how to differentiate between navroz and kurinji ?

[ajaysimha]

how to differentiate between navroz and kurinji ?
hi rasikas,

while it comes to navroz ragam,
i'm able construct this ragam with help of these songs:
ponnin oli from kamba ramayanam and
hastivadanaya

same is the case with kurinji,
seetha kalyanam and
aliveni enthu

but when i hear omana thingal kidavo,
i'm not able make the difference/ identify whether its kurinji or navroz
most of the times it feels like kurinji though it is in navroz

same is also the case with ramachandraya (or) shrInivAsAya vEda vidita mangalams

thanks,
Ajay Simha

[SrinathK]

Even I have not been able to tell the difference, although I identified navarOz as a lower p to middle P version of shankarAbharanam (as chittaranjani is a lower N2 to upper N2 version of kharaharapriya), while kurinji goes from lower D2 to middle D2, but some people do a jharu down to the lower P sometimes, although technically that phrase belongs to navarOz. I guess that's the only thing between them.

Acharyanet has a small excerpt of navarOz : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z7IwKZtouc that confirms what I heard.

http://saidvk.blogspot.com/2013/06/sele ... avroj.html
https://sujamusic.wordpress.com/kurinji/

Here's a superb rendition of hastivadanAya namOstubhyam in navaroz by Brinda-Mukta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kxF_AqXEao

If it were up to me, I would not call these as full fledged rAgAs, but raAginis or mini rAgAs.

[sureshvv]

If it were up to me, I would not call these as full fledged rAgAs, but raAginis or mini rAgAs.

Interesting idea. So would chittaranjani, nadanamakriya etc. also be considered rAginis?

[Sachi_R]

Great differentiation, Srinath.
For me Navroz is a majestic subset of Shankarabharana and basically harvests repeatedly the phrase Sa Ni Dha Pa lower octave. Hastivadanaya link is a great one. Interestingly the middle Pa is touched almost only once in the guruguha.. mudrike spot.

Kurinji (https://youtu.be/Qpl8e4uLE5w) seems to hover around the lower Ni most of the phrases. Like a bee buzzing around a fragrant Kurinji flower.

Raginis! Good idea, makes us more like brethren north of Vindyas!

There used to be a Lux soap advertisement in my childhood...

"RaagiNiya saundaryada guTTu..."

The secret of Ragini's beauty... Is Lux!

[SrinathK]

Yes. All of them would mini ragas according to me. They have a distinct identity, and a good musician can elaborate them for a long while, but still.

[RSR]

I am under the impression that the following songs are in navroj.
1) dheena karunaakarane by MKT
2) engum nirai naadhabrammam -by MSS in Sakunthalai
3) krishna mukunda muraare
-----------------------------------------------------
Wrong?
---------------
As for kurinji, there is a song rendered by Smt.,MS ( Sadasiva Brammendra)
Bruhi mukundetihi?
wrong?
=======================================

[Sachi_R]

Bruhi mukundeti I think is in Senjurutti

[RSR]

Bruhi mukundeti I think is in Senjurutti

I am referring to MS rendering of the song in the film Savithri (1941) .
https://youtu.be/ukYL6lKsaAI
It certainly is kurinji.
--------------------------------------------------------
https://www.karnatik.com/c1364.shtml
-----------------------------------------
You will love the following page of Sadasiva Brammendrar songs.
http://www.sangeetasudha.org/othercompo ... asiva.html
*********************************************************************************
These from https://karnatik.com/c1364.shtml
29 dhIra shankarAbharaNam janya
Aa: P D2 N3 S R2 G3 M1 P
Av: M1 G1 R3 S N2 D2 P
navroj
==============================
broohi mukundhEthi
raagam: kurinji

29 shankaraabharaNam janya
Aa: S N3 S R2 G3 M1 P D2
Av: D2 P M1 G3 R2 S N3 S

taaLam: aadi
Composer: Sadaashiva BruhmEndrar

[Sachi_R]

Well... Ok!

[ajaysimha]

well explained, @SrinathK and @Sachi_R

my obsrvation w.r.t gamakas is like
navarOz takes more jaru gamakas and flat notes, making it a kind of drupadh-way and
kurinji takes more ravai gamakas and kampitha swaras, making it a kind of karnatik-way

[SrinathK]

hastivadanAya literally reminds me of an elephant's trumpet. The way that G3 is sung in madhyama shruti ...

[ajaysimha]

hastivadanAya literally reminds me of an elephant's trumpet.

very nice observation, which is typical of dikshithar's style where justice is made to the word hasti-vadanaya (elephant headed) by signifying elephant's trumpet.

[SrinathK]

Bhadrachala Ramadas has composed a mangaLam (rAmachandrAya janaka) which BMK sang in navarOj. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i4sO3-7reA

BMK took inspiration from that to compose his own mangaLam on Lord Srinivasa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu6IJwAN_Ac

[Lakshman]

Most people take it for granted that the song brUhi mukundEti is by Sadashiva Brahmendra. I found an additional stanza for this song that indicates it is a composition of Narayana Tirha. Here are the complete lyrics:

brUhi mukundEti hE rasanE (prakSipta gItam). rAgA: kalyANi. Adi tALA. Narayana Tirtha.

P: brUhi mukundEti hE rasanE pAhi mukundEti
C1: akrUra priya cakra dharEti hamsa niranjana kamsa harEti
2: rAdhA ramaNa harE rAmEti rAjIvAkSa ghana shyAmEti
3: kEshava mAdhava gOvindEti krSNAnanda sadAnandEti
4: acyuta krSNa harE rAmEti hari nArAyaNa tIrtha parEti

[Rajhearts]

Kurunji ragam good example is "Seethakalyaname"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdVqEcdxSDM

Navroj exmaple is "Jo acchutandanada"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf9_ZvItJuQ