Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
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Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Sorry if it feels like if I am asking too many question. I am trying to get into Carnatic Sangeet as I only listen to Hindustani Sangeet. So, I am trying to find out the difference between the two. I am starting by listening to mainly Sanskrit Kritis as those seem familiar to me.
One thing that keeps me from getting into Carnatic Sangeet is how the singers sing the words (vowels and consonants). The vowels themselves seem different than the vowels sung by Hindustani musicians. In Carnatic singers the vowels have this "rough" quality to it instead of smooth vowels used by Hindustani singers. Even when they are singing Sanskrit kritis there is sort of Dravidian (Tamil, Telugu etc) accent that makes the performance very foreign sounding. Of course to native Dravidian languages speakers this may not be even noticeable but to me this feels very jarring. So my question is why do Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit kritis with Dravidian phonology? Surely it is not controversial to say that phonology of Indo-Aryan languages is closer to that of Sanskrit compared to Dravidian languages.
One thing that keeps me from getting into Carnatic Sangeet is how the singers sing the words (vowels and consonants). The vowels themselves seem different than the vowels sung by Hindustani musicians. In Carnatic singers the vowels have this "rough" quality to it instead of smooth vowels used by Hindustani singers. Even when they are singing Sanskrit kritis there is sort of Dravidian (Tamil, Telugu etc) accent that makes the performance very foreign sounding. Of course to native Dravidian languages speakers this may not be even noticeable but to me this feels very jarring. So my question is why do Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit kritis with Dravidian phonology? Surely it is not controversial to say that phonology of Indo-Aryan languages is closer to that of Sanskrit compared to Dravidian languages.
Last edited by Yajmir on 28 Sep 2017, 14:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
.... duplicate as below
Last edited by rajeshnat on 28 Sep 2017, 10:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
YajmirYajmir wrote: ↑28 Sep 2017, 10:20 Sorry if it feels like if I am asking too many question. I am trying to get into Karnataka Sangeet as I only listen to Hindustani Sangeet. So, I am trying to find out the difference between the two. I am starting by listening to mainly Sanskrit Kritis as those seem familiar to me.
....
I think you have to state Carnatic singers rather Karnataka singers as many will misunderstand what you wrote getting confused with the state Karnataka. By any chance Are you related/accquainted to Madhava Muni Rao, he used to always to call the common nomenclature Carnatic with Karnataka. I have not seen any body saying Carnatic Sangeet but u can choose either Carnatic Sangeet or just say Carnatic Music.
I am glad that a person who has started to listen CM coming only from Sanskrit Krithis . After All Carnatic mUsic is very much a north indian music as much as a south indian music. Welcome to the forum
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Oh, I meant Carnatic music and not the music from the state of Karnataka only
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
I think it is vice versa.when I listen to HM singers I find their sanskrit diction odd.also the way svarams are sung / prononced is different.
Even the purohits/pandits in north India recite slokas /mantras in a totally different way.While in the south it is crisp there it is elongated.So I think this way of pronounciation is directly reflecting in music also.
Even the purohits/pandits in north India recite slokas /mantras in a totally different way.While in the south it is crisp there it is elongated.So I think this way of pronounciation is directly reflecting in music also.
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Suppose Hindustani musician and Carnatic musician are made to sing "aakar" (aa vowel). To me aakar of Carnatic musician sound so foreign as if they are speaking foreign language. The throat position, mouth shape and voice production technique of Carnatic singer seems to be radically different from that of Hindustani singer. Of course for someone who is steeped into Carnatic music this doesn't sound foreign but to beginner who doesn't come from South India it sounds so foreign. This feels like the biggest hurdle to me in appreciating Carnatic music as someone who has been listening to Hindustani music from childhood. It really hard to explain in words. Thank your for the replies
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Dear Yajmir,
I am a lover of music which implies it is unconditional and I equally like HM like that of CM and I earnestly try to understand it with my full understanding that it is different from CM.
In a diverse nation like ours U will find it everywhere not just in music but food,customs,etc.
A girl from our family is married to a punjabi and she has become a total punjabi which shows her commitment and am happy about that.
Pl.try to love CM with its differences and am sure U will love it soon.
I am a lover of music which implies it is unconditional and I equally like HM like that of CM and I earnestly try to understand it with my full understanding that it is different from CM.
In a diverse nation like ours U will find it everywhere not just in music but food,customs,etc.
A girl from our family is married to a punjabi and she has become a total punjabi which shows her commitment and am happy about that.
Pl.try to love CM with its differences and am sure U will love it soon.
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Yajmir,
Your name is so beautiful.
Yajamana is a very important Vedic name for one who undertakes and performs the sacrificial fire ritual. Amir/Emir means king or nobleman in Hindi and Urdu.
Welcome.
This topic is dear to me.
There are some domain experts in rasikas.org who are REAL masters of this and related subjects. They normally remain invisible and inactive like Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, unless we stir up some noise and supplicate to them for resolution.
I feel the best way to zero in on any such differences is to choose any popular shloka you like, or any Samskrita song sung by a north Indian classical singer, and give us a link to listen to the audio. I will then try and get the SAME or similar song sung by a Carnatic singer (by being lucky as Google promises.)
Then we can compare, analyse, dissect and conclude.
But prima facie,
1. EVERY Indian and foreign speaker of Samskrita has an accent informed by his mother tongue or worse English medium education. This may be INESCAPABLE.
2. Samskrita recitations are learnt by Carnatic singers with a lot of application.
Now even an extremely poorly educated man like me has received many compliments from north Indians ( who are into Samskrita), during my stay in north India and during my many sojourns there, that my Samskrita pronunciation is excellent and better than theirs. In my case too, 1 and 2 apply. So I think there is a lot of listener bias/conditioning in all this
I would like to say finally that Yajmir, you are a welcome friend and resource around here. Let us build bridges (सेतवः) and even palaces (प्रासादाः) together! I need to understand Hindustani music and Hindustani rasikas much better than I do today.
Happy Navaratri
Your name is so beautiful.
Yajamana is a very important Vedic name for one who undertakes and performs the sacrificial fire ritual. Amir/Emir means king or nobleman in Hindi and Urdu.
Welcome.
This topic is dear to me.
There are some domain experts in rasikas.org who are REAL masters of this and related subjects. They normally remain invisible and inactive like Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, unless we stir up some noise and supplicate to them for resolution.
I feel the best way to zero in on any such differences is to choose any popular shloka you like, or any Samskrita song sung by a north Indian classical singer, and give us a link to listen to the audio. I will then try and get the SAME or similar song sung by a Carnatic singer (by being lucky as Google promises.)
Then we can compare, analyse, dissect and conclude.
But prima facie,
1. EVERY Indian and foreign speaker of Samskrita has an accent informed by his mother tongue or worse English medium education. This may be INESCAPABLE.
2. Samskrita recitations are learnt by Carnatic singers with a lot of application.
Now even an extremely poorly educated man like me has received many compliments from north Indians ( who are into Samskrita), during my stay in north India and during my many sojourns there, that my Samskrita pronunciation is excellent and better than theirs. In my case too, 1 and 2 apply. So I think there is a lot of listener bias/conditioning in all this
I would like to say finally that Yajmir, you are a welcome friend and resource around here. Let us build bridges (सेतवः) and even palaces (प्रासादाः) together! I need to understand Hindustani music and Hindustani rasikas much better than I do today.
Happy Navaratri
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Thank you for the replies. I think because I am conditioned to Hindustani music, the differences are sticking out. Maybe it is the unique gamakas of Carnatic music that confused me to believe that there are difference in phonology As I listen more I will surely get used to the style of Carnatic music. After all Carnatic music is also Raga Sangeet and I don't want to miss the Rasa of Raga Sangeet because there are diffrences.
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Carnatic music takes a lot of getting used to. Come back in a decade
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Yajmir
You have a 3 day window period to edit. You can edit atleast the title Karnataka and change it to Carnatic and resubmit the post so that it is contextual for all to follow .
Unlike SureshVV You dont have to wait for a decade to get to used to . Just take a paper and pen just jot down basic song list and write it here. In 5 posts and /or a month you will get used to music. May be Suresh had to do that because he was pushed to work in different city (without that much access to live music) after he just started . I am assuming you are somewhere in an Indian city so you will love it.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 28 Sep 2017, 14:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Yajmir,
Pls listen to these three tracks, will be a good intro to CM:
1.https://youtu.be/yfD8EEN9sd0
2. https://youtu.be/svNfDcNmu0o
3. https://youtu.be/bJDDBr-KqZM
These three musicians are some of the best.
You will understand how a raga unfolds, and how there is a dynamic between main and accompanist artistes.
The second and third tracks highlight different approaches to compositions (both in Samskrita).
Pls listen to these three tracks, will be a good intro to CM:
1.https://youtu.be/yfD8EEN9sd0
2. https://youtu.be/svNfDcNmu0o
3. https://youtu.be/bJDDBr-KqZM
These three musicians are some of the best.
You will understand how a raga unfolds, and how there is a dynamic between main and accompanist artistes.
The second and third tracks highlight different approaches to compositions (both in Samskrita).
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Thank you for listing the recordings. I enjoyed the Balamuralikrishna piece especially the Sargam part. Also, the more I listen to the Balamuralikrishna piece the more I realize that there is nothing wrong with the diction and phonology but the difference is rather in the gamakas which sounds very different than the ones used in Hindustani music. And please list some more "essential" recordings so I can listen more carefully. I will come back in few months after I listen some more deeply.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
You have a point in that CM musicians tend to pronounce p and ph or b and bh similarly and the reason for that is that the tamil language does not have stressed / unstressed consonants. Your mother tongue gives you an accent that is impossible to completely get rid of when speaking another language.
Try to listen more to the music of singers like M S Subbulakshmi (like her bhaja gOvindam) or her shloka singing in Balaji Pancharatna mala or the kritis of Annamacharya and Muthuswami Dikshitar. It will be a very good place to get exposure to Carnatic ragas. Balamuralikrishna is also excellent in pronunciation.
Oh yes, and when we speak in Tamil, we call Carnatic music as "Karnataka sangeetham" all the time.
Try to listen more to the music of singers like M S Subbulakshmi (like her bhaja gOvindam) or her shloka singing in Balaji Pancharatna mala or the kritis of Annamacharya and Muthuswami Dikshitar. It will be a very good place to get exposure to Carnatic ragas. Balamuralikrishna is also excellent in pronunciation.
Oh yes, and when we speak in Tamil, we call Carnatic music as "Karnataka sangeetham" all the time.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Thank you for the inputs. I will listen to solely Carnatic music for few months to get used to it. I will be listening to M.S. Subbulakshmi, Balamuralikrishna, K.V. Narayanaswamy etc. I also found some music of T.M. Krishna and Sanjay Subramanyam among the young ones that I liked. Then I will try to move on to instrumentals Veena, Violin etc Once again thanks for the input, I will come back after few months of listening for further advice
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Yajmir,
Meanwhile, pl post a link to any HM pieces you likr, and tell us what's special about them.
Meanwhile, pl post a link to any HM pieces you likr, and tell us what's special about them.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Listen to only a few select pieces in a month (a mixture of 2-3 composers) and maybe raga alapana and swaras. I'd say 5-6 compositions in a month is more than enough - becoming a rasika of Hindustani and Carnatic music is a journey. If you want the lyrics and meaning to any songs, there are lot of websites and we can always share. If you have listened already to some songs in vocal, you may try to hear the same on veena violin or flute. But don't do more than this.Yajmir wrote: ↑28 Sep 2017, 16:42 Thank you for the inputs. I will listen to solely Carnatic music for few months to get used to it. I will be listening to M.S. Subbulakshmi, Balamuralikrishna, K.V. Narayanaswamy etc. I also found some music of T.M. Krishna and Sanjay Subramanyam among the young ones that I liked. Then I will try to move on to instrumentals Veena, Violin etc Once again thanks for the input, I will come back after few months of listening for further advice
In the future, you may also try to learn some simple talas - adi tala, rupaka tala, mishra chApu tala, khanDa chApu tala so that you can follow the song and after some months, try the 7 other talas.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Felt very happy that Sri.Sachi had given link to D.K.Pattammal's vintage classic Rangapura Vihara. I would like to know if Sri.Yajmir likes the following songs .
Manasa guru guha roopam by DKP
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... -guru-guha
maamava pattaabiraama by DKP
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... attabirama
Sri SathyaNarayanam
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... anarayanam
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Here is N.C.Vasanthakokilam's
saarasa dhala nayanaa
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... rasa-dhala
maaye thvam yaahi
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... e/02-maaye
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Sadasiva Brammendra's kruthis were all in samskrutham.
we have a very good site at:
http://www.sangeetasudha.org/othercompo ... asiva.html
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M.S.SUBBULAKSHMI'S famous song in 1941 itself! ( Savithri . MS was Naradhar in that film and Shanta Apte was the heroine)...Bruhi Mukundhethi by Sadhasiva Brammendraal
http://picosong.com/ww8A6
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Smt.MS has rendered a few other kruthis by Sadhaasiva BrammendraaL. ( the lyrics are simple and sweet)
Google for Bajare Gopaalam, Bajare Yadunatham, Maanasa Sancharare .
---
I do hope that veterans will approve the song selection .
Manasa guru guha roopam by DKP
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... -guru-guha
maamava pattaabiraama by DKP
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... attabirama
Sri SathyaNarayanam
https://sites.google.com/site/dkpattamm ... anarayanam
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is N.C.Vasanthakokilam's
saarasa dhala nayanaa
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... rasa-dhala
maaye thvam yaahi
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... e/02-maaye
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadasiva Brammendra's kruthis were all in samskrutham.
we have a very good site at:
http://www.sangeetasudha.org/othercompo ... asiva.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
M.S.SUBBULAKSHMI'S famous song in 1941 itself! ( Savithri . MS was Naradhar in that film and Shanta Apte was the heroine)...Bruhi Mukundhethi by Sadhasiva Brammendraal
http://picosong.com/ww8A6
----------------------------
Smt.MS has rendered a few other kruthis by Sadhaasiva BrammendraaL. ( the lyrics are simple and sweet)
Google for Bajare Gopaalam, Bajare Yadunatham, Maanasa Sancharare .
---
I do hope that veterans will approve the song selection .
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Hello Yajmir,
You can get some sense of Carnatic music of today (at least as it is in Chennai!) from such youtube chennels as Parivadini, Arkay, Musiri Chamber and probably many more that both stream live concerts and make them available for watching thereafter.
You can get some sense of Carnatic music of today (at least as it is in Chennai!) from such youtube chennels as Parivadini, Arkay, Musiri Chamber and probably many more that both stream live concerts and make them available for watching thereafter.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
You got me thinking on an idea on how I can slowly introduce CM to a new (and willing) listener. Maybe someday in the far future I will have someone to test some ideas on. But the key is this, slow and steady, giving ample time for info to settle into long term memory, produces the best results. After all these years, I have finally realized that becoming a rasika is all about the journey.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
RSR
Ever since I saw Yajmir's first post, I have been thinking on the same lines as you.
Scenario. A south Indian boy goes to Roorkhee and IIMB, meets a brilliant Punjabi girl who grew up in Pune, and marries her. Her father, who wears 32 yards long cloth on his head tied in a lovely turban by himself every morning, knows everything about the 5Ks as well as about Thaats and Raginis and Bandishes and Badha Khayals. Now he encounters this charming young fellow, who constantly mouths English and Hindi with a strange Madrassi accent, who has brianwashed the charming daughter that Sambhar is infinitely better than Dahl, that buffalo milk addles the brain, and God built the entire universe with the Teppakulam of Mylapore as its centre. The girl is now irreparable.
Then the young hero, I mean the guy who smears talcum powder on his forehead every morning, starts playing some strange music on his iPhone that he calls Carnatic classical. The sardarji, who thought they gave Bharat Ratna to one Subbulakshmi for her large bindi in the movie Meera, wonders what is all this fuss about.
The young man, what the hell, let's give him a name, Subbu, is pensive. His cycle rickshaw man (he used to go in Veeramani's rickshaw to his Teynampet school long ago, and considers Veeramani to be his guru, long deceased but who comes and speaks to him at night in his dreams), says to Subbu, " Yajmaa, Amir Singhji should be taught to like our music. From Valluvar to Thalaivar, everyone respects it. Now your maamanaar has to be told about it."
What should Subbu do? Simple.
He turns to rasikas.org for advice!!!!
So the ball is now in our court, saaar.
PS
I hear a question. What about Subbu's parents? Where do they figure? ANSWER. They are now settled in Edison, NJ doing IAS (Indian Ayah Service) with their first son, Kichu.
Ever since I saw Yajmir's first post, I have been thinking on the same lines as you.
Scenario. A south Indian boy goes to Roorkhee and IIMB, meets a brilliant Punjabi girl who grew up in Pune, and marries her. Her father, who wears 32 yards long cloth on his head tied in a lovely turban by himself every morning, knows everything about the 5Ks as well as about Thaats and Raginis and Bandishes and Badha Khayals. Now he encounters this charming young fellow, who constantly mouths English and Hindi with a strange Madrassi accent, who has brianwashed the charming daughter that Sambhar is infinitely better than Dahl, that buffalo milk addles the brain, and God built the entire universe with the Teppakulam of Mylapore as its centre. The girl is now irreparable.
Then the young hero, I mean the guy who smears talcum powder on his forehead every morning, starts playing some strange music on his iPhone that he calls Carnatic classical. The sardarji, who thought they gave Bharat Ratna to one Subbulakshmi for her large bindi in the movie Meera, wonders what is all this fuss about.
The young man, what the hell, let's give him a name, Subbu, is pensive. His cycle rickshaw man (he used to go in Veeramani's rickshaw to his Teynampet school long ago, and considers Veeramani to be his guru, long deceased but who comes and speaks to him at night in his dreams), says to Subbu, " Yajmaa, Amir Singhji should be taught to like our music. From Valluvar to Thalaivar, everyone respects it. Now your maamanaar has to be told about it."
What should Subbu do? Simple.
He turns to rasikas.org for advice!!!!
So the ball is now in our court, saaar.
PS
I hear a question. What about Subbu's parents? Where do they figure? ANSWER. They are now settled in Edison, NJ doing IAS (Indian Ayah Service) with their first son, Kichu.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Sachi
You truly rock . DId chetan bhagat steal any thoughts from you . I know chetan married a south indian tamilian girl?Sachidananda is like the name Rajesh it does not reveal any thing about what state you are coming from , such flowing thoughts in so few phrases without any ambiguity?
You truly rock . DId chetan bhagat steal any thoughts from you . I know chetan married a south indian tamilian girl?Sachidananda is like the name Rajesh it does not reveal any thing about what state you are coming from , such flowing thoughts in so few phrases without any ambiguity?
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Rajesh, I am a global citizen, and my system has been permanently poisoned by periodic ingestions of pure filter Kaapi and Kambhoji. That's what the doc said.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Such is the man, ida (hita) his middle name
Ananda, he brings to all, with all he knows,
Relishes--and shares with us 'tech' matters,
SangIta and sakala other vishaya-s--
Such is this person, SachidAnanda...
Ananda, he brings to all, with all he knows,
Relishes--and shares with us 'tech' matters,
SangIta and sakala other vishaya-s--
Such is this person, SachidAnanda...
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Getting such words on Navaratri from the Arasi herself... I must have done some time something good
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
My humble suggestion . My experience as a hobbyist in getting to appreciate classical music, be it carnatic or HM, is that we listen to some short songs of sweetness. Primarily, we begin by liking a few such songs. When we have built up a small library in our mind for say about hundred songs , we begin to see the similarity and become inquisitive about the ragam. From this awareness of ragam, our own raga alapana in mind is very common. We can even yearn that the artiste had used that extension. We may not know much of lyrics nor their meaning. We find some songs sounding similar to each other and learn from seniors about the subtle differences. Ragam is not merely the notes in arohanam-avarohanam. and about the parent scale. . Hence, rather than begin like a regular music class,
we develop better taste for good music by just listening to great artistes of renown ( not our judgement but of hundreds of rasikas and vidwans of the generation.. We need a bit of humility. there) . . I would rather give just a few short pieces ( 78 rpm records are ideal in that respect). .. The question was about the pronunciation by South indian vocalists. ( it was a not a general question about South Indians.. speaking Sanskrit differently). May be that the South has preserved the correct tradition more than the North, due to political factors.
we develop better taste for good music by just listening to great artistes of renown ( not our judgement but of hundreds of rasikas and vidwans of the generation.. We need a bit of humility. there) . . I would rather give just a few short pieces ( 78 rpm records are ideal in that respect). .. The question was about the pronunciation by South indian vocalists. ( it was a not a general question about South Indians.. speaking Sanskrit differently). May be that the South has preserved the correct tradition more than the North, due to political factors.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Although I have lived outside India for almost six decades, I can still tell by listening to the English spoken by a new Indian arrived here in the U.S. whether he is from Bengal or KeraLa or U.P. from his accent. This is because English spoken by any foreigner is influenced by the way he speaks his mother tongue. I am still unable to get rid of my Indian/Tamil accent; even over the phone people recognize me as an Indian.
Now coming to Samskritam, the language spoken/sung now, whether in the north or the south is not original Vedic Samskritam. In the north it has been influenced by Persian occupation and in the south by different Dravidian languages spoken there. Vedic chanting by well trained pundits both in the north and in the south are the closest to the original and even there differences in their pronunciation are somewhat noticeable.
This being the case, there is no wonder pronunciation of Samskit compositions by southerners, especially Tamil speakers sound different/odd to the northerners. Also, sounds of certain letters are elongated or shortened for the sake of rAga . compound words are split erroneously by the Tamil singers. eg. Narasimhaagacha is split by some as Narasimha gacha , dwaithamusukamaadwaithamu sukama is split as dwaithamu sukama dwaithamu sukama ! My to cents worth on the topic.
Now coming to Samskritam, the language spoken/sung now, whether in the north or the south is not original Vedic Samskritam. In the north it has been influenced by Persian occupation and in the south by different Dravidian languages spoken there. Vedic chanting by well trained pundits both in the north and in the south are the closest to the original and even there differences in their pronunciation are somewhat noticeable.
This being the case, there is no wonder pronunciation of Samskit compositions by southerners, especially Tamil speakers sound different/odd to the northerners. Also, sounds of certain letters are elongated or shortened for the sake of rAga . compound words are split erroneously by the Tamil singers. eg. Narasimhaagacha is split by some as Narasimha gacha , dwaithamusukamaadwaithamu sukama is split as dwaithamu sukama dwaithamu sukama ! My to cents worth on the topic.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
https://archive.org/details/Trs-RagaAalapana
What would my understanding be , without the help of this Master !!!!!!!!!!
What would my understanding be , without the help of this Master !!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Reason why every South Indian restaurant gets closed down on health inspections once in a while - the cook bolts. I mean - for Mylaporians and their other replica ghetto cousins - forking out enough for food is awfully difficult after tasting Arusuvai and Gnambika for throw away prices during season!
Same reason our musicians hop 26 such ghettos over a 3 month period to make good the US flight ticket!
But a Punjabi Dhaba runs like a charm - and many of them sometimes tax write offs for other well performing businesses!
Mylapore is of course the center of the world - the paradise no where else available!
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
What is this "Even" thing? You are buying into this Sanskrit is only North! That may have true long long ago! But Sanskrit has been driven south and there is more Sanskriti in all southern languages than even in Hindi! Language is not just that - that is another subversion done by our intellectuals!
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Sirs,
Samskritam, or rightly संस्कृतम्, called the language of the gods, developed wherever there was an opportunity for learning. Most often these schools were in woods and forests near river banks.
But we know how a language develops truly in the hustle bustle of life and human interactions. And that was in cities, temple squares, palaces and markets. Remember the word Purusha and Pura are connected - Indians were the first to invent cities.
Similarly the word Devanagari meant the language of gods and urbanites!
These places were in Himalayan foothills, gangetic and other river banks, but also in MANY places in central and south India.
Just read the Ramayana for the Samskrita geography.
I am writing this lounging in Sri Lanka!
Samskritam, or rightly संस्कृतम्, called the language of the gods, developed wherever there was an opportunity for learning. Most often these schools were in woods and forests near river banks.
But we know how a language develops truly in the hustle bustle of life and human interactions. And that was in cities, temple squares, palaces and markets. Remember the word Purusha and Pura are connected - Indians were the first to invent cities.
Similarly the word Devanagari meant the language of gods and urbanites!
These places were in Himalayan foothills, gangetic and other river banks, but also in MANY places in central and south India.
Just read the Ramayana for the Samskrita geography.
I am writing this lounging in Sri Lanka!
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Waiting for Srinath's tutorials avidly.
Is not the way Samskrtam is pronounced different between the north and south (with perhaps Maharashtra not with the north)? When I went to Kasi etc. and listened to the pandas recite mantras, it sounded very odd to me. They also tend to truncate the ending consonant a la Hindi. Do HM singers follow that sort of pronunciation of Samskrtam which would explain the difference?
That said, not all South Indian singers pronounce Samskrtam perfectly exceptions being MS, DKP, etc. We had even a discussion whether Samskrtam words used in Tamizh should be pronounced as in Samskrtam. Of course, there is a view that words do not matter!
As to familiarisation with CM, I doubt whether a capsule course is enough for a starter, but with someone like Yajmir it may be as he must be familiar with the swarasthanas.
Is not the way Samskrtam is pronounced different between the north and south (with perhaps Maharashtra not with the north)? When I went to Kasi etc. and listened to the pandas recite mantras, it sounded very odd to me. They also tend to truncate the ending consonant a la Hindi. Do HM singers follow that sort of pronunciation of Samskrtam which would explain the difference?
That said, not all South Indian singers pronounce Samskrtam perfectly exceptions being MS, DKP, etc. We had even a discussion whether Samskrtam words used in Tamizh should be pronounced as in Samskrtam. Of course, there is a view that words do not matter!
As to familiarisation with CM, I doubt whether a capsule course is enough for a starter, but with someone like Yajmir it may be as he must be familiar with the swarasthanas.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Why not some examples!?
1. Jasraj:
https://youtu.be/r-Oy5rvaZsY
2. Shankar Mahadevan:
https://youtu.be/S980-z1qx3g
I prefer 2.
1. Jasraj:
https://youtu.be/r-Oy5rvaZsY
2. Shankar Mahadevan:
https://youtu.be/S980-z1qx3g
I prefer 2.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
The first is the real sAma ( music). Second is rap!
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
I am bit annoyed by any discussion, that immediately brings in the problems of tamizh speakers and separation of words vs. music into any discussion about pronunciation. Lets leave people's limitations caused by their environment, training , societal vagaries aside.kvchellappa wrote: ↑30 Sep 2017, 15:09 Is not the way Samskrtam is pronounced different between the north and south ...
Lets head back to some principles said in upaniShads themselves. There is the adage "mAtra balam" - which is initially translated as mAtra : adherence to time intervals , balam: effort - which is, as I understand, the stress of the consonants. In a group recitation a learned pandita - in a discussion related to synchronization and such ( one of the reciters went by too fast) used this verse to explain the need for samyuktAksharas ( multiple consecutive consonants) to be recited tightly ( I am literally translating the word geTTi in tamizh). He held his fist tight as he said "mAtra balam". samyuktAksharas may usually come only two in succession mostly - but there is one instance where there are three: tryambakam - "t" "r" "y" before a vowel "a" is added.
you can see how it is written in devanAgari.
https://i0.wp.com/www.2indya.com/wp-con ... .jpg?ssl=1
Most people nowadays pronounce this as : trayambakam - even many learned purohits - forget common people.
But at the start of a word it does not get any mAtras. All mAtras are assigned to the vowel "a". A samyuktAkshara with additional consonant in between two vowels like 'vidya" - the consonant gets a 1/2 mAtra extra. That is the implication of the word tight!
Now of course vEdic recitation even if we consider it as pre-historical to matters musical, it is more of its continuing influence on musicians that is significant - so it is irrelevant to me if music originated from the vEdas or not.
And the vowel "R" - just recently in BGS Bengaluru concert with SObhillu, I heard Smt. Sudha Raghunathan sing it as dhara ruksAmAdulalO : it should be dhara RksAmAdulalO. Same goes for mathrubhootam vs mAtRbhUtam. This one is impossible to get correctly unless all kARvai is assigned to mA... and tR is just softly vibrated in 1 short mAtra and proceeded with. But musicians want to use the vowels for music!
Now this Srouta smArta itihAsa propounder calls it as decadence of sAma : https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 0982344781
whilst every one of our composers extol dEvi as sAma gAna lolE. And Sri krishna says he is the sAma amongst the vEdas. Go figure!
That is one reason why I argued for separate set of grammar rules for musicians in the "Doubt About Sanskrit grammar thread!"
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
shankarank,
The two versions on YT were given for observing the pronunciation, not for musicality. I also don't like rap renditions of shlokas. But then.
I checked many years ago when I heard many recite "trayambakam" instead of the version I used, "tryambakam". Turned out both versions are accepted and used.
The word trayambaka comes from traya=triad+ambu=eye. It's also easier to pronounce.
Swami Sivananda of Rishikesh was big on this mahamantra and taught it to thousands. He taught "trayambakam..."
The two versions on YT were given for observing the pronunciation, not for musicality. I also don't like rap renditions of shlokas. But then.
I checked many years ago when I heard many recite "trayambakam" instead of the version I used, "tryambakam". Turned out both versions are accepted and used.
The word trayambaka comes from traya=triad+ambu=eye. It's also easier to pronounce.
Swami Sivananda of Rishikesh was big on this mahamantra and taught it to thousands. He taught "trayambakam..."
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Sivananda, a great soul, was Tamizh and might have followed the native practice. As the word occurs in Rig Veda (Rudram or Chamakam), we must see how it is intonated there. A living language evolves, but Samskrtam has been rigid on fundamentals.
The discussion in this thread is perhaps about the way Samskrtam is pronounced in the north and the south. I am delighted to read the scholarly explanation of Shankarank, but the usage may have no real bearing on it!
The discussion in this thread is perhaps about the way Samskrtam is pronounced in the north and the south. I am delighted to read the scholarly explanation of Shankarank, but the usage may have no real bearing on it!
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
From my observations of some of the priests from the north recruited in America that chant vEdic verses in temples here , the stress on the syllables are a somewhat loose! So when there is divergence in something like that, it would have certainly affected everything else.
Yajmir should know that , as regards Dravidian accent - that is somewhat too broad. There are a lot of differences between brahmins ( due to Sanskrit heritage you could call it) and others in the way Tamizh is spoken! If Dravidian means the southern region , then yes you could call it that for the differences in Sanskrit pronunciation.
But amidst average Tamizh people ( even Brahmins) in the post movie era of 80s who have tried and listened to some musicians , almost all musicians ( of the traditional variety - except save like MSS, BMK) failed the clarity test, forget pronunciation, since intelligibility itself is an issue for them! Cine populars like KJY would be good for them. And I am basing this on the experience in my place of growing up, which is not Mylapore where music happens too often, but nevertheless is the center of the world for me . I remember my English teacher around 11th grade talking about this and he listed musicians like SR, KVN etc as not clear enough.
And I recently heard about this issue in general from a Photographer hired to cover an Arangetram just before the start of it!
Yajmir should know that , as regards Dravidian accent - that is somewhat too broad. There are a lot of differences between brahmins ( due to Sanskrit heritage you could call it) and others in the way Tamizh is spoken! If Dravidian means the southern region , then yes you could call it that for the differences in Sanskrit pronunciation.
But amidst average Tamizh people ( even Brahmins) in the post movie era of 80s who have tried and listened to some musicians , almost all musicians ( of the traditional variety - except save like MSS, BMK) failed the clarity test, forget pronunciation, since intelligibility itself is an issue for them! Cine populars like KJY would be good for them. And I am basing this on the experience in my place of growing up, which is not Mylapore where music happens too often, but nevertheless is the center of the world for me . I remember my English teacher around 11th grade talking about this and he listed musicians like SR, KVN etc as not clear enough.
And I recently heard about this issue in general from a Photographer hired to cover an Arangetram just before the start of it!
Last edited by shankarank on 01 Oct 2017, 20:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Getting into differences between various states on the vEdic pronunciation, typically the connected regions of Andhra, Karnataka and TN the intonations are much closer. Kerala when I visited a Shiva temple in Thrissur, the intonation is completely different!
And generally coming to singers the Jaw bones of the real keralites, not the migrant bhattars, some people theorize are different and their Akara itself sounds different. This is likely the hill country separation. You could notice that a bit in musicians like Srivalson Menon.
And generally coming to singers the Jaw bones of the real keralites, not the migrant bhattars, some people theorize are different and their Akara itself sounds different. This is likely the hill country separation. You could notice that a bit in musicians like Srivalson Menon.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Now, where is Waldo? I mean, Yajmir who started all this
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
So you want to ride two Tigers !!!I am trying to get into Carnatic Sangeet as I only listen to Hindustani Sangeet. So, I am trying to find out the difference between the two
Oh boy ! One is enough for ten lifetimes.
I pray that you are young and have many years left .
Sincerely wishing you the best
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Varsha
Rightly said. Appreciate you.
With wishes,
Thanjavooran
02 10 2017
Rightly said. Appreciate you.
With wishes,
Thanjavooran
02 10 2017
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Yajmir, people here are way too nice by providing you great examples to get you going on CM. But before you become too acquainted with CM with the help of all these posts, I want to tease out a bit more of the differences in Sanskrit diction you were perceiving. Later on you yourself rationalized that it may be due to the gamaka but you were very specific that even Aakaram sounded different.
That is quite intriguing to me. You should be able to find some Aakaram without any gamaka and see if the differences are there.
So don't adapt too fast because once you become like us we will lose that thing you are perceiving currently, See if you can provide the kind of examples Sachi asked for in the earlier posts. Show us an example, non musical if gamaka gets in the way, of Sanskrit diction by Hindustani Musician and a Carnatic Musician. That will be very useful.
In addition, you can lend your ears to listening for any differences in Sanskrit diction of Priests of South India vs North India,
Lastly, how common is it for HM singers to sing in Sanskrit proper as opposed to Sanskrit derived language like Hindi or other regional languages of north India?
That is quite intriguing to me. You should be able to find some Aakaram without any gamaka and see if the differences are there.
So don't adapt too fast because once you become like us we will lose that thing you are perceiving currently, See if you can provide the kind of examples Sachi asked for in the earlier posts. Show us an example, non musical if gamaka gets in the way, of Sanskrit diction by Hindustani Musician and a Carnatic Musician. That will be very useful.
In addition, you can lend your ears to listening for any differences in Sanskrit diction of Priests of South India vs North India,
Lastly, how common is it for HM singers to sing in Sanskrit proper as opposed to Sanskrit derived language like Hindi or other regional languages of north India?
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Re: Why Karnataka singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
“Aakar” (आकर) has no meaning in a musical context (i.e., it may it may mean "having come"), it is nonsense. Perhaps it is meant the Hindi version of “Akaaram” (अकारम् ) which is “Akaar” ( अकार ).
It is wrong to presume that Hindi speakers do better with Samskrt than “south” Indians, merely because of the familiarity with the Devanagari script. Many Samskrt vowel and consonant sounds are unconsciously “Urduized” or Arabicised by north Indian speakers. Just to give one out of thousands of examples:
अहंकार – should be pronounced “A-HA-M-KAA-RA” per the chandas. Most north Indians would say “E-HE-N-KAA-R” which is completely wrong.
Probably the most authentic Samskrt is spoken or the Chandas chanted is in parts of Karnataka and Maharashtra. Now that may sound “Dravidian” to somebody from the North but sorry, that’s the purest Samskrt.
An egregious example of wrong Samskrt usage sometimes seen in North Indian government offices is the way they split India’s national slogan “Satyameva Jayate” ( सत्यमेव जयते ). Even a kindergarten Samskrt student (such as myself!) will split it correctly as “Satyam Eva Jayate” ( सत्यम् एव जयते ) but watch out when you travel north, you will see the occasional signboard proudly proclaiming “Satya Meva Jayate”( सत्य मेव जयते ), which has no meaning in Samskrt (or for that matter, Hindi ! ).
Last edited by uday_shankar on 04 Oct 2017, 11:00, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Here's the notorious "Dilli Pulis" proclaiming a meaningless slogan:
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Indeed, Uday. Was filled with rage upon reading the opening post. It's shocking that the OP was indulged for this long.
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Re: Why Carnatic singers sing Sanskrit Kritis with phonology of Dravidian languages?
Uday,
अहङ्कार should be pronounced like (not exactly but nearest to) ahangkaara.
This is my understanding. Note the way it is written in Samskrita. Different from Hindi अहंकार
अहङ्कार should be pronounced like (not exactly but nearest to) ahangkaara.
This is my understanding. Note the way it is written in Samskrita. Different from Hindi अहंकार