A Rebuttal to T M Krishna

[harimau]

Last evening, there was a violin concert by Kovai S Usha, an AIR artist from Pondicherry.

The occasion was the conferring of the title Violin Nada Mani on her by the Charubala Mohan Trust whose Managing Trustee is Sangeetha Kalanidhi Sri M Chandrasekharan.

There were quite a few youngsters (I would guess 6-11 years old, who would be termed kunjum kuluvaanum) who sat on the floor and several kept the talam too.

I would venture to say all of them were Brahmins.

Why couldn't non-Brahmin children and adults attend the concert? Was there anyone at the door preventing entry by them?

If the politically correct among you think that such persons would not feel welcome, the advertisement clearly said 'All are welcome'.

If TMK claims that the poorer non-Brahmins would be busy earning their livelihoods:

1) what prevented the super-rich billionaires from attending, particularly when you find them at concerts by the likes of the Tup-Tup Artist and The Proprietress of Ye Olde & Originale Abhangerie?

2) none of those in attendance was from the few Brahmin families who own businessses indicating they were all from middle-class families only who also had to earn their livelihoods.

So why does TMK blame the Brahmins for keeping Carnatic Music to themselves and excluding those of other castes?

PS. Among those who chose to exclude themselves one can find almost the entire coterie of persons who post on this website. There were about 50 persons or less for the function and the concert.

[uday_shankar]

This is not to endorse either T M Krishna or your "rebuttal" but you can't use anecdote to counter generalizations. I can toss a good coin three times and get all heads or all tails but it does not constitute a "rebuttal" to the core generalizations of probability theory.

[Sachi_R]

So why does TMK blame the Brahmins for keeping Carnatic Music to themselves and excluding those of other castes?

I think Krishna is committing the same fallacy Uday mentions. He must have encountered this discrimination throughout his life.

I have not.

And definitely, thanks to the massive, widely publicised, fearless and dedicated efforts of distinguished people like Krishna in spreading Carnatic music to everyone, from fishermen to Jogappas and commuters and neo Carnatic listeners from Kerala to Connecticut, whatever inequities we are now seeing will all go away.

Another thing - a brain wave! Why don't sabhas subsidise tickets in a reserved non-Brahmin class during Margazhi? Reservation has been the weapon of choice for removing Brahmins' atrocities, right?

[shankarank]

You cannot blame TMK. You have to get a view of some background. This is the human rights discourse of the West that, all of the boutique liberal media has latched onto. Was watching Jimmy Carter in a late night comedy show - he apart from habitat for humanity and eradicating diseases in the world , is also working to further human rights!

There is no human right that does not claim a right to anything and everything looks like!

So it is not TMK's fault. You should be rebutting something else.

TMK has already explained it paying glorious tributes to brahmins in a tamizh magazine interview ( Vikatan IIRC) - that since Dravidian movement caused other communities to fritter away - brahmins held it even tighter. He talked about Brahmins not going to learn much from vEllalars due to the vegetarianism etc. You can parse all of this however and rebut them too.

[kvchellappa]

Harimau,
Sri MC is doing great service to music by example and encouragement. You should not deride them with expressions like 'Charubala Moran Trust'!

[harimau]

Harimau,
Sri MC is doing great service to music by example and encouragement. You should not deride them with expressions like 'Charubala Moran Trust'!

I typed in 'Mohan' and it was autocorrected to 'Moran' by the computer. So there was no intention on my part to deride Sri Chandrasekharan.

Anyway, 'Moran' is an Irish surname and the computer is more Irish than Indian and so substituted Moran for Mohan. And the derogatory word, if you are looking for one, is 'moron'.

[harimau]

This is not to endorse either T M Krishna or your "rebuttal" but you can't use anecdote to counter generalizations. I can toss a good coin three times and get all heads or all tails but it does not constitute a "rebuttal" to the core generalizations of probability theory.

What anecdotal evidence?

Have you seen TMK's favorite castes showing up at any Carnatic Music concert? Except the 'Society Women' with straightened hair and in Rs 50,000 saris at Aruna Sayeeram's concert and that too at the Music Academy only?

So, do a statistical survey and prove me wrong!

[sureshvv]

Actually what bothers me is not what TMK says or believes. It is the applause that he gets from teenagers and twenty somethings when he says these things. They appear too ready to believe this excuse of discrimination for why CM is perceived as the bastion of a particular caste.

[sankark]

This is not to endorse either T M Krishna or your "rebuttal" but you can't use anecdote to counter generalizations. I can toss a good coin three times and get all heads or all tails but it does not constitute a "rebuttal" to the core generalizations of probability theory.

What anecdotal evidence?

Have you seen TMK's favorite castes showing up at any Carnatic Music concert?

Precisely thats TMK''s point that "TMK's favorite castes*" aren't showing up even though in some earlier time a subset of they were very much into CM both as vAggEyakArA and connoiseurs; and that there is not *much* encouragement from the current custodians who want to keep it to themselves. So what is your issue with that?

Whether they have to come; whether they will come; are they missing something beautiful by not coming - I don't know; TMK's favorite castes though don't seem to clamor and throng the venues. He is trying to take the water to the horse because the horse isn't that keen to come to the water. To partake or not is the horse's decision.

Anecdotally I also know of a case where a non-Brahmin kid, or his mother atleast, wanted the kid to learn CM but the teacher wasn't that keen to take the kid in. I *don't* know if it was a figment of imagination on the mother's mind or reality.

* who are they?

[kvchellappa]

This point is made again and again that people do not attend this concert or that concert as though it is a curriculum and some minimum attendance is compulsory for rasikas to pass. In this case, it was webcast and archived also. All are not Harimaus living in the Mecca of music - Mylapore, close to the halls. It takes enormous effort to attend a concert, and inconvenience. All are not up to it.
More crucially, taste cannot be dictated.
The prods, nudges, barbs, cannot win more audience; it can only put off the meagre audience.
If the art form has no support, that is it. But, as of now enough support is there and promising ones will move up.
'The Proprietress of Ye Olde & Originale Abhangerie' moved up the hard way. In 1974 in a concert in Vadpalani temple there was hardly any audience, only family members and temple goers passing that way. I have attended many concerts where audience would be thin. That is the state of affairs of the art.
Today, we see even the best of artists having poor strength of listeners for even a free concert.
There are other art forms where the support is not even sustaining the artists.
CM is well endowed.

[rajeshnat]

There are 3 issues in stake here

Issue 1- Non brahmins coming to concert
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Most of the time the concerts are free and few are ticketed.Whatever the case concerts held anywhere any one with two legs , two hands and warm body can walk in . This issue there is absolutely no point to discuss. Should be unilaterally dismissed

Issue 2- Non brahmins can learn music
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I think usually all musicians just take students as in general the teachers are willing to take students . with more and more egurukulam going on , this issue is almost gone . There can be still few musician gurus who are reputed gurus who may refuse to take , i think those could be their expectation of a certain prerequisite . With more and more egurukulam as norm and I think we all can surely learn

Issue 3 - Learnt Non Brahmins who have graduated as musicians can they be performing musicians
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think my position is the sabhas and/or rasikas may not be that open to bring in that many non brahmin musicians into performance circuit(especially if you want to be a main performer , accompanist may not get affected with bias) . Of course many may not be concert worthy but there can be subliminal bias even if they are concert worthy . This needs to get addressed and I am not sure if this bias is going away in short to mid term

Musicians like TMK and general public are mixing all of the above 3 issues in caboodle and are going all over the place without defined focus on the problem statement (which is only Issue 3) and goes on and on in repeated circles.

[Nick H]

Harimau, you may have observed the forum during your absence, or you may not. If you did, you might have known that all of this stuff has been done, if not dusted (unfortunately) to sickeningly repetitive oblivion.

[kvchellappa]

The body (pseudonym) was absent, but not the 'soul' (actual person), I think.

[shankarank]

Issue 1- Non brahmins coming to concert
-----------------------------------------------------
Whatever the case concerts held anywhere any one with two legs , two hands and warm body can walk in . This issue there is absolutely no point to discuss. Should be unilaterally dismissed

This is historical , not their willingness or otherwise. TMK has gone so far as saying.. it is our look and feel , the themes being sung.. are the cause for this. The backdrop of saying this is that many diverse communities are educated and able to speak English - why still a sample of them NOT in a CM concert. Irrespective of all of that , I cannot believe we are saying that there is so much hatred about Bramhins in Society in spite of the history. People are ill informed and many times wrongly guided by various things. If Brahmins and Brahmin culture , in whatever shape and form it is, are not considered integral part of the country - then the discourse is subverted. We can unilaterally dismiss it, but this is at our door steps. We cannot ignore it. A criticism of bad aspects in contemporary Brahmin society as viewed from any other point of view is welcome.

But if critical theories of Western knowledge systems are going to be employed - there is no discussion. It is a war! Anybody who criticizes brahmins must offer a viable Sindhu-kaveri cultural narrative - but if we are supposedly a diverse country by history there should be many.

First decolonize yourself and then we can talk!

Issue 2- Non brahmins can learn music
----------------------------------------------
I think usually all musicians just take students as in general the teachers are willing to take students . with more and more egurukulam going on , this issue is almost gone . There can be still few musician gurus who are reputed gurus who may refuse to take , i think those could be their expectation of a certain prerequisite . With more and more egurukulam as norm and I think we all can surely learn

So you are saying dissemination of methods via structured education is enough! There is so much discussion about sound production techniques, this technique and that technique. We have left no stone unturned to see if all of this can be industrialized and commoditized. Still we have not seen results.

First, if we are talking traditional art that needs to sustain across generations, and be accepted by children, the sense of sacred has to be accepted and this is not brahmanical.

As we discuss all over, even language pronunciation is not up to par and there is lot more about sandhi, there is mAtra Suddham, awareness of kriyas/chandas. And lot of this, even if this is about Sanskrit, cannot be identified with Brahmins alone. For rest of the languages that is much more less so. So even Brahmin musicians are not Brahmanical enough - if you know what I mean. So the criticism I guess is then against the modern brahmin Caste. That can happen, but from a Sindhu-KAveri cultural internal perspective.

Statements like, CM is bhakti themes, CM needs to include Secular themes, CM is devotional.. etc. should be scoffed at thrown out the door - these are anthropological view points of not even the real West - but some intellectual devious thinking that happens in the Western humanities academia - that has undermined the Western societies as well.

As regards the themes, the bhava and expression, and even compositional themes can diverge and have the foot print of diverse people's experiences in life. It depends on how many are inspired by that and how motivating and inspiring it is for them to relate to performances - if by art we mean the concert and performances.

But that work has to be done by whoever needs to do it.

Issue 3 - Learnt Non Brahmins who have graduated as musicians can they be performing musicians
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think my position is the sabhas and/or rasikas may not be that open to bring in that many non brahmin musicians into performance circuit(especially if you want to be a main performer , accompanist may not get affected with bias) . Of course many may not be concert worthy but there can be subliminal bias even if they are concert worthy . This needs to get addressed and I am not sure if this bias is going away in short to mid term

Non brahmins ( the dominant communities among them!) have been influential in power for at least 5 decades now. Why they have not asked or done anything about the decline of temple culture? Why they have not protested Marxist subversion in Universities? Why they have applauded Movie industry which thrived on heckling Brahmins?

It is not that these causes me to not consider them or anything, but any debate should first ask these questions.

Why is it that it is always the sabhas run by Brahmins that should invite such artistes? What is the big deal with what went on in sabhas anyways? he walked out of it!! if what went on in sabhas is not real music, then what else can be done? Do it. Why blame sabhas?

TMK has conveniently gone to the Dalit column and parrots annihilation of Caste. He goes to every media discussion and first apologizes to the interviewer that he is from privileged background. That is an insult to parenthood - or to the servant maid that might have reared him. Everybody is born in filth in a pool of blood! To insult motherhood as non-work by calling oneself privileged is to be condemned. And this continues into calling prominent female musicians as subjugated wives. And he is not the only one that got a privilege of learning CM. There are quite a few ordinary people that have learnt it and are artistes.

The values of a community are transmitted by the Womb first. Every Smriti written was done with the intent of protecting communities and many times Women - at the core - taking into account the behavior of Men at the the time. The modern Caste system, is an offshoot of that. It used to be that Universities were there once in ancient times. But they did carry the enormous sense of sacred.

The modern narratives did not place even culture at the top for any consideration. Culture was a show case to prove to the West that we also have something. And used in soft diplomacy as well. But now when they see certain communities progress economically ahead of others , they start their inquiry - using various subversive , destructive theories.

If brahmins benefited unduly from British Raj - not as brahmins but as clerks , lawyers and judges, and that is material to any discussion about India which was created because of the British and only after Independence, then the sacrifice of Soldiers in WWII & WWI should also be considered material to any discussion. They cannot wished away as fighting for the British cause or British empire. They won the freedom and not the Congress. Have we accepted that first?

[uday_shankar]

So, do a statistical survey and prove me wrong!

I thought I was doing you a favor by trying to induce some statistical rigor . I am not interested in this debate...it's just a storm in a teacup as far as I am concerned. There are much more worthwhile concerns to spend one's energies on - the destruction of forest cover, the pollution of rivers, the poisoning of food by pesticides, climate change, the list is endless and I still can't upgrade "Carnatic music and caste" to a comparable priority...

Now you can go back into your tea cup if you wish... I have moved on on.

[shankarank]

There are much more worthwhile concerns to spend one's energies on - the destruction of forest cover, the pollution of rivers, the poisoning of food by pesticides, climate change, the list is endless and I still can't upgrade "Carnatic music and caste" to a comparable priority...

There is Carter center, there is Ford Foundation and their NGO(s) and possibly Clinton foundation, then there is Al Gore with his foundation and a Nobel ( or Noble from Rahul tweet!) to boot. You can join one of them, may be next Magsasay awaits you!

[SrinathK]

In case anyone wanted to know why they aren't attending CM concerts -- here's the truth.

Non-brahmins and brahmin youngsters (the majority of the crop) can be found at the movie theatre, the mall, the clubs, the beach, the restaurants, the coaching classes, in the buses coming from colleges far outside the city, in offices, the gym, or on the roads, or playing the latest super hit movie songs on their phones, or listening to FM radio.

And in the past 10 days, they were probably at Kapaleeshwarar's. And when they are not doing that, they're in the US.

So I am sorry, it was not the bigoted brahmins!

Oh and by the way, you see all those people in the world preaching for equality, fairness, truth, and all that? Nope. They just want more power to their imperatives. Especially leftist liberals - they're all liberal till someone disagrees, and then it ain't so different. Everyone is principled only in the opposition, and then it's the same old story.

[uday_shankar]

There is Carter center, there is Ford Foundation and their NGO(s) and possibly Clinton foundation, then there is Al Gore with his foundation and a Nobel ( or Noble from Rahul tweet!) to boot. You can join one of them, may be next Magsasay awaits you!

Ayyo, avvalavu daana imagination . Someday you may stop this verbal diarrhea here at rasikas, get off the armchair and may stumble across real people hidden in obscurity pursuing their passions and convictions. It will be a liberating moment.

[shankarank]

Thank you. My real field work was in the early decade pursuing my passion listening to music. Now it is hard. And I do see lot of artistes pursuing their passion. And lots of others too. But the rebuttals of arm chair comments have to be done from an arm chair ( with field experience). But sometimes it seems I don't need to get out. Things come to me straight.

http://www.epw.in/engage/discussion/doe ... sic-debate

EPW - an armchair magazine - may be educational libraries subscribe to it. There with Ananya Vajpayee and her Caste analysis. This magazine's issues ( run once by sameeksha trust) used to come for my arm chair perusal in my teen years - as my Uncle used to work there. I am surprised how many places TMK goes, where I know something - like an insider - like TMK claims he is for the CM world.

The then editor of this magazine, from his arm chairs, would ring up the likes of H.Y Sharada Prasad ( Indira/Rajiv Press Secretary) when some important people show up at his office - even if the other side would not respond etc. in a wanton display of influence. That is the lutyen elite arm chairs.

Full of subversive write ups dissecting fault lines in India from that day on wards. Given its circulation, we would think that is of no consequence. But this works its ways into people's psyche like poison throughout the country via the small segment that reads such stuff.

[ganesh_mourthy]

Nobody really had shaken the NON Bs off . It is simply that they are not interested. Is there any proof that their great enthusiasm was curbed (not going by a few toss of coins alone )? If CM were full of opportunity and prosperity it would have been all different by now. No Demand no supply..and it is simply that. If TMK gets a chance to be cast and dance against some Priyanka chopras instead of singing along side of akkarais, will he be still singing in OOrcot village? CM is not a prosperous profession, it is a banal art form for many ....that they don't seem to like , and I am OK with their sentiments. We are not refusing to give something which in no way is essential or fundamental to them... they just choose to ignore and we cherish it.

[hnbhagavan]

The Carnatic music Career does not attract many even in Bramhins. There is no valid reason for other Communities to get into it.The path to success is full of difficulties and depends on many factors.True a handful from other Communities also get into it once they get passionate about the art.No body has prevented any one in pursuing this art.It is also dependent to some extent on the environment at home whether parents and relatives likes and dislikes.

[sankark]

No body has prevented any one in pursuing this art.

If guru-sishya way of learning is key to becoming proficient in CM, not talking about becoming performing artiste which needs heavy dose of luck too and encouragment of lot of sabhas, then how many of the current custodians are willing to do is key.

I am not talking about listening alone and just enjoying it; that should have no impediments beyond the usual bafflement on 'what the heck are they singing''?

[martha_krishna]

Why couldn't non-Brahmin children and adults attend the concert? Was there anyone at the door preventing entry by them?

If the politically correct among you think that such persons would not feel welcome, the advertisement clearly said 'All are welcome'.

All you need to do is replace non-Brahmins with African Americans in this whole post (and Brahmins with white) to realize how similar the talking points are to the one that has been used in the US to discuss race issues. Lack of self awareness is just disheartening and I am glad some of us in the younger generation are able to sense in some of the points being raised by TM Krishna

[kvchellappa]

The parallel is only in the minds. Here, it is not the race issue. It is about CM and its patronage. It has limited appeal and the 'excluded' people are not interested in it. There is no earthly reason why it should be an art form of choice and why not being in the handful of those that attend these events must be a burning issue. If it can be taken to a wider audience, do it by all means. Do not throw mud at those in the audience already. There is no sense in making this an issue at all.

[sureshvv]

All you need to do is replace non-Brahmins with African Americans in this whole post (and Brahmins with white) to realize how similar the talking points are to the one that has been used in the US to discuss race issues. Lack of self awareness is just disheartening and I am glad some of us in the younger generation are able to sense in some of the points being raised by TM Krishna

Many of the folks here are either senior citizens or close to it. Please explain the perspective of the younger generation about Carnatic Music and how the environment may be improved.

[Sachi_R]

Today I attended TMK's concert in Vani Kala Kendra. HK Venkatram, Arun Prakash and Guru Prasanna gave fine accompaniment. The concert highlights were Gaula-Thyagaraja Palayamsu Maam, a Misra Kapi Perumal Murugan song and Sagara shayana vibho. There was also Gopanandana and Amor Janmabhoomi. Tani was played in the middle of Shankarabharanam niraval (Vedashastra - Enduku Peddavale) and in fact picked up the flagging momentum.

TMK's latest book was on sale and he autographed it for the buyers. Blurb and cover:

In Reshaping Art, T. M. Krishna examines what art is and how we can harness its power to make ourselves and our communities open and sensitive. Well known for his attempts to break Karnatik music out of its high-caste confines, the author takes us through a journey of understanding what art means to different groups of people and the ways in which we all create and enjoy it. He then asks important questions about how art is made, performed and disseminated, and addresses crucial issues of caste, class and gender within society while exploring the contours of democracy, culture and learning.

https://www.amazon.in/RESHAPING-ART-T-M ... 9386021978

[harimau]

Why couldn't non-Brahmin children and adults attend the concert? Was there anyone at the door preventing entry by them?

If the politically correct among you think that such persons would not feel welcome, the advertisement clearly said 'All are welcome'.

All you need to do is replace non-Brahmins with African Americans in this whole post (and Brahmins with white) to realize how similar the talking points are to the one that has been used in the US to discuss race issues. Lack of self awareness is just disheartening and I am glad some of us in the younger generation are able to sense in some of the points being raised by TM Krishna

Why don't you replace 'non-Brahmins' with 'Eskimoes' in T M Krishna's discourses and claim discrimination against Eskimoes in the Carnatic Music world by Brahmins?

Aaaaargh!

African-Americans were barred entry into Whites-only establishments by Jim Crow laws, gun-wielding White supremacists, and lynchings of "uppity niggers".

Have we Brahmins historically done anything similar to prevent non-Brahmins from learning Carnatic Music? In fact, I personally know that when the great-granddaughter of a Dravidian party chief wanted to learn vocal Carnatic Music, Sri Lalgudi Jayaraman said that is our dharma to teach whoever wants to learn and assigned the student to his daughter. That the student's entire motivation was to get into singing for films is a different story.

Can you explain why there are so many non-Brahmin girls -- more than Brahmin girls and boys, I dare say -- learning Bharatha Natyam which, if you listen to certain persons, was Brahminised away from Sadhir by Rukmini Arundale?

[Sachi_R]

Harimau,
This Brahmin bashing is simply banal.
In my entire life, I have seen Brahminism in terms of dress code, diet, and rituals. Yes, Brahmins didn't want other castes to enter certain portions of their homes. That continues even today.

BUT I have NOT seen any barriers to entry for non-Brahmins in arts.

I can only conjecture TMK has experienced all this very differently from me.

But the uptake of his output shows people are ready to feel guilty even before they observe any basics of what a Brahmin is prescribed to do

[kvchellappa]

TMK saw nothing but his own bright future in this bashing. He is doing splendid. Our obsession with him is proof. His music is 'sagging'. Sri RSachi, I am quoting you!

[ramamatya]

Can you explain why there are so many non-Brahmin girls -- more than Brahmin girls and boys, I dare say -- learning Bharatha Natyam which, if you listen to certain persons, was Brahminised away from Sadhir by Rukmini Arundale?

One, they have come of age, so the new interest in dance. Two, they want to show their little girls have come of age too.

[sureshvv]

Folks... Whether you like it or not, agree with it or not - there is a perception that CM excludes. Let us do everything in our power to remove this perception rather than denying and decrying people who express this view.

[shankarank]

Source of this perception needs examined. Who are raising these issues? Government was involved in providing many scholarships to students. Employment in AIR to artistes. So nobody in the public domain cared or noticed that this is exclusive for this many years? So all of this was lip money to fulfill some aura of servicing tradition?

Nobody cared about quality of music colleges?

What about the study of tamizh language - which is the language of the excluded people? The tamizh chair is being setting up @ Harvard and the person arguing for it in a conference held in Chennai is giving up on TN universities! He simply said when we have problem appointing vice Chancellors , how can we setup a Chair that draws any respect.

Isn't that the great achievement of the TN Political movement? They cannot even study their own language and convince the world of it's greatness?They cannot inspire their own diaspora to invest Dollars in their own Universities??

If there is problem studying their own language, why would there not be a problem studying "THEIR OWN" music. Freaking this is not even Brahmin's music. Do they even know that now?

OK lets talk about some affirmative action. 4 of us were at the concert of Thiru B . Balasubramaniam @ Cleveland sometime in early 2000s. Two youngsters, me and then an elderly rasika of Mylapore settled in U.S - a person who learnt music from Sri Kittamani , an MVI disciple. He sat and heard the whole concert. His comment was the person was singing with the same voice, no modulation. Rest of us were also not particularly impressed with his singing, being afternoon, I dozed off!

So should I change my tastes and sense of aesthetics to enjoy such an artiste?

And what is he doing teaching in Wesleyan?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKMJx8g27Ig

Surely he should be fine for many tamizhians to learn music from! No prejudices? Why is he not in a major TN University?

How can we include him?

[Sachi_R]

Suresh,
Affirmative action is best led by people with influence and power. In my opinion in CM they are:
1. Top artistes like TMK. They should perform and teach in spaces with predominantly non-Brahmin environments.
2. Sabhas - they should have a reservation policy for non Brahmins on stage and in the audience.
3. CM should be taught in all schools. Like the Sa Pa program of L Subramaniam etc.
4. We should initiate a scholarship for non Brahmin and non privileged students of CM. Everyone including you and me can donate.
5. We should play CM in public spaces. I hear this to my delight in Blr Airport and metros.

Please comment and add your points.

[sureshvv]

Isn't that the great achievement of the TN Political movement?

The TN Political movement has had many failures. It has had many successes also (for instance, when you compare it to many other states, Tamilnadu comes out ahead in many social parameters). Unfortunately it gets scapegoated for many real and perceived problems.

Rather than argue about how the perception came about, let us do what is in our might to correct it.

[rajeshnat]

Affirmative action is best led by people with influence and power. In my opinion in CM they are:
1. Top artistes like TMK. They should perform and teach in spaces with predominantly non-Brahmin environments.
4. We should initiate a scholarship for non Brahmin and non privileged students of CM. Everyone including you and me can donate.

#1 and #4 is fine

3. CM should be taught in all schools. Like the Sa Pa program of L Subramaniam etc.
5. We should play CM in public spaces. I hear this to my delight in Blr Airport and metros.

There are elements of pragmatism here especially #3, as in school i struggled to even find interest in few subjects like Tamil and Physics . I have that core education burden and those were the days where there was only Akashvani and Doordarashan Channel 1. But to hear music if at all then i would have lost interest in all subjects . Any way I will give it you kind of 50 50

#5 it is little tricky. When Jayalalitha was ruling about 6 years back she put in all parks speakers,in early morning walk it was disturbing big time . It is becoming more and more intrusion as silence is not practiced . Of course putting very light instrumental in airports is fine but slowly some body in the name of diversity should also not put very very light cheap songs . I have seen with low volume jarring noise Whistle Podu in chennai airport few years back during IPL time . As such #5 is way too tricky but I prefer not to have that , but still some what give it to you - 25 75

2. Sabhas - they should have a reservation policy for non Brahmins on stage and in the audience.

This point above I did not expect from Sachi who I think is most level headed . Reservation has kind of killed so many aspirations and the effect of Brain drain is so heavy in academics and nation growth. You want the same even from music which is more a leisure . MS amma, Madurai Somu and TNR are prime examples who did not need reservation. I guess everyone makes a mistake here and there in our forum but sachi you kind of big time goofed up here by asking for reservation policy on stage. Reservation in audience is simply not needed when all are welcome, noone is stopping anyone.

[Sachi_R]

Rajesh,
I am DEAD AGAINST reservation.
Also atrocity narratives. Also this Brahmin bashing.
I was only baiting you guys!

[sureshvv]

One thing reservations do is help remove the perception of discrimination. So it is not such a bad thing when used for a limited period. It need not be mandated by law.

[semmu86]

1. Top artistes like TMK. They should perform and teach in spaces with predominantly non-Brahmin environments.

No one is stopping anyone. An artiste is at complete liberty and reserves the right to perform anywhere he or she wants to.

2. Sabhas - they should have a reservation policy for non Brahmins on stage and in the audience.

Absolute Nonsense. We already have enough reservations to kill the aspirations of lot of people. And no one is stopping anyone either from attending concerts. An " All are welcome" sign is advertised usually, which is indicative enough of an welcome, cutting across any barriers.

4. We should initiate a scholarship for non Brahmin and non privileged students of CM. Everyone including you and me can donate.

There are already enough scholarships for them. How about supporting the innumerable poor Brahmin kids whose dreams are killed by this reservations and thereby giving the opportunities to a lot of less-deserving ones?

5. We should play CM in public spaces.

For the "Sick"ulars here and elsewhere, this is noise pollution. Only the early morning 5'0 clock prayers that wakes us up are allowed and no other nonsense can be tolerated.

It's sad that once a great place, this forum has degenerated such.

[Nick H]

For the "Sick"ulars here and elsewhere, this is noise pollution.

Certainly it is noise pollution. Any unwanted, unrequired, mostly-unenjoyed sounds imposed on us in this way is pollution.

Didn't the same JJ who has been mentioned also, some years previously, ban horn speakers making loud noise? I only vaguely remember: somebody can correct or fill in the details. And if such a ruling gets enforced against the bearers of one label, but not against those of another, then indeed this is the wrong kind of -ism. Sick, Sec, Pseudo or whatever. None of those things are actually secularism, but any true definition does not suit the political manipulators on any side.

And... carnatic music in public places as a way of popularising it? Sure, if have to listen to music, eg in a restaurant, I would choose carnatic (Or The Grateful Dead!) but even then it tends to be the filmified muzak form of CM. I really don't think it will win anybody over. Shoving things down people's throats (or ears) tends to put people off, rather than the opposite.

And 2... As for TMK. I recall somebody writing here, many years ago, that he has no time for this forum. Sadly, this forum has far too much time for TMK!

[kvchellappa]

What is so harmful if there is a perception of exclusivity? It is only the tom-toming in the name of redressing that is giving it an accent that was absent before. So long as we care for the music and are prepared to share it unreservedly, the music must take over. We need not walk the extra mile to remove perceptions. We will be entering slush and emerge smeared with slush. Any movement that is anchored on animosity cannot produce anything lasting. There are many other forms of music that cater to the taste of people and it is parochial to use CM as a medium of achieving some social cleansing just because one has invested in it. The sooner we move away from the focus of caste the better it will be.

[kvchellappa]

For the "Sick"ulars here and elsewhere, this is noise pollution.

And 2... As for TMK. I recall somebody writing here, many years ago, that he has no time for this forum. Sadly, this forum has far too much time for TMK!

TMK said that he does not want to read anonymous opinions. You can write to him and he will write back.

[sureshvv]

What is so harmful if there is a perception of exclusivity?

It breeds hatred. I don't want anyone hating CM for any reason.

So long as we care for the music and are prepared to share it unreservedly, the music must take over. We need not walk the extra mile to remove perceptions.

Why not walk the extra mile because it was our collective inaction that allowed this perception to form in the first place?

There are many other forms of music that cater to the taste of people and it is parochial to use CM as a medium of achieving some social cleansing just because one has invested in it.

Good point. Social cleansing is the ultimate goal. CM can play its part.

The sooner we move away from the focus of caste the better it will be.

Agree 100%

[sureshvv]

For the "Sick"ulars here and elsewhere, this is noise pollution. Only the early morning 5'0 clock prayers that wakes us up are allowed and no other nonsense can be tolerated.

Why don't you try to make your point without using "political" labels on people who hold a different view? And avoid bringing religious hatred into the argument?

It's sad that once a great place, this forum has degenerated such.

You are doing more than your part single handedly.

[Nick H]

What's wrong with exclusivity?

Nothing. Many areas of life are exclusive, from advanced physics to serious music. It is never going to be popular with all. Ever.

[sureshvv]

What if this exclusiveness is given caste connotations? Should I start feeling guilty?

[rshankar]

What if this exclusiveness is given caste connotations? Should I start feeling guilty?

I don’t think anyone should feel guilty - TMK is feeling enough guilt and more for all of us... I suggest we leave all the proselytizing to him....our only commitment should be to listen to/attend quality music wherever it is offered and by whomever it is created by.

[Sachi_R]

Rshankar, well said. Something I am trying to do! (not proselytising or Brahmin bashing, I mean catching some good concerts.)

I predict a bright future for V. Subashri.

[Nick H]

What if this exclusiveness is given caste connotations? Should I start feeling guilty?

Only if you are the one doing the connotatificationising

[Nick H]

For the "Sick"ulars here and elsewhere, this is noise pollution.

And 2... As for TMK. I recall somebody writing here, many years ago, that he has no time for this forum. Sadly, this forum has far too much time for TMK!

TMK said that he does not want to read anonymous opinions. You can write to him and he will write back.

Oh yes, I forgot. It overlooks that many members are not actually anonymous and that quite a lot of the internet works that way anyway.

But, if I was TMK, I'd avoid this forum because it frequently goes way beyond reasoned criticism and sometimes becomes a cesspit of personal poison. Nobody needs that.

[harimau]

One thing reservations do is help remove the perception of discrimination. So it is not such a bad thing when used for a limited period. It need not be mandated by law.

Correcting perceptions of exclusion/discrimination may require educating those with such perceptions in history.

Ignoring history leads to woolly-headed thinking.

For example, the Nagas of Northeast India were a headhunting tribe. You can see photos taken around 1880s where Naga huts were decorated with the heads of enemies they had vanquished.

So, whose fault is that people shied away from associating with the Nagas who fiercely protected their own way of life by preventing any interaction with civilized society, till they were overcome by force of arms by the British?

Today, we have reservations for Nagas in schools, colleges, government jobs, etc.

Oh, the Brahmins practiced exclusivism and have to pay for it and the Nagas don't have to?

What kind of logic is that?

Dont tell me; I know the answer: Nehruvian Logic!

And you want something similar to reservations in Carnatic Music for the non-Brahmin community in South India!

Because they have chosen to exclude themselves?

Phooey to that!