An Unfortunate Incident At A Concert - Highly Shocking

musicispleasure · Post by **musicispleasure** » 08 Jan 2008, 22:39

It was indeed a pleasant day for all the people being New Year Eve except for this incident that took place at a concert in Brahma Gana Sabha. Its was â€œ Wind meets Stringsâ€

thanjavooran · Post by **thanjavooran** » 09 Jan 2008, 00:19

An insult to an artiste by another artiste is highly deplorable. Will any H Musician tolerate such an incident in their home ground? The main artiste [CM] shd hv taken open apology at the end of the progm.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Jan 2008, 00:48

This is very upsetting --- but I don't suppose anybody in the audience reacted?

Did this 'pandit' get his applause throughout the rest of the performance?

Or did he leave the hall believing that all was well with appreciative audience?

I'm sort-of saying that the concert would have been the place to complain --- although not saying that you should not complain here too.

Of course, I've done the same --- there have been percussion programs where the tabla player's insistence on taking over, rather than playing a turn of about the same length as the mridangist, has almost sent me to sleep with boredom. In fact, I've seen this happen several times. I didn't complain: but I didn't applaud either.

hsuvarna · Post by **hsuvarna** » 09 Jan 2008, 02:05

Even I have seen arrogance of Hari Prasad Chourasia in a jugalbandi here in san Jose 2 years back. It was jugalbandi with TN Ramanai. The organizer introduced the artists and something
(to me totally normal) happened while the organizer spoke, Chaurasia became angry and was retorting with impatience and anger at the organizer. I really don't know what these artists like Ronu, Hariprasad or any other artist think of them selves. After all they too are humans like us , experts in some field, just like you and me. is'nt it? Nick is raising the right Question. We have to react
at things like this which are wrong. On the other hand I have seen the humbleness of an artist like Ghulam Ali.

greatkrishna · Post by **greatkrishna** » 09 Jan 2008, 05:29

hsuvarna, I note your reference to the humbleness of Ghulam Ali, but from the limited Hindustani concerts which I have attended, H artistes come across as much more arrogant and egotistcal than their carnatic counterparts. In all aspects, from the way they interact with audience members after concerts, their interatctions with accompanists on stage, and also with their general stage manner. Maybe this is fundamental sylistic difference, in that musicians are treated as royalty in the Hindustani system, but I find carnatic musicians much more approachable (in general) than Hindustani musicians...I realise this might be a tad controversial..and I do reiterate the point of my limited experience with Hindustani Musicians, but I am interested in the opinions of other members on this subject.

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 09 Jan 2008, 06:14

itis high time that the nonsense of such jugalbandis are put an end .incurring huge expenses. When you invite a hm artist for a performance accepting their terms, there should be a clause that they should play at least 2 gana raagas of cm, like kambodhi, anandabhairavi. that too they should be in full mode like an elaborate alapana, big sahityam, neraval. kalpana swaram etc, otherwise, they would simply touch it in the raagmala, just like pickle for curdbath. I once again remember subbudu, for his relentless battle in this regard I quote him once again" i take a challenge ,can any hm artist play or sing anandabhairavi? eppo parthalum , yaman. behaag enru joke panni vittu 50,000 rupees cheque vaa ngi kondu parandhu vidugirargal .this was about35 years ago when flights by artists were very rare . gobilalitha

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 09 Jan 2008, 07:20

What a shame !! I could'nt even iamagine such an unfortunate incidence !An insult to the artist should be treated as a deliberate denigration of tradition .This goes to prove the general attitude our HM field brothern profess towards their south Indian counterparts.As appropriately reproduced quote( of Subbudu)by GBL, it is not as though a North Indian mucisian is not competent enough to sing ANANDHABHAIRAVI, KAMBOFHI,AND THE LIKES, alone , I throw a challenge even now .Can any HM pandit present a Sahana, Varali, Begada etc., and bring the nuances of these ragams without maligning the original flavour ?
It is not as if we want to rub shoulders with our beloved brothern of HM Music field, If reciprocity and tolerence levels are at the receiving end, one has to at least raise his /her voice in no uncertain manner.
The organisers , if they consider themselves to be having some semblence of self -respect, should apply their minds and try to find solution to this sensitive issue at least to arrest future recurrence.
Ramaraj

gobilalitha · Post by **gobilalitha** » 09 Jan 2008, 08:00

varali,they can crudely manage ,because of its likenessto their miyankitodi, but not begada,surutti,kurinji etc gobilalitha

mncmouli · Post by **mncmouli** » 09 Jan 2008, 08:16

Namaskaram to every Rasika! I wanted to visit Thyagara Aradhna Ustav scheduled on Bahula Panchami at Thiruyarur, Tanjavur. This is my life ambition. First time I am going to that end of South India. Can the respected members advise me how to reach there and what is the time and date most appropriate? I wish to start from Vijayawada, Andhra Pradesh.

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 09 Jan 2008, 09:01

Hi Balu, I indicated varali due tothe sole reason that it has a peculiar Madhyamam and Ghandharam which requires special skill to deal.with.As you rightly pointed out their(HM vidwans) crudeness will be exposed even to the naked ears of South Indian rasikas. There are other ragams too to be included into this never ending list tHEY ARE .DHARBHAR, NAYAKI, ARABHI , DEVAGHANDHARI oH i AM GETTING TIRED !!
Ramaraj

mohan · Post by **mohan** » 09 Jan 2008, 10:40

While the incident described above is an ugly one, I think we are getting a little precious about Carnatic music here now. Sure they may be no Nayaki or Begada in the North but there are so many Hindustani ragas that do not have an equivalent in Carnatic music.

We must accept that there are major differences between the Hindustani and Carnatic styles. Their ragas, their approach to elaboration, concert format, etc are all different. The number of sruthis in Hindustani music is usually figured to be over 60, while we usually state only 22. Hindustani musicians are generally not used to learning compositions that go into pages and pages. There are so many other differences.

North-South Jugalbhandhis only work if the two main artistes have many rehearsals and each are willing to learn aspects of the other style. Due to a number of reasons, inluding lack of time and perhaps egos, this rarely occurs and hence the resulting concert does justice to neither style.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 09 Jan 2008, 10:59

I agree with Mohan. While we express our displeasure about the musician's action, let us not bring this into a Carnatic vs Hindusthani discussion.

>The number of sruthis in Hindustani music is usually figured to be over 60, while we usually state only 22.

Though off topic, just to provide a view point on this... I am reading some old books on this topic. The > 60 seems to be just a case of 22 times 3 octaves. Even this 22 is questionable as practised today whether it is CM or HM which is another matter for another thread.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 09 Jan 2008, 11:11

I agree with VK. Let us not get into CM versus HM. I have seen wondeful Jugalbandhis of BMK with Bhimsen Joshi.

Notwithstanding the above , I wonder if the flautist would have had the guts to raise such an issue with an artist of BMK's stature , who would definitely have shown Ronu his "level" and protected the Ghatam artist.

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 09 Jan 2008, 14:41

Quite unfortunate...I don't like generalities either but one has been witness to too many such instances to resist the temptation. Besides Hariprasad, Jasraj is another gasbag that deserves a puncture or two...I've seen Sultan Khan mocking the way Carnatic Musicians keep taalam...Of course there are exceptions - Ashwini Bhide was disarmingly self-deprecatory in the Jugalbandi organized by Carnatica...and CM is not without boorish musicians either...but "in general" carnatic musicians are far more level-headed...such a thing can hardly be imagined in a CM concert where even a shorter than usual tani sends eyebrows shooting up!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 09 Jan 2008, 15:00

Yes, Mohan is right. One may like it or not, but it makes no sense to say that some fusion or jugalbandi program should not happen because one or another party is not able or familiar with some particular aspect.

What we are dealing with here is a question of courtesy and professionalism. I'm sure that there are failures in these areas even on the purely carnatic platform, but it seems to be more than coincidence that quite a few of us have experience of it happening when Hindustani musicians are involved.

Had I been there, I might have had reason to sympathise with HPC re the announcements; they are a largely unnecessary distraction, and I'm surprised that our own musicians do not complain at them. I suppose they wish to not bite the hand that feeds them!

I do not go to this particular musician's concerts any more. I have seen him play several times. On the last occasion, he was billed to have a mridangist play with him as well as tabla. This did not happen. As I knew the director of the concerned institute I did complained about this and was given some excuse, but, through backstage contacts I know that HPC simply kept the guy off the stage. As that had been my reason for attending, I now vote with my feet. Doesn't do any good, of course, plenty of people will be ready to fill the seat I might have sat in.

Similarly, with the very notable exception of Zakir Hussein, few tabla players seem to have the least idea about the carnatic tani format, and many seem to regard everybody else's contributions as mere warm-ups for their extended solo performances.

Perhaps, in fact, probably, nobody explained. Nobody felt it their place to tell the great guy from the north, this is what we do, this is your place in it. Maybe some tabla players have been left wishing someone had explained!

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 09 Jan 2008, 15:15

With all the talk i heard about the arrogance of HM musicians, i was in for a pleasant surprise when i went to hear the dhrupad concert of Gundecha brothers.
They were humility personified on stage and spoke with so much reverence to the audience.
when the chief guest came on to the stage to honour them, both of them stood up and received the garlands. I have never scene such a thing in any of the CM concerts even.

I think it all boils down to the 'samskaaram' of the individual.

santoshi · Post by **santoshi** » 09 Jan 2008, 17:13

I was present at the Brahma Gana Sabha Concert. Yes, the incident just happened too soon. The H musician asked the ghatam artiste to leave and he just meekly left. What irked me was that he did not even stop to consult his CM counterparts who were seated with him on stage. I was left wondering if he would have behaved in the same fashion if the CM artiste was a male. Is this gender bias ? Was he â€œobedientâ€

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 09 Jan 2008, 17:18

That is very very surprising.

Did XXX ask YYY to leave the stage during or before a Carnatic Concert or a Jugalbandhi? Where you present to witness this happening or is this just what you heard from someone else?

rajuvenkataraman · Post by **rajuvenkataraman** » 09 Jan 2008, 17:33

Hi Cienu

`Notwithstanding the above , I wonder if the flautist would have had the guts to raise such an issue with an artist of BMK's stature , who would definitely have shown Ronu his "level" and protected the Ghatam artist".

I also wonder if the flautist would have had the guts to raise such an issue with an artist of the stature or calibre of the Great Ghatam Maestro Sri Vikku Vinayakram who has taken the Ghatam to great heights.

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 09 Jan 2008, 20:05

Why the audience did not react ?
Even if one of the members of the audience would have walked up and told the flautist that the way the flautist had done this was wrong and so he was walking out in protest it would have sent a clear message.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 09 Jan 2008, 20:29

I think it is wrong to equate Ronu Majumdar with Hindustani artists in general.

Maybe many of the prominent artists are condescending because of their stature, or maybe because they want to dictate things to the accompanists, or whatever.

Maybe RM thought his flute doesnt go well with the ghatam. There could be 'n' number of reasons for his wrong act.

To make it a HM vs CM issue appears shortsighted.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Jan 2008, 20:37

It does not shock me .Jugalbandis are meticulously planned performances and a second rhythmic instrument could have been disconcerting for the flautist.What is wrong if he is sincere to his trade and objects to the ghatam accompanying him (which was not in his plans in any case) and still offers him a chance to keep the thalam by hand.Is it not a fine gesture.
Prasanna may have been distressed .
One does get distressed by straying into places we are not supposed to , but that does not mean he has to be accomodated.
What would we all say if they had botched up the concert , because of this intrusion.?

Obviously there must have been a technical reason to his reaction.Why should we jump to conclusions and generalise.The fact that Ronu is a very prominent artist offering himself for jugalbandis on a scale more than others , should be good enough for us to judge his attitude towards CM.
I think we are all making a mountain of a simple Pot.

vageyakara · Post by **vageyakara** » 09 Jan 2008, 20:43

Hallo srkris,
"All are equal theory" should be professed by our HM fraternity and either purposeful or inadvertant derisive attitude by either side does not construe to be a FORESIGHTED act.After all artists are the most sensitive sort of people..

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 09 Jan 2008, 21:00

coolkarni wrote:What is wrong if he is sincere to his trade and objects to the ghatam accompanying him (which was not in his plans in any case) and still offers him a chance to keep the thalam by hand.Is it not a fine gesture.

I have heard very few jugalbandis, not qualified to pass much of technical judgement .Usually I see there are seperate percussion accompanists for both HM and CM . I am assuming for HM , there would be a seperate tabla player , and in that case both the mridangists and ghatam artist will not play when RM is blowing the flute. Can somebody confirm if there was a tabla artist too in this concert??

Assuming there are no other percussionists other than mridangam and ghatam , with the concert already in progress possibly RM could have asked the ghatam artist to play minimally and play softly.

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 09 Jan 2008, 21:03

Just imagine if such an incident happening in Pune or Kolkata,where a Carnatic Musician, participating in a Jugalbandhi, asks the Sarangi player to leave. Even if it was the stature of BMK, the audience would have protested then and there & made the neccessary amends.

The problem with us, south indians is that we boast internally, that CM is ntimes greater than HM and there is no Reetigowlai or Sahana within ourselves, but on certain important occasions like these, we become silent spectators and allow ourselves to be disrespected. This is definitely not an CM vs. HM issue. As Mohan rightly pointed out, each form has its own pros and cons, which is true with other forms of classical music.

The issue here is about the attitude of HM musicians and CM musicians. In this incident, someone went to the extent of framing this as an sexist issue and putting the blame on the Ghatam Vidwan. First of all, if he had such intentions, he wouldn't have agreed to perform for women. Uppapakkavadyas are still a minority and they are not treated equally as the mrudangam vidwan. The mrudangam vidwan, many a time feels that his time, attention and appreciation gets divided in the presence of a ghatam or kanjira vidwan. So, the blame should be distributed evenly between the violin sisters and the mrudangam vidwan, whoevere he was!!

These are occasions that test the character of artists and the rasikas. IMO, all failed in this test. Ronu failed respecting a fellow musician and exposed his character. Lalita and Nandini failed to intervene & fight for the cause of their team mate and the same goes to the Mrudangam vidwan. The organizers too had a mjor role in this fiasco, but their interests are in the revenue that is being generated not the respect of artists.The rasikas were silent spectators to this unfortunate incident. Instead of doing a postmortem analysis & discussions, it would have made a huge difference, if the original poster had raised his/her voice in the concert.

My sympathies for the ghatam vidwan and hope he never accompanies these sisters ever again!!!!

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 09 Jan 2008, 21:06

Are we all so old enough to forget the experience of a very famous left handed Mridangam player not being given his due share of performances simply because some violinists did not want to sit to the right of the vocalist.
Was it not Chembai who "persuaded" the violinists to accomodate Pazhani ?

We wont get anywhere , if this is going to debated as a HM-CM debate.Let us remember Elaenor Roosevelt's famous words :
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent..
Are we all not giving such consent as a group ?

Or atleast the cartoon which shows a psychitarist telling a patient after listening to his story :
Maybe you dont have an Inferiority Complex.Maybe you are inferior.

Jugalbandis are best served by crossover rasikas who are willing to test the other side of the fence- albeit for a short duration though.And should be willing to dig a bit deeper into the scheme of things.
Most of the jugalbandis albums of ronu that I have heard do not incorporate the usual share of laya gimmickry that fill up nearly half of the duration.They are intense experiences.His classic album with BMK is a good example.

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 09 Jan 2008, 21:15

ckji,

It makes perfect sense to look at the incident from an external perspective. But, there is always a way to do it. Did Ronu not know earlier that there would be Ghatam accompaniment for the Jugalbandhi. Usually musicians are extremely careful and cautious to know about the accompanying artists and definitely for an HM musician playing in Chennai, he would have made it sure. If he didn't then that is his problem.

As a performing artist, do you realize how much of an insult it is, to be asked not to perform in a public gathering. Are you saying that the HM musicians would be willing to swallow a bit of disrespect for the cause of music, if they or their counterparts were insulted in a public gathering. The empthaical interpretations are nice to read and analyze, but dosen't work, if only one side has to do it all the time. It should come both ways!!!

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 09 Jan 2008, 21:17

I tend to agree with the views of Coolkarni. Let us not jump to conclusions without knowing all the facts. Every artiste will try to present his art in the best format which he feels right and he cannot be questioned for that. Obviously the ghatam was not invited by the HM artiste and he may have felt insecure or felt that it will be a distraction for him. Perhaps the way he addressed the issue may be 'crude' but then 'good manners' are not necessarily a part of musical training of many including a number of CM artistes. There have been umpteen occasions where the main CM artistes have been rude to the accompanists and this is no exception except that there may be a legitimate reason for his behaviour.

kssuresh · Post by **kssuresh** » 09 Jan 2008, 21:23

cienu wrote:I wonder if the flautist would have had the guts to raise such an issue with an artist of BMK's stature.

Or for that matter, with a ghatam artiste of the stature of Vikku Vinayakram.

Suresh

kssuresh · Post by **kssuresh** » 09 Jan 2008, 21:29

rajuvenkataraman wrote:Hi Cienu

I also wonder if the flautist would have had the guts to raise such an issue with an artist of the stature or calibre of the Great Ghatam Maestro Sri Vikku Vinayakram who has taken the Ghatam to great heights.

My my! I made my above post without seeing this!

Suresh

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 09 Jan 2008, 21:38

A highly professional musician (at least in fame and fortune) behaved in a most unprofessional manner. Let us not get regional about it. As Humdinger said, it all boils down to the samskAram of an individual. Whether a northerner or a southerner, one has to conduct oneself not only professionally but with courtesy. This incident better be a lesson to jugalbandi organizers AND participants: that they make sure that the musicians who play with them know the features of a concert of the other kind and discuss the inclusion or exclusion of whichever instrument, before hand; also plan the concert in a way that all are given appropriate time to play. I am saying this because even if you are not asked to get up and go away, it is still bad for a musician to sit there through the concert, not having a chance to play. I bet even if he were paid for his non-performance, the ghatam artiste would have felt demeaned and humiliated at that juncture.
What can be done about what has happened? Fellow artistes calling up the player and expressing their sympathy, sabha organizers booking him for a forthcoming concert, and above all, the said star apologizing to the ghatam vidwan.
I think we should not bring in a regional or sexist point of view into this...

kssuresh · Post by **kssuresh** » 09 Jan 2008, 21:46

coolkarni wrote:It does not shock me .Jugalbandis are meticulously planned performances and a second rhythmic instrument could have been disconcerting for the flautist.What is wrong if he is sincere to his trade and objects to the ghatam accompanying him (which was not in his plans in any case) and still offers him a chance to keep the thalam by hand.Is it not a fine gesture.

I am sorry Coolji, I find it difficult to agree with your latter observation. As I see it, the ghatam artiste was included in the original scheme of things, but was later dropped to his surprise at the instance of RM (doesn't matter for what reason). The right time to drop him would have been the beginning of the concert and not mid-way; or at least he must have been told before-hand that he would have to leave mid-point. To tell him off this way, if it did happen like that, is certainly indefensible. Still offering him "a chance to keep the thalam"? How is that a fine gesture to a concert player?!

Suresh

vijay · Post by **vijay** » 09 Jan 2008, 23:51

Let me clarify my stand further - it is not about CM versus HM...it is about the arroagance of certain HM musicians who have been elevated, thanks to a combination of state patronage and gimmicks aimed at the gallery, to a status far higher than their music really warrants...I am sure the "unsung" majority of Hindustani musicians are decent human beings and I, for one, try not to fall for linguistic/racist/casteist/sexist caricatures...

I am not sure what really happened in this instance and perhaps, as Coolji, suggests there may be a good reason for it. If it was discussed/agreed beforehand, the whole thing is quite unexceptionable but not otherwise...

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Jan 2008, 02:12

If the artistic lineup is not accpetable, for whatever reason, that is a matter to be discussed with the organisers and dealt with before the concert starts. Cool's comments about the aesthetic wishes of the musician may all be true, but he expressed them, it seems, in the wrong way at the wrong time.

I don't think that gender has anything at all to do with the issue: is this not an area in which our Northern cousins have been more enlightened for some time? Would a senior tabla player have refuse to accompany Parveen Sulatana? Gender here is a red herring.

I'm sure too, that the majority of Hindustani musicians are decent human beings (well said, Vijay) --- and I am even more certain than ever, on the basis of such concern shown here for the feelings of one musician, that we are a pretty decent binch of human beings too!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Jan 2008, 02:14

Cool's comments about the aesthetic wishes of the musician may all be true, but he expressed them, it seems, in the wrong way at the wrong time.

--- I don't mean cool expressed, I mean that on stage was the wrong time and place.

Sorry, badly-formed sentence

r s maniam · Post by **r s maniam** » 10 Jan 2008, 02:20

Coolkarni,
Being sincere to trade demands ethics. Neither Ronu nor lalitha /nandini had the courtesy to tell him backstage (as we learn from the description) is the point. Asking to keep the talam is a good gesture had prasanna been in the audience which is normally obliged.

No artiste expects to be accomodated. There is a specific role every artiste sincerely does. If u have specific definition for your TRADE make it clear backstage and not indulge in insulting.

And you call the ghatam artiste who had been contributing substantially earlier an INTRUTION. Ronu sounds decent!
may be the flute is also a simple bamboo and a violin is a mutilated wood piece and the mridangam and tabla are some noisy drums in your description
In your over enthusiasm to justify the flautist and the violin sisters you add further insult to a good artiste and his instrument
IMO jugalbandi itself is a mockery. We end up loosing track of both the systems out of total compromise by the artistes of both the systems. Nothing serious evolves out of such experimental entertainments.
For Ronu it is an opportunity to play for south indian audience and for the sisters to show their face in the season differently.
I agree with kadambam that Prasanna should not heed to the violin sisters anymore.

greatkrishna · Post by **greatkrishna** » 10 Jan 2008, 03:49

"Most of the jugalbandis albums of ronu that I have heard do not incorporate the usual share of laya gimmickry that fill up nearly half of the duration"

CKji, surely you can not justify RM's dismissal of the Ghatam vidwan with this statement. As mentioned by a previous contributor, planning is the key to JB's and if the planning was done without the ghatam vidwan's participation in mind, surely it is up to the CM artist Lalitha/Nandhini, Organiser and RM to make Prasanna aware this is the case prior to them ascending the stage.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Jan 2008, 04:55

Perhaps this is a silly question but our laya specialists can answer for my benefit. I would assume that if a mridangist can accompany how come a ghaTam artiste can't.. They are quite close in respect of laya patterns. Does it have something to do with the sound of the ghaTam? But then even jugalbandi is an experiment in fusion; isn't it?

kadambam · Post by **kadambam** » 10 Jan 2008, 05:18

Absolutely cmlover,

The role of uppapakkavadyams are meant to enhance the laya-sowkyam in the concert. I can understand if the a panchavadyam or Tavil or even a drums player in the stage. But Ghatam and Kanjira's are sadhus compared to the above mentioned giants. In fact for many of Fusion concerts, there is only Ghatam, not even mrudangam.

Many of us fail to realize that they take the same amout of abhyasam to perform in those instruments and more effort to practice it (physically, economically etc).

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 10 Jan 2008, 06:26

Well Well , I never intended to justify Ronu's actions - and we all seem to know so little about it- except that Prasanna was asked to go off-stage.
My only crib is that in the process of analysing such situations, we get emotional to the extent of raking up a North-South Divide.
Decades ago when Jasraj was a young lad accompanying his elder brother Maniram on the Tabla , he had an equally traumatic experience.It was a sammelan in the Pakisthan area of Undivided India , and a group of senior Vidwans were discussing a just concluded performance.The young Jasraj , who was sitting near his brother , tried to squeeze in a few thoughts when he was cut short by the seniormost vidwan there- "Shut up you guy.You Tabalji, what do you know about Vocal music."
Jasraj then implores with Maniram to teach him Vocal music to get over that shame
and The rest is History.

My reactions stem from the way the discussions have progressed here , and not because I like Ronu's Music or approve of such singular instances.And I dont like hair splitting exercises either , when my comments are prised open and words like intrusion are quoted out of context.And Iam convinced that there is indeed a great deal of bias about HM in this forum, and for silly reasons.
And I hope that the anandabhairavi challenge is not thrown open again.It is a bit like the challenge (that I saw in a recent film) that the dwarf takes with a tall stuntman on the subject of "Can you do whatever I do" and on acceptance, runs under the legs of the tall guy and challenges him to do the same.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Jan 2008, 07:57

...and the tall guy responded "probably not, but aren't you lucky that I didn't squash my thighs when you were under

A discussion of HM/CM attitudes is however legitimate without discussing personalities, but a discussion of North/South split is not healthy from POV of national unity!

humdinger · Post by **humdinger** » 10 Jan 2008, 16:42

My only crib is that in the process of analysing such situations, we get emotional to the extent of raking up a North-South Divide.

thats true. its like the english media that is talking about "National Honour" in the light of an incident involving couple of hot blooded sportsters who were razed up enough to lose the balance!

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 10 Jan 2008, 20:26

coolkarni wrote:Well Well , I never intended to justify Ronu's actions - and we all seem to know so little about it- except that Prasanna was asked to go off-stage.

Was he asked to go off-stage?

bagayanaiya · Post by **bagayanaiya** » 10 Jan 2008, 20:50

Just my 2 cents!

This is just a classic example of one artist "supposedly" insulting another! The person who has to take offence, is the ghatam artist and no one else! Does anybody even know if an apology was provided later for the "supposed" misbehaviour?

(I am using "supposed" because I do not doubt the happening of the event, but because it evokes different amount of anger and irritation amongst rasikas).

And to people's comments on can they sing a sahAna/Anandabhairavi/devagandhari.....there are umpteen HindustAni rAgas that are extremely difficult to handle.....try their bilAskhAni tODi, shrI, for example! This argument simply does not show anything!

If at all rasikas think that HindustAni musicians do not "respect" their carnatic counterparts "enough" then I think it is their duty to correct it with divine "ecstatic" music of the highest quality that shall melt their hearts and not vain arguments that "do they have a rAga as great as tODi? nAyaki?"!!! Remember, they can ask similar questions!

P.S: I mean to offend nobody.....just my 2 cents!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 10 Jan 2008, 22:07

I'm very much aware that I, along with many others who have commented here, did not witness the event.

But we have it from our colleagues a) that it happened and b) the concerned person was seen to be upset.

Could they have got it wrong? Well, they saw what they saw, and reported it to us.

So "Just another classic example" --- Whatever that means?

Hopefully not, because hopefully it does not happen all that often.

Artists of many disciplines are prone to emotion, difficulties, jealousies. Nobody claims our carnatic musicians are any different. I'm sure that our great keepers of history here could tell many a tale.

However, whatever politics, influence, criticism, prejudices or whatever may have gone on, leading up to what we see as the final result of a concert on stage, has gone on before the event --- not in public.

It is common, in these mixed concerts, to see some changes in those playing on stage at different points in the evening. That is not unusual --- but it should be pre-arranged.

If I enter a shop and the owner is having a row with his staff I do not feel like buying there. It belongs in the back office.

I do, however, agree with you that the 'we can do this; they can't do that' stuff, in this context, is irrelevant. I think you'll find that point has already been made and agreed.

So can I re-value your post at 1 cent?

Not meaning to offend anyone... of course

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 10 Jan 2008, 22:56

Since no answer has come in from Santoshi in response to my question , I request the moderators to remove the reference to Mridangam Vidwan XXX's alleged gender bias vis a vis Vidushi YYY . ( Ref posts # 17 and # 18 in this thread).

It is not right to tarnish someone's image unfairly.

This also seems to be the only post in this forum by Santoshi

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Jan 2008, 23:40

I have edited the names out since it borders on slander. The subject matter is worthy of discussion perhaps in a separate thread, but no names please !

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 10 Jan 2008, 23:54

Dermatologists tell us that the level of skin thickness is highly variable. However in the US tthe skin is quite sensitive aince there are pro bono lawyers who will make meat out of such public humiliations and one would think twice before indulging in such activities however 'famous' he be. I guess if there was a lawyer in the Rasika crowd who witnessed the event, he/she should follow-up in public interest so that it will be a fitting lesson for all future artistes North, South, East or West!

Sam Swaminathan · Post by **Sam Swaminathan** » 11 Jan 2008, 01:50

There has been a similar situation in a carnatic music concert too where an established vocalist, on his very first song, turned around and ordered the ghatam vidwan to stop playing. The elderly ghatam vidwan sat thru the concert with his hands on the instrument through out the concert, not playing one single sollu. At the end of the concert, the vocalist turned around and tried to offer some conciliatory words to the ghatam artist at which the artist used the choicest "gaalis" with in the ear shot of every body and cursed the vocalist badly. This incident was narrated to me by a senior musician who was present at the conert.

I have to agree though, in general our CM artists are polite, dignified and humble, some (in my mind) a little too much. While I cannot comment on the HM artists, I have certainly seen the ugly side of a famous HM flautist in one concert where he was supposed to play jugalbandhi with a famous CM violin maestro. Having agreed to play the jugalbandi, he later on refused to. So, the concert was divided into two halves, the first half being devoted to CM violin and the second half for the HM flautist. When the violin aritst was playing, this HM guy, sat in the green room with his nose in the air. When the HM artist started playing, our CM artist, sat in the front row and appreciated the great art of HM. So much for proper culture and up bringing.

Here again, we need to focus on the eccentricites of the artists and not the art itself.

cheers

sathayam · Post by **sathayam** » 11 Jan 2008, 05:49

I think it is was a concert of Nandhini Muthusamy with Ronu Majumdar. Where did Lalitha come in ???. It was not a Violin duet concert of the sisters, hence it is unfair to bring in the name of Lalitha. The post of Kadambam and RS Manian seem to have unnecessarily dragged her into this incident. I am refering to the threads #25, #36, #37. Referring to #46, I think it is fair that we should not tarnish the names of artistes. Should not the same principle be applied to Lalitha as well ? We Rasikas are not biased. I think these two posts should be removed from our forum which has the reputation of being neutral !!!!!