Ok, here goes my rant of the week. I strongly believe that carnatic music is like a penance and one needs to have extreme discipline to be successful in this field. My strong belief in this is due to the fact that carnatic music is bhakti oriented. Moreover, these musicians are looked upon by youngsters as role models and these kids strive hard trying to emulate their gurus. Most of these kids end up imitating the mannerisms of their gurus. So it is extremely important for the senior musicians to leave a positive impression on these kids.
However, it is shocking to know that some of the leading musicians do not realize this and behave in such a fashion that is detrimental to themselves, the disciples and the music itself. The behavior I am referring to is consuming alcohol before the concerts and performing in an inebriated state. One glaring example is of the famous artist who was so drunk during a concert that he forgot to bring his instrument to the stage and ended up asking his mridangist 'didn't you bring the instrument with you?'. This happened in an overseas concert in the US and the concert was delayed by a few hours. This not only spoils his own image but also creates a negative image about carnatic music itself in the minds of selective westerners who seem to have a high regard for CM. I am sure there are several other cases like this. This seems to happen more in overseas concerts than the ones in India. I am surprised that such musicians are held in high regards despite their onstage behavior. I wouldn't want my kid or anyone else I know for that matter to learn from such musicians.
In this forum, there are several rasikas who hold musicians in high regards to the extent that they see lord Rama and lord Krishna dancing to the musician's tunes. Would they still like his music if the musician himself comes dancing to the stage?
How important is discipline for aspiring musicians?
Carnatic musicians performing in an inebriated state
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Sam Swaminathan
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giridharan
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This is quite an intimidating stuff from the Musicians who go for this shamless act.
I have heard one famed Musician-Singer asking for a foreign liquor to be bought by the organiser before he ends the concert. He used to remind the organiser in between the concerts, means,he is not laying emphasis and concentrating on the concert.
Another Musician, asking the organisers to get a the best quality Mangoes before the concert. He will demand this otherwise he would threaten the organisers toabandon the concert. what a pity!!!
Another famed violinist was once offered Idlis at the end of the concert. May be the Idlis were not hot. so he called the organiser and told "better you give these to the dogs".The organiser from that year onwards stopped calling this famed violinist.
This is a sorry state when we talk about bhakthi in Music
-giri
I have heard one famed Musician-Singer asking for a foreign liquor to be bought by the organiser before he ends the concert. He used to remind the organiser in between the concerts, means,he is not laying emphasis and concentrating on the concert.
Another Musician, asking the organisers to get a the best quality Mangoes before the concert. He will demand this otherwise he would threaten the organisers toabandon the concert. what a pity!!!
Another famed violinist was once offered Idlis at the end of the concert. May be the Idlis were not hot. so he called the organiser and told "better you give these to the dogs".The organiser from that year onwards stopped calling this famed violinist.
This is a sorry state when we talk about bhakthi in Music
-giri
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cmlover
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arasi
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I totally agree. Music appreciation is our business here. Our personal lives are ours (how many of us reveal anything about ourselves on the forum?). We better behave like good rasikAs and not get into discussions about artistes except about their music. Of course, we expect professional and gentlemanly (lady like) behavior from them while they occupy the concert stage...
My reference to mangoes was to suggest the pointlessness of the discussion.
My reference to mangoes was to suggest the pointlessness of the discussion.
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vasanthakokilam
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Yes, let us stick to discussing this in general terms.
Here is another angle.
I think the CM audience over the years has been quite a tolerant bunch on such things as long as the musicians produce great and divine music. Given the traditional and conservative makeup of the majority of the audience they of course would prefer someone with an impeccable record. It is not that big a deal for a liberal crowd to be tolerant since that goes with their beliefs but for a conservative society to distinguish between music and the man/woman is quite a mature attitude. In a society where there is no distinction between social drinking and getting drunk ( meaning any drinking of alcohol is frowned upon and considered a character flaw ), they give a pass as long as the music is good. Many people might label that as hypocrisy. That may be so but that is also a way of dealing with the shades of grey that reality clothes itself in.
Here is another angle.
I think the CM audience over the years has been quite a tolerant bunch on such things as long as the musicians produce great and divine music. Given the traditional and conservative makeup of the majority of the audience they of course would prefer someone with an impeccable record. It is not that big a deal for a liberal crowd to be tolerant since that goes with their beliefs but for a conservative society to distinguish between music and the man/woman is quite a mature attitude. In a society where there is no distinction between social drinking and getting drunk ( meaning any drinking of alcohol is frowned upon and considered a character flaw ), they give a pass as long as the music is good. Many people might label that as hypocrisy. That may be so but that is also a way of dealing with the shades of grey that reality clothes itself in.
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rajumds
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We have to differentiate between an artist asking for a few things or expecting good food after a concert and performing in an inebriated state.
An artist has a right to demand what he wants as long as he does so before entering into the contract. As for food it is the duty of the organisers to ensure quality food id provided.
Performing under alcohol , personally I don't agree but views differ
An artist has a right to demand what he wants as long as he does so before entering into the contract. As for food it is the duty of the organisers to ensure quality food id provided.
Performing under alcohol , personally I don't agree but views differ
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Nick H
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This is not the first time we have discussed this topic, possibly not even the second or third.
The only time I was aware of an artists drunkenness was because I was involved backstage too. Because it was an event including children, I was disgusted by his behaviour --- but I doubt the audience, ultimately, registered the fact at all.
Alcohol is one drug. Whilst I should be surprised to see an artist smoking on stage, the consumption of paan and gutka, is accepted without a thought as being a respectable part of the culture --- so the role model here is to show the youngsters that it is ok to consume these carcinogenic substances. So, as in society in general, certain drugs are approved, others are not, and the actual danger or risk to health has little to do with the decision.
I also think there are a lot of people, in this society which, as vasanthakokilam says, considers any drinking of alcohol a character flaw, who just drink "fruit juice". I have watched a goup of returning (senior) artists from the UK enjoying considerable quantities of their "it's only fruit juice". I declined to share their wine; I don't like getting drunk, on wine or anything else, on an airplane (and seldom anywhere else).
I am not criticising. Thirty-five years ago I was a long-haired hippy happy to try almost anything that came my way. Each to their own, if it does not affect others.
And hospitality should be good. If the food is bad, accept the criticism. But we do not know the rest of the story: It might have been the hundredth trivial complaint of the day, but the only one that gets remembered in the story!
The only time I was aware of an artists drunkenness was because I was involved backstage too. Because it was an event including children, I was disgusted by his behaviour --- but I doubt the audience, ultimately, registered the fact at all.
Alcohol is one drug. Whilst I should be surprised to see an artist smoking on stage, the consumption of paan and gutka, is accepted without a thought as being a respectable part of the culture --- so the role model here is to show the youngsters that it is ok to consume these carcinogenic substances. So, as in society in general, certain drugs are approved, others are not, and the actual danger or risk to health has little to do with the decision.
I also think there are a lot of people, in this society which, as vasanthakokilam says, considers any drinking of alcohol a character flaw, who just drink "fruit juice". I have watched a goup of returning (senior) artists from the UK enjoying considerable quantities of their "it's only fruit juice". I declined to share their wine; I don't like getting drunk, on wine or anything else, on an airplane (and seldom anywhere else).
I am not criticising. Thirty-five years ago I was a long-haired hippy happy to try almost anything that came my way. Each to their own, if it does not affect others.
And hospitality should be good. If the food is bad, accept the criticism. But we do not know the rest of the story: It might have been the hundredth trivial complaint of the day, but the only one that gets remembered in the story!
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shanks
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An interesting episode that has nothing to do with inebriation was the announcement of an interval half way thru the concert, because one of the brother singers wanted a smoke break 
A few in the audience were taken aback when they came to know that the break was not a bio-break of sorts but for a cigarette break. Most just laughed it away.
A few in the audience were taken aback when they came to know that the break was not a bio-break of sorts but for a cigarette break. Most just laughed it away.
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ninjathegreat
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Why should we be bothered by the trivial quirks, when the music is still divine? Yes, it may be irritating or disgusting at times, but isn't that part of the character to the artist's music? I have often heard that certain musicians have given stellar performances inspite of their "disgusting" behavior.
In the aspect of them influencing up-and-coming artistes, I think yes, that is possible. But that's what society is for, to discourage such habits...
An analogy: Who did not like to see John McEnroe's tantrums on the court or Nadal wasting time between serves to irritate and catch his opponent off guard? Yes, everything is disgusting or irritating at times, but the end result is we enjoy the game!!
to continue, you do not see many sportspersons imitating mcEnroe or Nadal; you know what's good and what is not...
In the aspect of them influencing up-and-coming artistes, I think yes, that is possible. But that's what society is for, to discourage such habits...
An analogy: Who did not like to see John McEnroe's tantrums on the court or Nadal wasting time between serves to irritate and catch his opponent off guard? Yes, everything is disgusting or irritating at times, but the end result is we enjoy the game!!
to continue, you do not see many sportspersons imitating mcEnroe or Nadal; you know what's good and what is not...
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shadjam
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How can it be still divine when the artist himself doesn't know what is happening around him? What is your definition of divine? [ As per the thread on conscious and super conscious states, one needs be in the latter state to deliver a divine music; Being drunk doesn't get the artists to either of these states but to a third state called the unconscious]ninjathegreat wrote:Why should we be bothered by the trivial quirks, when the music is still divine?
If so why are the movies rated. Why don't they let the kids watch all the movies and wait for the society to fix them. These days even smoking is banned in movies.ninjathegreat wrote:In the aspect of them influencing up-and-coming artistes, I think yes, that is possible. But that's what society is for, to discourage such habits...
If the musicians don't change themselves, isn't the responsibility of the society to force a change? just like the movies.
Last edited by shadjam on 05 Sep 2007, 22:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick H
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It is very sad when an artist feels that they need alcohol before they can perform their art, and it has been the downfall of many, not just in carnatic music.
It is a sickness, and should be treated as such.
But the more senior the artist, the more long-standing the problem, the less likely it is that anyone is going to feel able to have a word in his ear. Friends? Disciples? Wife? ---probably not. Critic, perhaps...
It is a sickness, and should be treated as such.
But the more senior the artist, the more long-standing the problem, the less likely it is that anyone is going to feel able to have a word in his ear. Friends? Disciples? Wife? ---probably not. Critic, perhaps...
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vijay
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Shadjam, not all rasikas are into carnatic music to experience divinity. CM does have a very strong spiritual link but in my opinion at least, it is primarily a sophisticated art form that can be enjoyed even by a person who has no religious affiliations. It is not fair to expect artists or rasikas to be manifestations of divinity or serve as some kind of spiritual role models...
That said, churlish behaviour, whether as a result of alcohol or any anything else, is certainly condemnable. Further alcohol addiction does often leads to the kind of behaviour that we don't want to see on stage. Nevertheless, as long as it does not affect one's performance and decorum on stage, what is consumed before or after a concert is nobody's business but the artiste's.......
Some claim that consumption of alcohol, or worse drugs, leads to great art - I am inclined to treat such views with disdain...but it has to be acknowledged that some purported alcoholics have scaled the loftiest heights in the art...I am not likely to go about building temples to these individuals. But musically at least, I definitely consider them role models...
Giridharan, your little story about the demand for mangoes was really hilarious...Mangoes!! Why one earth would someone demand mangoes while preparing to sing a concert! My heart goes out to the organizers...I hope the artist in question confined his performances to summer!!
Chalanata I would submit that no one who feels that he/she has nothing left to learn at 25 deserves to be called a "prodigy"!
That said, churlish behaviour, whether as a result of alcohol or any anything else, is certainly condemnable. Further alcohol addiction does often leads to the kind of behaviour that we don't want to see on stage. Nevertheless, as long as it does not affect one's performance and decorum on stage, what is consumed before or after a concert is nobody's business but the artiste's.......
Some claim that consumption of alcohol, or worse drugs, leads to great art - I am inclined to treat such views with disdain...but it has to be acknowledged that some purported alcoholics have scaled the loftiest heights in the art...I am not likely to go about building temples to these individuals. But musically at least, I definitely consider them role models...
Giridharan, your little story about the demand for mangoes was really hilarious...Mangoes!! Why one earth would someone demand mangoes while preparing to sing a concert! My heart goes out to the organizers...I hope the artist in question confined his performances to summer!!
Chalanata I would submit that no one who feels that he/she has nothing left to learn at 25 deserves to be called a "prodigy"!
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shadjam
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Vijay,
I am not suggesting that all musicians present divine music. My point was there cannot be even a bit of divinity once the musician is drunk, even from those who are capable of presenting one. The music that comes out is just a lip service. I am aware that most of the rasikas attend these concerts as a pastime and for relaxation, and as nick mentioned earlier in this thread, they probably aren’t aware the artist is drunk. The ones that get affected are those who are very involved in music and get a chance to be together with the musicians after the concert. I pity the disciples of these musicians who are probably the ones forced to serve the liquor. This way they spoil the entire next generation of musicians(atleast their disciples). This is going to end up being a chain reaction.
I agree that there were (and are) musicians who have reached lofty heights despite their shortcomings. However, the truth is either their careers were cut short prematurely or they were denied from reaching loftier heights. First thing that comes out during conversations about these artists is “they could have been better if not for….â€
I am not suggesting that all musicians present divine music. My point was there cannot be even a bit of divinity once the musician is drunk, even from those who are capable of presenting one. The music that comes out is just a lip service. I am aware that most of the rasikas attend these concerts as a pastime and for relaxation, and as nick mentioned earlier in this thread, they probably aren’t aware the artist is drunk. The ones that get affected are those who are very involved in music and get a chance to be together with the musicians after the concert. I pity the disciples of these musicians who are probably the ones forced to serve the liquor. This way they spoil the entire next generation of musicians(atleast their disciples). This is going to end up being a chain reaction.
I agree that there were (and are) musicians who have reached lofty heights despite their shortcomings. However, the truth is either their careers were cut short prematurely or they were denied from reaching loftier heights. First thing that comes out during conversations about these artists is “they could have been better if not for….â€
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mridangamkid
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I'll just add my two cents in....
Nick H, I agree with pretty much all you have said, especially on the part about some drugs being excepted and some not. That is exactly right.
Some things such as Alchohol, cigarettes, or other type of "drugs" are frowned upon especially on stage, while things such as paan is ok just because its a type of "fashion" (or so I"ve heard).
I think its disgusting for a musician (let alone a vidwan), to perform any type of art form (let alone a type of art form that is so classical and so divine), in such a repulsive manner. I mean I'm not even talking about "oh look your a role model to this boy, look what example your setting", its just demeaning, for you to sing about gods, how great they are and yet you can't even stay sober, I mean call me harsh or whatever, but there's not point of singing this type of music, you might as well just go and learn rap then (yeah I went there).
However I also would like to point out that I don't take any of this from there music however. I've heard numerous of times, people saying "oh man, so and so sucks", I ask why and they're like "you may not know, but this person has a ton of personal problems", i'm like !@%<mod edited>, how can you say he sucks because of that, he's a freaking genius, sure he's had some problems, (i.e affairs, alcohol), but I mean who cares? His (or her) music is still untouchable (in a good way). So pretty much the point is, is that just because they have some problems, doesn't mean there music isn't good. I can still be a fan of there music.
Some people may call me a hypocrite however, because after seeing Dorai sir on stage making his paan/vetalpak, man that is the sweetest thing ever, and when I play mridangam on stage, I will be sure to do that without doubt. (dont' worry no tobacco, my mom will kill me if I do).. and it will only be on stage, bad or good idea?
Nick H, I agree with pretty much all you have said, especially on the part about some drugs being excepted and some not. That is exactly right.
Some things such as Alchohol, cigarettes, or other type of "drugs" are frowned upon especially on stage, while things such as paan is ok just because its a type of "fashion" (or so I"ve heard).
I think its disgusting for a musician (let alone a vidwan), to perform any type of art form (let alone a type of art form that is so classical and so divine), in such a repulsive manner. I mean I'm not even talking about "oh look your a role model to this boy, look what example your setting", its just demeaning, for you to sing about gods, how great they are and yet you can't even stay sober, I mean call me harsh or whatever, but there's not point of singing this type of music, you might as well just go and learn rap then (yeah I went there).
However I also would like to point out that I don't take any of this from there music however. I've heard numerous of times, people saying "oh man, so and so sucks", I ask why and they're like "you may not know, but this person has a ton of personal problems", i'm like !@%<mod edited>, how can you say he sucks because of that, he's a freaking genius, sure he's had some problems, (i.e affairs, alcohol), but I mean who cares? His (or her) music is still untouchable (in a good way). So pretty much the point is, is that just because they have some problems, doesn't mean there music isn't good. I can still be a fan of there music.
Some people may call me a hypocrite however, because after seeing Dorai sir on stage making his paan/vetalpak, man that is the sweetest thing ever, and when I play mridangam on stage, I will be sure to do that without doubt. (dont' worry no tobacco, my mom will kill me if I do).. and it will only be on stage, bad or good idea?
Last edited by mridangamkid on 06 Sep 2007, 06:37, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
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I am looking at it all purely from a rasikA's point of view--rasikAs who came before us and rasikAs of today had/have their own sense of values and moral codes (both these words are interchangeable). While these values were/are violated, the vidvAns were/are criticized. Yet, all along, the listeners did not give up going to the concerts of great performers whatever their weaknesses. Granted, if their performance suffered as a result of their 'moral failing' and it continued that way, then many rasikAs stopped going to their concerts. So long as the performance is not affected by the life style of the artiste, we have no authority to question this individual on the life he lives away from his professional arena. Do we say, 'I hear my boss is an alchoholic. I don't want to work for him anymore'?
There is also a certain unnecessary notion in our culture among some that drinking is 'romantic'. Typical example: films like Devadas. On the other hand, there are those who get all agitated when they 'hear' that a certain musician drinks. It does not help us rasikAs to fill our heads with notions which come in the way of our enjoyment of music.
In the end, all that matters is a professional and dignified presentation of music on the part of the performer and a tuned in audience...
There is also a certain unnecessary notion in our culture among some that drinking is 'romantic'. Typical example: films like Devadas. On the other hand, there are those who get all agitated when they 'hear' that a certain musician drinks. It does not help us rasikAs to fill our heads with notions which come in the way of our enjoyment of music.
In the end, all that matters is a professional and dignified presentation of music on the part of the performer and a tuned in audience...
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arasi
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mridangamkid,
To what Sam says, I would add this: Elvis impersonators don't an Elvis make.
Also, please note that this is not a place for even abbreviated swear words. Feel free to discuss CM and to learn from some true experts here. You would classify me in the dinosaur category when it comes to my age, but believe me, I am learning here all the time!
Good luck to you. You have a great guru there!
To what Sam says, I would add this: Elvis impersonators don't an Elvis make.
Also, please note that this is not a place for even abbreviated swear words. Feel free to discuss CM and to learn from some true experts here. You would classify me in the dinosaur category when it comes to my age, but believe me, I am learning here all the time!
Good luck to you. You have a great guru there!
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shripathi_g
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shadjam, I think Vijay was saying that all rasikas are not into music for divinity. I tend to agree with Vijay in that Carnatic music is a sophisticated art form that does not need divinity. Maybe, a little bit of intelligence to appreciate it but even that might depend on the rasika. Take away krithis and I don't see any divinity in it unless one tends to view the music itself as a form of bhakthi. People have composed pallavis like "Kathirika kondu vayendi". I don't see anything divine in that.
But I still don't approve of musicians performing in an inebriated state. It usually results from the fact they are not in a stable mental condition to produce good quality music. Such a person may produce a few brilliant phrases in a concert but I don't want cheap thrills. I'd rather that they didn't perform.
I'm curious to understand why they indulge in alcohol in the first place. Are these people under the impression that imbibing alcohol will automatically result in something out of the world? Is it due to the lack of education? Is it due to the pressure from rasikas to continually produce something different in each concert?
But I still don't approve of musicians performing in an inebriated state. It usually results from the fact they are not in a stable mental condition to produce good quality music. Such a person may produce a few brilliant phrases in a concert but I don't want cheap thrills. I'd rather that they didn't perform.
I'm curious to understand why they indulge in alcohol in the first place. Are these people under the impression that imbibing alcohol will automatically result in something out of the world? Is it due to the lack of education? Is it due to the pressure from rasikas to continually produce something different in each concert?
Last edited by shripathi_g on 06 Sep 2007, 09:37, edited 1 time in total.
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vasanthakokilam
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That is quite a complicated subject. All of what you wrote are probably components plus in many people's cases it is an addiction, a disease.I'm curious to understand why they indulge in alcohol in the first place. Are these people under the impression that imbibing alcohol will automatically result in something out of the world? Is it due to the lack of education? Is it due to the pressure from rasikas to continually produce something different in each concert?
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shripathi_g
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Does it really result in extraordinary music? Is there any way to quantify the effect of a performance in an inebriated state? If it's not going to be any different, someone needs to tell them that so that they don't operate under the illusion that alcohol automatically elevates their performance to a different level. Are they even in a position to know that they are producing good quality music?
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vijay
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Shadjam, point taken. I was only saying that if it does not affect their performance/behaviour, we should not be concerned about their personal habits. However I am with you in denouncing inebriation to the extent of displaying boorish behaviour. That is certainly a dispespect to the art, the organizers and the rasikas...that would be similar to being drunk on duty
Shritpathi I doubt if anyone in the CM scene at least takes to drinking to enhance their performance. The drinking I suspect has to do with other personal problems There is a certain association, almost romantic, with drugs/alcohol in the rock scene but there's fortunately no such fad in CM! Indeed vocalists in particular should be careful with drinking since it can damamge their vocal chords
Shritpathi I doubt if anyone in the CM scene at least takes to drinking to enhance their performance. The drinking I suspect has to do with other personal problems There is a certain association, almost romantic, with drugs/alcohol in the rock scene but there's fortunately no such fad in CM! Indeed vocalists in particular should be careful with drinking since it can damamge their vocal chords
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Nick H
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For every rare artist who makes it to the hights and acquires a drink/drunk problem along the way, there must be many who cut short their careers before even being heard of.
It is generally recognised that alcohol reduces one's ability. In many countries in the world it is considered criminal to drive a car with more than the smallest amount in ones one's blood.
Even within the rock scene Vijay speaks of, there are so many curtailed lives, so many great artists that could have been greater.
There are not many professions in which the regular smell of alcohol on the breath is not, at least, a warning sign to potential employers, customers, associates.
Mridangamkid... I am not criticizing our elder artists for their paan habit, although I have tried, in vain, to persuade my guruji of the dangers of gutka. His response is not too different to my own response used to be to the dangers of smoking!
But, before you follow that particular tradition, please take the trouble to spend some time with google and do your research on areca nut and betel leaf. If you want to take drugs, then be aware, at least!
(and if anyone is coming to Chennai from Hawaii... could they please bring me a couple of kilos of Kava Kava? You see... we all have our weaknesses
)
It is generally recognised that alcohol reduces one's ability. In many countries in the world it is considered criminal to drive a car with more than the smallest amount in ones one's blood.
Even within the rock scene Vijay speaks of, there are so many curtailed lives, so many great artists that could have been greater.
There are not many professions in which the regular smell of alcohol on the breath is not, at least, a warning sign to potential employers, customers, associates.
Mridangamkid... I am not criticizing our elder artists for their paan habit, although I have tried, in vain, to persuade my guruji of the dangers of gutka. His response is not too different to my own response used to be to the dangers of smoking!
But, before you follow that particular tradition, please take the trouble to spend some time with google and do your research on areca nut and betel leaf. If you want to take drugs, then be aware, at least!
(and if anyone is coming to Chennai from Hawaii... could they please bring me a couple of kilos of Kava Kava? You see... we all have our weaknesses
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shadjam
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Shripathi,
I happened to meet a bunch of amateur Bhangra dancers who were about to give a performance for only about 15 minutes. All of them were taking alcohol. When asked they replied that it helps to overcome stage fear and gives them stamina and without taking it they wouldn't be able to perform. I am not sure if this was the real reason behind it. I really don't know whether taking alcohol enhances one's stamina. Probably they are led to believe so.
I happened to meet a bunch of amateur Bhangra dancers who were about to give a performance for only about 15 minutes. All of them were taking alcohol. When asked they replied that it helps to overcome stage fear and gives them stamina and without taking it they wouldn't be able to perform. I am not sure if this was the real reason behind it. I really don't know whether taking alcohol enhances one's stamina. Probably they are led to believe so.
Last edited by shadjam on 06 Sep 2007, 23:59, edited 1 time in total.
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shishya
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There is a myth that taking alcohol makes one's voice smooth like the liquor contrary to what many studies have shown. I kind of agree that it does loosens up a person. But then what about dependency? What such people don't realize is that the ability to overcome their fear is innate in them and they are just depending on a proxy to unravel that strength. It's just like Dumbo the elephant being able to fly with the help of a feather... or good luck charms.
Alcohol may give temporary results but will cause more damage in the long run - the primary damage being from addiction rather than from the substance itself.
Also, what does it speak of a person's professionalism and respect for the art? It is not a matter of divinity vs otherwise, but it is a matter of how serious one is about perfecting the art.
Sometime, too much emphasis on "delivering consistent, outstanding results" is what makes performers resort to alcohol and drugs.
Alcohol may give temporary results but will cause more damage in the long run - the primary damage being from addiction rather than from the substance itself.
Also, what does it speak of a person's professionalism and respect for the art? It is not a matter of divinity vs otherwise, but it is a matter of how serious one is about perfecting the art.
Sometime, too much emphasis on "delivering consistent, outstanding results" is what makes performers resort to alcohol and drugs.
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
There are many foolish and stupid beliefs about alcohol, some of them put about by the people who make or sell the stuff.
It slows the reactions, dulls the senses and suspends good judgement.
Whilst it does all that it gives a sense of better reactions, greater ability and better judgement. This effect is perhaps the most dangerous one for drivers.
I cannot have any idea about your bhangara dancers, Shajam, but I would suggest that such folk artists may not be among the best informed or educated people.
I'm sure they would get just as much stamina from a cup of chai.
I'll have to stop... Somehow, the notion of Bhangra dancers suffering from stage fright is making me laugh
It slows the reactions, dulls the senses and suspends good judgement.
Whilst it does all that it gives a sense of better reactions, greater ability and better judgement. This effect is perhaps the most dangerous one for drivers.
I cannot have any idea about your bhangara dancers, Shajam, but I would suggest that such folk artists may not be among the best informed or educated people.
I'm sure they would get just as much stamina from a cup of chai.
I'll have to stop... Somehow, the notion of Bhangra dancers suffering from stage fright is making me laugh
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ninjathegreat
- Posts: 301
- Joined: 25 Oct 2005, 22:07
When I say music is divine, I'm not talking about the spiritual or literary part of it. What I was trying to say is that, as arasi puts it, so long as the performer and the public are satisfied, who are we, to gossip about their private lives and habits?
Nick, I do agree that alcohol can suspend good judgment and all, but as always, that's only if you drink so much that you lose judgment etc... not every one who drink are drunkards... Further, the talk that "all who take alcohol are addicts" is absurd. Yes, one CAN become an addict, but one will necessarily not, if one knows one's limits.
Talking about smoking being banned in cinemas, why is it that drinking on film is not yet banned?????? Is that not a bad influence too?
Age limits are imposed on smoking and drinking for a reason - you are mature enough to make a decision that you will smoke or you will drink. You might have been influenced as a kid, but when you grow up, and reach the "age of decision," you are mature enough to do the right thing.
Nick, a cup of kApi or chAi only makes you more nervous!!!!!!!!
Cheers
Ninja
Nick, I do agree that alcohol can suspend good judgment and all, but as always, that's only if you drink so much that you lose judgment etc... not every one who drink are drunkards... Further, the talk that "all who take alcohol are addicts" is absurd. Yes, one CAN become an addict, but one will necessarily not, if one knows one's limits.
Talking about smoking being banned in cinemas, why is it that drinking on film is not yet banned?????? Is that not a bad influence too?
Age limits are imposed on smoking and drinking for a reason - you are mature enough to make a decision that you will smoke or you will drink. You might have been influenced as a kid, but when you grow up, and reach the "age of decision," you are mature enough to do the right thing.
Nick, a cup of kApi or chAi only makes you more nervous!!!!!!!!
Cheers
Ninja
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shadjam
- Posts: 202
- Joined: 06 Apr 2007, 05:45
Ninja,
I am not talking here about one’s private life. I am only interested in knowing what happens on stage which is no more private. One can pretend to ignore the problem and go on with our own life. That’s one’s own prerogative. But denying the existence of the problem itself is like hiding a whole pumpkin in the food. Just read the comments of a 15 year old kid in this thread trying to follow his guru on stage. That’s exactly what the problem is about. Is there a need for more proof than this?
It doesn’t matter whether one is a drunkard or an addict or an occasional drinker, he violates the sanctity when he takes stage in an inebriated state and sets a wrong precedence. My take is this shouldn’t be allowed.
I think you have misinterpreted the purpose of my comments about banning smoking in cinemas. Many actors have mass following and the fans tend to blindly follow the actions of their role (rogue!!) models on the silver screen. The government saw that the best way is to ban it on screen rather than persuading the individuals to stop smoking. It is a top-down approach. Its parallel applies to music also where musicians have rasikas and disciples following. It is very important that these musicians behave appropriately.
Most of the learning is completed even before we mature. This is particularly true for carnatic music where most people start learning around the age of 5 and by the time they are 20 they are already on stage giving performances. Although one may argue that there is no end to learning, what one learns during this stage is going to decide what is going to be learnt in the future. So it is extremely important for the kids to learn good habits during this stage. Otherwise, it would become the case of trying to straighten the dog’s tail. I am not aware of any one who waited until he gets matured to start learning
I am not talking here about one’s private life. I am only interested in knowing what happens on stage which is no more private. One can pretend to ignore the problem and go on with our own life. That’s one’s own prerogative. But denying the existence of the problem itself is like hiding a whole pumpkin in the food. Just read the comments of a 15 year old kid in this thread trying to follow his guru on stage. That’s exactly what the problem is about. Is there a need for more proof than this?
It doesn’t matter whether one is a drunkard or an addict or an occasional drinker, he violates the sanctity when he takes stage in an inebriated state and sets a wrong precedence. My take is this shouldn’t be allowed.
I think you have misinterpreted the purpose of my comments about banning smoking in cinemas. Many actors have mass following and the fans tend to blindly follow the actions of their role (rogue!!) models on the silver screen. The government saw that the best way is to ban it on screen rather than persuading the individuals to stop smoking. It is a top-down approach. Its parallel applies to music also where musicians have rasikas and disciples following. It is very important that these musicians behave appropriately.
Most of the learning is completed even before we mature. This is particularly true for carnatic music where most people start learning around the age of 5 and by the time they are 20 they are already on stage giving performances. Although one may argue that there is no end to learning, what one learns during this stage is going to decide what is going to be learnt in the future. So it is extremely important for the kids to learn good habits during this stage. Otherwise, it would become the case of trying to straighten the dog’s tail. I am not aware of any one who waited until he gets matured to start learning
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vasanthakokilam
- Posts: 10958
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 00:01
BTW, how prevalent is this issue in the current day? Of course we do not want to mention names but a ball park % for number of musicians who exhibit visible signs of alcohol consumption on stage? 1% to 5%? If it is really that low, this thread may give a skewed view of the prevalence of this problem among CM musicians.
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vijay
- Posts: 2522
- Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 16:06
VK, I think the younger singers are far more professional in terms of their approach. This applies for a whole host of things starting from fairer treatment of percussionists, intolerance of sabha secretaries'/audience's quirks and so on...I guess the same attitude ensures that they are careful to maintain decorum on stage as well...Unnikrishnan mentioned in an interview today, that he does not even touch ice cream! Overall, once can't help feeling heartened by the attitude and discipline of the present generation...This is probably why hardly any incident which betrayed the performer's lack of sobriety comes to mind...the older bunch was probably far more Bohemian! Of course one is not privy to what goes on backstage....
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Nick H
- Posts: 9473
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03
I'm sorry that I am not interested enough in this subject to go and google for info, but I think that most research that was not sponsored by commercial interest will show that any amount of alcohol has, to some extent, the effects that I mentioned above. I would also say that any person who finds the need to drink regularly has a problem, and that any person who finds that they cannot perform some part of their life without alcohol has a major problem.ninjathegreat wrote:Nick, I do agree that alcohol can suspend good judgment and all, but as always, that's only if you drink so much that you lose judgment etc... not every one who drink are drunkards... Further, the talk that "all who take alcohol are addicts" is absurd. Yes, one CAN become an addict, but one will necessarily not, if one knows one's limits.
There are, of course, degrees to these things. I know one old person for whom the problem is alcohol in his life. He does not need it to play; he could play even if fast asleep! But for such a person it is a shame that this problem eclipses the last years of his life and career.
There may be the person who does not touch alcohol between performances, but feels some nervousness, or self-doubt that they find can be subdued with drink.
Then another person may find that one glass of wine on the day suits them, does not cause them any problem, and that they never progress beyond this. We can say that maybe this is a problem, but simply not a big enough one to take action.
Shadjam... it sounds as if the drinking of your Bhangra dancers was just part of the foolishness of youth! That is a 'problem' that very few escape!
I think it was asked in a previous thread on this subject: Would you drink before going to temple? If not then why would you drink before going on stage? This line of reasoning seems to be in line with Shajam's comments about sanctity or respect.
I have to admit that my small excursions to the stage are usually accompanied by a flask --- of massala chai! Once I accepted a cup of coffee before a function and found that my nerves were entirely put out; I could hardly play at all.
Perhaps vasanthakokilam's post, that this is really a very minority problem, should have been the last word, along with vijay's expression of optimism for the future
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mridangamkid
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 03 Sep 2007, 22:11
I would first like to apologize for using the certain abbreviation I used earlier, if I had known that you didn't want me to even abbreviate the words, then I definitely wouldn't have and again, I'm sorry.
As for the Vetalpak, I don't know if I made it seem like I was dead serious about this, as if I were gonna make this into a habit and start eating it every where I go, well if that what you guys think then... sorry but thats not what I intended. Quite frankly it was a joke, perhaps not a good joke, but it was a joke, it was just one of those "ha, wouldn't it be funny if I did this" type of things, but I really doubt I will do it.
.. I just felt I had to tell you this, sorry about the late response.
As for the Vetalpak, I don't know if I made it seem like I was dead serious about this, as if I were gonna make this into a habit and start eating it every where I go, well if that what you guys think then... sorry but thats not what I intended. Quite frankly it was a joke, perhaps not a good joke, but it was a joke, it was just one of those "ha, wouldn't it be funny if I did this" type of things, but I really doubt I will do it.
.. I just felt I had to tell you this, sorry about the late response.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
m-kid,
Message understood. Hope I didn't come across as a schoolmarm to you either!
Discussions can get heated up here sometimes, but the language is civil. It isn't appealing to read swear words and expressions which border on vulgarity. A little humor helps though
Message understood. Hope I didn't come across as a schoolmarm to you either!
Discussions can get heated up here sometimes, but the language is civil. It isn't appealing to read swear words and expressions which border on vulgarity. A little humor helps though
Last edited by arasi on 09 Sep 2007, 20:36, edited 1 time in total.
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mridangamkid
- Posts: 150
- Joined: 03 Sep 2007, 22:11
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gobilalitha
- Posts: 2056
- Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 07:12
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gobilalitha
- Posts: 2056
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ninjathegreat
- Posts: 301
- Joined: 25 Oct 2005, 22:07
Maybe we should add a question to this considering the secular nature of things: would you go to a temple?I think it was asked in a previous thread on this subject: Would you drink before going to temple? If not then why would you drink before going on stage?
:DI know, I know, a poor joke...
In my opinion, I do agree with comments that boorish and objectionable behavior on stage - whether drunk or not - is reprehensible; we should come up with laws/regulations to that effect. In personal life - outside of the limelight, so to speak - what an artiste or anyone does is a fringe matter, not of concern to us...
sripathi, education has nothing to do with it. I'm educated - very well, in fact!Is it due to the lack of education?
... Of course, I'm not a famous artiste either!!!!
Last edited by ninjathegreat on 12 Sep 2007, 00:29, edited 1 time in total.
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arasi
- Posts: 16877
- Joined: 22 Jun 2006, 09:30
Ninja,
Agreed. Fringe matter, you say. Infringing on their privacy too, I would add.
We all seem to agree that the persona of a performer should be nothing but highly professional on stage. That's for sure. Just as they have no business criticizing our way of lives (behavior), except in a concert hall where they have come to perform for us...
Agreed. Fringe matter, you say. Infringing on their privacy too, I would add.
We all seem to agree that the persona of a performer should be nothing but highly professional on stage. That's for sure. Just as they have no business criticizing our way of lives (behavior), except in a concert hall where they have come to perform for us...
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sureshvv
- Posts: 5542
- Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17
Of course remember that they are artists first and professionals later. And great artists have eccentricities. That is why their art is great. Like Vincent Van Gogh. If all they wanted to be was professionals, many of our carnatic artists would be in the IT line. So we should cut them some slack and not judge them as we would a mime artist for example.
Not that there is any wrong with being a mime artist
Not that there is any wrong with being a mime artist