. So, is the Last Supper by Leonardo da Vinci, measuring a gigantic 29 feet by 15 feet, not a great picture, or da Vinci not a great artist for choosing such a large "canvas"?

Yes - an artist who can paint a great picture on a small canvas is great, but to be a great artist does not mean he/she cannot choose a large canvas!

[Sachi_R]

Sriram Parasuram mentioned somewhere how Sri MSG advised him when he was very young, that he should learn to play a raga in 30 sec, 2 min, 5 min and 8 min.
Mastery of music at least demands the ability to pack the music into any size of temporal canvas, of course within reasonable bounds.

[uday_shankar]

but to be a great artist does not mean he/she cannot choose a large canvas!

Also, to be a great artist does not mean he/she cannot choose a large amount of canvassing

[KSJaishankar]

but to be a great artist does not mean he/she cannot choose a large canvas!

Also, to be a great artist does not mean he/she cannot choose a large amount of canvassing

touche!

[kvchellappa]

The point, I gather from all this, is that format is a matter of choice, not a limitation for creativity.

[SrinathK]

For an artist, constraints and no constraints are just two different styles. It's for the audience to decide if they can tolerate a 3 hour elaboration of an RTP. Even with the current format, our fast paced lifestyles can't allow us to enjoy a 4 hour concert.

Lots of innovations have happened precisely BECAUSE of constraints -- most of which are efficient. To borrow from another field, I doubt if F1 engines could have doubled their thermodynamic efficiency (to 50%) had they not been constrained to using just 100 kg of fuel for a whole race at no more than 100 kg / hour. This particular field is probably the ultimate example of constraint governed innovation.

Even more simpler is Parkinson's law - "Work expands to fill the time allotted for it's completion". In Tim Ferris' Four Hour Workweek, he argues that the best way to become more efficient is to work with less time, sometimes bordering on the impossible. Ditto for money.

But unconstrained has a totally different flavour of its own. When are we going to hear a 2 hour RTP or an all night elaboration of a raga again? The challenge for the artist is now different -- the artist must now plumb his imagination to keep coming up with new ideas, trying his best not to get caught up in repetitive patterns.

Even the term unconstrained is a relative one -- the canvas just became a little bigger and even if you make the canvas as big as the universe, then the limitation is yourself.

[shankarank]

If we'd ever go back to ploughing using bulls - may be we'd regain attention span to listen to 4 hour pallavi!

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... y-shortage

Now the buzz seems to be let the bulls roam un-arable land to allow droppages of dung & urine to infest the soil to rejuvenate - and one day make it tract(o)(a)-rable again!

May be CM is going through that strategy!

[SrinathK]

If we'd ever go back to ploughing using bulls - may be we'd regain attention span to listen to 4 hour pallavi!

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... y-shortage

Now the buzz seems to be let the bulls roam un-arable land to allow droppages of dung & urine to infest the soil to rejuvenate - and one day make it tract(o)(a)-rable again!

May be CM is going through that strategy!

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... continues/

I wonder if the next presidential election will declare that as a myth ...

Back on point, I realized the difference in a music class where I was playing raga alapanas. I had taken up Purvikalyani and played an alapana that was 5 min long which included ideas from the recordings of concerts I've heard. So then my violin teacher tells me, "Good. You know how to present a raga. But do you know how to explore it?"

Then came an hour and a half of digging into phrases and finding a lot of that Purvikalyani and it was a totally different dimension, and we didn't even do the brighas. That was when I realized how much I didn't know. I mean it was easily the longest raga alapana I had ever been through by a factor of 2. It wasn't a structured presentation, rather exploring what worked. If we had gone to tanam, krithi, neraval and swaras, I have no doubt I would have finished only at dusk. I also realized that out of these hundreds of ideas that were shown to me that day, maybe only a handful can even appear on stage at any time.

I really wanted to ask my teacher how come no one explores a raga like this in a concert, but the answer was clear to me. You can't. Trust me, your brain won't be able to churn this kind of output with the challenges of the stage.

[shankarank]

Those who had the privilege to listen to SSI on his home Unjal confess - avarukku mEdaiyil atilE 5% kUDa varAtu

May be there is no creativity in music. Creativity is all about fitting the format

There hope for at least consuming some greens and more to come : https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... rty-cities

As Americans ask to us Veggies - you eat what food eats?

[arasi]

While you scientists/intellectuals/music lovers/musicians guide us through isai rasanai, some simple questions from a simpleton: why think that a four concert is passe'? There are many I know who are keen on one--Rajesh being one. nEram pOvadE teriyAmal irukka vaippadu nallisai allavA? (To make you forget the time duration of the concert--isn't that a mark of good musicianship?) AND the way we want it-- helping us forget the restrictions that modern life forces upon us with the bliss of a state of timelessness?

[shankarank]

Now the buzz seems to be let the bulls roam un-arable land to allow ..

vaittAlum vaittanar - avargalukku isai vELLalar endru peyar vaittanar

[shankarank]

why think that a four concert is passe'? There are many I know who are keen on one--Rajesh being one

As TNS asked in his discourse - agni perisA valartAl pOduma - Ahudi pODa vENAma?

[shankarank]

Just call it "art" music - then anything goes! - you don't even need a canvas! And food analogies become moot!

[arasi]

Shankarank,
The expression 'Art music' comes in handy!

"As Americans ask us Veggies, you eat what food eats?"
You are clubbing them all together, aren't you, in this day and age?

We have super vegan cakes for birthdays now. Vegan bakeries are coming up everywhere in the land. As for 'what food eats'... going back half a century...''You cook such good dishes (this from a strictly meat and potato eating family). "What in the world can we offer you when you come to dinner?". This made them invite us only for tea to start with, with a moan every time,"We don't know what to offer you for dinner (genuine regret), which made me finally come out with this: why don't you simply let us out? We can graze on the lawn, so long as it hasn't been fertilized in a while? No offense was taken. After all, we were friends So, you see,"We eat what food eats" were my words too, fifty years ago...

How things have changed! Many Americans--and ahead of them those across the pond have been mulling over the merits of vegetarian ways. The vegans make it a bit difficult when it comes to our home cooking with the dairy products we use in our food in one form or other! Of course, it'll be ages before the Texans and kin start thinking the vegetarian way!

[arasi]

Ahudi pODum agniyaip paTRithAn pEchu
TNS was spot on. Ahudi pODum AyAsamillAda nAngu maNi KachErigaLaip paTRithAn pEchu (Yes, I meant strictly those long concerts which feed the holy fire effortlessly and richly with offerings)

[shankarank]

So, you see,"We eat what food eats" were my words too, fifty years ago...

Well not just 50 years - "we are food" is a upaniShad vAkya! aham annam, aham annam, aham annam! - that it came to you by itself is like Newton and Leibniz separated by 2000 plus years

[arasi]

Or you and me, separated by thirty or forty years?

[shankarank]

True - we discover things independently! However American standards are lower. You should be called a sage!

I base it on nothing else other than what Sri B Rajam Iyer told me ( in my 20 minutes of interaction privilege) on the way from Comfort Inn, Cleveland Univ to the auditorium! I inquired about his pasupatISvaram that previous Tuesday that he sang - that I missed! He said if I asked about pasupatISvaram, especially in America, then I am indeed a vidvAn!

I got the undeserving title from .. along with the privilege to accompany him ( in the car )

But he didn't stop there, he started addressing me by name now, and sharing more of his thoughts : "whatever you say , there is some depth in Dikshitar's music" - good lord! - just outside the tyAgaraja Aradhana venue! With air tickets paid for by the utsavam!

So the hunt for "art" or creative - music started decades ago! Now you can understand why there is so much effort to discredit Bhakti!

[arasi]

Did BR speak to you in english or in tamizh? That would reveal what he meant by 'depth'. His vocabulary in english was rather limited, unlike in tamizh and sanskrit. For example, in english, everything he appreciated would be expressed in the adjective 'great'. In tamizh he surely would have elaborated, I guess.
His pATAntara of MD kritis are simply 'great'!

[shankarank]

Well the rest of the sentence was in Tamizh, but the word musical depth was said with such a stiff upper lip characteristic of our elders, that I think I know what he meant

[arasi]

Mmm, elders and stiff upper lip? That's hard, with our progressively (pun intended) sagging mouths

[vgovindan]

Artistic expresion is of two types - one that which is tailored to a consumer, and two that which is the expression of inner joy or yearning. In the latter case, no canvas can constrain the artist - in fact he is not any artist in the sense it is understood commonly. Then is born the likes of 'nA jIvAdhArA'. Here creativity is spontaneity. When the heart is talking even time stands still for the correspondents.

[varsha]

When A Steve Waugh plays a T20 it is a delight
https://archive.org/details/pUriya_kalyAN
---
When an artist of 6 minutes worth performs for 60 , it is torture.
---
Explains the allure of DV Paluskars LP Plates over decades, perhaps..
Cant think of anyone else compressing so much into so little space
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evDB5G_4R7w
and yet give us also a
https://archive.org/details/ShrIHariKeCharanKamal
-----
The ultimate clinching evidence in HM would always , for me , would be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FglVACXnQIk

and in CM...
https://archive.org/details/RTPVardhini1

[shankarank]

Mmm, elders and stiff upper lip? That's hard, with our progressively (pun intended) sagging mouths

English'na vuDanEyE ellAM spaShTamA vanduDum!

[shankarank]

Artistic expresion is of two types - one that which is tailored to a consumer, and two that which is the expression of inner joy or yearning. In the latter case, no canvas can constrain the artist - in fact he is not any artist in the sense it is understood commonly. Then is born the likes of 'nA jIvAdhArA'. Here creativity is spontaneity. When the heart is talking even time stands still for the correspondents.

You see , a Nobel laureate or one yet to be, who is sure of himself can afford to be humble. But an unrecognized , insecure person may be forced to be a bit brash, and even bitter at times.

The first kind of artistic expression that you described requires a culture of people living some inspired life, but currently we have people with pride of whatever that makes them economically productive, but at the end of day they are disgusted and seek some distraction.

Why hasn't there been an inspired composition of any recent times??

The only place of inspiration that is still left seems to be the hamlets still retaining the old ways of living, where a torn canvas will be sewed up to set sail into the seas! But to get there, an artiste is questioning and dismantling the last vestiges of something that is held intellectually, thanks to our lakshanakArAs who captured some inspired past into grammar.

But there still the possibility that if you support artistic excellence in the meanwhile, in the grammatical sense, you or your descendants may get that one that may inspire you! Until then you have to wait!